Social Enterprise

Are IT pros prone to drug abuse?

According to the DEA, "there are millions of abusers working in our companies, some in very sensitive positions." One blogger makes the assumption that since IT workers often have sensitive jobs, they fall into that group. Is this unfair?

Because of several items I've seen in the news lately, I'm starting to develop a complex for IT pros the world over.

Last week, I talked about the connection between Asperger's Syndrome and IT pros. Now there's a piece in Computerworld by blogger Don Tennant that asks, "How rampant is substance abuse among IT pros?"

From the piece:

Bill Sarine, vice president of business development at ICAN Inc. in Raleigh, notes that according to the DEA, "there are millions of abusers working in our companies, some in very sensitive positions."

In his blog, Tennant says that since IT pros "hold some of the most sensitive positions in any company," possible substance abuse is "especially worrisome."

It may be worrisome, but it doesn't mean, as Tennant seems to imply, that the problem is rampant among IT pros. Just because many abusers have sensitive positions, and IT pros have sensitive positions, it doesn't mean that IT pros are substance abusers.

Now if you list coffee as an abuse-able substance, then hell yeah, I'd venture to say we're all heading down the path to overdose. But is there any evidence that IT pros are regularly under the influence?

One reader who posted in response to the piece claims that he has seen abuse among IT pros who use substances to cope with the pressure of the job. Another poster said that after "almost 30 years as a professional software engineer, in DOD, intel (spook), and industrial positions," he saw a lot of substance abuse but felt it was the best part of the job.

A couple of posters questioned the source of the information -- the DEA. Said one:

Look at the corporations that make and administer drug tests, compare to political donors, and look at the revolving doors between government agencies and corporations. Follow the money. Can we say Vested Interests?"

So let's hear it from you guys. First, do you think there is a prevalence of substance abuse among IT techs? Second, is it more prevalent than in any other job?

About

Toni Bowers is Managing Editor of TechRepublic and is the award-winning blogger of the Career Management blog. She has edited newsletters, books, and web sites pertaining to software, IT career, and IT management issues.

153 comments
mwclarke1
mwclarke1

in all the IT positions I have help in the past 30 years, all have required drug testing before and after hire. Some still do, after a small amount of a drug was found on company property, everyone had to go through drug screening, even the C-executives did it. There was talk that a lot of people would have to go, everyone suspected a lot of people were doing drugs. Out of 500 tested and 200 in IT alone, only two were tested positive for THC. That being said, alcohol is a different story, Hell, If they tool my cocktail away in the evenings, I would go nuts the next morning :-) There is a lot more pressure these days in IT and no doubt where there is abuse (if can call it that) I would suspect that is moderate at best, mostly pot usage. I have known some, not many, people in IT and other corporate positions, even VP to C-Executives that did mild use of smoking pot on occasion. They were very responsive, hard working people, never would know that they were doing that from just being around them. I do not agree with being a drug free nation, unless going to do away with prescription drugs too (more abuse with them than other drugs). Although I do not condone drug usage at all (I do not even take aspirin), Other than using while driving (no less than drinking and driving), or while in a position of harm to others or where others rights would be violated, people should be able to do what they want and as for non safety issues with a job, as long as does not impact job performance, other than not using while at work and not under the direct influence while at work, no one has business with what one does outside of work!

Whatserface
Whatserface

Okay, I just can't figure this out... What does "I'm just saying that professionalism would be a pretty big thinking keeping a recreational pot user from ignoring health industry business standards" mean? Can anyone translate that into proper English for me or do I need to smoke some pot to be able to understand what Neon was attempting to say?

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johnrobert333

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jstme
jstme

Have we thought outside the box enough to not consider all use as abuse? If so, are you asking if IT pros are prone to drug use or if IT pros are prone to drug abuse? While they share the same legal consequences, they are two different questions, with two different answers. When are we, as it pros, going to ts these social issues instead of continuing to accept and duplicate the errors of the current os?

deepsand
deepsand

Which is cause, and which effect?

silversidhe
silversidhe

How could anyone take anything they say seriously.

EScott
EScott

I drive a car, therefore I must be a drunk driver, too.

domiller0550
domiller0550

I did not take it that he was worried about alot of IT people using drugs just that if one was then it could possiably have major implications.

bblackmoor
bblackmoor

I am so sick of being treated like a criminal, being humiliated and having my most intimate personal life violated, every time I apply for a job. If the standards of quality at ConHugeCo are so low that they can't tell the drunk/high employees from the ones who are doing their jobs, then something is Seriously Wrong at ConHugeCo, and drug testing employees won't fix that! In the 1970s, a law was passed in the USA making it ILLEGAL for an employer to require a lie detector test, while now, 30 years later, it is simply taken for granted that employees will submit to the humiliation of drug testing before being allowed to work. How far we have fallen in such a short time! This is a sad, sad statement on the "the land of the free".

MumpsGuy
MumpsGuy

No but in some cases we would be better off if we did use.

dawgit
dawgit

Hallo people. "there are millions of x " (fill in "abusers, terriosts, killers, illegal aliens, guns, ....) When will the populace wake up? Is this really a problem. The populace has been looking under rocks for years now while their very own Country is stolen out from under their own noses. There isn't very much in the way of "Drugs" getting into the US that the Government doesn't know about. How do you think the so-called enemies of America get their funds to rise-up against it? So the US Government can justify the wars. (I'll probably be told to be careful what I say again. :( oh-well. :( ) I remember when some of the best coders were the stoners. Why? It's not possible to think under the conditions they had to work under. They had to numb their brain, become a part of the machine system itself, to make it all funtion. They were the CPUs.!. and had to by-pass (human) reason, to to so. It worked. And it sayed many lives as well. Just where, and how, and who... Don't ask, but you (the US tax payers) paid for it, twice. (I also had to watch as those "good Soldiers, and Sailers" were thrown in the trash bins of the American Society) Ok, I'm done now, you may now return to your normal programing. :| -d

NickNielsen
NickNielsen

Caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol. Sometimes at the same time...depends on the day! :D   Do I abuse them? No. Always finish my coffee, smoke the entire cigarette, and never spill my beer.

rich95134
rich95134

I think there is a dearth of people in this profession getting high. I can think of a few people I *wish* would get high on something other than managerial power! Seriously, as people said, caffeine and a variety of sugar drinks are the "drug of choice". Oh yeah, let's not forget OTC NSAIDs because nobody stays home when they're sick anymore! By way of anecdote, I went to Cal (Berkeley) at a young age and got involved in the recreational scene. Almost a decade later I went for a DOE position and had the FBI up my a** for 17 months doing my clearance check because I told them *everything*! I never once used anything but coffee during my tenure, but three guys who breezed through by simply lying on their clearance applications got busted for getting high on the job, in a secured building! I doubt the government has enough clue to recognize drug abuse, let alone categorize it!

pete
pete

The real question is, Are Manager's and Employers suppossed to be part of of the DEA?" I for one am a little sick and tired of the government trying to scare us and waste tax dollars on this never ending and total failure 'war on drugs'. It's pretty straightforward, if a person can do her/his job well while stoned, more power to them. More to the point, do you honestly think that anyone can maintain performance in an IT environment for very long while stoned... I DON'T think so. Honestly I'm more concerned about people who don't do drugs and still can't do their job. Let's stop worrying about people who do drugs and focus on people getting the job done, if they can, great they get to be paid, if they can't, drugs or no drugs, get rid of them. Oh yeah, it's been a L-O-N-G time since I've done any 'recreational drugs' so I don't worry about drug testing, I just think it's a lot of wasted effort!

Veneco_2008
Veneco_2008

Well if you include Coffee and Red Bull yes. Why are the IT pros prone to drug abuse? You didn't say the alleged causes! Stress, cold environment, which are the alleged causes. I meant, a surgeon has a sensitive position too. So, that makes him prone to drug abuse? This article lacks of information.

dgh1999
dgh1999

yea maaan.. like.. i would reply..really.. but like..i am too wasted at 4:00 AM and i got to get ready for a QA walkt-hrough of some new ARMD (automated response missile defense) systems my company is subcontracting for DOD (some really sick systems we architected there) d;)

vanievanwerner
vanievanwerner

I would say with the amount of nonsense IT pros have to take from end users. Most of the times not there fault ea Power cuts, telephone line theft that is out of the hands of the I.T pros. But still they get blamed for it, Now lets think about it

DvT-Hex
DvT-Hex

How about "unreasonable search"? It matters not a whit in the workplace whether a person uses or abuses any substance until...wait for it...it affects their job performance. The drug policy at my work states that no employee shall come to work under the influence of any prescription or non-prescription drug. The day they had me sign the affirmation that I had read and understood this policy, as it coincidentally happened, I had taken a couple of asprin right before work. I pointed this out to them and suggested that I should immediately go home. They told me to "get to work." Hypocrits.

Dr_Zinj
Dr_Zinj

The head of the DEA is going to look at everything with drug-colored glasses. By their definition, the use of everything illegal that is automatically abuse. Now the fact of the matter is, there are a lot of substances (drugs) out there that are illegal, but when used in moderate amounts, have little to no effect after they wear off. They cause no significant damage to the person's body or mind, and in a large number of cases, cause less damage than a drink of alcohol or a pack of cigarettes. Behavior is everything. If you are under the influence at work, not under a prescription, and it is having a detrimental effect, then you are an abuser. If you are using drugs at home and it has an impact on your health that carries over to absenteeism or impeded ability at work, then you are an abuser. If you're having a joint or two in the privacy of your own home after work to relax, and are sober the next day, that's not abuse. If you have a couple of narcotic pain killers left over from a previous perscription (either yours or a family members) to sleep better that night because you sprained your back or mashed your thumb with a hammer, that's not abuse. If you down a six pack of beer at a bar after work and drive home under the influence, then you're an abuser.

drowningnotwaving
drowningnotwaving

One would have to conclude that IT pros are as prone to drug abuse as pretty much anyone else. I'd discuss this more except the pub beckons... ;)

Forum Surfer
Forum Surfer

I know alot of people in my field that had questionable childhoods....myself included. The only difference between myself and some friends of mine that turned into professional criminals/hustlers/whatever is that I was smart enough not to get caught and I was raised well enough to EVENTUALLY realize I was screwing up my life and I got it together. Had I have stayed on the same path I would've gotten caught, everyone does. It just takes some people longer, and by that time they're doing much worse stuff. Every once in awhile I may have a few too many mixed drinks on a Friday night or pop a couple of those percocets that were prescribed to me on Friday night even though I'm not hurting. But I beleive you can kick back from time to time in moderation without having a problem. Not to relieve stress though...I drink only when I'm happy otherwise you have a reason for drinking. If you're going through several pills a day at work or you have a whiskey bottle in the top drawer of your desk or out in the car...you may need to take a look in the mirror.

skicat
skicat

I prefer to get outside and play around of golf, go skiing or surfing. Being cooped up in front of a computer all day then doing the same at night is not health and I don't need a study to tell me that. Outside is good!

mjd420nova
mjd420nova

Having been in IT for over thirty five years, I've seen the service side since it's beginnings and have seen just about everything. Between visiting peoples homes where just about every type of behaviour has been evident and the USERS made no attempt to hide their particular TREATS and have been offered to even join in. In the work place this has also been the case but it is well guarded and kept to the back rooms so to speak. I was never asked to take a drug test until 1994 and only after a new manager decided it was the thing to do and tested everyone, management and labor. He was greatly apalled by the findings and was forced to fire half the management staff for pot, coke meth and herion abuse. The labor side was much less affected and no abusers in the group. However, alcohol was not tested for and it was the drug of choice by far but overlooked by the management, almost like they condoned it. Myself I am not a drinker, abuser or pill popper and often find that I am left out of some private parties because of this. My personal preference is that those who inject, snort or pop pills are dangerous. Those who drink and smoke are a danger to themselves and best left alone. I would rather work with a pothead than any other user type as they are mellow and easy to get along with where other abusers are on a fine edge and will often go off the deep end when placed under stress and more prone to being flaky, missing appointments, forgetting commitments and dozing off during important meetings. Is this more prevalent in IT? No, no more so than any other business. One must be guarded about who you let into your home and workplace as these hard core users will take advantage of unlocked desks and unguarded purses and prone to pilfering small but costly items such as ink cartridges, CD/DVD disks, just about anything that can be easily concealed. Beware however that some long standing abusers are pretty good at concealing their habits and get bettter at it over time. As long as it doesn't affect performance, most will never be found out until the abuse becomes a health issue.

$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$

ConHugeCo regrets to inform you that we have detected evidence of intelligence and critical thinking in your psychological profile. These traits are not valued in corporatist Amerikka, so you have been blacklisted. We apologize for any inconvenience you may be experiencing as a result of our prison industrial complex subsidiaries' "talent is valuable" propaganda campaign, and would gladly make it up to you, if only we gave a crap. [b]WE VALUE YOUR BUSINESS!![/b] Feel free to submit any complaints, comments, or suggestions on how we can improve our indentured servitude of you at www.suckonitstupidprole.biz. Your ideas will be promptly profiled, analyzed, and shared with only the most corrupt members of all 3-letter federal agencies, for imprisonment and institutionalization purposes. May you have a long life, or at least die slowly enough to earn a couple ducats for our incompetent, inbred friends in Big Pharma.

OnTheRopes
OnTheRopes

That's what I overheard a guy say last year when I was talking in public saying stuff about the same as you're saying. Time for me to return to my regularly scheduled programming now.

sboverie
sboverie

I generally agree with the group that says if the work gets done then don't sweat about drug issues. Most seem to tolerant drug use if it does not effect productivity or cause other problems. There is a hitch to this and it becomes a slippery slope. That is when someone is able to hide their addictions so well that a drug/alcohol test is the only way to tell that they are under the influence. A point is the recent Lady Di inquest that showed that the driver was well over the intoxicated limit while driving. The same applies to legal meds and over the counter drugs that can effect behavior on the job. I prefer to tolerate people being medicated when they need to be medicated, for pain or other problems; as long as they do so responsibly. The tricky part is what to do when the medication gets out of control.

DancinKatieh
DancinKatieh

I agree. Now, I suffer from migraines (job related I'm sure) and my doctor prescribes vicodin to "cut the edge" off of them so I can at least function at work. And I have to tell you, if it were NOT for these pills, I prob would have been let go years ago. So does this consist of abuse? I think not. BUT as far as COFFEE....HA I can NOT deal without it!!!! STARBUCKS is #1 with me! ;)

Forum Surfer
Forum Surfer

I have tremendous leg pain from a motorcycle wreck whenever there are dramatic weather changes. I'll pop a couple of percocet through out the day or at night in heartbeat...prescription or not! That doesn't mean I'm out selling my boat or pawning my guns to get my next fix. Also doesn't make me some sort of abuser.

toni.bowers_b
toni.bowers_b

Have any idea where I can pick some up? ; ) Thanks for commenting--I agree totally.

Anonymous Geek
Anonymous Geek

agreed. but the point is that there is a huge difference between "use" and "abuse" regardless of the legality of the substance. however most old-school types call it "abuse" automatically if the substance is not legal, regardless of how moderately and responsibly that substance is being used.

boxfiddler
boxfiddler

hehehe. I've been thinking about your post since you made it, primarily because of the line above. This is an amazingly true statement regarding the mellow attitude of the pothead. If in fact the governments of the world wanted true and deep reaching control of their populations, all they would need to do is provide those masses with an unending supply of pot. (Think soma?) But that is a bit of an aside. Having been a 'speed freak' for too many years, I can attest to the fact that truly addicted users will do anything to get the next dose be it a line, a bowl, a fix. This includes but is not limited to stealing from friends, family, employers. Accosting strangers in the street for purposes of theivery. Breaking and entering for purposes of the same. Selling their own valuables, including their bodies far, far more cheaply than they should. And this is the mild list. It is worth noting that while 'fix' as it is commonly used in relation to [illicit] drug addiction by the ne'er addicted suggests a dose, it came about as a direct reference to the syringe with all it's accoutrements and within the drug culture today still means exactly that. "Beware however that some long standing abusers are pretty good at concealing their habits and get bettter at it over time. As long as it doesn't affect performance, most will never be found out until the abuse becomes a health issue." Speaking only for myself, I think that this is true only depending on the drug of choice and whether the drug is recreationally used or is in fact a necessary substance due to an addiction. Example: there are many, many users of speed who recognize the hazards of their drug of choice and therefore exercise certain precautions. These people function in society to one or another degree of productivity, they use nearly, if not daily, and when the willies set in they give it up for a week or a month. Their productivity lessens to some degree, but they do not collapse of withdrawal. They also rarely suffer the skin-crawling paranoia and eventual constant twitch of the true addict. With speed, at any rate, an addict can be spotted in a heartbeat if one is familiar with what to watch for. My 2 cents. FWIW. etu

drowningnotwaving
drowningnotwaving

Hi mjd..., In general I think you make a lot of good points, but can I ask about one in particular? [i]One must be guarded about who you let into your home and workplace as these hard core users will take advantage of unlocked desks and unguarded purses and prone to pilfering small but costly items such as ink cartridges, CD/DVD disks, just about anything that can be easily concealed.[/i] Seriously, where did you get that from mjd? I've worked in large and small IT depts, marketing departments, on forex desks and management teams where illicit drug use is rampant. Heaven forbid, I've even participated. I've seen big-time theft to support gambling, and theft from the boss's alcohol cabinet to support drinking, but yet to see the DVDs go missing to buy another hit. C'mon!! By the time a drug user is at the "steal the wallet" stage, they wont be capable of functioning at the office or workplace in the manner that you or I call normal. It makes sense to keep your valuables locked up anyway!!! No need to make up legends, is there?

dawgit
dawgit

I was hoping that I would have been the only one. :( Even though it bothers me deeply, I guess I can handle it. What are they going to do, Bend my Dogtags, (I've still got 'em too) and Send me to Someplace Warm? :0 ...been there, done that. Welcome to the Out-Land Ropes. ;) -d

NickNielsen
NickNielsen

so as to create a wire. I'd do that occasionally back when I was young and stupid if I needed to pull an all-nighter. A couple of beers right after supper, coffee the rest of the night, and a beer for breakfast would usually keep me going until about eight in the evening. Then I'd crash for at least 12 hours. I learned not to do that to myself any more.

Forum Surfer
Forum Surfer

The drug/alcohol test is far from %100. I beat one fresh out of my college to get my first real job. The weekend before was a halloween festival, so yeah I got stoned and laid Friday and drug tested on Monday. Passed the test, got the job and the rest is history. I know several people that have beaten it, as well. As for pain medicine, that's never affected my work negatively. As a matter of fact, I'm typically more produvtive...not to mention fun to be around, lol...if I give up and take a percocet or a vicodin for my joint aches while at work.

Forum Surfer
Forum Surfer

Lol...now we're venturing into responsible drug use, now that's odd. I'm not going to hound someone for their recreational drug use if they can handle it in moderation and not let it affect their life. I drink. Not when I'm depressed, or I have alot on my mind...but rather when I'm having a good friday or some other reason to "celebrate" and I do it in moderation. I have a very good friend who was once an acloholic, he can't do that. He does however light up a joint in the same situation. It's illegal yes, but booze has a bad effect on him so he knows just to stay away from it. He more than likely lights one up far less than I have a whiskey sour or a glass of bourbon. Who am I to say he's abusing?

Forum Surfer
Forum Surfer

People want to continue to get high because they are either escaping reality or they are just a weak person in general. Not the drug's fault as it has no addictive qualities. I always got high because I wanted to in high school and college, not because I needed too. Huge difference! These people who smoke like that will just switch to something else if that is taken from them. It's not like crack, coke, meth or even prescription pain killers where your body is physically withdrawing from the drug. If it's illegal because weak minded individuals use it to escape reality, then let's ban online gaming and alcohol. Those are two things some people over indulge in because they can't deal with life's pressure. Let's take away everything that some of us do recreationally because we WANT too because somebody outthere does it because they're too weak to handle their life.

Neon Samurai
Neon Samurai

I'll admit that pot should be legalized anywhere alcahol, tabacco and caffein are legal but real drugs like speed are just downright nasty. Opiates used to be the top of the scary stuff list but I thin Meth took first place a few years back in terms of speed of adictivity. It's all nastiness when it includes physical addiction and lab processing though. Thanks for reiterating why the real drugs are such nasty stuff though. I'll be adding that story to my others for "that talk" when my kids when they come of the age.

josh.zehtabchi
josh.zehtabchi

i feel you, i had a co worker when i worked IT at a local YMCA who would always get excited, sweat like a beast and just be hyped out all the time. He would always rub his noise and sniff, and thought to myself "this is way too obvious to be true, he can't be on speed" he was 36, living with his parents ex army, etc... anyways, my 2cents

managedbymom
managedbymom

I've seen more management & users on stuff than IT people - caffeine, sometimes wake ups etc when doing 72 hour server recoveries while you sleep on your desk - but hey...IT = just do it until it's fixed..no matter what. Add twinkies or any other junk food to keep your sugar up so you don't fall asleep waiting for that next install. Computer users smelling so bad of the night before's adventures, hopped up on whatever besides the morning pep talk... I've refused to go do service or help desk to people unless I have someone go with me or they smarten up - no job is worth that. And I'm talking a car maker plant with 2 letters. It would be nice to put in the tech que logs that user error, file deletion or other "cause of panic" was due to their imparement - like 2 am support calls for deleted files - thinking they were only getting rid of the porn..not the next day's presentation.

dawgit
dawgit

...nobody alone. B-) (not as long as there's someone watching, :0 we won't be. :^0 ) -d

OnTheRopes
OnTheRopes

It's not too bad out here. At least I'm not alone. B-)

Neon Samurai
Neon Samurai

If you drink too much alcahol, poisoning will kill you. Tossing your bar tab in the washroom is an early onset of that sessions poisoning. I remember telling my sister when she turned legal age; learn how to mix drinks if your going to drink because this is a lethal substance if drank in excess. In the case of pot, overdoseing means falling asleep; take a pot nap. If one's tollerance is high (no pun intended) then you'll miss the gigglies and go strait to the pot nap. Worst case senario, you waste whatever you baught due to saturation level and napping. As for the weedalizer, they'd have to develop a road-side pee test. I don't think it's beyond science to do so. Police friends have told me stories about pulling over cars to be greated with a thick cloud out the driver's window. That should absolutely be a DUI charge but they need the science to back it up.

boxfiddler
boxfiddler

can also indicate LSD! ;) Dead giveaway in pupil size there, though. etu

Forum Surfer
Forum Surfer

a field sobriety test for pot. I'll agree, it's like alcohol in that it's ok in moderation. You also have a limit to where it starts affecting your ability to drive, like alcohol. There's no way to test it though. A cop can't give you a ticket for being under the influence without the burden of proof...bloodshot eyes and constantly giggleing isn't sufficient proof and won't hold up in court. They need a breathalyzer with the weedalyzer attachment, lol. :)

boxfiddler
boxfiddler

I was talking about speed. Pot is not a gateway drug, and I personally don't believe it's addictive. I also think it should be legal for a variety of reasons, not least of which is that potheads aren't out committing violent crimes, or driving around hitting peoples houses or pedestrians or others on the road.

Neon Samurai
Neon Samurai

I'm not surprised by the suggestion that Meth was such a gov research project though I had assumed it came from lower level "research" the way Crack came from someone trying to bake coke into cookies. The irony though; US airforce pilots are still using gov research projects. They're testing all kinds of new crap to drug up a better pilot or foot soldier. Tarin was tested in Viet Nam and now it's in nearly every energy drink you pick up.

Neon Samurai
Neon Samurai

I'm not surprised by the suggestion that Meth was such a gov research project though I had assumed it came from lower level "research" the way Crack came from someone trying to bake coke into cookies. The irony though; US airforce pilots are still using gov research projects. They're testing all kinds of new crap to drug up a better pilot or foot soldier. Tarin was tested in Viet Nam and now it's in nearly every energy drink you pick up.

boxfiddler
boxfiddler

Rumor has it 'meth' originated in Hitler's experimental labs. Came across that in a documentary on Hitler I saw awhile back. Thought "it figures" and did not bother to research it. There is some conjecture that Hitler himself was a speedfreak there toward the end. Interesting tidbit...

Neon Samurai
Neon Samurai

I truly hate to consider it coming to putting down any attacker but in terms of a 9mm, center of mass isn't going to do it. Sadly, police need to be training for headshots under conditions where just hitting a target becomes a challenge. Either that or every call becomes a SWAT call. Again, Ick.. what a nasty nasty freaking substance. Unlike Acid, I don't believe it come from government research either.

Neon Samurai
Neon Samurai

We lived in a rougher block of Toronto and would sit on the belcony counting the apartments with tinfoil windows and bright lights behind them. Drapes, drapes, drapes; LAB! (er.. goose). I've been told Meth is one of those substances that people don't come back from once they get hooked. You won't find me sympathetic to someone who's not in treatment to correct that affliction.

Forum Surfer
Forum Surfer

I have a concealed carry permit and I do carry whem I feel the need...it doesn't need to make sense it's my right. :) I carry a Kimber compact 45. I don't have 17 rounds like some people, I only have seven. You only need one to work and statistics show the average gunfight lasts only 3 rounds.

dawgit
dawgit

It's not so important to just 'shoot' a person, You want that person to Stop. I carried a .45 in my military time, and I regreted that the bean counters went to the 9mil. When I was in Law Enforcement I carried a .357, it could / would stop a car. Don't pull a weapon unless you intend to use it, and when you do, use a real one. ;-) -d

Forum Surfer
Forum Surfer

I have several friends in law enforcement. A guy my size, average joe (5'10" 165-170 and not fat, lol) can be extremely dangerous on meth. You need a group of officers to subdue these guys...and we're not talking about out of shape cops, I've seen ex-deltas or SEALs take an a$$ whooping from a jacked up meth head. Tazers become totally ineffective. They will literally rip the prongs out of their skin. Hit him in the knee cap with the baton and he'll stand upright on the broken knee and go toe to toe. Mace...don't even kid yourself. As far as that goes, it's a fact that it is even hard to put someone really jacked up down with a sidearm. 9mm is a joke in such a case, just over penetrates the target and they're still coming at you, which given their hyper activity and the fact you're probally already up close and personal you MIGHT get off 5 shots. Not enough to stop someone, but they'll still have a good thirty seconds before they bleed out to beat you to death unless you put one through their spinal cord...they call it "pileing up", lol since the body instantly just falls. Detectives if you'll notice tend to carry .45's since they actually can choose their own sidearm...it will actually stop a person AND kill them. If you're only going to get off a few rounds, better to have a big slow moving projectile as opposed to a 9mm that just "punches holes" in whatever or whoever you're shooting.

boxfiddler
boxfiddler

below is a link to one that ran on Frontline. Googling documentary meth yields plenty more. Most of these will show some graphic footage of addicts at varying stages of buzz in addition to the long-haul effects of speed addiction. http://tinyurl.com/jdyy5

Forum Surfer
Forum Surfer

Working with law enforcement agencies in the past was a real eye opener for meth. It really is everywhere now. A quiet middleclass neighborhood here was rocked a few weeks back when a meth lab exploded...lifted the house off of it's foundation and when it settled it had shifted 90 degrees. No neighborhood and no one is safe from the reach this stuff has now, it really is everywhere much like coke was in the 80's. Potentially worse if you ask me. Your kids need to be educated on it early these days.