IT Employment

Five job search tips for discouraged job seekers

Authors of a new book encourage job seekers to never give up. Here are five of their tips for job search survival.

Few things are as discouraging as a long, seemingly futile search for a job. Nothing quite drags the self-esteem down than the long silence after you've sent out a resume.

In their new book, Unlock The Hidden Job Market: 6 Steps to a Successful Job Search When Times are Tough, Duncan Mathison, executive career consultant and former vice president of Drake Beam Morin, and Martha I. Finney, careers expert and employee engagement consultant, encourage job seekers to never give up.

Here they share five tips for job search survival:

1. Prepare for an extended search. When the job market shrinks, it takes longer to land a job. Adjust your finances and your expectations now to extend your staying power. Stopping the search until the economy improves is like the farmer who will go hungry at harvest because they didn't plant seeds in the spring. Do not give up. Keep planting those seeds. 2. Don't waste your time on long-shots. If you are only applying to posted jobs and those seem far and few between, your tendency is to cast a wider net by applying outside your geographic area or outside of your expertise ("I could do that job!"). This is a dead-end strategy and you will only face more painful rejection and depressing stories of 500 applicants to 1 job. When it comes to job postings: focus, focus, focus. 3. The right job for you is out there - it just won't be advertised. Employers cut recruiting budgets when times are tight. Instead hiring managers use less expensive and informal word of mouth strategies. As a result a higher percentage of available positions are in the "hidden job market". Job seekers must significantly expand the quality and quantity of their networking efforts to find unpublished jobs. 4. Leave the resume at home. The secret to good networking is to help your network help you. Instead of a resume, give people in your network (everyone you know) a list of 50-75 employers who you think would hire people with your type of skills. Do not ask if the companies are hiring. Instead ask if anyone knows people who work there - particularly managers who might hire and manage people with your skills. 5. Contact managers directly. Get their name, get an introduction and introduce yourself to them. Your introduction can be a simple, "I understand you have people with my kind of background and skills working for you. I don't assume to know if you have job openings but I would like to meet you and learn more about the type of people you like to have on your team and share with you a bit about my background." They may say "sure", they may say "send a resume" or they may say "no", but now they know about you. Remember the ONLY thing managers can do to assure their success is to meet and hire great people.

[The book is also available at amazon.com.]

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About

Toni Bowers is Managing Editor of TechRepublic and is the award-winning blogger of the Career Management blog. She has edited newsletters, books, and web sites pertaining to software, IT career, and IT management issues.

50 comments
jacobus57
jacobus57

Any solid, practical advise for someone who HAS TO MOVE from the area where they are currently living in order to get back home, 3000 miles away? Sometimes personal circumstances create difficult to surmount challenges, so it is not always an act of desperation to be looking for a position outside of one's geographic area.

like2b25
like2b25

I am a retired Sr Computer Field Engineer from the 60's - 80's. Then a software/hardware telecommunications specialist Jack of all trades I guess you would say later. At ADOA in Arizona I was told they paid low wages, but you were guarnteed a job. Well guess what I was out sourced with the rest of Communications when it became more convenient. You know first the government sold us this bill of goods of Global Economy. The U.S. would no longer be a manufacturing entity, but service oriented economy. Of course the government keeps coming up with this preferred nation slogan, which just means cheaper places to have things done. And even the service jobs that we were supposed to be left with have been sent off shore. Not much left for us here at home! The fellow above comparing doctors to IT people. As a field engineer in the early days I saw buddies get banned from a site for not being able to diagnose a difficult problem or make a mistake. I was told braggingly by my U.S. congress woman just last week that she had tort reform passed in AZ, such that as long as the doctor made a mistake, but did not maim or kill you he could not be sued and yet still get paid. Only profession I have ever heard of such a thing. She is trying to have tort reform across the U.S. How many doctors do you think would pay an IT guy for his time if he made a mistake?

juan_milano
juan_milano

Those tips are the basic rules, because you have to spread the world and let it know that kind of job that you are looking for and establish a mindset to find it!!

3dBloke
3dBloke

Just like to say, these five are a good set of rules. Make absolute sense.

umair01
umair01

Small business managers/owners that aren't technical can't deal with offshore companies. They don't want to deal with the timezone, accent, miscommunication and trust issues. This is the market that i'm focusing on as a consultant.

roberts.johns
roberts.johns

In regards to #2, it's hard to even know what a long shot is anymore with some obvious expections of course. I've found that while the description appears to be a wonderful fit, what the company is actually looking for is entirely different. Wouldn't it serve them better as well to write more accurate descitpions instead of pouring through a stack of resumes for canidates who they already know aren't going to fit the bill?

JohnOfStony
JohnOfStony

The 'old boy' network can be invaluable. I changed jobs about every 18 months in my younger days. This got me in contact with many people in different companies, many of whom were also 'job-mobile'. Of the ten organizations I have worked for, All but three of my jobs were obtained via the old boy network and of those three, two resulted from advertisements spotted by friemds/colleagues. I ought to mention here that I've been made redundant three times with a total of 20 months unemployed so even with the old boy network, it's not always been easy, but it certainly helped.

karenc
karenc

just some incoherent ramblings from the UK here competing with outsourcing and more especially offshoring is pretty much impossible my personal belief is that outsourcing was dreamed up by some marketing guy to allow companies to sidestep employment law and allow the hire and fire at will mentality to come to the fore again but when it expanded into offshoring it became completely unregulated, unmanageable and crippled the local job market "hire and fire" managers shouted yippee and jumped in with both feet I wonder if we can offshore management ? I wonder how they'd feel about that ? after all they have this saying that "a good manager can manage anything" and you can easily add "from anywhere" to that why aren't IT professionals regarded in the same category as lawyers ? both work long and hard to obtain their qualifications, both work long and hard to keep their skills up to date, everyone and his dog thinks they know enough about the subject to do it at least as well if not better, everyone expects free advice from them but Lawyers get treated a hell of a lot better that IT professionals what are Lawyers doing to get better treatment and why can't we do it ?

paul.huber
paul.huber

Very thoughtful, beyond just writing a summary and explanation of your experience to "each" requirement which in itself takes some time to accept. A practice manager I worked for would submit proposals to CIO based on looking at the clients current job requirements. It is not immediately clear how you establish contacts in the industry for job requirements without prior relationships.

jmarkovic32
jmarkovic32

Who knows what the hell they're looking for on an IT interview. You go in expecting them to grill you on technical details and instead they talk about vacuous bull**** like "thinking outside of the box" and that technical skills don't matter. Then on another interview you find out that the job description as advertised is different from the one you're being interviewed for. When you finally find a position that you're perfect for, they low-ball the hell out of you. IT is like the wild, wild west these days. There are few hiring standards and concise, reasonable job descriptions.

reisen55
reisen55

Dim for information technology if you happen to be cursed by living in America. You see, wages in Bangalore are sooooo much more attractive to American management. USB Bank pays workers in India an astounding $1.80 an hour. Read that again. So here the backlash is that IT wages are going through the floor. I am committed to a local job that pays a low wage but it is only because it is 2 miles down the road that I would even consider it!!! My private consulting business is collapsing because clients no longer pay. They think we nice IT people do everything for free. Gee, $1.80 an hour looks good.

N!tr0
N!tr0

You are correct about this one. I have been doing some consulting work on the side in my area and most of it is from small businesses as well as relatives of those business owners. I've have also received quite a bit of work due to word of mouth from these same businesses too but unfortunately, not enough to make it my primary business.

jedmonds905
jedmonds905

If the interviewer mentions they are looking for a jack of all trades (not found anywhere in their job posting), run like hell! You will need the skill set of a CIO to survive the place.

sboverie
sboverie

Here in America, they get into the legislatures and congresses and make laws that require a lawyer to understand them. If IT pros could do this then things might be different.

Baron von Headloq
Baron von Headloq

Hi Karen, I suspect we ("IT types" - ALL!) need to consider some rebranding of ourselves. "IT" covers anything more-or-less related to computers (in the minds of most). In reality, we're network cablers, PC-assemblers, Software jockeys, Programmers, Analysts, Process Consultants, ERP Consultants, Project Managers etcetera ... I am working away from the "IT - easy. Any monkey can ..." label by emphasizing that I am a PM, a Process Engineer (tho I hate saying "engineer" - cos I am not a REAL engineer), a Trust/Privacy expert ... depends on the client's request. It's a slow start, but NEVER saying "Oh, I'm in IT" is a great way to start walking away from the idiot labels we have acquired. Will take some time (if it ever happens!) to be able to return to the God-like status days of the 60s and 70s ... And always remind your clients that they get what they pay for. Buying cheap will cost a packet. Agree with ya though. How IS the market looking in Blighty these days?

carpke
carpke

This FRAUD exists in good markets. Avoid fraud during the hiring process by refusing to tell them you current salary! It is none of their buisiness and it never was. This is the way you get lowballed.

dominic.blomfield
dominic.blomfield

IT is an odd one. People in IT enjoy it, are interested by it and often do IT related things as hobbies (or model trains) People out of IT either hate it, tollerate it, don't understand it or don't care. This leads to a situation where, often, an non IT person is attempting to hire an IT person and does not know what they want, does not understand what they want and often does not really care. "Just get it sorted, and quickly, because it shouldn't take you very long anyway. Its obviously easy, but I don't do IT so I want you to do it. PS I'll pay you for typing, as thats what it looks like your doing" I am the office administrator, and although understood, its not officially recognised, as I am also an architect. Half the time I don't know what I need to do to fix something until i have investigated and researched a bit, so How anyone else can second guess my hours on it. It takes what it takes, and yes I am doing my best.

Tom-Tech
Tom-Tech

Very true. All I do all day is drink whiskey, play poker and bang prostitutes. My Boss complained to me that the quality of work wasn't up to scratch (as he ever tried to implement a business engagement process whilst drunk and playing Texas Hold 'em? I doubt it). I challenged him to shoot out in the street outside the office, and now I'm the boss.

Madison.expert
Madison.expert

That was really an important topic. Thanks for the information shared here. By the way I got a good job in the IT industry through the job site CloudJobs which is the best online source for the job seekers in cloud Computing.

TBone2k
TBone2k

Highly qualified workers in India are giving up their regular IT jobs to go work for CAPTCHA breakers. Its the new industry, it seems. They get paid about $2 for 1000 broken CAPTCHAs and they can work from home.

Dr_Zinj
Dr_Zinj

Unfortunately for many businesses, they only think they can export the jobs. For instance, help desk services are exportable, but only if your people have impecable language skills and pronounciation. Well over half of the indians (and other non-americans) manning those phones are totally incompentent to carry on a conversation with a dog, much less a harried business person. And no, or poor service due to lack of communication skills means you've just lost that customer, probably forever. Jobs that are safe are those that are highly skilled, require hands-on work, and are infrastructure dependent (i.e. impossible to move)

gary
gary

It is definitely an issue. One reason why it works is that a dollar goes further in other places. I know of high quality programmers being paid $600 a month in cash and they are living like kings in their country. If they get the chance to move to the US with a $50,000 annual salary, they think that is more than 5 times than what they are making and they get to go to the US. They quickly discover that $50,000 does not go far in US.

canddsol
canddsol

I hear you there. I have a number of sales people I support and some of them think that they can bring me their home PC and I'll just fix it for free. One of them was surprised when before I started working on his PC I began talking rates. Just because we will fix your work laptop when you install the nastiest ransomware, by COB that day, doesn't mean we'll spend the companies time to work on your personal laptop. If I take it home it's on my time and my time is not free.

skykeys
skykeys

Reisen, I can relate to your problem. It's unfortunate, but I find myself hoping that accountants, lawyers, pharmacists, finance and management jobs get outsourced also. Then we can all try to sell each other insurance while we go merrily down into the economic dumpster.

Baron von Headloq
Baron von Headloq

Remember that we USED to do something like that? Then some twits decided that silly ideas like "user-friendly" and "user-centric" and so on ... were GOOD ideas. That was the end of an era. The day we stopped writing in Hex, well, I tell ya, that was the end of Our Supremacy!

karenc
karenc

I've always been a software engineer with analyst programmer mixed in, although I've worked in pretty much every category you mention except ERP I've never been an IT anything except in the eyes of management who seem to regard us all as interchangeable and invisible unless they need the toner changing in their printers job market in blighty .... hmmmm there are jobs but finding them is difficult Computer Weekly used to have roughly half it's copy devoted to job ads in fairly fine print, now you are lucky if there's two pages in large print and they tend to be senior positions, mind you a lot of that is down to job sites on the web and the general move away from print entry level jobs for university leavers ? not seen any of those beasties for years I kinda gave up applying when I turned 50, I couldn't take the way the interviewers faces would fall when I walked through the door nowadays I work for myself, it's not brilliant as I don't have the business mentality, I'm a problem solver and selling is not something I enjoy doing, even when it's selling myself, the bills get paid though, which is all that matters

reisen55
reisen55

Aon Group outsourced to Computer Sciences Corporation in August, 2004 and after a year CSC overcharged Aon by only $200 million at which point CSC had a solution to save the contract: 140 people who were highly skilled, performed hands-on work and work on internal infrastructure were fired with 30 days notice. Our replacements were kids whose previous jobs were delivering pizza and THAT IS TRUE. My friend, no job is secure.

Observant
Observant

It's the typical party answer. By that, I mean the scenario is usually at a social gathering of some sort and after the usual perfunctory greetings, you get around to the "So, what do you do?" question. After being asked to fix more PCs that Circuit City had in stock, I decided to start my own consulting business. My answer after that was "I have have my own PC repair business" to which they reply, "What do you charge?" ... I would answer "Less than GeekSquad"... I would also typically get a comment about "My (insert close family tie here) tried to fix it" usually referring to a brother-in-law who can barely spell PC. ... Once I hear that, my fee would double (which is why I never gave out an actual amount at the beginning of the conversation). ... I call this my "DNA proximity factor" ... The closer the relationship, the higher the fee! I still did pretty good for myself. Grossed over 20K the first year. That was working part time, evenings, in a small town of only 3000.... But sheesh, it got old fast. Hence, I now just respond "I'm a Proctologist".... So far, I've never had anybody ask me to check "anything" out!!!!

JGH59
JGH59

Rather than bitch about working on home PC's, enourage it. Be the champion for the wired workforce. Of course you'll need management approval to do it doing working hours. Become the person everyone depends on and you'll be the last one out the door. One big problem with IT folk is they tend to isolate themselves from the rest of the workforce. They locate us in back rooms near servers and we've preferred it that way, it's time to try something different. Look at it from their perspective, why not outsource the job of the unapproachable guy that nobody ever sees.

lcave
lcave

Amen to that!!!

jmarkovic32
jmarkovic32

That's why IT salaries are dropping and people expect you to fix their pieces of crap for free. They think that it's easy to do and doesn't take much time for "computer geeks" (worse than a racial slur). I once had a friend who said, "Why do you charge so much, all you do is sit down in front of the computer." People seem to equate hard work with strenuous physical activity, getting hands dirty and sweating. When people walk past our cubicles all they do is see us sitting down staring at a computer screen. For all they know, all we do is sit around surfing the web until THEY find some actual work for us to do. Take for example cleaning spyware off of a PC. That could take hours for even the most skilled technician because of a sluggish and buggy computer and the multiple restarts and scans. All they see you doing is sitting at a computer for 3 or 4 hours and when you hand them the $200 bill, they get an attitude. That's why I refuse to do any computer work for workmates outside of work. This is why they resent paying us a livable wage. If Indians can do it for $1.50 an hour, then it must not be hard work and we can do it for $10 an hour. Can we use the same logic for a doctor who charges $300 for just taking your temperature, listening to your heartbeat and looking at your tonsils? That looks like easy work to me! I have no idea of the expertise it requires or why he's doing it, but it looks easy and someone should do it for $15 an hour. If I really believed that, many people would call me an idiot. Yet it happens to IT professionals every day.

bfpower
bfpower

I do consulting on the side of my day job, and as soon as I started letting a few people know I wouldn't fix it for free, everyone seemed to know. It went something like this: "We used to do that, but since I have a side business doing this, I felt it was a conflict of interest to do it through [company name]. Now I do all my side technical support through the consulting business. My rates are..."

karenc
karenc

the 50+ dealing with each other idea works for me skykeys, where do I apply ? I did have this weird idea of forming an internet based virtual company, initially formed around a chatroom where we would work out how to make the idea work first the idea was members would collaborate and submit bids for contracts using the company, most people have their own hardware and software and would use that to do the actual work with the company providing whatever else was needed once it built up enough of a bank balance, so initial projects would be fairly simple ones hopefully leading to more complex projects later sort of an association of contractors, it would need pretty much all the staff that a normal company has, it just wouldn't have or need a centralised location to work from, everyone would work from home in whatever country they happen to live in there were a lot of problems that needed ironing out, not least how do the proceeds from a project get divided among the members, would it be to pay just the team that did the work, an overhead for non development staff and a percentage put aside for future development, for example I couldn't find anybody interested in looking at the idea I even went so far as to make a chatroom to discuss the idea, but the only member applications I got were from spambots, so I deleted it

skykeys
skykeys

Karenc, you said "I kinda gave up applying when I turned 50,". I can relate. I was laid off along with a bunch of my 50ish aged colleagues from IBM. Companies promise better perks the longer you work for them; i.e., more vacation, pensions that accrue the most after you're 50 or 55 (if they hav a pension at all of course), etc. But increasingly fewer people are able to get to this point before they are laid off. The laws about age discrimination are very difficult to pursue. We 50+ people should just deal with each other. In most cases, we have money put away. We should just do business with each other; the heck with the large companies.

reisen55
reisen55

2064 hours per year got me humble

Baron von Headloq
Baron von Headloq

I am guessing that "12 months = 2064 hours per month" was an itsy slip of mental gear ;-)

reisen55
reisen55

Here is the trouble with India, all the work has to be redone.... 8 hours a day 5 days a week = 40 hours per week 4.3 weeks to a month = 172 hours per month 12 months = 2064 hours per month You can do the $1 and $10 an hour math from this point onward.

MyopicOne
MyopicOne

My old company outsourced and offshored last year. Rates for offshored company employees onsite in the US was ~$120/hour, rates for their offshore employees ~$30/hour - and you can be damn sure the employees saw nothing close to either. Five offshore guys working on SAP onsite had to live and drive together to survive in the DC suburbs (an admittedly expensive area). Management did not seem to find it amusing when I said I'd take $100/hour for the onsite work. They realized of course I would now charge them at time and a half for the unlimited overtime they got out of me as an employee. And they wonder why I took the voluntary severance!

Baron von Headloq
Baron von Headloq

... which is "You get what you pay for." When it's a particularly persistentz sponger or customer who feels that "any monkey could do it...", I ask them to sit with me (incentive: if it is SO easy, and you can tell me what to do next, I'll do it free. For a month.). Sadly, I have not yet been able to give away a free month of consulting time.

reisen55
reisen55

You've got the right attitude and starting a business can be enormously enjoyable and drive you to drink at the same time. I have a wonderful group of clients and oddly enough those that I have had, personally, for over a decade pay me very well and on-time. I have a association with a brilliant colleague who is invoice brain dead and he has destroyed the business-pay equation, essentially doing work for free anyway. If you do not invoice = free. AARRGGHH. I am busy catching up on a ton of projects, some of which have gone so long they have to given up at a loss. But best of luck to you.

Alces
Alces

Thanks for sharing the info about living in India/Mumbai.

carpke
carpke

The company sometimes doea not even pass it on to the employees. Company 180/hr employee 12.50/hr AND NO OT!

reisen55
reisen55

Your wages and economic environment in India are vastly different from here. But in the middle of the outsourcing world are firms such as Computer Sciences Corporation, Affiliated Computer Services, old IBM and many others. This is where your country is being cruelly USED. Your paid wage is one thing, but over here do not doubt that these firms, on this shore, charge a FAR HIGHER wage or build it into their support plan for their American clients. Do you really think that CSC would pass $ 1.80 an hour along to their clients, or ... well, fudge the numbers a bit so it becomes more like $50 an hour for projects and other fun games they like to play. One of my favorites was 20 hours for a project - the thing is completed in 10 hours and CSC then bills for 20 hours anyway. Do you really think there is honesty in this game?

ashtricky
ashtricky

I totally agree on the hard-work part & the attitude of non-IT people towards IT people. I understand that they don't understand the way we charge - but this difference is everywhere. In any career line u choose, only you know how to convert its components for monetary benefit - For Eg. A photographer would charge a good sum for a perosnal portrait of 10 pics - but end of day he is just clicking pics & its all using a digital camera. We always undermine the skill !! Coming back to your point of "Outsourced wages / people are not hard working" would be completely incorrect. You need to understand the standard of living in every country is different. 10 bucks holds a different value in different countries... E.g US/UK - 10 bucks could fetch you a decent meal. But its not the same in countries like India & China. Reason being the cost of living is different & less as comapared to the Foreign Exchange conversion ratio. When you say " If Indians can do it for $1.50 an hour, then it must not be hard work and we can do it for $10 an hour" - Its differnt - An IT manager in India would get something what you earn a month. 1$ = 48 INR 10$ = 480 INR 8 Hrs of Work * 5 Days * 4 Weeks = 160 hrs 160 * 480 = 76800 INR Trust me a very high skilled experienced developer would earn such a amount ! So in a way, we being paid less - without a option or choice Its not that India offers cheap / low cost services, its just that after the foreign exchange conversion ratio - the overall cost comes really low. I bet the people in UK would say the same thing when it comes to what you charge in US in terms of wages... The whole issue & point is conversion & not the skill or work done by people. At the end of the day, its the big multi-national companies who use this globlization stragity to lower their cost. At end of the day, No one blames them... FYI - China/Japan would do the same work you do for $10 for 10 cents. Although, Japenease are considered most brainly in terms of computers n chips etc. So what would you call it - MNC money conversion to lower cost Or less hard work by chinease or japenease people ?

mgcarley-tr
mgcarley-tr

This is a good idea actually. When people balk at my pricing, I usually just tell them that they can pay someone else to fail first, and when they want it done properly, come back to me.

mgcarley-tr
mgcarley-tr

I have a policy of charging EVERYONE for fixing computer stuff - hardware or software. If they balk at the price, barter to get a better deal on your end. I do consulting also (though not as my primary business anymore), but like other posters, found that people are not willing to pay - at least not for quality. This is the case especially with things like web design - I feel sorry for independent web designers these days. "We can get it done in India for 1/5th the price," they say. Well, sure - nice for you. But if you want it to work properly, or when it needs fixing, let me know. Computers are my BUSINESS. While they may also be my hobby, my hobbies don't involve building stuff for other people. Using the mechanic as an example again, would the mechanic fix your car for completely free? I think not. Say for example, the guy is a mechanic, have him fix your car AND pay you say 70% of the quoted price, but never do it for $0 and a favour to be called in down the line. Get it in writing. If they still balk at the price, tell them to get it done elsewhere, and when that doesn't work, come back to you. Probably 80% of the time, I end up rescuing the project. So, I actually live in Mumbai now, which is certainly not a cheap place to live (contrary to popular opinion in Western countries) - in fact, it has areas which cost as much or more than any American, European or Asian city to live. You could live in the slums for a lot less, but you probably wouldn't want to. Workers here still get paid peanuts (I've seen salaries offered of anything between INR10,000/$200 up to INR40,000/$800 per month) for a run-of-the-mill programming job, and IT schools often offer "job-guarantees" with "attractive" salaries at the lower-end of that scale. Here, nobody has heard of benefits packages, and workers are treated not just as dogs, but as *disposable* dogs - They have few rights, and if someone leaves, they can be readily replaced. "The Simpsons" has an episode called "Kiss Kiss Bangalore" which outlines this a bit. My girlfriend earns an "attractive" salary of INR600,000 per year at a western luxury retail company, but she would be considered extremely fortunate: her friends consider themselves lucky to receive even half that in their various jobs. At the same time, most people live with their extended families until they're about 30, so when there are 4-5 people in the household contributing $300-500 per month, it adds up. One could easily survive alone on about $1000 a month though: accommodation is expensive (I pay $400/month and live with 1 other person who pays $400 also, BUT, I have an extremely good deal and live in a desirable area of the city), but food is very very cheap - a meal of Indian or "Chinese" food might set you back $1-2 on average. Westerners might spend $4-5 per meal. Transport is cheap (it costs me INR14 or about $0.30 to get to AND from the office each day - about an hour each way). Internet access is expensive (256k easily $15/month), phone calls are cheap (INR1/minute local fixed and cellphone, INR1.50/minute nationwide, but various providers offer various complicated plans), clothes are cheap (tailored suit: $100, regular button-up shirt $2-10, pants $2-10) etc. Fortunately for me, I get paid a "Western Salary", and I'm also starting my own company (we are competing with the rubbish ISPs) which will be paying high salaries (by Indian standards), but only because we want to be the best and have the best people.

ThatWasUnexpected
ThatWasUnexpected

To take your toolkit and drop it on your boss's desk and say, "If it's easy, let's see you do it." But then I need the paycheck so....

skykeys
skykeys

Very well said, Arsynic !