Software

How you know you've stumped a co-worker

Ever had a co-worker perform a disappearing act in the middle of an e-mail exchange? It could be classic avoidance behavior.

Ever had a co-worker perform a disappearing act in the middle of an e-mail exchange? It could be classic avoidance behavior.

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When my son was small and did something he shouldn't and knew he was going to hear about it from me, he would smile his impish grin and then squench his eyes shut. In his mind, if he couldn't see me, I couldn't see him and the whole issue would go away. Kind of a cute ploy from a toddler. Not so much from an adult.

I see a lot of the "if they can't see me, they can't use/blame/enforce work on me" mentality in the world of corporate e-mail.

Here's a scenario: You're in an e-mail exchange with someone and at some point you request some information or an action from the person you're e-mailing. All of a sudden, the e-mail string stops, dead in the water. Nothing but crickets. There's never a "I don't know, let me check on it" or a "My bad, let me see what I can do." When that happens to me, I don't know if the other person has stopped long enough to round up what I need, or if he's sitting at his desk squenching his eyes, hoping the whole situation will just go away.

I know that e-mail is a tool and a whole lot of people use it for the communication conveniences it offers over real-life conversations. But, in my opinion, courtesy should not be a casualty of that convenience. It doesn't mean you can abuse the convenience aspect of e-mail to shirk your end of a communication. If you and I were talking in person and at some part of the conversation, I asked you a question that you didn't know the answer to, would you just turn and walk away? I'd hope not.

About

Toni Bowers is Managing Editor of TechRepublic and is the award-winning blogger of the Career Management blog. She has edited newsletters, books, and web sites pertaining to software, IT career, and IT management issues.

137 comments
andrew
andrew

What's worse than this is when one of my co-workers white-anted me prior to his departure. When I asked another colleague for some files I needed to distribute to other users, she was vague and uncertain, adding that the files were available somewhere but she wasn't sure where. On her day off, I found all the up-to-date files I needed on the desktop of her machine. I copied them and let the matter rest. I have had no negative interaction with this colleague - it's all down to the parting comments of the departed worker.

zloeber
zloeber

If you are on a "string" of e-mails then you are over using e-mail as a communication device. I stop responding to all the inane little things that people start injecting into what should have been a quick conversation. I then try to avoid working with that person again to avoid wasting what little time I have in the day to complete the enormous amount of work that gets piled on a sys admin on a daily basis.

dukeusc
dukeusc

this article was not worthwhile. It brings up a problem and doesn't suggest a solution(s). This is akin to a co-worker complaining but not suggesting a solution... a way to solve the problem. Maybe the simplest thing would be to *say* that you should check the OPTION that allows you to get a "read receipt."

carlos.m.camargo
carlos.m.camargo

what you think it means. Or maybe it does since it is not a word at all. Are you all hiring for an editor? I'll do it in my spare time at a reasonable rate of $120/hr.

BetaMale
BetaMale

I might even leave before you ask a question. It all depends on how annoying to talk to you are.

Rpj101
Rpj101

I see this also as a problem with vendors. Dealing with even as I type this message -- a vendor who is giving me the silent treatment. Doh!

martine.k.smith
martine.k.smith

What if the person is just TOO OVERWHELMED with competing priorities, and yours simply rolled off the screen?

gjlowes
gjlowes

Toni, This post has struck two pet-peeve notes with me. First: The fact that people believe that because they send an e-mail (IM, VM, whatever) they deserve an instantaneous response is repulsive. Such an attitude demonstrates a lack of empathy for the recipient. Might they be busy with pursuits other than YOURS at the moment? Likely. Might the request / demand be a low priority for them? Possibly. Could the demand be unreasonable, or something that you could have easily done for yourself? Also quite likely. If the request is truly urgent, well articulated and reasonable (the responsibility of the sender) -then before adopting a 'the recipient is bad' perspective- make the effort to follow up and understand the situation. That is common courtesy. More often than not, if the sender is being ignored there is likely a very good reason - and it is NOT that the sender is the problem. Second: This situation is right up there with another personal pet peeve - a real productivity killer! That is the e-mailers who insist on always using "Reply All" - usually with a useless response such as: "Thanks". Do 20 people really need to receive an e-mail saying "Thanks" because a person is too lazy or insensitive enough to subject them to an e-mail saying "Thanks"? No! Does IT have to ensure delivery, backup, and archiving of these e-mails? Yes. What a waste. Easily 20% of corporate e-mail traffic consists of this type of "Reply All" mentality. Perhaps a recipients need to spend time dealing with such trivia explains why the truly important & urgent responses you were expecting - don't happen. Anyway... thanks for listening.

rich95134
rich95134

Sometimes I just give up trying to argue with people lacking the intellectual capacity to understand a difficult (for them, at least) point. Management has recommended this approach as being more conducive to political correctness.

wrlang
wrlang

Long strings of emails don't bother me because I don't email anything I need an answer on immediately. Why would anyone do that, ie email their police station to inform them of a robbery in progress? I gain an instant understanding of who has good email skills by one email from a person and those that can't effectively form thoughts into written words don't get email questions from me. When its complex I sometimes include a picture/diagram to aid in understanding, but only if the picture is easily available. I also rarely find myself needing instant answers because it's my job to plan ahead and I'm not involved in daily problem management. Having been a systems programmer, I was always annoyed by the foot-net where people would just pop in and ask a quick question. The boss pops in and asks for something within the hour, then 15 more people pop in and the hour is gone with no results even if you politely tell people they've wasted their time walking over because you need to work on a hot item. The interruptions are still there. I used to lay my visitors chair on its back in the entry way to my cube as a do not disturb sign. People make the mistake of not including travel time in the foot-net when measuring time to communicate. People walk about 6 feet a second so just walking over to someone's cube 60 feet away takes half a minute (there and back). Then there's the walk over to an empty cube, and the walk over to a person already on the phone, and the repositioning time it takes to get back on track. The foot-net is extremely ineffective and wasteful under many conditions. Calling up someone can be almost as bad as it takes time to dial, listen to the rings, listen to the 45 second voice mail message only to leave a verbal question that could have just as well been an email. Eventually we will get to the point of the characters on Stargate Atlantis where we will all have headsets constantly connected to a verbally collaborative workspace. But then the people who have trouble forming thoughts into instant verbal explanations will have problems as well as those who feel verbal communication requires a constant stream of words until someone interrupts them. Bottom line is that there is no perfect solution, so all the tools for verbal, written, and visual communications need to be available. Or better yet, eliminate all the secret information based on need to know.

Tomin8tr
Tomin8tr

Email is not for dialog. Pick up the phone or get off your butt and actually go talk to the person.

techrepublic.posting
techrepublic.posting

I don't agree. You have employees that may ask for information that they don't need, or aren't privy to by policy. But you get people that think by a continuous barrage of e-mails they will bug the other person into submission (like a child that continually bugs a parent when they don't get what they want). In addition they know that you can't "block" their e-mails, because of your job, so they take advantage of this. I'm a DBA by trade, not a Developer with delusions of thinking they are a DBA. I've had both Developers and users think they have the right for unlimited access on a production system, and even a development system, which they don't. People that aren't experienced with databases, and have improper access levels can screw them up. Take a System Administrator that pretends he or she is a DBA. It took me six months to straighten out the mistakes of a System Administrator (because of the time constraints I had) that they screwed up in one week. So just because a person ignores another, doesn't mean that they stumped the other one; it could just mean the requester is acting like a child, not listening to the fact that they aren't allowed to have the information; or if they get the information, this person is known to screw things up.

tomas
tomas

If after a second email I did not receive a reply, then a third duplicate email with my manager and the other person's manager prominently listed as "CC" almost always generated a reply. This almost always seemed to lubricate the wheels of progress.

mousejn
mousejn

It amazes me how much some people would rather email / IM / text someone instead of talking directly to them. I can ignore you allot easier in an email than if you are standing in front of me.

dkoch
dkoch

The point is well taken. My difficulty is the person who disappears from the known universe is my boss. I, as well as some key vendors, have voiced our concerns with management, but I think spitting into the wind would produce more meaningful results.

Osiyo53
Osiyo53

Not respond to a live, real time email exchange? Nope, never have done that. That is not to say I would NEVER do such. Depends. My inclination is to never be rude. However, sometimes being rude is the only way to get someone's attention and make a point. One of the problems with modern communications is that it is readily available and easy to use. Net result, often at work I have people calling my darned cell phone ALL the time, for every trivial thing that comes into their heads. This makes it kind of hard to get things done. And is especially bothersome when I'm in the middle of debugging some lines of computer code within a section of source code that might be several thousand lines of coding. I'm hot on the trail of figuring out where I've gone wrong (or where someone else did if the original code was done by others), have a few dozen facts and clues stashed in temporary memory ... and BINGO ... darned cell phone rings. By the time I've responded to whomever about whatever, whole train of thought I'd had before is gone. And it takes 15 minutes, maybe even a half hour for me to get back to where I'd been at when the phone rang. Too, often, phone then promptly rings again. Another idiot asking a fool question that's not even urgent in nature. Often, something the person wouldn't have even bothered with if that person had to get up off lazy butt and actually walk across the building to ask me. But ... it's soooo easy these days. Push the speed dial button on your cell phone, you know the other person probably has his/her cell phone with them. Same happens with text messaging, email, and so forth. 95% or better of all text massaging or email I get is purely trivial stuff that need not have been said or asked in the first place, or is stuff that could have waited until sender collected several inquiries into one, single message, or is stuff sender could have looked up elsewhere faster than, or as fast as, asking me. In the meantime, no matter how trivial (or purely BS) it is, I've gotta spend time to at least glance at it, or listen to it, to see if it is something that's actually important. Net result, family and friends, and those I work with know that I might very well not bother to answer a phone call. Might not even bother to respond/listen to a voice mail. At least not right away. If its REALLY important, they keep buzzing me. If I see that its the same number, then I'll assume it really is important and ring em back. WOE upon anyone that keeps my phone buzzing repeatedly and it is NOT important ... I have been known to be unbelievably rude in such cases. And don't much give a da*n who it was on the other end. Email and text messages? Anyone who knows me expects to not be answered any time soon. I generally will respond, but when I have time. Not sooner. I'm not alone in my feelings about this. I know a LOT of folks in business who've come to adopt similar attitudes. Chuckle, I'm BUSY ... actually trying to get REAL work done. Haven't got the time to respond to every stray thought that crosses the mind of everyone who knows me and my cell number or email address. How about gathering your thoughts? Realizing that not everything needs an answer NOW. And most especially, you don't need to be seeking piecemeal info from me. Get your thoughts together. Phone me once, or email me once with a number of questions all at the same time. Don't send me 20 emails all with single inquires about the same project, for instance. Send one, ask all your questions at the same time. Then go away, leave me a lone, I'm busy. AND ... kindly remember to not bother me with something yah could have just as readily found the answer to in your file drawer, or on the corporate networked drive, by a simple Google search, or whatever. I know, I know ... it's easier to just ask me ... But I'm BUSY ! I've got more to do than to spend all day with darned cell phone glued to my ear or browsing through an endless stream of emails and sending replies. However, if someone contacts me in live time (phone call or IM) and wants an answer to a question which I can not immediately answer. I don't leave em hanging. I'll either state that I'll look it up or otherwise get the answer and will call/contact them back, giving an approximate time frame. Or I'll tell em to go to h*ll and quit bothering me. One or the other. Usually the first. Unless someone has managed to really make a pest of themselves. Sometimes people fail to consider the person at the other end of the line. Either a phone line, or on receiving end of email, etc. Often said person actually does have other things going on and isn't just sitting there waiting anxiously to respond to every phone call, email, and so forth. Your priority ... is not necessarily the same as the person's at the other end. Especially, if you're not the boss or other person with hiring or firing authority. And sometimes YOU, the sender of the call or email need to remember that YOU are intruding upon that other person's time. All that said, if I have a problem getting someone to respond to my calls or emails, at least eventually, keeping in my mind that they may be busy ... I find it effective to go pay a personal visit, or make a personal voice call if traveling there is not an option. And during said personal visit, make it clear that I expect answers next time. Not necessarily IMMEDIATE answers, after all the person could be busy. But you'd better provide answers in a reasonable amount of time. Or send a message telling me it won't be until such and such a time and/or date before yah have an answer. Or, it's likely we'll be doing no more business of any sort. I don't deal with weasels. Be straight with me, up front. I'd rather hear an answer I don't like, than to have someone trying to avoid answering. That's pretty much how I put it to people. To their faces. Seems to work. They seem to understand exactly what I mean. Better than my just being mad at em but trying to play nice-nice and being politically correct. While bitchin to others that so and so is ducking out on answering my questions, or is just being rude. I tend to prefer direct approaches. They seem to work more often than not.

bratwizard
bratwizard

That's one of the trade-offs you get when you're too lazy to get up out of your $(&*$# chair to go talk to someone in person. As in all things there are equal and opposite reactions... you get the modern convenience of instant communication, they get the modern convenience of dodging your email. Works out nicely.

TravisFx
TravisFx

Respond within a timely manner etc . yes. Think about that. Most people I would hope would agree on what that means, subjective as it may be. Its amazing that some people have (hundreds?)of unanswered emails and others like Oz are seemingly from another planet where all is perfect or "you shall be ElIMINATED!!" No excuses! Wow man, u should be in the military, not IT. I hope that when you make a tiny mistake (if you are human) that you let us know so we can all be witnesses to your idealism and watch you ceremoniously fire yourself!! ;)

Bang Bang !
Bang Bang !

Greetings all, Stumping a co-worker is not in fact something that you discover lately after using emails!! Talking face to face as said before, and instant messaging or a phone call... it all exists within the space that makes the difference among levels and positions. a co-worker might be your manager, employee, partner, etc... whatever it is... you just need to know how to interact with him. Skills of working communication is needed as well as organizing ideas before telling them =) No one intends to hurt you, but they sometimes ignore answering because it's useless. all depends about the good explanations with short lines. Avoid using complex and sophisticated details... go straight to the point and I repeat, that does not only exist in emails. Good day.

markosimic
markosimic

Example you gave, describes much larger problem then convenience - courtesy conflict. My opinion is that online (non-visual) communication gain on popularity among youth more of the ability to hide their guilt (squench their eyes) then of its convenience. During my MMORPG carrier it was very common to see total disrespect of age difference, conversions were often ended the way you described (other party just vanish at some point), inappropriate words and behavior, etc etc. Overall, lack of "fear of punishment" and no consequences for personal act is cause of all that. If 90% of your online conversations are like this, 10% of those you made with colleagues (someone who you could met in vivo) is very hard to make in different manner. Also, "older" generations, who mostly communicated with people live, usually, don't have this "problem"....usually(!) :)

malalster
malalster

I believe in Germany it is LAW for workers to check their email when they get to work to ensure that internal mail from superiors cannot be dismissed. Also it ensures that client correspondence is not missed. I also believe that they made the law so that things like official warnings and even being laid off can be processed by email. Is this not the case in other countries?

tim2iron
tim2iron

This is exactly why presence information is probably the greatest timesaver of the current time. If you know the person is available and some indication of their location then communicating becomes so much easy and more personal. Pick up the phone and talk - far more effective.

kevinm
kevinm

That depends largely on what the question was that you asked.

jkameleon
jkameleon

http://www.43folders.com/2006/07/28/email-bankruptcy http://www.43folders.com/2007/05/30/email-bankruptcy-2 Email is such a funny thing. People hand you these single little messages that are no heavier than a river pebble. But it doesn't take long until you have acquired a pile of pebbles that's taller than you and heavier than you could ever hope to move, even if you wanted to do it over a few dozen trips. But for the person who took the time to hand you their pebble, it seems outrageous that you can't handle that one tiny thing. "What 'pile'? It's just a fucking pebble!"

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

How can it happen if yuo have email access and a phone on your desk? That part I don't get. If I send an email, and don' tget a reply in a timely manner, I send a follow up explaining that I wasn't sure if I had sent through teh firts and just wanted to ensure it was received. If it is received, I then expect follow up. I then pick up a telephone and speak directly to teh person or drive over or walk into their office etc face to face. People soon realize that when I need something done it is because I NEED something done and they better get on it or MY task will fail and I don't accept failure unless of my own doing, certainly not due to someone else's inability to work. I've had issues with another company where the guy just didn't want to reply to my emails as he didn't want me to succeed. I started BCCing HIS boss on my correspondence, after two or three requests for follow up, he was soon cornered by his boss and asked WHY he hadn't been doing his job. I don't work to make friends, I work to make momey, I have plenty of friends already (not that he would have been a choice of friend anyway) but don't try to sink me by not doing YOUR job, you'll never win at that game. If there's no answer, I BCC someone important and send ANOTHER follow up to teh first person asking for response.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

By ignoring THEIR workload and deeming your own more important, you are able to get enough work done to remain employed. So? How is that somethign to be proud of? Wouldn't juggling your workload AS WELL as finding time to simply acknowledge all emails and calls be a sign of greater efficiency and ability? Seriously,that's why IT staff never had any respect anywhere I've worked. It seems that IT staff feel their role i sfar mroe important than someone else's, when everyone else has learned to work with each other and STILL get their own job done. Time management was not something I learned in IT, it was somethign I learned from working in various other roles in the company. Perhaps time management and 'fitting in' with the rest of the company would be good add-on training to Admin 101, it's not like a field where social/team skills and internetworking is known to be strong.

Glenn from Iowa
Glenn from Iowa

...was to generate discussion. Which it appeared to do quite well. Although I do think the title was misleading, but that also was probably geared toward generating discussion. Which I usually don't mind occasionally, but I hope TR doesn't get in the habit of just trolling for comments.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

Any office correspondence should be replied to at least the same day, if not within a few hours, and many company's have that as policy. YOu seem to be getting the idea that people want you to solve problems immediately, that's not my point though. A reply, noting yuo have received and will get to teh problem is usually enough for most people, simply ignoring an email leaves the sender in limbo. I don't care who you are, how important your job is, how busy you think you are, how much or how little you get paid or what time your favorite TV show comes on, it takes VERY little effort to simply ackowledge correspondence and reply to people. If you KNOW you will be tied up until noon, it takes a minute to set up an auro reply noting that you are unavailable and will reply to all correspondence in the afternoon. If that's too much, then you should be working alone. "Reply All" mentality? Perhaps in your company it consists of 20% of email, but several companies I have worked with don't allow 'Reply ALL' emails as it is a bad practice ot begin with as often people will be copied that shouldn't be. YOu seem like someone who is just pissy and thinks his job is more important than others, especially when YOU deem other people's messages as trivial (I am sure many are) but trivial to you and trivial to someoen else are two very different things. By the way, isn't that part of your job? Helping people with seemingly redundant issues? Isn't that what people get paid for in an office environment?

sarah.buerger
sarah.buerger

You are completely right! This sounds like the kind of situation that should NOT be in email! There are WAY too many emails in this world!

TechRepublic
TechRepublic

>Net result, often at work I have people calling my darned cell phone ALL the time, for every trivial thing that comes into their heads. I feel you my brother. I was doing software support for field techs who would call any time there was the slightest question about anything - even when they should have known better. This is when a little bit of training/conditioned response comes in handy. My first question to them was always the same: "What have you tried?" "Uhhmmmm, nothing..." "Okay, try something and let me know how it goes." "uhhhmmm, okay(?)" Even if they try something completely asinine, they will have at least thought for two seconds before making the phone the second time. After a few calls like this, they get the idea that I will want to know what they have tried before calling me. Future calls start sounding like this: "I think there is a problem with the ____" "What have you tried" "I have rebooted the machine, cleared the buffer, reset the user settings...." These calls are a lot easier to take than the mindless speed-dial-induced zombie calls that can waste your day. Cheers, Chris

a1638735
a1638735

Wow,love the exchange. I think adding a dash of perspective on both sides of the equation would make it taste that much better with my vanilla moca as I check my 85th email in anticipation of a 35 min. sh@tstorm schedualed for 9:30am. Nice article, nice reponse. Salute!

quintus
quintus

unfortunately my job is on my rear much of the day, but not because I'm too lazy to get off it ;-) Amen to your last statement... since when should email be treated like a real conversation?

TravisFx
TravisFx

Yep. There a problem between the generations as far as communication goes. Us "older" guys, grew up communicating in real time with real people and went thru the ups and downs of all that goes with it. I'm glad I did. The newer kids have a different,, yo chill out dude,, attitude. I hate that myself. Look "dude", there used to be a saying that you probably didn't learn in daycare... "Treat others and you would like to be treated." Pretty simple eh? All the email tech, receipts, IM and all that other crap can't beat something as simple as that.

Bang Bang !
Bang Bang !

Totally right. All depends about generations and communicating live :)

PhilipYandel
PhilipYandel

If you have too many river pebbles in your pile for you to handle in a reasonable amount of time and with your best customer service attitude, then talk with your manager for some help. Ask for someone that can help winnow through your pile so that it can be cut down to a reasonable size, ask for time and work management training, and while you're at it learn some customer service skills, so you can better plan your work so it doesn't pile up and over-whelm you. I find it amazing when I go to a co-workers (or manager's) desk and see hundreds or thousands of UNREAD email messages in their in-box. I mean, if they haven't even read it how do they know what they are supposed tobe doing or what is being asked? Do they employ the "ignore the first 2 email messages" rule where the cutomsers set their priorities by who writes back asking two or three times for the same thing? I learned a long time ago that I do not like to see hundreds of things crowding for my attention in my in-box. I go through my in-box several times a day, usually when I have 20 or 30 minutes to 'spare', read each message and either respond, delete or file. If I respond, I either keep it in my in-box, or transform it into a To-DO or Reminder in my calendar so I can remember I have something I am obligated to get done by such and such a date and time. As a result, I have many many email folders for all my active projects and my active in-box usually can be viewed on less than 1/2 of a page. And NONE re usually marked UNREAD. There are many good training classes for how to manager your email and your work load, ask you manager for permission to take one (on company time if you can).

snideley59
snideley59

Sometimes it's not "all about you". If I'm across the street in the data center at console trying desperately to get a database back on line, you can call me, email me,email the president, I won't get these correspondences until I drag my sorry butt back across the street and park it in my chair. Then I will certainly drop everything else I'm working on and concentrate on your problem, unless your broadcast technique on escalating your issue has "officially" ticked me off. How many times in my career do you think that I've been working on something vital to company survival that some yappy little yellow tie, suspender wearing VP in charge of paper clips or some other necessary corporate function has escalated the petty concern that he can't email his son at college up the chain because he didn't get the immediate response he deemed necessary? BTW, when you "BCC someone important", you're hiding something. That's bad form. Get a grip on your own self importance.

Refurbished
Refurbished

You seem to be assuming you are the only person who really NEEDS something done. It probably is not true. In my experience, the one who makes the most noise is not always the one with the most urgent need. Incidentally, BCC'ing my boss would be a waste of effort. If I'm back-logged, I've already notified my boss of the back-log and of which tasks I'm doing first.

MajorGood
MajorGood

Its exactly that attitude that causes a lot of people to put your particular request on the bottom of the pile. If you are in a service organization like I am you get hundreds of emails per day asking for something. In this kind of environment it is first come first serve. And answering email is not always a top priority. So if you start BCCing my boss because I haven't responded to your email in 24 hours. I have a tendancy to put your request on the bottom of my pile and let my boss know its on the bottom of my pile. I am a firm believer in work with me not against me and the job gets done faster. There are times for escalation but most of the time it should be avoided at all cost, becuase it just slows down the whole process. We are all in this to make money but your project(s) is not necessarily as important to me as it is to you.

PhilipYandel
PhilipYandel

Oz, It would seem that where ever some of these people are getting their IT training should encourage them to take a course or seminar on Customer Service or Striving for Excellence. As IT has created more and more specialist roles, rather than the generalists many of us learned to be, I feel that we have forgotten to really understand who our customers are and what service we provide them. I worked at one organization that made each team in IT a profit/loss center. If your team was losing money by not having enough work requests to cover the overhead, that team would be put on notice that if they didn't turn a profit within 6 or 12 months, the team would be deemed unneeded and eliminated. It became very important to identify who your target customers were and to provide the best customer service you could to retain and grow your customer base. And as the team leader, I was free to use external resources if an internal group did not provide my team the customer service or task performance I expected. In the beginning, there were some tems that just didn't wake up and understand that everyone has a customer to keep happy, and those teams were disbanded and those team members had to figure out how to convince another team leader to 'hire' them onto that team. But once everyone understood that excellence in performance and customer service goes a long way, the business' opinion of IT went up tremendously. All of us in IT should work as if we ran our own business and actually needed our customers to keep us employed and in business. Phil

TravisFx
TravisFx

My bad, "dudes"..."Treat others AS you would like to be treated" See! communication is everything!

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

That's where you are missing the point, well one area anyway. In my position they insist on contacting me, I must be available. Blackberry, cell, email etc I HAVE to reply to my clients demands, no matter what I am doing it is an obligation, not just something I need to work into my day. So while you see my demanding response as being full of myself, you completely ignore the fact that I also said how I do the exact same thing, I reply to all correspondence, regardless of what I deem important. When I am contracted to represent a company, I must see that all of their clients are seen to and their needs addressed immediately. In that same sense, I expect the same from anyone working with me. I never ask anyone to do something I wouldn't do myself. The "yappy little yellow tie guy" is responsible for generating the revenue that is paying your salary; your job only exists because his job is. saving the company money is not generating revenue and you won't ever convince an employer it is, because it doesn't generate revenue, with the exception of designing and implementing e-commerce. As for BCC'ing, its not bad form, it is expected of someone in my position. If something isn't taken care of and I do not take all measures to enscalate it, it is MY fault that it was not taken care of. "Why didn't you address me so I could escalate it?" That's MY responsibility. This also iterates what I have been saying all along, people in IT have no idea what other roles require each day. Yet IT staff are always accusing other staff of not understanding THEIR job in the IT department. So, they don't care nor fully understand your job, that's why they just want it taken care of without delay and why they don't understand why you deem other issues more important. But face it, without them and their yellow ties, you don't have a job. Without you, they are still needed to generate revenue.

David.Flechler
David.Flechler

You said it all. All that I can say is.......Yeah! I wouldn't want to waste anybody's time being to wordy.

PhilipYandel
PhilipYandel

Your boss should learn that if he/she consistently has to deal with a back-log of work requests, tehn they better think of better and more efficient way of managing and prioritizing the work as well as assigning and reassigning work to balance the assignments. With a constant back-log, I would be talking with my superiors about justifying staff increases, even if only temporary, to augment the existing staff and better manage the work. Unless your groups holds a monopoly on a technology or knowledge, no organization can afford a support oganization that thinks it is the whole organization's reason for existence. How much revenue does your group bring into the coproration? How many paying customers are you directly serving?

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

That's just poor time management skills and you should be let go for not being able to manage yoru workload. ZERO patience for the incapable, and yes I've been a service writer and managed a 200 node network alone. Even on a normal workday, such as today, I come in to 65 valid emails in the morning, and an endless line of vmail messages. By the time I finish checking my VMail, there are new ones in cue. But I have good time management skills and have learned how to get to ALL replies within 2 hrs (as it was a MUST for another company I worked with). even when on the road all day, NOBODY waits more than two hours for a response, sometimes I can't HELP them in two hours but I will speak with them, on the phone and schedule a time to work on it if need be. ZERO, excuses, I have yet to see ONE position where it was not possible. I have fired many for not being able to manage the task, but have also hired many that could. It staff in general, especially IT managers, are the most incapable prima donnas I've ever worked with, when it comes ot proritizing tasks and understanding how an ofice runs and what needs to be done. Your job is NOT more important than others, your job is a forced company expense, not a revenue stream. "So if you start BCCing my boss because I haven't responded to your email in 24 hours." BCC is blind, you don't know when I BCC your boss. Any boss I've worked for would INSIST on a reply immediately, a lame excuse as 'someone is bugging me and I have other work to do" would see you out the door pretty quick for incompetence. You are lucky to work in such a slack assed environment with little to no time management expectations. If you can't do your job and get it all done in a day, then you are incapable of doing the job, period. NEXT please. Whether or not MY projects are mportant to you is irrelevant, YOUR 'important jobs' would be irrelevant to me too, get over it, you are not god. Just learn how to get it all done or someone else will. Seriously, you'd last less than 5 minutes in most of the roles I've worked in, nobody would even offer such a patheic excuse any consideration, you'd just be deemed immediately incapable and let go. buh bye, NEXT in line please.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

I agree IT is needed, having worked in IT I have also had to explain my value to the company as the bean counters just see IT as an expense. I understand both sides of the fence very well. Here's teh bottom lie, especially as an employer sees it. EWvery SEAT has a cost, many companies will break that COST down to cost per hour. So, how many dollars have YOU generated to pay for YOUR seat this year? $0.00 The rest of teh employees that demand your time, PAY for your seat, get it now? That's wht they don't give you any slack and want your immediate attention. THEY are held to strong obligations to generate revenue, and that figure is based on covering YOUR salary too. They deserve and should ger your respect and time with thanks.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

IT staf think they keep the company operating. What happens when computers go down, old forms, pens and paper come out. IT staff are a mere company expense, one that every company uses for efficiency between the revenue generators. IT staff are merely an unwanted but necessary cost to the company, revenue generators are far more important as far as the employer is concerned, they don't understand nor care about your work, and remember there would be no IT staff without the others actually paying their salaries for them. How much of your salary did YOUR seat cover this year? $0.00? Yeah, thought so, get back to work.

Refurbished
Refurbished

At the time I was refering to, there was not consistent backlog. The number and severity of work requests varied a lot from day to day. One day nothing urgent might come in and the backlog would get reduced. The next day one super-urgent request might tie up half-a-dozen people for the rest of the day. The latter did not happen often. We knew quite well we were not the organization's reason for existence. We also mostly knew what needed to be given top priority if we were going to please the client's management. To be fair, often these were work requests that would effect the client's clients.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

Are you suggesting you post here under two different aliases; perhaps so you have someone to agree with you when needed? And all the while you question someone else's right to post here? As for being harsh, my response was a direct response and in teh same flame intended contaxt as the post I replied to. Or is this another case of it being okay to dish it out but you must whine when it comes back? I didn't throw the first punch, but I'll stand up to throw the last.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

As for needing you so I can look cool, don't flatter yourself. In fact that comment is the epitomy of my comments to you. You think teh world rotates around you and that your time is far more valuabel and reelvant than anyone else's. And seeing as you asked, MCNE - Master certified Netware Engineer, I also provide/design products and solutions all the time, I don't SELL anything, that's not my job as you would like to imply. The clients I take care of [i]sell[/i] the products, not me. Your not even a grad? Your just a snot nosed little 'fix it guy'? Again I don't need you for anything, anywhere, anytime and never will, thank God. Would I piss off my plumber before the drain was unplugged? Yes,because I can do my own plumbing too. I can also sweep my own chimney, fix everyone's cars (licenced mechanic w/alternate fuels cert), frame in and wire a home (hands on construction and ticketed low voltage wiring for 8 years), design, install and program my own security systems (TQ),weld (TIG ticketed), run lathes and milling machines etc. (2nd year machinist's apprentice), teach sales seminars (Dale Carnegie Graduate and trainer), Draft (5 years of architectural drawing) and a bunch of other stuff (warehouse logistics, sales management etc.), as that's how I was raised, being told "you are useless without multiple abilities." This was only offered to indicate how incorrect your prior, 'holier than thou', comments are. I am pretty much self sufficient, despite the fact that I do rely on and respect the knowledge of many long time peers on TR that also have a lot of experience and training in their respective fields. Though I am starting to do less and less physical work these days due to spinal injuries, a limited IQ and lack of ability to do anything for myself.

snideley59
snideley59

What's an MCNE? Is that a hybrid born of a CNE (Certified Novell Engineer) and an MCSE (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer)? And what's up with the gender based attack, little girl? Gosh, get a grip, if you can, with your "limited IQ". When's the last time you provided a product, not a sale? And, I'm not a "little snot nosed grad", I'm a professional fix it kinda guy. You need me so you can look cool and successful. Would you piss off your plumber before the drain was unplugged?

santeewelding
santeewelding

Easily exceeding the 15 minutes to go from where I sit.

santeewelding
santeewelding

Go to bed and get some sleep. You are up way too late for all this. Your accommodation gives you away. Come back refreshed and abrasive. two ems in accommodation...way too late for me, too, excepting for cheering on a friend.

Osiyo53
Osiyo53

Reading your last reply I have a better take on your position. It'd seem to me that we would agree more than we'd disagree. In my world, I will read all emails at SOME point in a day. Usually in the wee morning hours as I'm a habitual early riser and enjoy a hot cup of coffee (several actually), the peace and quiet, etc. It also allows me to focus on the upcoming day of work, lay out a game plan, etc. At such times I will give some sort of response to all emails requiring same. Even if its only a note that I need more time/info in order to give a solid answer. During the workday I MAY check emails. Depends on how the day is going, nature of the work I'm engaged in, and so forth. However, as I said in a previous post, my bosses know and understand about that "may" statement. So we've an agreement. If there is something truly urgent, I will get a brief cell call alerting me of the fact. In which case I will certainly find some way to break away from what I'm doing ASAP and address the issue. FWIW, I have much the same arrangement with salesmen/account managers who I work WITH (as versus FOR). If you've got something truly urgent that requires email responses, go ahead and call me and let me know. If it is truly urgent I will get a response back to yah ASAP. I've no problem with that. When I work for someone and take their paycheck, I'm all about working for them and with them to achieve the goals of that person or organization. The salesman/account manager is part of that team. However ... I have had to remind salesmen/account managers that in fact I do not work for them directly, have other priorities besides theirs, etc. Muck with me, interrupt me with stuff that could have waited until I was less busy, etc and I can be less than promptly cooperative. Currently, I have 2 salesmen/account managers I have excellent rapport with. They get the picture from my view. If I get a call from either requesting me to check and read a particular email, I'll get right to it as soon as I can. And fire em off some sort of response. I don't mind those two doing this at all. They get it. And we work well together. They don't jack me around, and I help em all I can. On numerous occasions going so far as to working a lot of unpaid hours to "make it happen". i.e. Taking time out during normal work day to provide info package, or whatever they needed, then going back to what I was doing and working late to play catch up. It's the "other types" I was referring to in my posts. The ones who think their every email and request should be one's top priority, who bombard you with low priority trivia or strictly routine matters but who want immediate responses without considering the fact that you may in fact already have a list of 20 Priority #1 issues you need to handle. So it might be a while, or the next day before you get to the Priority #3 stuff such as their emails. For some, they may even wait forever. As I've given up on them and it'd seem we can't reach some sort of mutual agreement on this kind of issue. In the way we're organized, the company for whom I work, my direct boss is the Departmental Operations Officer. His boss is the Departmental President. His boss is the CEO. All others I work "WITH" as versus "FOR". Can't work WITH me, come to some mutually agreeable working arrangement? I fix it so that any requests you have need to go through the "chain of command", any that don't I ignore. This isn't a power play or demonstration of who has the most "pull" within the organization. I've no interest in such things, nor in office politics of any sort. Just couldn't care less. I'm an engineer and programmer. I'm not bucking for promotion since this is the kind of work I truly enjoy. Have been strictly a manager. At one time had 135 folks working for me, and an operating budget of 4.5 million annually. Did pretty well at it. In fact have several awards for my performance on my "I Love Me" wall. Along with assorted diplomas, etc. But one day it dawned on me that I was not really liking that job all that much. Hadn't been "hands on" in years. And I missed that. The pay was nice, but I just wasn't looking forward to going to work each day, nor enjoying the work. So I up and turned in my resignation for that job and applied for an opening back at the kind of work I LIKED doing. So that's my focus on things.

santeewelding
santeewelding

You come through. Abrasively, but you come through.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

And they wonder why they are looked down upon by all the other staff, why they have no social prowess, why they are always teh last to know anything and why they don't make enough money. I've hired and fired such whiners many times myself, talk about a tiring employee/waste of money.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

Just like the rest of your trolling replies. You simply take what someone says out of context, reiterate it in some ridiculous manner. You prove you have no idea what they were talking about and then comment on it's stupidity. Grow up, people here are beyond that kiddie crap. And people pay you to do 'something', for a living, right? Apparently in our eyes that SOMETHING is more than anyone else has ever done. What a tool.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

You're fired! Get it? There's no excuse for being too busy to address all correspondence and I HAVE seen several people for not following such policy or making pathetic excuses, as i have seen here. When it comes to gettign the job done you think it's too serious? What are you, 12? never had responsibility? Go sink your own company, I only work with people who can do the job. There ARE people who will and can adhere to such common policy. You'll catch on one day, it may take a few employers but I'm sure it will sink in that, just like anyone else, you can be replaced. Nobody is that important.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

Well you get a penny and a half change anyway. "unnecessarily interrupting the flow of work" You really missed the point here. I have never, at any time whatsoever, said that wasting time on trivial issues is worth time, never. If you feel I did, please post a link to that quote. My comments was that all correspondence, regardless of who it is or how busy you are, needs to be addressed in short time or else you are not conducting business in an effective manner. I speciically said that applies to MY line of work and should be adhered to by all employees. When I say I return all calls and emails in two hours, that doesn't mean you have to drop everything and take care of everyone's issues, but you DO need to respond. Interoffice communication is imperative and one person cannot be allowed to stop that flow of indformation, if you do you are not working effectively. All it takes is addressing people, and letting them know you received their call and will be addressing their needs as diligently as you can. There is NO reason that ANYONE cannot do that, I have heard people gripe that they can't then seen their replacement prove them wrong. The top CeO's of Canada's largest telecommunications company will ALL address ALL calls/emails within half a day, it's policy, and it can be done no matter how busy you THINK you are. As for the Business Development Manager, I currently have a6 figure offer on teh table for a software company that wants me to rep up here and in Seatlle. They want me to rep for THREE clients only, that they already do regular business with and ythey will always supply them with product, whether they have a sale rep or not. BUT, they STILL insist on paying top dollars to have a hands on rep take care of these three company's. the job does not entail seekign new business but simply maintaining existing business and offering single point of contact. That's what I do now and that's what two other companies have offered me work doing in teh New Year. It's imperative that they offer a single point of local contact at that level. Then again, if every company in Canada outsourced all work to India, I am still al licenced mechanic, automotive engineer and alternate fuel certified, so I have more than my share of fall bacls. WHat i see here is an endless stream of IT nerds tryign to defend their field and anyone expecting them to work to higher expectations is full of themselves and doesn't understand how much they have to do in a day. Having DONE the job myself I do understand and I also understand eth other side of teh fence, that's why I insist that all correspondence is addressed in short time, there is no reason for ANYONE in a company to not reply to all calls and email withint the same day. No excuse at all. These Prima Donna's that think they company wouldn;t exist without them have not worked in the industry longenough to understand what a disposable employee is, no matter who you are, you are disposable. I've heard people tell me that they are not replaceable, because they wrote specific proprietary code etc. But they can be replaced, as anyone else can, in a day or two. I find IT staff to be very unaware as a norm when it comes to business. When asking them to live up to the same expectations as other employees, the common answer, is you have no idea how much I do. Yes, I do have a good idea but it doesn't matter, you still need to get otehr tasks done too in order to effectively operate in a company. These dorks whining here simply have no idea what they are talking about, a bunch of people who think they are above working like eveyone else because they have a "special job". I say if they are so 'special' enter the special olympics and STFU, while the rest of us get teh job done. What a bunch of unqualified and overly defensive opinions. I see a lot more reason and understanding in yoUr own comments though, don't think I'm lumping you in too. Bottom line, and all I have ever said about the issue despite what others think: There is NO reason that ANY employee cannot respond to all emails and all calls in one work day. It is courtesy, it is prefessionalism and it is respectful of others you work with, I don't care what your excuse is, if you can't do it, someone else can and should.

Osiyo53
Osiyo53

"unless you are a software developer or run an ecommerce site, IT is seen by all CEO's ad a necessary evil, an expense, a red mark in the books that does not generate revenue. It is generally the expense that is paid for BY the revenue earners, withouth the revenue generators, no IT staff." Of course, and it is such an obvious point that it need not have even been said. In a typical business model, ANY expense that is not directly related to generating revenue can be viewed as undesirable. If a trucking firm had trucks which never broke down or required servicing, they'd eliminate their truck maintenance/repair departments. If office and retail spaces were self cleaning, they'd eliminate the janitorial staff. When I worked for a major telecom corporation, if there had been no governmental regulations they would have eliminated their "Regulatory Compliance" staff, which included numerous clerks and accountants, and several lawyers. If customers were compelled to do business ONLY with Company A, to the exclusion of all others, and HAD to have the product(s) produced by Company A ... Company A might well decide they had little need of highly paid business development managers and executive account managers and salesmen. If all the employees (including managers and executives) of Company A who used computer systems were expert at doing those functions typically done by the IT staff, Company A might well be able to ditch the expense of maintaining an IT staff. But that isn't the way things work, is it? Most all companies and corporations larger than small Ma and Pa businesses, where Ma and Pa not only own the place but perform all the necessary business functions themselves, find that they have to incorporate some NECESSARY evils into their business plan, organization, and staffing. Note that I emphasized "Necessary". And if some part of the business is necessary, even tho it does not directly produce revenue one would want that part to function well, as efficiently as possible, and with the least cost in manpower and materials achievable. I think we'd not have a disagreement about that? So unnecessarily interrupting the flow of work of such people as are engaged in accomplishing the tasks you call NECESSARY evils is counter-productive isn't it? One of the most counter-productive things a worker can face is having too darned many bosses. Or folks who think they're The Most Important Person in an organization, whose every priority and whim should supersede all others. And that the worker should drop all other concerns and priorities to address anything and everything a Most Important Person might toss at them. Yes, customer relations and servicing customer accounts is a very important part of business. I work with Salesmen/Account Managers all the time. But sometimes one must be realistic. Sometimes customers make unrealistic demands. It IS part of a salesman's/account manager's job to handle such in a suitable way and to make an effort to direct customer towards a more realistic resolution to the issue. If he or she can not ... perhaps he or she needs to be in another line of work? Or perhaps this is a customer who is more trouble than he is worth? We've dropped customers of this sort before, and have not regretted it. Generally speaking when we took a good hard look at the bottom line over a period of time, we've found such to be accounts that were not all that profitable in the long run. As compared to other, more reasonable customers. Ohhh, maybe profitable to the salesman's/account manager's personal bank account. But I'm speaking of the bigger picture, what is the company/corporation making on the deal in net profits. We've had just such discussions where I work. And as a result stopped doing business with a number of long standing accounts. Some of which were quite large and involved some well known, deep pocketed major corporations. But we found that while the accounts were worth quite a lot in revenues our final net was negligible and not up to par with our expectations and with what we were seeing with other accounts. The salesmen/account managers cried, of course. But we dropped em. And found that our company's bottom line improved. Just my 2 cents worth. And not worth a dime more than that.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

You don't have a clue what I do and you were wrong in your guesses. "I was hired to accomplish tasks which will directly earn revenue for the company" I'm a business development manager and executive account manager. I understand revenue generation very well. unless you are a software developer or run an ecommerce site, IT is seen by all CEO's ad a necessary evil, an expense, a red mark in the books that does not generate revenue. It is generally the expense that is paid for BY the revenue earners, withouth the revenue generators, no IT staff. I didn't bother wading through the rest of it, as you have already proven it was an unqualified opinion based on false assumption. Happy HO HO.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

Other than the little tiny IT world that you live in which you feel makes you important. YOu have no clue what busy is, yes I've done your job and many like it, and believe me, Being an account manager for teh largest retailers in eth nation is not a 9-5 job and yuo must juggle people every day. Your Sistine chapel analogy is so far off track it's laughable. I didn' tsya you had to paint the Sistine chapel in a day, but when Michael Angelo's boss asked him when he would be finished, do yuo think he waited two days ot tell him? No, he would have answered rioght away and told him how long it would take; instead of playing IT prima Donna guru wannabe and let him wait a few days. Oen think I noticed whether in IT or not, was that IT staff really think they make teh world go around. In actuality you are merely a company expense and that's why you get treated like trash. The company survived before you came along and can survive without you too, now a revenue generator, that's a different story. As your boss one day, he'll set you straight on just how insignificant your role is to the powers that be.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

When you were just a little girl? I am a certified MCNE, I have worked as the senior admin for Nortel, North American Telecom and three phone companies up here, so you can get bent on your little misguided rant. I've also been helping people here and supporting this site since before you were born, you have no place in teling ANYONE, who should or should not have an account on a public forum, what a an arrogant loser! Less intellectually demanding? I did your job, its a cake walk and mainly a f'kin bore to say the very least. At least being an account manager, for US companies that know that US reps will fail here, is somewhat challenging and takes skill and many years of experience and knowledge. You can train someone to do your job in a few months, EVERY little snot nosed grad is an IT guru. But it takes many years of on the job expeerience, business knowledge, psychology, accounting, graphic design and demographic understanding to be a senior account manager or business development manager. With your limited IQ, as demonstrated here by your lack of knowledge toward my field of work, and ability to do nothing other than enter keystrokes, (What else are you certified for? Wiping your butt? no, not even that)you have no idea what time management is, not a friggin clue. Believe me, that last IT guy I made work in the office for a day was begging to go back into IT because there was just too much work juggling accounts and taking care of people all day. You don't have a clue, little girl. Now go sit in the basement and enter some more keystrokes while feeling clever about your dead end life.

snideley59
snideley59

Enjoy the holidays all...my personal ones are Christmas and New Years. Yours are what you choose them to be. Enjoy them. And Osi, my clan tells stories as well, sometimes over and over. My grandfather started the tradition (in my memory), since he's passed on, my dad has done an admirable job at being his successor. As the oldest child, I'm assuming that the mantle will be passed on to me. I believe that I can be wordy enough, and forgetful enough, given sufficient time. Be well, all of you. Dan

PhilipYandel
PhilipYandel

Ray, Since I spent many years as a pure techie, I can kind of sense where you are coming from - total ignorance or arrogrance. Of course, anyone not actually writing code is worthless and doesn't contribute to the application or technical solution. The Project Manager is just an unneeded expense that restricts the real professionals into meeting deadlines, controlling costs, and keeping creative individuals from delivering really neat and cool bells and whistles that every application should have. The Business Analyst is another unneeded area of expense that stifles creativity and tries to hold the real talented and hard working technical EXPERTS from delivering what the business REALLY needs, rather than what they THINK they need. Project Managers and Business Analysts are not the same as a consultants that only consult. BA's need to understand the business goals, vision, procedures, strategies, and issues that are involved in the project, and then have to some how translate and explain those 'requirements' to the technical experts so that what is designed, built, tested, and delivered satisfies those requirements. I have a real problem with arrogant technical people that think that the business exists to support IT and not the other way around. With your mastery of understanding and business savy, I'd almost buy into the notion that off-shoring all the technical jobs makes good business sense. Phil

Osiyo53
Osiyo53

The message was sent on my own time, thank you. I NEVER read personal stuff, magazines, newspapers, sites like Tech Republic, etc while on the company clock. Nor do I engage in personal conversation on a phone with the wife, other family, or friends. When I'm on the clock ... I'm on the clock ... doing what I'm paid to do. FWIW, I also read fairly fast and can type at a reasonably quick rate. My business correspondence is not nearly so lengthy or wordy as things I type here in these forums. They're brief, and to the point. But, agreed, I do tend to ramble on in these posts. Sorry. A bad habit. Probably picked up in childhood as my clan tended to communicate ideas by the telling of stories, as versus just bluntly stating something. I would remind you however, that it is fairly simple to skip a post you'd rather not read. Happy Holidays and a Merry Christmas to you and yours. And to everyone else out there, too.

David.Flechler
David.Flechler

Oz, you said, and I quote, "If you can't do your job and get it all done in a day, then you are incapable of doing the job, period. NEXT please." Well, I'm not an artist, but I know it took Michelangelo a whole lot longer than 1 day to paint the Sistine Chapel. And I'm not saying that my job(or your) is creating anything as beautiful as the Sistine Chapel, but everything takes time and those that expect everything to happen immediatly are just expecting too much. Life is a journey...enjoy the ride. I have the luxury of working in Academia. When School is out life is slow, sweet and easy. When Schools in, I can get really busy. I seriously hope for your sake, that you can find time in your "No Excuses" life to, at least smell the fruits of your labor, even when the "profit" you struggle to gain, doesn't belong to you. It belongs to the guy who will downsize you because your dept. is only producing 5% of the corporations profits.....Wait that sounds familiar........ I am glad I'm not like you. In fact, no offense, I don't even like you man, and I don't say that about people. You and your ZERO TOLERANCE should take a valium and chill. Seriiously.... You should ask Santa for a perscription.

David.Flechler
David.Flechler

It must have cost your company millions for you to take the time to send this mesage. Not the mention the time you took to browse the responses before you replied. I agree with you on many of your points but you really went on and on......peersonally I'm glad that I don't have you as a client\employer etc...an e-mail could take all day to read, and even I don't have that kind of time. I know your way to busy to reply. My $0.2 Happy Holidays

raym444
raym444

..is that you don't actually do any work yourself. All you do is act as the middle man between the clients and the techs. doing the real work. Sounds like a tech. pimp to me. Maybe it's me, but I've never had much respect for contractors that just lease the work out to subcontractors, it just means that they're too lazy or stupid to do the work themselves, they just want to make money for doing nothing.

raym444
raym444

...get a life and stop thinking you're better than everyone else when you're actually worse. Hell, you're not even a tech. person, so you shouldn't even have a TR account. Stick to your less intellectually demanding job of marketing and leave the tech. discussions to the pros.

Osiyo53
Osiyo53

"But I have good time management skills and have learned how to get to ALL replies within 2 hrs (as it was a MUST for another company I worked with). even when on the road all day, NOBODY waits more than two hours for a response" Sounds to me as if you must have little other real work to occupy your time. I take it you must be a secretary, admin clerk, trouble call desk tech, or something of the sort? Myself, I was hired to accomplish tasks which will directly earn revenue for the company. To produce "product". In my case that means checking in on installers at this or that job site, answering their questions and/or resolving issues they face. Then there is equipment testing and commissioning, configuration and setups. Add programming tasks. Setting up networks and testing them, etc. Then there is the fielding of calls and questions from customers past and present. Who simply have a question about how something works. Or a complaint that something is not working, or at least they don't think it is. OR ... they're asking if I can add a new feature/ability .... translate that as a possibility of a new sale and added revenue. I tend to answer customer calls somewhat promptly. Seeing as how they are the ones actually paying our bills. If asked whether I think attending to the task of keeping a group of installers moving along on a new project, as versus sitting around with thumbs up behinds (at a cost to us that averages about $65 per hour each) while I'm feverishly and hurriedly browsing through a bunch of emails ... most of which will be of no particular importance or impact upon real business getting done ... is more important than worrying about whether some clerk, admin type, or bureaucratic type within the organization (otherwise known as a REMF - look it up if you're not familiar with the term) gets a prompt answer to an email. Keeping the "troops" moving and doing those things which earns us, the company, money wins every time. If asked whether or not my addressing and resolving customer concerns, inquiries, etc is more important than some silly "2 hour rule" ... the paying customer always wins out. Last time I was bugged too much and too frequently my a REMF type about answering phone calls or emails more promptly, and NONE of those were items of true emergency nature ... I made my own phone calls. My bothersome REMF had "Manager" in his title, had his very own office (not a cubicle), and a parking spot with his name on a sign reserving it just for him. And I'm sure he thinks his every whim and thought is very, very important and better than that of anyone beneath him in the pecking order of things. But the fact was and is, I don't work directly for him. I do however work for another fellow who has an equally important sounding title. And I had a long talk with said fellow. And emailed him detailed records, an accounting, of what it was costing HIM for me to keep taking time out of my daily work in an effort to please the other REMF. I haven't a clue as to what happened back in the office, don't care. What I do know is that the annoying ... and clueless ... fellow disappeared out of my daily life. And know that he was told that any friggin inquiries, thoughts, etc he had had better be routed through MY boss for screening. And if my boss thought whatever should be allowed to get through to me, he routed it, with his own notes and comments and a time frame for a response by me which he thought to be reasonable. Or simply with an attached note asking me when I thought I'd be able to get to it. It resolved a lot of issues. And let me spend more time getting my real job done. To the profit of the company. BTW, I doubt if you could teach me much about time management. Been through all those classes, way back when. Starting in the early 70's, with refresher classes on a regular basis since then. And have had a consistent record of REAL, MEASURED productivity that's placed me in the top 5 percent of my peers through the years. As measured by several employers. Employers ranging from the current one, the smallest outfit I've worked for with about 800 employees. To a major telecom which had 125 thousand employees when I last worked for them. To a governmental agency that had over a million folks working for them. I have little tolerance for things which waste my time and efforts, tend to spot them in a hurry. I'm hired to get real world things done, not play office politics or oneupmanship. And don't tolerate such nor people who try to get me involved in such. "If you can't do your job and get it all done in a day, then you are incapable of doing the job, period. NEXT please" I've run into this attitude before. Usually it only takes moments for me to ascertain the fact that the speaker really hasn't a friggin clue what my job really is, what it is like, how it really gets done, and what it takes to get it done. In fact, it's one of the major reasons I quit my previous employer. The government job I retired from. Then I went to work for that major telecom. Liked working for them, worked for them 10 years. Good management and managers, most of em. The majority had come up the ladder from the field. Then the parent corporation sold a portion of their business to another corporation. That portion of their business was VERY profitable. But in the overall scheme of things it only represented about 5% of their revenues. And at the corporate level they decided to concentrate efforts and resources on their core business. Sold that part. Which included me. New management and execs came in. A very different breed of characters. They were all about spreadsheets and bottom lines. Most were MBA's. Heavy on theory and number crunching. Knew DAMNED little about the actual business we engaged in on a technical level or with any understanding of what the actual engineers and technicians actually did on a daily basis or how they got things done. Chuckle, one day I found myself getting chewed out for something that wasn't even part of my job description. On another occasion I found myself being lectured by an executive about how I should be actually doing my job. Idiot was clueless. If I'd actually done it the way he'd said, would have taken us twice as long, cost significantly more in materials, and the results would have both violated certain codes and would have been less than optimal in performance and MTBF. So I kindly informed him he could KMA, gave em my 2 weeks notice, and went job hunting. I was employed again within 10 days. Making better money. Not a LOT better. But better. Still working for that new employer. Who doesn't pretend, at the management and executive level, that they know my job better than I do. Of course they don't. If they did, why would they need me? Why not just hire some newbie smuck they could pick up for a whole LOT cheaper. I'll save yah guessing as to why they put up with me ... it's because I'll out produce, in marketable value, two or three of those newbies. And can do things they CAN NOT. In our company, the thought predominant at the management level and above is to keep the worker bees (that includes installers, techs, engineers, CAD folks, various support departments, etc ... yah know, those who actually turn out the products the company sells) busy doing what they do best. And that which they know more about than some manager sitting in his office with fancy title plate on his door. That goes all the way up, the attitude, to the CEO. He himself is not big on email. Has to deal with it, of course. But thinks it is often used excessively and needlessly. Directs emails towards anyone lower than senior management/executive level VERY seldom. Usually only to issue a public pat on the back or something. When he needs to, and an email is directed towards lower management, an engineer, a technician, etc with an inquiry or other content that requires a response he tends to give a liberal time frame for the response, and to include a note that if the time frame is not doable for some reason, kindly reply with a note proposing a different one. Same thing when he is out and about, which he tries to do as much as possible. He'll stop in and ASK, "Hey, do you have a few minutes? Or am I interrupting something important?" And he MEANS it. He literally wants YOU to make the judgment call as to whether or not what you're currently engaged in doing is a critical matter, might cost the company significantly if you interrupt it, might delay successful completion of an important project or part of it, etc. His attitude it that those "on the front lines" as he calls them are as important, or more so, than the REMFs (upper management, etc). They're the ones actually making the money for the company. Whether it be a simple tech, an engineer, project manager, warehouse supervisor, accounts receivables clerk, or that IT guy trying to fix the problem with a networked printer or trying to get a server back up and running. I think the fellow might be on to something. Seeing as how we (the company) have been very profitable consistently, even in slow economic times with bitter competition. Now, I may be misunderstanding the tone of your post. But with what I'm getting from what I read, you'd not have to tell me "Bye" or "Next". I'd have been gone already. Probably. Would have figured you certainly didn't need me. Obviously you know more about my job than I do. Fine, you do it. I'll go find someone who actually needs my services and abilities. I'm no burger flipper or assembly line person inserting Bolt A in Hole B, not that I'm looking down on such folks, somebody needs to do those tasks. Its honest work. But what I do, what I can do is not something that can be taught to another in a matter of days or weeks. Not even in a matter of 4 or 5 years. A kid coming into my line of work with 4 or 5 years of formal, specialized schooling under his belt is considered a raw trainee. Because he is. It will take him another 4 or 5 years of actual experience to get to the point where he'll be given any assignment of significant difficulty without someone like me looking over his shoulder. That's not my being a primadonna - that's just the facts. Even at 8 to 10 years of schooling and experience, he'll sweat and stress over things I'll make look easy if I do them. Because I know my job. I know the things that aren't in those text books in college or technical schools. I know those things the teachers didn't know because they teach ... instead of doing out in the real world. I know the little tricks and methods that make the complex more simple, the hard easier, and the slow go a bit faster. When facing roadblocks, problems, and issues ... odds are pretty durned good that I've seen the same or similar before, often many times, and have some idea of how to handle them that has proven to be successful in the past. And ... it is more than likely that I know more about how to do the job I was hired for, and how to MANAGE MY TIME at least as well, and probably better, than some office bound REMF. Yah now the type. The paper shufflers. Who figure that as long as all the paperwork looks good, is properly done and filed, dated properly with correct "Time In" and "Time Out" stamps, all the "i"'s are dotted and all the "t"'s are crossed ... that they've really accomplished something because that's the most important part of any job or business ... nothing else was as important. Not that such things are unimportant. But one must keep sight of the bigger picture. The current Big Boss I work for, the company CEO, understands these things. Not long ago we had a little crisis as concerns one project. Well, maybe it wasn't so little. Had a VERY upset customer. And as that customer had not yet signed that $1.5 million check, I was hopping like a frog on a hot skillet to fix things up and make things right to make customer happy. CEO got wind of the fuss, folks above my level only had a faint clue as to the details of the issue, and not a lot of technical understanding of what they did know about it. So I got a personal call from the CEO. Was up to my ears in damage control. Troubleshooting some faulty equipment (or improper installation, I didn't know which at the time) AND trying to do a hurried rewrite of a couple subroutines in a program. While upset customer was hovering around behind me (senior manager for customer) since they had a big grand opening of new facility that was to occur the next day. I told CEO I was pretty sure I had a handle on it, but really didn't have the time, nor inclination, at the moment to go into details with him, go away, I'll send you a detailed email later when I have the time to explain what happened, current status, etc. I could hear the hesitation in his voice, he WANTED to ask, to know more, but he made the wise choice and simply said, "Okay, if you are sure you can square it away, or at least get things working temporarily. Then you and your guys go get some sleep. But do send me that email as soon as you can after that. By noon, do you think you can get it to me by then?" I told him I'd have something for him before then, then hung up.

gbb0330
gbb0330

Oz you are so full of yourself - typical incompetent sales/marketing bofun. If I understand you correctly you expect somebody who does not work for you, to immediately drop everything, and take care of your problem. Good luck with that !!! And if they don't you will try to bet them fired, by cc-ing their boss. - Zero excuses - Next in line - again good luck with that too - because there is no line. P.S. you can get a lot more done by not being an asshole - especially if you are not the one who signs the check.

PhilipYandel
PhilipYandel

In most cases, I am dealing directly with my business customer or partner to either provide research, estimates, or some other informaton so that thier projects can go forward. Being the on the front lines with our IT customers, I am obligated to represent their interests and needs to the rest of the IT organization. The development, testing, support, and deployment staff are my sub-contractors in my effort to bring in a project for my client. I've found that there are increasing numbers of self-important IT 'professionals' that provide subcontracting services with such lack luster customer service skills, I would much rather hire on an outside contractor to give much better response and service. While my priorities are not necessarily yours, as my subcontractor, and sometimes one with a monopoly on the internal job, you better learn who your customers are and how you can best provide them with the very best customer service you can, or I will do whatever I can to put you out of business and replace you with one of my off-shore partners who are hungry for new work. Customer service - Know Thy Customer!

MajorGood
MajorGood

You just proved my point exactly! You take this way to seriously and try to step on anyone who gets in your way. Drama Drama Drama

santeewelding
santeewelding

You wouldn't be interested in the jolly Santa job I have lined up for you?