IT Employment

How do you deal with male bashing in the workplace?

The only male in his workplace is constantly subjected to male bashing by his female co-workers. How should he deal with this? Blogger Toni Bowers says by filing a harassment charge.

I received an email recently from a guy in an otherwise all-female office, asking how he should deal with being subjected to constant male bashing.

It never ceases to amaze me that the same women who would have a cow over an insensitive remark directed at their own gender can feel perfectly justified in being complete boors toward men. Some women interpret sexual harassment laws, designed in most part to protect them, as a weird kind of permission to turn the tables on men. Or maybe it's just the group mentality rearing its ugly head against the one person in the office who is different. Whatever it is, it's just plain stupid. It's not good-natured, and it's not "just teasing." It's annoying, and it could result in a lawsuit.

Nearly 20 percent of claims of harassment or hostile work environments are made by men, alleging harassment from both men and women. I'm surprised that many men come forward given that there is, unfortunately, still some social stigma associated with men reporting sexual harassment. (I've read comments in our forums from men who say, "I'd love to be sexually harassed!" the likes of which don't help the situation much.)

In addition to the stigma, men face the same obstacles women do in regard to reporting incidents of harassment. Taking action creates tension in the workplace and may make it intolerable for an employee to stay employed there. But a guy should take the steps as a woman in the situation:

  • Start internally. If your immediate manager refuses to take action on a complaint, go up the ladder until you find someone who will. State your case calmly, which is my advice for almost any workplace issue that has to be taken to a higher level.
  • Go external. A public company will likely have an anonymous reporting process. If not, or if the company is private, you may have to contact legal counsel. Start with the company's own legal counsel; maybe they will have the sense to see the danger in the situation even if the company executives can't.

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About

Toni Bowers is Managing Editor of TechRepublic and is the award-winning blogger of the Career Management blog. She has edited newsletters, books, and web sites pertaining to software, IT career, and IT management issues.

106 comments
Zenith545
Zenith545

Subject line says it all - complain, then get fired.

jck
jck

Unless the guy is somewhat higher-up and isn't (somewhat easily) replaceable, then he should just find a new job. Why? Because if he isn't an important asset, he will more than likely be run out after the storm of controversy all dies down. Personally if he's being harassed, he should also simultaneously file paperwork with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in his area. This way, it's documented with him and if his work situation changes afterward he will have recourse. I am in sort of a different environment where there is a woman who works here who is sort of the "boss' pet", and she will out loud make defamatory and insulting statements using biggoted and insulting names toward Rep. Barney Frank and other people of a homosexual persuasion. Am I gay? No, but I've been overweight most of my life and know how it feels to have people calling you names both to your face and behind your back. Being insulted is never fun, and it's not something anyone should have to put up with in a professional environment...whether the comment is toward them or not...inappropriate is inappropriate. But, I don't file any complaints. She's been here for years, she's loved by most everyone, and I'd be run out of here within 6 months if I did file any complaints. I thought seriously about recording her comments and forwarding them via anonymous email to the federal government, but figured that would do no good either. Hence, yet another reason I'm examining the job opportunities that come before me about every other week for the possibility to go somewhere I will be happier.

AV .
AV .

Basically he's the only guy in an all-female office? The poor guy. He's gotta get out of there. What was he thinking??? With those kind of odds, he's likely to encounter some major male-bashing. It would be the same thing if the roles were reversed, too. You mentioned that 20% of harassment and hostile work environment claims were filed by men, alleging harassment from both men and women. It would be interesting to know what percentage of the 20% were women. AV

w2ktechman
w2ktechman

any bashing is usually done with humor or baseball bats. 1 of those is usually more deserved than the other, but both are warranted in many occasions. If there is no physical pain here, then tell the friggin loser to STFU and be a friggin man about it. After all, a man would likely get more shlt from his friends anyway, and should be used to it. If it is of the physical bashing, he had better check up with his insurance, and determine how much he is willing to take before quitting the job, and to look into this soon. EDIT: -- Scummy made me type this -- I swear

BigIve
BigIve

It is good to have a sense of humour about this issue, but it does show a deeper issue. This type of sexism is ingrained into our culture (or is definitely here in the UK). Toni has herself written an article bemoaning the lack of women in IT. Where was the article bemoaning the lack of men in teaching or the caring professions? This sexism is so common that many people can?t even see it. We used to hear a lot about inequality of the number of women going to university. Now there are more women than men going to university, it has all gone quiet. Watch TV and count the number of adverts where (straight white) men are made to look stupid or mocked. Now count the number where women are made to look foolish. Did you count any? The intelligent capable woman handles every situation flawlessly while the stupid male flounders helplessly. This is like a mirror image of the adverts from the middle of last century. All this adds up to making women feel it is socially acceptable to abuse men and belittle their opinion - women are entitled to take this attitude. The other facet of this is that women use language in a much more indirect way than men, in general. This means that the male bashing may be done in a subtle manner which is not easily understood outside the immediate situation. This poor guy could be in a no-win situation. If he complains then he can be seen as weak and unable to handle himself. If he asks to move to another department then he is a sexist pig who is unable to work with women. Add to this that the abuse may be done in a discreet manner which makes it difficult to provide examples or even recordings to back it up. Our culture will nearly always make the woman the victim in cases of sexism. Don't agree? Consider the following hypothetical. The only woman in an otherwise all male office disagrees with a point of business. If she fights strongly for her point then she is considered a fine upstanding independently minded woman. If a man in an otherwise all female office does the same, then he is a pig-headed chauvinist who cannot accept that women have a valid point of view. And FYI the term is misandry - which is so rarely used my spell checker does not even recognise it!

mjd420nova
mjd420nova

As more and more females begin to take over positions with more power in their companies administration and HR, I see more prejudice against the male workers. I have also witnessed a phenomenon that exists between a male worker and a female worker. The male will listen to every word the female says and the female will listen but only hears what she wants to hear. This has really manifest itself in the HR departments where a female is the one in charge. Problems brought to their attention by a male will be heard but no action will be taken if another female is involved. But if a problem is brought to them by a female and it involves a male, look out, the ax will fall, and never on the female. I've seen it happen. A male can go to the supervisor, a female about a female worker having a dirty mouth and nothing happens but let a female complain about a male swearing and the roof caves in. I've also seen it where a female will call a male a dirty name and the male responds in like and guess who gets the shaft - - The male. How do you combat this? There isn't any way to defeat this except by ignoring all the females outright, do not listen to them or even acknowledge their presence unless it's the supervisor and in that case, cover your six.

abdulndanusa
abdulndanusa

Being a man means standing up for yourself, not taking crap from people, sounds to me like some one needs to be more assertive.

smatteson
smatteson

My idea is so revolutionary that it's bound to be shocking to some: ignore other people's irrelevant remarks, focus on your work, and be grateful to have a job in a nation with a 10% unemployment rate. Seriously, does this guy care so very much about what people think or does he just not have enough to do on the job? By the way, I'm a guy as well.

jmarkovic32
jmarkovic32

Male-bashing (along with Christian and white-bashing) is an unfortunate part of our culture. Those who have traditionally been oppressed in society believe that it is fair retribution to become the oppressor. Look at adverstisements. It's seen as proper and funny to always cast the man as the idiot buffoon. Some men feel they can even honor women by being self-depricating. The same is true of any minority in society. Some blacks are borderline racist in the workplace, but everyone looks the other way because in our society that's seen as okay. Like women, they are incapable of predjudice.

mwisniew
mwisniew

This kind of stuff is what's making this country go down the tube.

plumbsue60
plumbsue60

I agree that harassment is wrong under all circumstances and as most crimes and violations against those who experience them they are hard to prove and 9 times out of 10 the perpetrator gets off scot free. I work in a female dominated office, 9 women and one men. I am fortunate enough to work with mature workers who do not stoop that low but one male. This says very degrading things about women in a joking way but we still don't appreciate them and yet he has been doing so for years and will stop.

Osiyo53
Osiyo53

LOL ... so what's new? I hear male bashing all the time at work. And during off work hours. One just has to listen in on almost any two or more women getting together for a chat and the male bashing can go on for hours. If that's not enough for you, watch TV. Its full of it. But FWIW, I don't let it bother me. Some of it is just good natured ribbing. Much of it I think is done by women who've never given it a great deal of thought that it might be considered bashing. The same sort of bashing they'd strongly object to if it were directed at them. And some know its bashing but consider men as fair game to bash. To state my opinion succinctly ... I simply don't give a damn. It's just words. If its true its true, if its not it doesn't matter anyway. In one ear, out the other. I don't make it a policy to argue with or to try to change the opinions of idiots. As for those ladies who're doing it in good natured humor, I just laugh with em. If one is so thin skinned one can not put up with some ribbing and jokes at your expense, you should probably stay home and not mix in with the rest of human society.

Englebert
Englebert

Find a place where there's about an equal proportion of gender and diversity. You will never win. Even if they stop the harassment, they will get you with the gossip. Generally, the intelligent, professional women (IT) can get along great with all as they work together towards a common cause. But if you find yourself in the midst of a catty bunch who gossip, complain, gang-up, b**ch to end, then follow this advice........Quit

mmoran
mmoran

Think about it. Who do we bash? Our equals, or those below our own level? Nope. We bash "the boss," as a way of taking out our frustrations at our lower position in the hierarchy. Want to be regarded and treated as genuine equals, ladies? Start acting like it.

turtle975
turtle975

If it really bothers him, he should say something. Check out the books "Crucial Conversations" and "Crucial Confrontations" for tips. There is also a CD version.

reisen55
reisen55

When I was part of the info tech team at Aon and was outsourced OUT in 2005, the message boards for the firm constantly refered to all of us as IT DEADWOOD and that the stock price would skyrocket once all that DEADWOOD was gone. Yeah, right. Like outsourcing affects that directly. Instead Aon has over 2,000 in India rolling out a whole new platform and it is going to be WIRELESS in all regional offices. How about showing respect for US in the workplace, AMERICAN MANAGEMENT??? ANYBODY LISTENING?

JackOfAllTech
JackOfAllTech

This is one of the things wrong with this country! "You hurt my feelings, I'll sue" Nobody loves me everybody hates me.... Suck it up! Be a better person than they are and ignore it.

Jessie
Jessie

And drag him off to your cave. I've called several of my female friends on their male-bashing... "Now come on, you can't REALLY think that?!?!" seems to be effective.

sboverie
sboverie

Sexual harassment demeans both parties. I like the aspect of our culture to work with both men and women as professionals and not as predators. I witnessed a sexual harassment with a young man and a 30-ish woman. He was rather too friendly and asked very personal questions like what her bra size was. This was before sexual harassment became an open issue. I was surprised that the woman would continue to talk with the young man and not tell him off for the obtrusive comments. I did not know how to deal with it either. The young man was moved to a different location in the building after a few weeks.

boxfiddler
boxfiddler

but at least he is finally letting you out to play again. :^0

alfielee
alfielee

....you did it all on your lonesome. Make a sensible statement rather than what you think makes you sound "cool" or "manly". It rather makes you look like a "tool".

maecuff
maecuff

The only woman in an otherwise all male office disagrees with a point of business. If she fights strongly for her point then she is considered a fine upstanding independently minded woman. The above would be great! If only it were true. In the above scenario, the woman is very often thought of as a ball-breaking shrew. An intolerable bitch who just wants to rock the boat. It's been my experience that strong willed women often pay a price for being strong willed.

sboverie
sboverie

This is the attitude that causes a lot of problems. One can stand up for one's self but if the culture is hostile then standing up just makes you a bigger target. What do you do when your suggestion does not work? If you can quit and find another job quickly then that would be better but otherwise it is a bad position if you have to man up and take whatever is thrown at you.

PaulK66
PaulK66

Let us put men and women together See which one is smarter Some say men, but I say no Women run the men like a puppet show Chorus: That's right The women are smarter That's right The women are smarter That's right The women are smarter Smarter than a man in every way

SPC_TCOL
SPC_TCOL

Now i am working in a place were we are recording the hallways and some rooms, but my office door is closed very often. I also have to deal with students, and i was wondering if it's allowed that i videotape my room. Do i have to have sign to tell people they might be video taped, because they already know that they are some camera in front of my office.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

Political correctness run amok. I don't feel anyone should be subjectd to verbal abuse at a workplace, but there are employments standards/laws to prevent that anyway. But I think the politically correct thing has gone way too far now, anything that COULD possibly be construed as offensive to one or two, is now seen as absolutely disgraceful to all. Let's all grow up and be adults for once. If someone harasses you at work, tell them to FO and get bent. Well, you used to be able to but now they'll send you to anger management classes and try to counsel you for standing up for yoruself. Political correctness has run amok to the point that nothing is acceptable and nobody has to be responsible anymore, laws will fix all problems of mandkind.

Goober1988
Goober1988

Have you ever listened to a group of men and a group of women? Both parties bash on each other. Women say things like all men are the same, they cheat, they don't care about what women (significant other) is going through. Men do the same women need to stay home cook, clean, take care of the kids, It goes both ways but their is a line that does not need to be crossed, things like that should only happen when you are not at work or any work associated event. Things are just being assumed here, nobody on here knows what those women are doing to that man but the women and the man. Is he being sexually harassed, is it just men this and men that comments, are they talking down to/about him, nobody but them knows and no matter what it should be stopped cause I know as a female I would not appreciate any of the above from any male. I especially do not put up with being talked down to I am smarter than some male counter parts I know so nothing is ever fully right about one gender or another. The main and basically only difference between the two are women can carry babies and bleed for about five days a month and not men. Our brains are the same and everything else.

maecuff
maecuff

You're gonna have to get some thicker skin or find something else to do.

dwdino
dwdino

We have a winner.

itadmin
itadmin

"Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" Not really. Women start off occupying the politically correct moral high ground with us pigs (men are all pigs, didn't you know?) down below. They are allowed things we wouldn't get away with. A few years ago in a hospital I worked in the female staff stuck A4 sheets to the walls with a drawing of a man planted into the ground, sticking out from his middle on upwards. The caption was "Grow dope, plant a man." They were so proud of themselves; so many jokes with women as the butt of the joke were doing the rounds and here they at last had one in which the men were the but of the joke. We good-naturedly indulged them - let the girls have their fun. All hell would have broken loose had we pasted jokes about women on the hospital walls. New Zealand is an Amazonian society where political correctness is queen. There are so many one liners which will stop a domineering woman right in her tracks. Here are a few, try them. *Don't break your pretty little head about that. Let the men worry about it. *If God wanted you to think He would have made you a man. (My favourite.) *There's a sink full of dishes with your name on it. *Why don't you go and bake a cake? These, and others like them, render most women speechless. Unfortunately, only for a few seconds.

santeewelding
santeewelding

...tool? It rather makes you look like a tool of the uninformed and uncertain. And, not sensible.

Forum Surfer
Forum Surfer

I've seen it before. What's odd is that we guys often find ourselves ridiculously attracted to the "ball breaking shrew." Or maybe it's just me... :)

BigIve
BigIve

The truth is that any situation will be interpreted differently depending on who is involved. I agree that a lone female dissenter can be seen as a ball-breaker. My point is that our media and cultural structure make women feel empowered and entitled to stand up for their views. This is great and should be the socially accepted normal for both sexes. The problem is that a lone male dissenter will be seen as a chauvinisitic dinosaur who cannot cope with empowered entitled women. It is true that there are plenty of chauvinisitic pigs and ball-breaking shrews out there who are incapable of functioning with the opposite sex. This is never going away - the battle of the sexes will go on forever (as long as we make peace long enough to make babies). Mostly this is a minor part of life. It becomes significant when it affects career, happiness and mental health. BTW the following link shows a bewildering and slightly scary advert from yesteryear. http://www.networkworld.com/slideshows/2009/110909-vnitage-tech-ads.html?t51hb#slide25 This is from a bygone era and we can look back and laugh at it. The problem is that these adverts are still being made but with the roles reversed. This is not equality.

alfielee
alfielee

The truth is that generally women's comments do tend to be subtler than men's. Like men, if asked, they nearly always tend to minimise the tone of their comments & so underplaying their own responsibility. It is true that male-trashing goes on in a generally accepted manner. The upshot is a generation of under-achieving males in the way that women were earlier in the last century. Women today are far more valued than men in their middle-class careers are treated with more respect; ie primary school teachers & nurses are predominantly women; as opposed to construction workers of any trade are considered untrustworthy, unreliable & dishonest. Most news readers today are female, males are replaced regularly in presentation jobs by women just to improve the view. Males are not only less respected they are seen as a less valuable & often only in a position because there isn't a woman to do the job. This is dependent upon who runs the business & the type of business. In IT & building most employees are male.

abdulndanusa
abdulndanusa

I have dealt with a situation like this and I agree with you, I would add that unless it becomes physically threatening ignoring it an not letting whatever it is they say or do affect you mentally is part of being a man.

Forum Surfer
Forum Surfer

Some states require a formal notice of surveillance. Some states only require that one of the two parties be aware of the surveillance...I believe this may be the case in Texas, but I am not certain. In either case, a good lawyer can sometimes get video or audio surveillance tossed out as circumstantial evidence depending on the circumstances, even if you were within your rights.

mdgoble
mdgoble

The following is the 2007 winning entry from an annual contest at Texas A&M University calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term. This year's term: Political Correctness. "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

Forum Surfer
Forum Surfer

More weenies in action...see previous parental weenie rant: http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=320495&messageID=3196082&tag=content;leftCol Now we have politically correct weenies. Please do not lump me into the whiny male category. To be honest, most of my superiors are female. I have no problem with it. Maybe guys in the workplace should stop being so overly sensitive, man up and get past the little things. It isn't an issue unless you let it be or it interferes with your advancement. Alas, as of last night even my beloved gym is now tainted by sensitive weenies. Here's the story. I arrive after 8, which happens to be a time when no one under 18 is allowed for liability reasons. My friend is asking about this new product they sell and if it would give him a small penis. I jokingly remarked that there is no way a supplement can alter a pre-existing condition. Everyone chuckled, the end. Well this one guy was evidently offended since he complained to management. I don't know why he felt offended, maybe he had a small penis...who knows. But since when has it become such a politically correct society that men cannot crack small penis jokes when it is just a group of guys around? Really?

JamesRL
JamesRL

I needed some supplies to complete a task I had to do for them. Our regular supplier is in the US, and I ordered from them. They only ship UPS ground, no guarentee on delivery day, and often held up in customs. They harassed me about when it was coming in. With ground you get no tracking info, so I'd call the supplier and sit on hold while they called UPS, who gave thema a vague approximation of where it was. They told me to find a Canadian source and get it shipped overnight. If I had known that upfront I would have done, but I also know if I have to pay for another order, we will have wasted money. The HR person is a friend outside of the office, but I lost my temper. Luckily she did take responsibility later. Sometimes being diplomatic doesn't help. James

alex304
alex304

Do you mean take it in the rear??? Sorry, the expression "cowboy up" has lost all meaning to me ever since brokeback mountain came out.

itadmin
itadmin

"The main and basically only difference between the two are women can carry babies and bleed for about five days a month and not men. Our brains are the same and everything else." Books have been written about the differences between women and men. Think about "Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars." The psychologists will have you believe the differences are due to upbringing, but these differences are much more deep seated. Computer people should know about code. That is what it all boils down to. We are made differently, women have two X chromosomes men only one, the second replaced by a Y chromosome. X and Y chromosomes carry different genes, hence the preponderance for some recessive genetic diseases in men. Some of our hormones differ greatly in quantity. Women have lots of oestrogen and progesterone, men little. Men have lots of testosterone, women little. These "unexpected" (like testosterone in women) hormones are secreted by the adrenals. Women are often given testosterone in certain hormonal treatments. It makes them feel more energetic and alive with a higher libido. I don't know if after some time on testosterone the bright light of reason eventually illuminates the dark recesses of emotion. There are very few men whose brains have been sullied by thinking what they should hang from their ears that will go with their new shoes. Such thoughts are normal for women. Women rarely wonder if adding that new oil additive to their cars will really make a difference. Women have smaller hands, feet, hearts and brains than men on average because, on average, they are smaller than men. We should look at the statistical humps when comparing large groups, not the outliers. Women can achieve so much more by being nice than by being bitchy. We men have a natural weakness for women. Luckily for us most of them are too obtuse to make use of that. Those that do wrap us around their little fingers.

Osiyo53
Osiyo53

"Have you ever listened to a group of men and a group of women?" Hmmm. I'm male, and 60 years old. Retired from a career of 23 years active duty in the military. Most of which was spent in deployed front line combat units which were all male in makeup. Privacy and secrecy among us, your team members within your immediate unit, was virtually non-existent. During combat deployment for front line units, one is rarely more than an arm's length from at least one of your teammates, almost never out of sight and easy conversational distance from many. You eat together, sleep together, shower together, work together, study together, plan together, daydream together, curse together, at times you cry together (and then get on with your mission), etc. Even when you have stand down time, and perhaps a little R&R (rest and recreation), you tend to play and party together. My point being, yep, its a pretty safe bet I know what men say to each other when they're speaking about women. I've been exposed to literally thousands of hours of such conversations amidst guys who had no particular reason to be guarded about their thoughts or opinions. In such units, amongst teammates, you might not always agree with each other. You may or may not personally like each other. But one does not back stab or snitch on a teammate to "outsiders". Unless we're talking about something like a serious felony, etc. For something as minor as perhaps a guy saying something about a person or group of people that I, for instance, might strongly disagree with or even be offended by; I'd either just ignore it while thinking "Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion." or say something like, "Look, guy, I've had quite enough of that. Don't talk like that when I'm around to hear it." Chuckle ... of course I tended to say that last a bit differently in reality, usually resorted to a bit stronger wording. MIGHT even have his throat in my hands at the time if it seemed necessary to get his attention and impart upon him the idea that I wasn't joking around. But generally speaking, most of the time, a teammate took such warnings to heart. Avoided such conversations when you were present if he knew you felt strongly about the subject. After all, you were teammates and relied upon each other to remain alive. Bottom line, no matter how you felt about each other inside, you covered each others' backs. FWIW, since retiring from the active duty military service and becoming a civilian worker. I haven't found what civilian guys, young or old, say and think to be any different, in reality. They just tend to be more guarded and cautious about whom they'll talk openly to. But get them into a bit of a socializing atmosphere where they're solely amongst only other men, feed em a few adult beverages, and all bets are off. Even many of the SCUM I have met and know (Sensitive, Caring, Urban Males), who are oh so careful and politically correct most of the time about what they say, let slip out some comments that'd almost certainly surprise may if not all the ladies who know them in such circumstances. "Both parties bash on each other." Of course they do. Its simple human nature. In and of itself, pretty harmless. Humans, generally speaking, love to bash or make fun of or put down other folk. Sometimes for reasons no more evil than simple humor and comedy. An essence of being human is to find both ourselves and others to be strange, foolish, sad, pitiable, comical and laughable at times. Then there is the other type of bashing. Meant to hurt, meanly put down, demean, make uncomfortable, subjugate, exclude or drive away others. That's a whole different issue and problem. "Men do the same women need to stay home cook, clean, take care of the kids" LOL ... I haven't heard that sort of comment out of any male in many, many years. Except in comedy and parody. (Excepting from some locals in other countries in which I served while on active military duty.) Mostly the kind of things I hear males say these days, when they're in "woman bashing mode" are things like, "They're all the same, always putting a man down, saying yah can't do a damn thing right. All men are worthless. All men are as dumb as a box of rocks, and thoughtless and uncaring. They're always saying they love who and what you are while trying everything they can think of, no dirty trick is too extreme or disallowed, to to make you change who and what you are. No matter how good you are, its never enough. No matter how hard you try, you're not trying hard enough. It doesn't friggin matter WHAT you say or do ... its wrong. Even on those very rare occasions when a woman thinks yah did something right, if you do exactly the same thing in the same circumstances next time ... its wrong. And yet very time you turn around they want you to spend money on them or do something for them they don't want to do or can't do. And if you don't? It sucks to be you. You just have to face reality. All of us men are always wrong, always lacking in whatever, always have evil intentions or motivations, and are utterly worthless and useless. Never have been, never will be." Chuckle, that's pretty much the gist of almost every conversation I hear among men these days when they're talking about women. Mostly my return comments to such talk is, "Yep, get used to it. Now show yah can take it like a man without whining. Might as well. It's not likely to change. At least not for the next century or so. Maybe never." ROFLMAO !!! "The main and basically only difference between the two are women can carry babies and bleed for about five days a month and not men. Our brains are the same and everything else" Might I suggest, since you say you are a student, that you do a bit more study in the subjects of bio-chemistry, physiology, genetics, human behavior, psychology, etc. Very solid and sound, and recent, actual scientific studies dispute what you say above.

boxfiddler
boxfiddler

the women that bullsh*t renders speechless are dim as the new moon. Right up your alley?

maecuff
maecuff

The proper thing to do, when faced with boorish, childish behavior is to retaliate in the same boorish, childish way? Being a woman, I can say that not one of those comments would render me speechless. Not even close, and frankly, they aren't all that clever. In fact, I don't think I know ANY women who would be rendered silent by those comments. And if they are? I'd say it was because they were above continuing the conversation.

sboverie
sboverie

I used the phrase to cover multiple meanings from payback to role reversal to appropriate responses. A jerk is a jerk regardless of sex, age, or ideology. The solution applies for either situation.

maecuff
maecuff

My husband is ridiculously attracted to me. :)

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

I like to think I surround myself with adults(age not necessarily maturity), believe me nobody else would last 5 minutes with my crowd if they didn't have shark thick skin. It's not that we are horrible to people, it's just that we spend our time knocking each other down a notch for kicks and don't worry about offending each other. I have really hammered on a few people over the years though that left in tears, which I usually seek to rectify, if possible of course. What I find funny is when someone tries to show you up and be a smart arse but doesn't do a very good job of it, I'll often ask when they are finished and, when they are, I let them have it back threefold. They then go running off as if you have broken the rules by humiliating them more than they were able to humiliate you. The joke you cracked was very innocent indeed, I'd have just told the guy straight up that he is in the wrong class as this one's for adults only and that he MUST have a small penis because he sure as hell doesn't have any balls to speak of. Even in a court though that shouldn't come to anything, unless he can prove you KNEW he really did have a small penis and you were conciously teasing him, he doesn't have much to go on.

JamesRL
JamesRL

...did anyone else hear a Beavis and Butthead "hehe hehe" when reading this post? And I dont' even like Beavis and Butthead. James

itadmin
itadmin

This is really excellent. Extremely interesting. When one works with groups, like populations, sexes, races, etc. one applies statistics. Many people say one can't generalize. That's simply not true. The discipline of statistics is based on generalization. It makes predictions about members of a group which has a certain probability to be true. Only in a totally homogeneous group is the probability 100%. Many people also use statistical outliers to argue a case. All that proves is that a trend is not true in every last case. Everybody knows that. They had a young lady on TV here some time ago who had a PhD in physics; long dark hair, very little make-up, simply dressed and as cute as can be. There are very few like her. Obviously, she hardly shows up on a statistical distribution curve. To use her in any argument about women, except to show that exceptions like her exist, is not logical. I used to play a game driving, guessing the sex of the driver of people doing certain not quite kosher things, like hogging the fast lane going slowly and trying to jump a queue. I could get it right in about 80% of cases.

Osiyo53
Osiyo53

First, while the majority of the evidence garnered from real scientific research does indicate a very real set of differences in the physiology, bio-chemistry, and mental makeup between males and females ... on average ... when talking about any one particular person, all bets are off. Generalities really shouldn't be applied to individuals. That said, there are however things that are "generally" true when speaking about the differences in males and females, as groups. Things backed up by repeated research and study by numerous independent groups. There are the obvious physiological differences, of course. Men and women have different sex organs and functions. On average women are physically smaller, on average when comparing men and women of equal size women will have more body fat, etc. There are less obvious, but still very real differences, also. For instance, on average in well lighted conditions men have better eye sight than women. But women tend on average to have better night vision. Men are far more likely to be color blind. Men also tend to have better distance vision and depth perception. Women have better vision at the red end of the light spectrum, and better visual memory. When comparing men and women of like size, males tend to be 30% stronger (especially in the upper body), to have larger hearts and lungs, and their higher levels of testosterone cause them to produce greater amounts of red blood cells. The larger heart and lungs plus greater numbers of red blood cells means that on average a male, as compared to a female of the same physical size, can output more energy faster and easier. For instance if a male runner is running along at a pace that's equal to 50% of his capacity, a female runner usually needs to exert 70% of her capacity to keep up. The difference does decrease when speaking about highly trained male and female athletes, but doesn't go away. The very reason we keep different world record sets for males vs females. The military services, not just ours (the US) have repeatedly done studies that all have shown the same conclusions. Take an average group of women and an average group of men, feed them exactly the same foods and put them through exactly the same physical training for several months ... and in the end, as a group, the males will still out perform the females physically in almost every category. And this is not based only on the fact that on average the males are physically larger. Its true even when comparing men and women of the same approximate physical size. Women have fewer slow twitch muscle fibers (the muscle cells that work best for endurance activities). Women are more sensitive to sound than men, and when women begin to lose their hearing, they lose it more gradually across all wavelengths, while men are more likely to lose it from the high or low tones of the hearing range. Women are better able to recall a face from the voice alone than men, and are able to remember faces better. Women may complain about a physical pain before men, but research indicates they are better able to cope with the emotional aspects of dealing with long term chronic pain. For example, after a day of arthritic pain, female subjects reported less negative moods than male arthritic subjects. Women also do a better job of employing strategies to deal with pain, such as relaxation, meditation or distractions (preparing for childbirth, for example) than do men. OTOH, men are generally able to withstand traumatic, injury causing events than women, at least in the short run. Their skin tends to be thicker, the bones both thicker and stronger, the extra muscle mass absorbs blows to the body better, the extra red blood cells and lung capacity aids them in keeping going longer if significant bleeding is occurring. Etc. Chuckle, it's fairly common for women to complain that males are hard headed. The simple truth is that generally men ARE more hard headed than females are. Studies by the military and doctors reveals that physical activities that involve long term, repeated impacts to bones and joints results in stress fractures to the bones of women far more often than is the case with men. After menopause, women lose the protection against high blood pressure that is afforded by hormones, which means more women over 65 suffer from hypertension than men in the same age group. Women experience more vasoconstriction, meaning the artery's ability to dilate is impaired. The net result is that while men suffer more heart failure before age 60 than women. The trend starts reversing after age 60. Among the older crowd, women are more likely to die from heart disease than men. And are more likely to suffer a second heart attack within a year of the first. Depression ? Women are two-to-three times more likely than men to suffer from depression in part because women?s brains make less of the hormone serotonin. Osteoporosis ? Women comprise 80 percent of the population suffering from osteoporosis, which is attributable to a higher rate of lost bone mass. STDs ? Women are two times more likely than men to contract a sexually transmitted disease, and more likely to experience significant drops in body weight, which can lead to wasting syndrome. Autoimmune Disease ? Three out of four people suffering from autoimmune diseases, such as multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis, and lupus, are women. Alcohol ? Women produce less of the gastric enzyme that breaks down ethanol in the stomach. Therefore, after consuming the same amount of alcohol, women have higher blood alcohol content than men, even allowing for size differences. Smoking ? Smoking has a more negative effect on cardiovascular health in women than men. Women are also less successful quitting smoking and have more severe withdrawal symptoms. As a note about addictions to drugs and severity of withdrawal symptoms, in general men tend to be far more likely to indulge in drug usage in the first place. OTOH, women tend to become addicted faster and easier, to have more difficulty in quitting, and to have more severe withdrawal symptoms. The differences between males and females isn't solely limited to the obviously physical, it would appear that their brains tend to be structured differently also. A few excerpts from an article about new neurological findings. "Men and women show differences in behaviour because their brains are physically distinct organs, new research suggests. Male and female brains appear to be constructed from markedly different genetic blueprints." "The differences in the circuitry that wires them up and the chemicals that transmit messages inside them are so great as to point to the conclusion that there is not just one kind of human brain, but two, according to recent neurological studies. " "One study, by scientists at Harvard Medical School, found that parts of the frontal lobe, which houses decision-making and problem-solving functions, were proportionally larger in women, as was the limbic cortex, which regulates emotions." "Proportionally larger brain areas in men include the parietal cortex, which processes signals from the sensory organs and is involved in space perception, and the amygdala, which controls emotions and social and sexual behaviour. "The mere fact that a structure is different in size suggests a difference in functional organisation," says Dr Larry Cahill of the Centre for the Neurobiology of Learning and Memory, at the University of California, Irvine." "Margaret McCarthy of the University of Maryland in Baltimore believes that hormone-like substances called prostaglandins, which help masculinise the male brain around the time of birth, may be partly to blame for the fact that boys are more likely than girls to be diagnosed with autism, Tourette's syndrome, dyslexia, attention-deficit disorder and early-onset schizophrenia." "A guide to the male and female brain control panels DECISION MAKING AND PROBLEM SOLVING: Controlled by the frontal lobe, which is proportionally larger in women. EMOTIONAL RESPONSE: Controlled by the limbic cortex, which is also proportionally larger in women. SPATIAL PERCEPTION: Controlled by the parietal cortex , which regulates how we move around. Proportionally larger in men. EMOTIONAL MEMORY: Controlled by the amygdala, which is proportionally larger in men. When recalling an emotionally charged scene, men enlist its right side, women its left. Men remember the gist of the scene, and women the details. SUPPRESSION OF PAIN: Controlled by the periaqueductal grey, an area of grey matter in the mid-brain, known to have a role in the suppression of pain in men but perhaps not in women." Chuckle, there are indeed very real differences between males and females. And not just things that are a result of societal influence, how the child is raised. Some of the stuff that's different is hard coded in genetics. Although, socialization ... how you are influenced ... by your parents and the society around you can either amplify or decrease the differences between males and females that have genetic causes in matters mental, emotional, and behavioral. Socialization, however, can never utterly negate the differences. In matters of simple intelligence level, I've not personally seen any reliable data that would suggest that one sex is inherently more intelligent than the other. Altho I've seen a couple of studies that point out that most women score, on IQ tests, in the middle or "norm" area. Whereas males are more likely to occupy positions at the upper or lower areas of the scales. And of course, generally speaking, each sex tends to be a little better at this or another type of mental task than the other. For instance, women tend to do better at multitasking than males. OTOH, males tend to have the ability focus in on a particular mental task, while having his brain filter out all other distractions better. As an example of this I once saw an experiment that "seemed" to verify some other research I'd read. Most men I've known can identify with the situation of having a wife or girlfriend complain, "You are always ignoring me, you practice selective hearing.", or some equivalent saying. So some folks conducted an experiment. A simple one. Two tape players were used. Each one had a person telling a story, two very different stories. The test subject was to sit between the tape players while both were played simultaneously, and was instructed to listen to only ONE of the stories as that was the one the person would be later quizzed on to see how much of the story they got accurately and could remember. Both males and females were used as test subjects. The results were overwhelmingly conclusive. Females had far more difficulty keeping the two stories separated in their heads, and often mixed up the facts and details between one and another. Seemingly, despite their best efforts, they had great difficulty in not mentally trying to follow both stories at once. OTOH, males seemed to have little difficulty in focusing in on one to the exclusion of the other. And in fact often couldn't tell the researchers much if anything about what the second story, the one they were told to ignore, was about. In short, the second story made it to their brain as not much more than background white noise. Their ears heard the sounds but their brains apparently did not even process those sounds into words and thoughts. It was just noise, and ignored. However they were accurately able to answer questions about and repeat parts of the story they were told to focus upon. This mental ability of most males to focus in on some task or thought process, while almost utterly ignoring other distractions has been shown in other studies. Some years ago I was reading an Iraeli study my their military. They'd found that female pilots in general were as able as their male counterparts in most flying tasks, and better in some. However, in the case of being a fighter pilot, they found that males had some distinct advantages. One, more males in genral had faster reflexes than was the case with females. And two ... perhaps more importantly ... male pilots seemed to have a better ability to focus in on a single set of tasks ... fly the aircraft and kill the enemy ... better than females. While ignoring other distractions, thoughts, problems, great personal discomfort, fear, or even injury. Not that they did not find that some women were able to be successful fighter pilots. They were just studying why more males than females tended to be successful at this sort of flying. Given that generally, in other types of flying women scored as well as males. The Israeli military's experience was similar in some other areas. They found that for infantry soldiers, while women tended to score as well or even better than males in accuracy of rifle shooting ... on the practice range. In real combat scenarios, males performed the rifle shooting task better. Seemingly able to focus better and more narrowly, when the sh*t hit the fan ... as the old saying goes ... more able to ignore all other distractions and thoughts. Not to mention, with their faster reflexes (on average) they made up for a slightly less accuracy rate than the females. OTOH, the Israeli's discovered that women tended to do significantly better, on average, in command and control positions as decision makers. That is, in positions were they were being fed a lot of information from many sources, often about separate events, simultaeously. And where they must then make decisions. Females tended to be better able to juggle multiple events and requirements simultaneously. In short, they did tend to be better "team" leaders. On average. As for myself, I've never believed that men are better than women, or vice versa. To me its is simply that they each have some differences, but more things in common than not. In some cases, one or the other sex will have an advantage at one task or another ... on average. However all people should be addressed and judged as individuals FIRST, then as members of one group or another second if that is pertinent at all.

neilb
neilb

Well, if you want a rational response to your attempt to one-up me with a bit of science then I'll point out that the involvement of glial cells in neurotransmission is well known. As for intelligence being related only to the number of synaptic pathways - also wrong. The speed of transmission is relevant. Neil :) I'm done because, anyway you cut it, I'm not really too interested in a discussion on neurophysiology with a self-professed arse.

itadmin
itadmin

"but the brain tissue is denser" That explains why they are denser. The densest cells in the brain are the glial cells that provide support, not the high fat content neural cells that has to do with signal generation and processing. Even so, they taught us nothing in medical school about female brains being more dense. Smaller, yes. Intelligence has to do with the number of pathways between neurons - the more there are the more signal paths are available between any given number of neurons. I know of no data indicating that female neurons have more synapses than male ones. That again brings us back to that deficit. Now doesn't that just call for an emotional, a opposed to a rational, response.

neilb
neilb

but the brain tissue is denser. There are more women at the 50th percentile and more men at both ends of the intelligence bell-curve. I can't see you from where I'm at... :)

maecuff
maecuff

Yeah..about your clever comeback? You need to try again.

itadmin
itadmin

"the women that bullsh*t renders speechless are dim as the new moon. Right up your alley?" No, I like them clever. They'd see right through such remarks and not be upset. Maybe even have a clever comeback, like "a cake will just make you fatter." Did you know that on average women have smaller brains than men? There are those who say that it shows. Of course, I'm not one of them. ;-)

maecuff
maecuff

Again..it would have to actually be clever. Not the lame ass one liners you posted. And really? Do you honestly think you're the lone pig out there? There are plenty of you. You are far more common than you think.

itadmin
itadmin

"Being a woman, I can say that not one of those comments would render me speechless." Yes, that's a very hard thing to do. Almost as good is the nonplussed expression of a lady who can't believe what she's heard. In this old world so sick with political correctness few women have come across something as pure and honest as good old male chauvinist piggery. Call the PC police. I've been naughty.

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