After Hours

Geek Trivia: Action-pact science fiction

What did the Clarke-Asimov Treaty stipulate between the two iconic sci-fi writers?

Ask someone what the Big Three refers to, and you'll get an interesting variety of answers. In 20th-century history, you're likely referring to the three heads of the World War II Allies: Joseph Stalin, Winston Churchill, and Franklin D. Roosevelt. In U.S. automotive circles, the term clearly means Ford, General Motors, and DaimlerChrysler.

In the realm of video game consoles, you're talking about Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo (insert PlayStation 3 joke here). Among science-fiction geeks, however, the Big Three can mean only one trio: Isaac Asimov, Arthur C. Clarke, and Robert A. Heinlein.

Collectively, these authors have won 18 Hugo Awards. Clarke has four, Heinlein sports six, and Asimov boasts eight—counting his two specially commissioned Hugo awards for Best All-Time Science Fiction Series (Foundation) and an award for his series of science articles in Fantasy & Science Fiction magazine. If the Hugos don't impress you, consider this: All three authors have science-fiction awards named in their honor.

From the early '60s to the mid '80s, this trio dominated literary science fiction, effectively defining an entire generation of the genre. The staying power of their collected works have helped Asimov, Clarke, and Heinlein remain three of the best-selling authors in the field—despite the fact that Heinlein passed away in 1988 and Asimov in 1992.

As is often the case, science fiction appeals to future scientists, who in turn honor their literary idols with scientific anecdotes. Clarke and Asimov both have asteroid namesakes, and Heinlein has his own crater on Mars. Clarke also gets special bragging rights for having his own species of dinosaur: Serendipaceratops arthurcclarkei.

With so much in common, it should come as no surprise that two of these three sci-fi giants were personal friends. Clarke and Asimov notably crossed paths several times during the heydays of their careers. As such, the two developed an amiable rivalry that became somewhat legendary within science-fiction fandom—so much so that it eventually led to the tongue-in-cheek Clarke-Asimov Treaty.

WHAT DID THE CLARKE-ASIMOV TREATY STIPULATE BETWEEN THE TWO ICONIC SCI-FI WRITERS?

What did the Clarke-Asimov Treaty stipulate between the two science-fiction icons—a tongue-in-cheek nod to the amiable rivalry they cultivated within sci-fi fandom?

The Clarke-Asimov Treaty—sometimes called the Asimov-Clarke Treaty or the Asimov-Clarke Treaty of Park Avenue—stated that each author would refer to the other as the world's greatest writer in his specialty—and refer to himself as merely second-best. Under these terms, Asimov would crown Clarke as the best science-fiction scribe ever, while Clarke would anoint Asimov as the greatest science writer. Of course, both could publicly crown himself a close second to the other.

The two reputedly created the pact during a shared cab ride that deposited the pair on New York City's Park Avenue—thus the extended title. The only major print acknowledgement that either Clarke or Asimov made of this treaty was in Clarke's dedication of his book Report on Planet Three, first published in 1972. In it, Clarke snarkily wrote:

"In accordance with the terms of the Clarke-Asimov treaty, the second-best science writer dedicates this book to the second-best science-fiction writer."

Beyond fiction, it's difficult to say which of the two was the better author of fact. Clarke gets serious points for helping dream up both the geostationary telecommunications satellite via a 1945 technical article and the much-anticipated concept of a space elevator, which Clarke popularized in his 1979 novel The Fountains of Paradise.

Meanwhile, Asimov brought general science to the masses with nearly 400 pop-science articles in the aforementioned Fantasy & Science Fiction magazine, as well as several science books, earning him a reputation as the "Great Explainer." While that probably doesn't settle the rivalry, it certain makes for some knowledgeable Geek Trivia.

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The Quibble of the Week

If you uncover a questionable fact or debatable aspect of this week's Geek Trivia, just post it in the discussion area of the article. Every week, yours truly will choose the best post from the assembled masses and discuss it in the next edition of Geek Trivia.

This week's quibble comes from the October 11 edition of Geek Trivia, "Skunk Works of art." TechRepublic member tyler.poland called me out for shaving a few years off the SR-71 Blackbird's service record.

"If the first flight occurred in 1966, this would suggest that the design of the SR-71 exceeds 40 years [as you claim] since presumably the design would be complete well in advance of the first flight. According to Wikipedia, the first flight was actually Dec. 22, 1964. In addition, preflight testing was completed July 30, 1962—suggesting that the design is 44+ years of age."

While I intended the age statement to be more general than specific, this member countered with additional trivia, so he earns the quibble space. Thanks for the info, and keep those quibbles coming.

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The Trivia Geek, also known as Jay Garmon, is a former advertising copywriter and Web developer who's duped TechRepublic into underwriting his affinity for movies, sci-fi, comic books, technology, and all things geekish or subcultural.

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Jay Garmon has a vast and terrifying knowledge of all things obscure, obtuse, and irrelevant. One day, he hopes to write science fiction, but for now he'll settle for something stranger -- amusing and abusing IT pros. Read his full profile. You can a...

39 comments
Tony K
Tony K

No quibble here, just a plug for the "new Heinlein novel", Variable Star, which was completed by Spider Robinson. Spider was good friends with Heinlein, and having just finished it I can say he was an excellent choice for the honor of finishing the authorship of that book. It's not Heinlein, but it's as Heinlein as you're going to get on this plane of existance. For fans, it's a must read.

cmdebo
cmdebo

It's "action-packed," not "action-pact."

dlauer
dlauer

Your wrote "Asimov would crown Clarke as the best science-fiction scribe ever, while Clarke would anoint Asimov as the greatest science writer." Should both of these say "science-fiction" or was this done on purpose? Thanks

Bill Ward
Bill Ward

While many have pointed to Clarke's invention of Geostationary Satelites, ALL three of these greats were inventors in their own right. Robert Heinlein is well known to have helped to invent the iconic Waterbed, and be one of it's earliest proponents. Isaac Asimov invented a concept that is kicked around nearly as much as the Space Elevator, in an F&SF article name "Sword of Damocles" for a anti-asteroid missile defense shield that is occasionally discussed; he would later write (in a different F&SF article, a few short years before his death) that it was one of his singularly best ideas, as it was the only one he ever had that could potentially save the entire human race. BTW, I'm not willing to give Clarke ANY credit on the Space Elevator except as it's great popularizer; I had never even heard of Fountains of Paradise when I came up with the idea independently in 1981 (yes, I've read it a few times since then); strangely, I came up with the idea while contemplating orbital periods (much as Clarke had done with Geosynchronous satelites) meaning Clarke should have seen the obvious as far back as 1945. Alas, both Clarke and I were too late, as the elevator was conceptualized by a Russian in the early 1960s (prior to my birth). Unfortunately, I cannot remember the Russian's name; I'm sure someone here will supply it. [Edit Addendum, to show MY mistakes] According to Wikipedia, the great Russian Space Pioneer Konstantin Tsiolkovsky is the person who came up with a proto-concept; his concept technically even includes Clarke's Geosynchronous satellites. However, the scientist that I was refering to was Yuri N. Artsutanov, who came up with the idea not in the early 1960s, but in 1957. So, I quibble with my quibble.

gfisher
gfisher

While the friendship between Clarke and Asimov is fairly well known, Clarke also speaks warmly in one of his books of the week he spent as the guest of "Bob and Ginny" Heinlein at their home in Colorado Springs in 1952. Whether this friendship continued or developed I do not know, but Clarke some years later said of Heinlein that "It is little exaggeration to say that his influence has been comparable to that of Wells, who also planted seeds that many later writers were happy to harvest."

gfisher
gfisher

In my copy of Arthur Clarke's 1966 anthology "Time Probe" (hardcover, published by Delacorte) Clarke begins his introduction to Heinlein's "Not Final!" thus: "In accordance with my half of the Clarke-Asimov Treaty, concluded verbally some years ago in a cab proceeding down Park Avenue, I hereby declare that Isaac Asimov, Esquire, is (a) the best science writer and (b) the second-best science-fiction writer in the world."

gfisher
gfisher

. . . let me suggest Paul Malmont's excellent "The Chinatown Death Cloud Peril," which includes a significant cameo appearance by ... Robert Heinlein! (This really IS a fun book, especially for those of us who watched modern science fiction grow up from its roots in the pulps. Malmont exquisitely opens that world to his readers, presenting a story which skillfully weaves together the publishers, writers and artists, historical events and fictional characters of that era and genre. 2006, Simon & Schuster.) Added 11/03/06: I first heard of the book through an interview on IT Conversations (http://www.itconversations.com/shows/detail745.html) in which the author gives a little background on some of the pulp writers who appear in the book. The author himself reads the first chapter of the book on KQED's wonderful "Writer's Block" program (http://www.kqed.org/arts/writersblock/episode.jsp?id=9321).

Johnny Bee
Johnny Bee

If the title was meant literally then you would be correct, however, the title is being used as a literary device called foreshadowing. As such it is a reference to the treaty, or "pact", between Asmiov and Clarke. Funny thing is, anyone who has read Heinlein, Asimov, and/or Clarke probably would not need that explained. Sorry, for sounding sarcastic, but if you're going to correct someone, you pretty much leave yourself wide open to these kinds of responses. Just ask Gore about his potato spelling bee faux pas.

MrHForrd
MrHForrd

Dude, it's a PUN. Look it up...

Bill Ward
Bill Ward

Both Asimov and Clarke were great SCIENCE writers as well as Science Fiction writers; in fact, from the mid 1950s until just a few short months before his passing, Asimov was probably the greatest Science WRITER in the world, in that he made plain and easy sometimes difficult concepts while jumping from topic to topic. In many ways, he was the first Blogger, using his Science articles from F&SF as his blog. For just over twenty years (very late 1950s through the very early 1980s), in fact, Asimov RARELY wrote any Science Fiction (though what he did write was uniformly excellent; his most famous Science Fiction Novels during that era earned major awards, The Gods Themselves and Fantastic Voyage being the two most notable during that period). Clarke, too, is an excellent Science writer, though not nearly having the volume of Asimov (but then, as Asimov once said, who does???)

gfisher
gfisher

>> "I had never even heard of Fountains of Paradise when I came up with the idea independently in 1981 . . ." Bill, this is a good example of the Intuitive Ripple Effect, the impact a truly great idea can have across the barriers of space and time. Each of us has experienced sudden flashes of intuition, revelations of understanding which could change the world, only to find that "our" idea surfaced at some earlier time in the mind of some other person. What really happens, of course, is that the brilliance of our invention creates "ripples" in the continuum to which some other person, placed in a more convenient position and era for popularizing our idea, intuitively responds. By custom and convention we typically permit the earlier promoter of our ideas to accept the accolades our superior intelligence has earned, since it would be difficult at best to collect praise or payment for something which actually appeared on the scene years or even centuries earlier, but it's entirely permissible to bask in the private satisfaction of knowing your idea for the light bulb or differential calculus crossed the temporal void to bring about a better world not only for yourself but for some of your ancestors. (Deja vu, by the way, describes exactly the same phenomenon when we respond to our OWN future thoughts. What more proof could we ask of the reality of this effect?) Well, I could go on forever but I've got to get back to this idea I've been working on for a while, a rotation of the inclined plane upon itself to form what I think I might call . . . the wheel.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

Nope, Kim Stanley Robinson is better at hard science. Niven, Heinlein, Herbert much better story tellers. For a great story teller and some extremely good science, (she tends to opt more for the fuzzy side, impact of science and opposed to wires and stuff), got to be CJ Cherryh.

joethejet
joethejet

A question for you all. I think my 14 year old son would like these types of books, but I don't think he's ever read one. Do you have a recommendation of the "best" one to start with? Thanks, Jet

Round One from VA
Round One from VA

Asimov once wrote that one of the fun things about writing science fiction was predicting things about the future. An example he gave was his prediction about LEDs (light emitting diodes). He was particularly pleased with himself for getting the color (red) of the first ones correct.

Tony K
Tony K

I've never heard of it, but I'll add it to my wishlist.

fords
fords

Um, Heinlein and Asimov were LONG time friends, so much so that at the start of WWII, Heinlein was hired by the Navy for a research job (he was an Annapolis graduate, after all, invalided out due to T.B.) and he had shavetail LT. Asimov shanghied to work with him at the Philadelphia Naval Yard. IIRC, he also got Lester Del Ray, too.

JamesRL
JamesRL

It was not Gore who spelled potatoe. It was Dan Quayle. By the way it was an acceptable spelling over a century ago. James

Jay Garmon
Jay Garmon

I tripped up initially and almost made the same mistake as the quibbler (this is what happens when I rush writing to hit deadlines). My thankless editor, Jenna, caught this misstep and corrected it. Any appearance that I know what I'm talking about is directly attributed to her.

Bill Ward
Bill Ward

You've got to know me in real life... because I independently (while bored one day in 1975 at age 9) invented the lightbulb, a perpetual motion device using magnets (yes, I did figure out the flaw quickly, but I kept the magnets as a sovenier of all this), the flashlight (with the lightbulb...) and the electric coil heating element. I was very proud of the lightbulb (still am... mine was nearly practical from the get go... Edison took how long to figure it out? Mine never did burn out, it just exhausted the 9 volt battery I was using) for the first 10 minutes, until I realized that was how the lightbulb must work (I can't say I'd ever seen a non-frosted bulb to that point). I still can't believe my Science Teacher only gave me an A- for the course (yes, it was "Bored one day in Science Class"). Maybe it was because the Heating Coil could heat well, but didn't have a good off switch other than a Single Pole switch? And I showed it was hot by igniting a piece of paper against it? Of course, Edison didn't invent the lightbulb, either, just the first PRACTICAL one that could be commercialized. Joseph Henry invented the lightbulb in the 1840s. Now, that first computer that I designed and had half built by 13.... of course, I used a "Modern" Computer Design and Theory book to show me some of the ideas for doing the Core Memory, the Integer Adder, etc. And I never could figure out some of the electronics to do complex mathmatics (Calculas) but then again, I was having to seriously crack books for the the processor.

tjsobieski
tjsobieski

Give him a copy ofDoor Into Summer It was my first hard sf book and just appealed to my pre-teen/teen self. Hell, I still like it.

Round One from VA
Round One from VA

If you are looking for a few good books to get your son interested in science fiction, I would recommend Robert Heinlein. His books dwelled more on social stuff and not so much on the hardcore science end of science fiction. In particular, Starship Troopers is a good action book for a kid to read. On the other hand, they just made a great movie out of I, Robot by Asimov, which could work out well in getting him to read the book. Heinlein has a bunch of books that I think would appeal to younger readers. I always liked The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. There are many others.

gfisher
gfisher

Jet, not to disagree with Jay but to add to his suggestions, you might want to consider a science fiction anthology for your son. These usually present stories from a variety of authors, which helps avoid problems for readers who just don't "take" to a particular author's style. Because the stories are short and varied, it's more likely your son will find at least one writer, style or theme which captures his interest. It's also possible your son would enjoy one of the science fiction periodicals now on the market; going back to the top of this thread, Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine is one of the best and is available in any good bookstore. The magazines have the advantage of being current, while sharing the variety of an anthology. However, magazines tend also to offer more "experimental," untried stories than the (usually) well-proven work found in most anthologies. In any case, either has a good chance of touching some interest with which your son can identify.

Jay Garmon
Jay Garmon

...is a tough one. Really a question of taste, and his familiarity with the genre (some current sci-fi is definitely NOT starter material, simply because it assumes you already know a lot about how sci-fi works). It's also like asking what one movie would I pick if I was trying to convince someone that movies were worth wtaching. Still, here's where I'd point you: Foundation - Isaac Asimov http://www.amazon.com/Foundation-Novels-Paperback-Isaac-Asimov/dp/0553293354/ref=cm_sylt_fullview_prod_30/002-7940128-7143236/002-7940128-7143236 Stranger in a Strange Land - Robert A. Heinlein http://www.amazon.com/Stranger-Strange-Land-Robert-Heinlein/dp/0441790348/sr=8-1/qid=1163443318/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-7940128-7143236?ie=UTF8&s=books Rendezvous with Rama - Arthur C. Clarke http://www.amazon.com/Rendezvous-Rama-Arthur-C-Clarke/dp/0553287893/sr=1-1/qid=1163443551/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-7940128-7143236?ie=UTF8&s=books

Johnny Bee
Johnny Bee

Make a small public blunder and you leave yourself wide open. LOL.

caritah
caritah

but you're right. It should have been CUE card.

gfisher
gfisher

It was probably a queue card, considering how many newspeople were lined up to make it a big deal.

caritah
caritah

he was reading from a que card that had been supplied by the school.

Jay Garmon
Jay Garmon

"The Norton Book of Science Fiction: North American SF 1960-1990" (Edited by Ursula K. LeGuin). This one is used as a textbook in many SF lit classes and workshops, including the Gotham Writers Workshop. http://www.amazon.com/Norton-Book-Science-Fiction-1960-1990/dp/0393972410/sr=8-1/qid=1163527826/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7940128-7143236?ie=UTF8&s=books "Masterpieces: The Best Science Fiction of the 20th Century" (Edited by Orson Scott Card) http://www.amazon.com/Masterpieces-Best-Science-Fiction-Century/dp/0441011330/ref=pd_sim_b_2/002-7940128-7143236 "The Science Fiction Hall of Fame, Volume I: The Greatest Science Fiction Stories of All Time, Chosen by the Members of the Science Fiction Writers of America" (Edited by Robert Silverberg) http://www.amazon.com/Science-Fiction-Hall-Fame-Greatest/dp/0765305364/sr=1-2/qid=1163527978/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-7940128-7143236?ie=UTF8&s=books "The Science Fiction Hall of Fame, Volume Two A: The Greatest Science Fiction Novellas of All Time Chosen by the Members of The Science Fiction Writers of America" (Edited by Ben Bova) http://www.amazon.com/Science-Fiction-Hall-Fame-Two/dp/0765305348/ref=pd_sim_b_1/002-7940128-7143236

gfisher
gfisher

On reflection I'd have to agree with you, Jay. I mentioned that the magazines are more "experimental" but failed to consider what that meant in the context of a 14 year old. By and large the mags are usually OK, but sometimes they'll drop a zinger without warning. I read F&SF and can attest they stray into some wild territory from time to time, but their committment to the fantasy genre was also a factor in not mentioning them. Great discussion!

joethejet
joethejet

Anthologies sound like a good option, the only thing is I'd like to find one that has the "Big 3" writers in it. Maybe I'm a little strange, but I like my kids to read the "classics" feeling that they are classic for a reason! Plus when read them you get cultural references that others miss. Any suggestions on anthologies that would fit this bill? Thanks for all the input guys. This is great! Jet

Jay Garmon
Jay Garmon

I was an Asimov's magazine subscriber for a number of years--it was how I discovered Allen Steele's "Coyote" series and the thread of stories that would become Charles Stross' "Accelerando"--but I would consider elements of some of those stories far more age-inappropriate for 14-year-olds than "Stranger in a Strange Land" (Stross' work, which I LOVE, in particular). Analog magazine answers to a similar standard, which is by no means a criticism. These publications are just trying to reach a wide audience, and adults make up a larger demographic than kids (the dearth of kids interested in written sci-fi is a rant for another day). I can't speak for Fantasy & Science Fiction magazine, though I'd suspect the same is true there. I would agree that anthologies are the way to go, and there is some great young-adult (they don't call the juveniles anymore) science fiction, fantasy, and horror out there. The 'Escape from Earth' anthology I mentioned above (http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/004484.html) certainly meets the former requirement. ANd I've ehard some raqve recommendations for the YA works of Scott Westerfeld (http://www.scottwesterfeld.com/). For a general rundown on great Young Adult stuff of all genres, there are lists aplenty at the Young Adult Library Services Association (http://www.ala.org/ala/yalsa/yalsa.htm). This includes the Top 10 Young Adult Books of 2006 (http://www.ala.org/ala/yalsa/teenreading/teenstopten/06ttt.htm). There's more out there than Harry Potter, I promise.

tjsobieski
tjsobieski

Heinlein was my first also and maybe I was a bit precocious but if the father knows the book and can explain the plot to the son, I don't see anything wrong with that. Door into summer was my first and If that plot isn't f-d up with someone going forward into time to marry a little girl he loved in the past... I'm just sayin', ya know.

joethejet
joethejet

This great, I appreciate all the comments. It's very interesting reading all the comments. Trying to sort through them will be a challenge however! Speaking of Zaphod, I should probably have mentioned that he has LOVED the Hitchhiker books. Jet

JeffDeWitt
JeffDeWitt

Bill, good post but "grok" came from "Stranger in a strange land", not "The Moon is a Hash Mistress". Another good one for a 14 year old is "Orphans in the Sky", I've often wondered if Joe-Jim Gregory was the inspiration for Zaphod Beeblebrox . Jeff DeWitt

Jay Garmon
Jay Garmon

I read Stranger when I was 15, I think. It's not nearly so gratuitous as it sounds. But I would never presume to choose what's appropriate for someone else's child. If you want to go the more patently young-adult (YA) route, Heinlein has boatloads of those. Also, I came acorss this in my blog travels recently, which may be of some use to you: Escape From Earth, edited by Jack Dann and Gardner Dozois http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/004484.html It's got seven YA SF short stories by some pretty serious authors, including Orson Scott Card, Allen Steele, and Joe Haldeman. Great way to dip your toes in the water.

Bill Ward
Bill Ward

Jay, his son is 14... so just say "No" to Stranger in a Strange Land. Better, from a Heinlein perspective, perhaps even THE BEST of the Starter Books for SF would be Rocket Ship Galileo. It's somewhat dated, of course, since it's written for a late 1940s perspective (and it's supposed to be just five to ten years down the road... everyone in it coming out of WWII as a formative element) but it's a fantastic story, great pacing and plot, and well worth the time and investment of reading pleasure. Some others I might recommend as "Early" SF (but unfortunately, as well, all dated) Ad Astra - Sorry, can't remember who wrote it although I keep wanting to say Andre Norton, but it's the story of the (1980ish) first building of a Space Station (2001 style, based on Von Brauns early space station concepts) through to the first accidental and second (forced) landing on the moon. Unfortunately, this book may be VERY HARD to find, since Ad Astra is far too common a phrase to Google (bad title!) and has been used too recently for other books, even other SF books. There aren't many good Clarke Starter books... the best is probably 2001 (THE NOVEL, not the Movie; the difference is that the novel explains what you are seeing, and why, especially during the Star Child sequence at the end of the story (the experience with the Baby and the Old Man after Dave enters the Monolith at the end of the movie). The Man Who Sold the Moon (Heinlein). Actually, this is a short story and is part of the Future History series, but it's a great read, none-the-less. The Early Asimov (obvious). This is an Anthology of MOST of Asimov's first SF stories... while there are a few less stellar stories, some of them are just outstanding. The also introduce the next selection: I, Robot (Asimov) - Too many people can extol this collection for me to do justice to it. Have Space Suit, Will Travel (Heinlein) The John Calvins of the world, unite! Pebble in the Sky - Asimov. A psuedo-Foundation story, all the physics are WRONG (breathable O2 on a sterile world... yeah, right) and it doesn't fit in with the Foundation stories quite right because of a fundamental flaw in the background, but it IS set in the Early Empire phase timewise. The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress - Heinlein. This actually was required reading for my US and Virginia Government class in High School. I still miss Mike. Yes, there are some issues with (light) sexuality, including plural marriages, but from that book, TANSTAAFL and Grok entered our collective Geek Vocabulary. It's required reading for ALL future SF fans. BTW, I've always thought that the ending paragraph's question is what inspired "Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep?", the basis for Bladerunner, even though they are very different stories. [Edit] Somehow the last sentence of my post was put in with the Ad Astra book... the "Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep?" comment is DEFINITELY about The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

gfisher
gfisher

>> "...the chance to read all that great stuff again for the first time." Fill your shelves while you can, Jeff, and then wait for the Alzheimer's to kick in. :-) Seriously, though, those are great books; "The Man Who Sold The Moon" fits right in there too. Asimov's "I, Robot" stuff covers a lot of ground, while "A Fall of Moondust" is a good example of Clarke's longer work (I think Clarke's best writing is in his short stories and novellas, though).

JeffDeWitt
JeffDeWitt

Great book, but for a 14 year old? How about some of the great Heinlein juveniles such as "Have Space Suit Will Travel", "Podikane of Mars", "Red Planet", and "Glory Road". While it gets into some... funky alternative family arrangements "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is great too, and then there is his whole "Future History" series. I sort of wish I was a kid again and had the chance to read all that great stuff again for the first time. Jeff DeWitt

joethejet
joethejet

These look like a good place to start! Although, I have to say that the Heinlein book doesn't sound appropriate for a 14-year-old. The last thing a 14 year old boy needs to read about is "free sex"! Thanks again, Jet

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