Outsourcing

H1-B visas: Would lifting the cap really attract the 'brightest and best' to the US?

There needs to be a bigger discussion about whether H1-B visas are good for the tech industry and not just tech companies.

Former US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is baffled: perplexed at why people oppose lifting restrictions on the number of skilled foreign workers employed in the US.

Speaking at the 2014 VentureScape conference last week she said: "Forty percent of the startups in this area have one foreign founder. That says something about the power of attracting the best and brightest. And, I just don't get it when people want to make immigrants, somehow, the enemy."

Rice was discussing H1-B worker visas, which are used by companies to employ foreign workers in the US for up to six years. The visas are reserved for "specialized" roles - requiring a Bachelor's degree or higher - and while they are used to recruit for professions from biotechnology to medicine, are most commonly used by IT services firms. The base cap limits the number of workers approved for these visas to 65,000 each financial year, with a further 20,000 granted to those who have earned a master's degree of higher.

Rice believes this cap should be loosened. But her reduction of anti-H1-B sentiment to a desire to make immigrants "the enemy" flies in the face of genuine concern about how these visas are used by large companies.

More than 50 percent of the H-1Bs granted in the 2013 financial year went to offshore outsourcing firms like Cognizant, Infosys, Accenture, said Ron Hira, associate professor of public policy at the Rochester Institute of Technology.

Hira has been studying high skill immigration policy for more than a decade and has gathered data using FOI requests that points to H1-B workers being paid less on average than their American counterparts.

The figures show the median wage paid by offshoring firms to H1-B workers between the financial years 2010 and 2012 was between $54,000 and $69,000. In contrast wages for Computer Systems Analysts stood at around $82,000, he said.

And while evidence of how H1-B hiring affects the job prospects of domestic workers is hard to come by, Hira has collected figures that he says show IT services firms massively favouring H1-B workers when hiring in the US.

According to this data the offshore outsourcing firm Cognizant hired nearly 18,000 new H-1B workers between the financial years 2010 and 2012, a period when Hira said the firm took on very few new American workers.

The justification for turning to foreign workers to fill roles in the US is that these skills are not available domestically. But whether or not there is a skills shortage is also a matter of contention. Wage levels for IT workers have risen broadly in line with other professional groups, according to Hira, which is not what you would expect to see in an industry with pronounced talent shortfall.

And if foreign workers are truly filling a skills gap that can't be met domestically then, as Hira pointed out in his written testimony to a hearing at the US Senate, these non-US nationals should be paid more, not less, than their American counterparts.

"H-1B advocates have claimed H-1B workers they seek possess superior skills. If this is the case, then those workers should be paid at least the average wage," he wrote.

The best and the brightest

The idea that companies are hunting out the most talented individuals to work in the US was picked up by Rice, who evoked the phrase the "best and the brightest" to describe those granted H1-B visas.

But painting these individuals as exceptional, rather than degree-educated workers of the type available in the US, is questionable. Hira's FOI request data revealed the education levels of H1-B workers at the 20 companies hiring the largest number of H1-B workers between the 2010 and 2012 financial years. The figures show that in all these firms the majority of H1-B employees held no more than a Bachelor of Science (BS), and in the case of Cognizant, the largest employer of H1-B workers, four-fifth of workers were educated to BS-level. Cognizant declined to comment.

Rice also attempted to link the debate on H1-B's to attracting entrepreneurs to the US, mentioning that "forty percent of the startups in this area have one foreign founder".

But if Rice wants to encourage more foreign self-starters to the states there is scant evidence that lifting the cap on H1-B's will do so, said Hira.

"Foreign workers cannot self-sponsor - they require an employer to sponsor them. The work permit is controlled by the employer. This means that H-1Bs cannot start their own business and self-employ. The people who wish to see more foreigners become entrepreneurs in the US should be pushing for more green cards, not H-1Bs. "

And when it comes to firms sponsoring foreign workers for a green card to enable them to become permanent residents and set up a business, Hira said companies are generally not forthcoming.

"Firms do not sponsor their workers for green cards. For example, Accenture sponsored a mere one green card for every 500 H-1Bs it got in FY12." Accenture had not responded to a request for comment at the time of publication.

If the intention truly is to attract the most capable workers to the US then the answer is not to lift the cap on H1-B visa, but to put in place mechanisms to allow them to stay in the country, Hira said.

"We should be encouraging the "best and brightest" to come to the US and stay permanently. We should have some sensible public policy discussion about the ways in which to encourage would-be entrepreneurs to stay in the country but almost all of the public discussion has been fluff and rhetorical."

About

Nick Heath is chief reporter for TechRepublic UK. He writes about the technology that IT-decision makers need to know about, and the latest happenings in the European tech scene.

148 comments
ashwin2512
ashwin2512

THE H1B PROCESS NEEDS TO BE ENHANCED

H1b GoHome
H1b GoHome

so far, letting in hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of inept scab H1B's, had done nothing but destroy professions, lower wages, hurt our economy and help to further erode our middle-class. In addition, the H1B's are definitely not the "best and brightest".  So, letting in more job robbers is not going to make things better, only worse.

Time to end H1B now!!!

M Wagner
M Wagner

It seems to me that the problem is bigger than that.  Presumably, the H1-B Visa exists because the tech industry cannot find enough properly trained Americans to fill the needed positions.  If that is correct, then the cap ought to be tied to the number of "persistently unfilled" positions. 


The second problem though is more complex.  In other words, are these positions unfilled because there are not enough Americans qualified to fill these positions or could it be that those on H1-B visas are willing to work for less?  Americans must be prepared to compete in a global economy - especially in the tech sector. 


Thirdly, are American universities attracting enough American students to the tech sector or are those students being turned away in favor for foreign students who are willing (or whose governments are willing) to pay higher tuition than their American counterparts would have to pay? 

paula
paula

I had to leave IT after over 40 years because I was tired of being the only white female in a room otherwise full of Indians who were willing to move anywhere in the states at the drop of a hat and work for much less than I would have been making.  It was too sad.

Datawalla
Datawalla

The only thing lifting the cap on H1-B visas would do is allow the largest tech companies to continue to import cheap knowledge workers from abroad and treat them as a disposable commodity. Not only should the cap not be lifted, it should be tightened with a requirement that for every H1-B employee hired, an American citizen must be hired at the same or a higher salary grade. If the companies argue that they can't find the talent they need here, then they need to acknowledge that they are a part of this society and start working with high schools and universities to develop it!

Gisabun
Gisabun

Keeping a cap on H1-B visas should be kept but at the same time, a compatible salary for the foreign worker as domestic users in the position.

SkipWiley
SkipWiley

Truth be spoken, H1-B Visas are devices for large American companies to shamefully exploit foreign workers, most often students, into what is tacit  slavery.  They are grossly underpaid by American standards, and are offered no substantial benefits.  This is why Verizon, IBM, ATT, and a host of other companies use them. It is much cheaper for the company. These companies then bear no legal or moral obligations a short time later when the Visa expires.


At the other side of the equation, Americans spend on these company's products, but the American economy is being drained of the wages sent abroad. Less is paid in American social benefit systems, such as health care and Social Security. These systems were designed for pooled participation to remain viable. Allowing companies to forego their obligations to workers is bad for the worker and the economy.


Ms. Rice's logic has a gaping hole in stating that the overall benefit is to the American people.

And her history in support for war only speaks to her lack of concern for people from other lands.

H1-B slavery should be abolished.

bradass
bradass

It’s all about greedy corporations and slave labor. The talent is here locally. Corporate desire to increase the H1-B visa cap is 100% wholly about cheap labor – period. Technically they are not the “Best and the Brightest” there are just more of them, because their countries have affordable education and turn out these graduates to work abroad and bring the financial resources back to their homeland.

randolphsg
randolphsg

Based on the results Microsoft has gotten, I do not think we need more of these alleged geniuses to be imported.  As for Condoleezza Rice, is she not one of the liars about weapons of mass destruction being in Iraq?  And with her association with America's biggest failed war.  Why should we trust her, with her lousy track record?

stephenatBA
stephenatBA

we do not need any more H1-B visa's  For one that was used my Microsoft to get the cheapest and allow him to mold them. For 2 if we are going to be made in America then make in America using American people doing American jobs.  Anything less send it to another country.  There are several reasons why companies do not move over seas and import to here.  The only other reason for overseas is for companies to pay less taxes.  So think While Obama is raising yours to give to others corporations are keeping Billions of dollars tax free in overseas accounts.  Don't believe me you can always google to find it out start with google, Microsoft, apple just to see the billions of dollars overseas.

jk2001
jk2001

So what do you all think of the comprehensive immigration reform bill?  There's a huge piece in there about H1B.  Does it affect your opinion of the bill?

If you're on Facebook, you're always seeing the fwd.us ads - and they always mention the "Dreamers" but never mention that the real motivation for Facebook participating in the effort to push for CIR is to increase the number of H1Bs.  What do you think about that?

Likewise, what about Code.org, their previous ad campaign, which also included Bill Gates?

Aside from the IEEE, there's no large organization opposing H1B.  You have some small ones, like Bright Future Jobs, and FAIR taking opposing positions on the CIR, despite both opposing H1B.  AFL-CIO is basically opposed, but fully support the bill, and they're pretty quiet about not just that but the expansion of H2A and other guest worker programs.  It's probably because ag workers and IT workers are generally not organized into unions, while they have many members who need legalization.

Ed.Pilling
Ed.Pilling

When I hear Rice talking it is coming from the administration that got rid of H1B fees and increased the amount allowed into the country. Oh yes I forgot to mention they also had the highest unemployment rate since the depression.

johnschw
johnschw

About 18 years ago the privately owned company (electronics related) was bought out by a large international corporation.  They also bought two competitor companies and a similar facility in Europe.  They brought over an engineer from the overseas facility (not sure what type of visa) with the excuse was that they needed someone to interpret instructions.  This was the most visible part of the job, but the duties also included translating all the documentation and drawings into her native language.  This was a good indication of the intentions of the parent company!

After a couple of years, the parent company decided the purchased companies were not profitable enough, so they sold them to a third competitor.  The foreign engineer proceeded to translate all the documentation of this company also.  In the end, three companies were closed in the US and transferred to the facility in Europe.  The moral is:  Bringing a foreign worker over here may have a different motive than is readily apparent.    

Darian Ross
Darian Ross

There's more money to be made in the black hat hacker groups. Letting potential hackers and cyber-terrorist into the country just helps them even more

ChallengerTech
ChallengerTech

The H1B is open to manipulation and scams. I've seen teams of H1B's that have one SME and the others could not speak, type, write in English or code without being told, verbatim, what to do. They were placeholders...and not being paid what was reported. And good luck identifying these people's true identity...as along as it matched the H1B "on file", they were good. H1B is just a way for business to get cheap labor, and opening this up to MORE, will do nothing but further decimate the AMERICAN work force!
There are plenty of out of work Americans that could be filling these positions...many have been pushed out by rampant off-shoring and H1B's on-shore. I've seen Career programmers, change professions just to feed their families, because this happened to them! 


They are Killing America from the inside out...WAKE UP PEOPLE!

Mandolinface
Mandolinface

Henry Ford didn't use H1-B visas to hire anyone. He taught unemployed citizens to build cars.


How about this? For each H1-B visa, a company must hire and train two citizens in the same skill set. Depending on the skill, they could do this in-house or by sending the employees to college. 

Dick Starr
Dick Starr

There are plenty of older people who could fill a lot of these jobs. Corporations want cheap labor so they can line their own pockets!

econdataus
econdataus

I'm really tired of people like Condoleezza Rice who claim to be "baffled" and "perplexed" that others do not agree with them. I would have some respect for them if they admitted (as do I) that this is a difficult issue. Twenty years ago I had friends who were able to get into the computer industry without a technical degree. Those days are over and I know of nobody who is arguing that we can bring them back. But as can be seen from the graphs and tables at http://econdataus.com/svworkers.html , nearly half of software developers in Silicon Valley are not citizens. Hence, most of them are working at mid-level software jobs, not specialized jobs requiring unique skills. I don't know anyone who argues that a mid-level software job has a magical multiplying effect that creates jobs, at least not enough to make up for the American workers who are displaced. Finally, as explained in this article, those guest workers generally do not obtain green cards and become citizens.


There are a number of other issues which I address in an open letter that I've posted at http://econdataus.com/h1bletter.htm . So far, I have not heard anyone in Rice's camp even admit that these issues exist, much less address them. Instead they keep bring up the same straw man as Rice who states "I just don't get it when people want to make immigrants, somehow, the enemy." In fact, I have never bashed H-1B workers. They are likely not told anything about these controversies when they are hired. And, of course, anyone who becomes a citizen is entitled to the full rights of any other citizen. Most people I know feel the same way. If they see anyone as "the enemy", it tends to be those who are mentioned at about 3:33 into James McMurtry's song, "We can't make it here" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbWRfBZY-ng . In any event, I am willing to discuss these issues with anyone who is willing. But I have no use for those who can simply be "baffled" and "perplexed".


douglas_john_ledet
douglas_john_ledet

The US Attorney just filed charges against Chinese for industrial spying on US firms.  And you will not only invite foreign nationals behind your fire wall, you will paid them.  Please explain that to the Board when your trade secrets are shared thru out the world.

Patrick N. Smith
Patrick N. Smith

H1b holders should own their own paper irrespective job or engagement so they can change jobs at will

Calvin R Shumaker
Calvin R Shumaker

I think we need to close the skills gap by making the education to attain those skills more affordable.

AlisaK2000
AlisaK2000

I am not in favor in any way, shape or form of allowing foreigners to take US jobs.  I am an American for Americans ONLY.  Keep foreigners out and kill outsourcing completely.  I want ONLY US CITIZENS to get US jobs.  Screw the third world people.  Let their own governments spend money on infrastructure and industry to build up their own countries not at the expense of US CITIZENS!

nothalfbad
nothalfbad

There's already an unlimited US visa program to bring in the 'best and the brightest' in the tech world.  It's called the O-1A visa.  


H1B visas are for the worker bees of the tech world, and there are already plenty of worker bees in the US.  The H1B is open to manipulation and scams, all well documented in this thread.  H1B is just a way for business to get cheap labor, and this is a bald attempt to get more of the same.  


There is a cost for US protection and US infrastructure and that is to hire employees from the general US population.  If business wants to hire foreign labor by all means they should--in that foreign country. 

Oscar Ross Hay
Oscar Ross Hay

I guess none of you know the requirements to get an H1b visa, beside the fact that H1b holders have the same health care plans/requirements, social security, pension and anything else. H1b holders most of the time come with higher degrees and more certifications, like me that originally came having a Master degree, being also CCNP, MCSE, Security+, ITIL, VMWare and Red Hat. I am not saying to increase the cap because there a lot of capable people here but just clarifying the conditions that an H1b holder comes under.

nielsenn
nielsenn

The H1B process is badly broken and is a poor fit for IT.   Of course there should be stronger checks on companies to remove the bad actors.  Sadly the people who pay the heaviest price are professionals who want to come to the US, use their talents, abide by the laws, and contribute to society.   


Whether people like it or not, ALL markets, including labor markets, are global.  Our policies and processes need to catch up to reality or the next big trade gap will be (already is?) a talent gap.  

Ian Wru
Ian Wru

An earnest employer who really wants to find qualified American workers but who can't probably needs a better HR department and better search methods as well as better performance measurement criteria. Post unfilled jobs here and see what happens. Have realistic job descriptions, and consider that "perfect" is not always attainable or needed. You can spend years looking for perfection, as some here have stated they have.  Or, you can be smarter and hire someone less than perfect who will perform well.


If looking for a perfect match, assuming the criteria stated is precise and accurate, then you only need a 5th grader in HR (or a talent management system) to wait for alleged perfection.

tshw
tshw

STOP the H1B scams by these consulting companies!


This is coming from someone who went thru the H1B and green card application process some 15+ years ago.


It used to be that H1B visas were given to highly skilled workers like me who were paid WAY ABOVE average wages for our technical ability because our employers could not find anyone to fill these roles.


Now, the H1B visas are simply abused by greedy consulting groups and corporations who are just looking to maximize profit. These recent H1B workers are paid below average wages for having a specific skill without well-rounded computer science background or intelligence. These consulting companies use very detailed job descriptions to weed out American workers with solid computer science/IT backgrounds but lack a specific # of years of experience with a certain vendor software, while giving away the job opportunity to lower paid, less well-rounded workers who happened to have some vocational training in that particular software.


This is not to say that all H1B workers are bad now... it's just that most of them are a result of cost cutting measures from Fortune 500 companies' managers who outsource to these consulting companies which scam the system. I've been a consultant for a few of these companies and seen the productivity of these recent so called "skilled" H1B workers who's equivalent productivity is about 1/3 to 1/5 of a well-rounded engineer. Meanwhile there are so many laid off American workers with perfectly working brains who can be trained to do the job... if there weren't so much greed in corporate America.

Gregman2
Gregman2

This is all about driving down wages.  Ms. Rice is not an economist. Flooding the market here with high tech skilled labor simply gives hiring corps more leverage to pay less.

februarie02
februarie02

NO, NO NO!

THIS IS ONE REASON REPUBLICANS WILL LOSE ELECTION IN 2016.

BETTER WILL BE TO ADOPT AT LIST ONE OF THE FOREIGN METHODS OF ADUCATION AND IMPLEMENT IT IN USA.

PRAISE FOREIGN EDUCATION BUT DO NOT IM[PLEMENTED IN USA, WHAY?

sahaavik
sahaavik

Ron Hira's study findings must be correct, however, there is no evidence that US workers with relevant skills losing out to H1B immigrants in the job market.

H1b GoHome
H1b GoHome

@M Wagner  no, H1B exists today because American companies like operating in the U.S. with all the trappings that are paid for in large part my taxpayers, BUT those same companies would rather cheap H1B scabs over the citizens of this country.  Get it right, be smart, don't believe the H1B lies...and by the way, we have ZERO shortage of qualified technical candidates for the jobs, that's another huge propaganda lie perpetuated by companies...learn the facts

DoloresCruz
DoloresCruz

@M Wagner  I was an IT hiring manager throughout the last decade, and the notion that positions are going chronically unfilled due to skills shortage is pure myth.

M Wagner
M Wagner

@Datawalla  That only works if you have enough qualified Americans to fill vacant positions at the appropriate skill level.  it is like affirmative action ... all else being equal, the American (no matter the color - or gender -) should get the job ... but what do you do if the American demands more money than the foreign citizen?  Who decides what is "fair pay' for job XYZ with candidates with ABC credentials? 

randolphsg
randolphsg

@jk2001 I am against the immigration reform bill, mainly because I think it rewards law-breakers.

John80224
John80224

@jk2001 The senate bill is a mixed bag.  It sounds like it's pretty good, but I have much more faith in companies' ability to find loopholes than the government's ability to close them.  It's still lacking a meaningful fee and I doubt enforcement would be much better on the skilled side.  I like how it curtails offshoring's abuses, but not sure the provisions make up for the potential loopholes and increased numbers. 

mudpuppy1
mudpuppy1

@jk2001"Dreamers"? Talk about doublespeak. Criminals is more accurate. And, what they "need" is deportation.

M Wagner
M Wagner

@AlisaK2000 Foreigners take US jobs everyday.  Apple has not sold a Macintosh, an iPad, iPhone, or iPod made in American for YEARS! 


Why not?  Because if they did, you could not afford to buy them. 


This is true for almost all electronics firms.  Only one TV maker in the US - Vizio.  It is also true for almost all clothing manufacturers. 


Honda builds it cars in Ohio with Amercian labor.  Toyota builds its cars in Indiana with American labor.  GM builds its cars in Canada.  Chrysler builds its cars in Mexico. 


This is a complicated problem with no clear solutions. 

cloyd42
cloyd42

@AlisaK2000  Out of curiosity, what Native American tribe are you a member of? Otherwise, at some point your family was an immigrant family.

CannotBelieveIt
CannotBelieveIt

Oscar, when did you come here? Where did you come from? I have Canadian friends who had to actually prove that they were worth something, so I can see that point. I also have Indian friends who tell me they don't go through the same process at all. They basically just "sign up" and over they come! Yippee!!


I was booted out of a company at the age of 46 that basically consists of about 90% Indians in engineering at this time. Most of them are complete hacks. Whenever I tried to explain proper coding techniques, they argued with me like I was the moron. Then their Indian Director coolie decided I was a trouble maker, lined me up, and out the door I went! Sweet, yes?


Since I am now "old", it has been difficult to find a job. I went from living independently and saving for retirement to living at my cousin's house and hoping I can still retire someday.


Ironically enough, my cousin is half American Indian. Her tribe is considering opening a casino. Maybe she'll cut me in, yeah? It's about my only hope now.

blhelm
blhelm

OSCAR, that is complete BS.

CannotBelieveIt
CannotBelieveIt

@nielsenn Sorry, the labor markets are not truly global. Try applying for a job in Europe or even in India itself. They'll laugh their butts off. Sorry, we only hire citizens of the EU in Europe and only Indians get jobs in India. I'll go for the global labor market argument once this condition changes.

Steve Waechter
Steve Waechter

@Ian Wru

The function of HR in the last 10 or 15 years seems to be to keep everyone away, so you can't be sued for *not* hiring someone.  

It's a complete failure of that whole recruiting paradigm.  

Remember how it used to be?  

If a company needed someone they were eager to interview. 

No, no one wants to interview.  So even if you are indeed the "best and the brightest" it's much safer for them to hire only temps, and maybe if you check out for a few months offer a job. 

Or hire through the Indian consulting firms, and if it doesn't work out, just say "get out".  Most interviews are phone interviews nowadays.  Companies are mostly hiding.  The only exception is if you know someone. Then you can get in. 

I've seen "masters degree required, PhD desired" and the job pays $40 or $50k. As if!  You should be working for $40,000 with a PhD.  Puleez. 

blhelm
blhelm

@tshw thank you.  I've been trying to say this for the past 10+ years.

CannotBelieveIt
CannotBelieveIt

@februarie02 Actually, it is the Democrats who will lose in 2016 because Obummer doesn't understand that the American citizens who can't find jobs can actually still vote. He is literally tanking his Party right now.


As far as education goes, did MIT, CalTech, et al suddenly go dim? It is true that Americans don't always score high in Math and Science. It is also true that those who do excel because they go to top quality universities. We really don't need to change the higher education system, but we could use some work in the lower grades. At this point, though, I've seen plenty of research that indicates that our universities are churning out plenty of American engineers to fill these entry level jobs.


Now, I've also seen research that shows American education is pretty high up in the ability to teach creative problem-solving. It is not as high as some other countries, but we do still have that in our favor. India, however, was not even on the list of the top 50. Yes, they can learn to regurgitate. But, can you apply that knowledge to invent something new and extraordinary? Doesn't seem like that's the case.


I've also read research from an Indian web site that criticizes the degree factories for charging exorbitant prices for education, yet don't even require the students to program or implement a functional, running application. And these are our highly-skilled workers? We're all being ripped off, on both sides of the pond!

EdG1955
EdG1955

@februarie02      If USA education is so bad, why do so many foreign students come here for education?

H1b GoHome
H1b GoHome

@sahaavik  you must be smoking PCP - or stupid. There is evidence everywhere, and I've seen it with my own eyes multiple times. Google "this worker had to train his H1B replacement"...enough with your pro-H1B crap lies

vandalii
vandalii

@sahaavik Interesting statement.  A lot of newly-minted college grads out there came back to live in parents' houses this year because they weren't hired.  Could be they weren't up to snuff, maybe.


Sure seems like hiring someone from another country at a lower wage might just impede that US Citizen STEM graduate from getting the job.  Maybe some of these foreign students graduating from US Universities should go back home to bolster their home country's high-tech rather than displace the homegrown graduates.  Not xenophobic, just sayin' thought part of the value of foreigners in the US Universities was to raise the home country's ability to compete.  Kinda defeats that purpose.  And let's be honest; we know these students aren't interested in "going home", they're worried they can't stay in US.

EdG1955
EdG1955

@sahaavik      Where would one find such evidence? The HR department of tech companies? Yeah, sure, they will self-report that they are favoring H-1B immigrants over US workers. Because they are so honest about everything, right?

John80224
John80224

@sahaavik Except for the IT department of most any major US corporation...

H1b GoHome
H1b GoHome

@M Wagner @Datawalla  are you a recruiter pimp or some type of liberal H1B lover ?  H1B is welfare for companies. If you want to hire Indians from India ( where the vast, vast majority of H1B's come from ), go open up shop over there, American jobs are for American citizens, we're not paying taxes to fix India's unemployment problems

DoloresCruz
DoloresCruz

@M Wagner @Datawalla  The notion that America lacks qualified job applicants in any field is another myth. The answer as to who should set wages: the local labor market, not the global labor market. India has over 1.2 billion people, and is a nation with dreadful social problems. The things people will do to pass themselves off as competent professions in order to get a visa out would astound the average American. 1.2 billion is enough to replace every single American 4 times over. As one commenter added elsewhere: "Should we leave the car in the driveway and the dog in the yard for them too?"

H1b GoHome
H1b GoHome

@cloyd42 @AlisaK2000  what the hell does that have to do with anything, America is not a "land of immigrants", every country is a land of immigrants.  America is a land of American citizens, and we pay taxes to help those citizens, NOT citizens from other democracies, let them take responsibility for their own countries

mudpuppy1
mudpuppy1

@cloyd42 @AlisaK2000That's true of them as well. They came from somewhere else as well. At least, that's what they tell us. Most Americans were born here. That makes them native Americans. Also, a lot of Americans can trace their ancestry in the US back for hundreds of years. I think that means they are no longer immigrants.


AlisaK2000 has a valid point. We need to hire American citizens where possible and quit hiring foreigners which puts many Americans out of work. They should work to benefit their own countries. Bringing them here hurts us and them.

John80224
John80224

@cloyd42 @AlisaK2000 I don't share the hardline stance AlisaK2000 takes on immigrants, but the Native American comments are a red herring in the debate. 

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