Leadership

The ten hottest certs for 2008


Michael Trapp, writing for knowhow-now.com, has composed a list of what he believes will be the hottest certs for 2008. The list is based on job growth, sales of certification training material, and "a little guess work."

1. MCP (Microsoft Certified Professional) 2. CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Associate)

Trapp reasons that most network administrator jobs right now are IP related and they are in more demand at a higher professional level as compared to Microsoft Certifications.

3. MCPD (Microsoft Certified Professional Developer)

Demand for these developers is up over 80% compared to last year. Trapp says there are only a little over 3,000 currently with the certification.

4. SCJP (SUN Certified Java Programmer)

Trapp says that a Java credential is one of the most valuable credentials that a programmer or developer can have, since about 70% of business entities' development projects are done through J2EE.

5. CISSP (Certified Information Systems Security Professional)

With CISSPs earning $94,070 a year on average, it's easy to see why Trapp puts this one on the list. (Note that the exam costs $500, lasts up to six hours, and includes 250 multiple choice questions.

6. Comptia A+

By far the most popular entry level certification.

7. Comptia Network +

A good cert to have since the network systems and data communications analyst is ranked Number 2 on the most in demand jobs list.

8. MCTS SQL Server 2005 (The Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist)

Trapp thinks SQL Server 2005 is going to be hot next year since many companies are switching to SQL Server 2005.

9. RHCE (Red Hat Certified Engineer)

RHCE is called the "crown jewel of Linux certifications." According to a survey by Saugatuck Technology and BusinessWeek Researce Services, about 25% of enterprises will be running mission-critical business applications on the Linux open source operating system by 2009.

10. Comptia Security+

Growth in Security+, which covers topics like communication security, infrastructure security, cryptography, access control and authentication, shows no signs of slowing down. According to Trapp, "Comptia's Security+ Credential is must have in today's world."

About

Toni Bowers is Managing Editor of TechRepublic and is the award-winning blogger of the Career Management blog. She has edited newsletters, books, and web sites pertaining to software, IT career, and IT management issues.

65 comments
bg6638
bg6638

First and foremost, anything less than a bachelor's will get you nowhere in today's IT market! An AA is a complete waste of time unless you are lucky enough to be able to transfer your credits. 1. MCP -> A single MS cert by itself is useless! 2. CCNA -> dime a dozen, need a CCDP\CCNP or better 5. CISSP -> You need more certs than just this! 6. Comptia A+ -> Waste of time and money 7. Comptia Network + -> same as above

guillenkma
guillenkma

I REALLY need to respond to this garbage. bg6638 says, "First and foremost, anything less than a bachelor's will get you nowhere in today's IT market! An AA is a complete waste of time unless you are lucky enough to be able to transfer your credits". I say, "BULL". I am somewhere in today's market making DAMN good money with an AA in Electronic Engineering. My employer was very interested because I had the willingness to do whatever it took to help the business grow. bg6638 says, "1. MCP -> A single MS cert by itself is useless!" I say, I started in the IT business world with 1 cert (MCP). Since I have acheived more. bg6638 says,"2. CCNA -> dime a dozen, need a CCDP\CCNP or better". I say, Maybe so but CCNA is a great place to start as long as there is continued education (cert or degree). bg6638 says, "5. CISSP -> You need more certs than just this! I say, companies are REALLY looking and paying for this cert. They are sending their people to classes and re-imbursing them or outright paying for them to get this cert. The industry DEMANDS it and employers recognize it. bg6638 says, "6. Comptia A+ -> Waste of time and money". I say, it is a great foundational start to a career in IT. Don't knock it. bg6638 says, "7. Comptia Network + -> same as above I say, same as above. I now work for a company that pays me very very well, doing work I never thought I would do and I started with one cert. The road ahead looks GREAT. bg6638 has blinders on or is jealous of another person that has made it with the certs he downplays when he feels he should have gotten the position. The uptopia is a hybrid IT person with some degree to develop the problem solving aptitude, some cert(s) to show the employer the vendor knowledge and industry practice and finally some business saavy to show clients that you can do what they require you to do. guillenkma says

bg6638
bg6638

Garbage?? NO! I have an AA and 20+ years of experience in COBOL & xBase programming. Add an add'l 10 as a SysAdmin/IT Mgr. using Win9x, NT, Win2k, WinXP, Exchange 5, 5.5 & 2003, Proxy-ISA, and SQL Server 6.5, 7.0, and 2000. Sprinkle in some MacOS 7-9, OSX, and AIX 4.2. I also have not been able to find a job since my last employer went bankrupt. After being rejected by 9 recruiters because I don't have a bachelor's, I finally got one at least to tell me what I needed to get A "job" in IT. Here goes: Bachelor's degree (with Master's preferred), along with an MCSE, CISSP, PMP, RHCE, AND at LEAST a CCDP. Preferred add'l certs: MCTS in C++, C#, VB.NET, and a CCVP.

guillenkma
guillenkma

bg6638, I don't mean to drag you through the mud in anyway. I see you have plenty of experience AND formal education AND certs. GOOD ON YOU. I also noted your profile and you seemingly POST to articles in a negative fashion, showing a "why me attitude". Consider doing an assessment of your priorities. If you want a job, paying good money, then you will likely need to move to where the job is. If not, then you are bound by the economic state of where you are. The average for an MCSE is upwards of 75k/year. This is a fact!!! You will need to move to where the money is.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

Jesus H Christ, I helped kill one of those in 1989. Inventory and Purchase Ledger :D Never did Cobol, got taught Speedware, then I exited stage left to go work on VMS boxes.

bg6638
bg6638

>>Who's going to pay what he's asking? I've seen this type of listing before; the starting pay is "$10-$15/hr DOE" isn't it?

NickNielsen
NickNielsen

Who's going to pay what he's asking? I've seen this type of listing before; the starting pay is "$10-$15/hr DOE" isn't it? :^0 Just after the turn of the century, I saw a job listing with requirements of a BA/BS, MCSE, MCSDs in Visual Basic and Visual C+, and CCNA, A+, Network+, and BICSI Technician certifications. The listed job was to install, configure and maintain network infrastructure in properties owned by a management company...starting at $13.50/hr. Just out of curiosity, I called the reference number and was told the software certifications were required because the network management software had been coded in VB and C+, the server OS was WinNT, and there were PCs connected to the network. After some determined Q&A, I determined the management company contacted this agency and asked for a "BICSI technician." Everything else had been added by the agency as a "screening" (exclusion?) tool. I wonder if they ever filled that job... Dude, stop messing with recruiters. Most of them aren't intelligent enough in IT to understand exactly how stupid they sound to us and in almost 40 years working for a living, the only remotely ethical recruiter I recall was my Air Force recruiter (he didn't lie outright, he just didn't tell me everything!).

NickNielsen
NickNielsen

Why should I get a bachelor"s? I'm doing just fine with an AA and A+. Of course, I also have over 30 years of electronics/computer/communications/information systems/IT experience and the troubleshooting skills to show. To be honest, it sounds like you have all those certs, but had to roll out the bachelor's to satisfy your employer's HR.

shawn_h
shawn_h

I've been looking through the feedback previously entered. One glaring deficiency should be noted. The certification process produces someone fully trained in industry proven best practices. Those who do not take the certificaiton exam cannot establish in any meaningful way that they know these practices. In other words, they very well may represent what we all know of as the bane of the IT world; the ad hoc technician. Face it, folks. If you don't know how to document your network, you are an ad hoc technician. If you don't know how to make your network consistent, you are an ad hoc tech. The certification establishes that you studied and SHOULD be able to inflict a configuration management or managed solution on any situation you are confronted with. The job isn't just troubleshooting. It isn't just keeping your network/servers/users/software/databases up and running; it's making sure that when you fall over dead, the techie who replaces you can take your documentation, read it, and know what to do next. We have all seen, known and endured the results of efforts by the ad hoc system administrator, network manager or help desk operator. It is pure hell. It is even worse trying to explain to them what they have done wrong; best to give them an authoritative text they MUST read, understand, and be tested upon than to try to get their arrogant, know-it-all, ad hoc behavior changed. After all, the book author has established their authority, which is more than ad hoc boy/girl will ever believe of you. We also know and have suffered under the cert mill 'guru' who fully refuses or is too lazy on the front end to follow industry best practices. Thus, they make everyone in the organization suffer on the back end. One of our greatest challenges, as a certified technical expert, is to convince our employer, boss and confederates that we will save far more on the back end than we are spending right now doing a job right. So, what is the solution? Employers (yeah, like the HR girl is ever going to read this - sigh), need to establish with their incoming CERTIFIED employees that they will, indeed, put in the front end work instead of leaving themselves open to correcting their undocumented, unmanaged, ad hoc systems on the back end. I would recommend that part of the interview process should be the simple question, "How would you set up system XXX?" The answer should ALWAYS include 'configuration management' and 'documentation.' The "HR girl" doesn't need to understand anything about linked lists, TCP/IP or Diffie-Hellman, just so long as 'she' can pick out those items from the applicant's rhetoric.

shawn_h
shawn_h

I would submit that you point is ill-made. True, a photoshopped scan of a certification plus key words and tricky phrases might fool the uninitiated. However, any HR department >worth working for< will verify your certification. Game over for T-O-N-Y H-O-P-K-I-N-S. CompTIA, Microsoft, Cisco, etcetera, would probably take a dim view of one who forged their certificate. You did notice that all of your certificates include a registration number, did you not? On the other hand, how are you going to get to know the key words and tricky phrases without studying content? Finally, any HR department worth working for is going to have the IT department staff the second interview. They will be less prone to accepting a neophyte posing as a professional.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

naivety in your post. Everybody shortlists candidates so if HR girl is letting them through based on buzzwords, she's passing along some nerks for you to throw out. More to the point, her lack of understanding has thrown some much better candidates into the square file, who you are likely never to hear of. Last interview round shortlisted nine candidates for telephone interviews from the recruiters pack of 'suitable' candidates. Six were lying their ass off. They had the buzzwords and the paper and they were all crap. The prosecution rests, I suggest you get a priest for your client. As for the GAME OVER bit. Nobody is going to fail me, at what I claim I can do. They might say I'm too old, they might believe in the paper myth, that I'm too expensive, too tactless, too northern... A liar, never. I've never had any bits of paper to hide behind. No certs and no degrees, twenty years and counting undiscovered incompetence.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

So I photoshop a CERT, and use some KEY phrases in the interview and get the job? Is this what you wanted to say?

duval.costa
duval.costa

Great article. Just two quick questions: why did not you comment on MCP and what was the criteria used to rank the certs - importance, prestige, alpha (guess not), random? tia and rgrds, dac

bob_76_76
bob_76_76

RE: The ten hottest certs for 2008

tosin2ade
tosin2ade

hi everyone, please can i know wat comptia+ security is, and if it is applied in nigeria because i am quite confused as to what field of IT to go into because am just a fresh graduate (B.Sc) computer sc & IT, was thinking of database administrator but it wasnt listed as the top list in 2008. thanx for your help guys

adewalexdavid
adewalexdavid

It's not among the Top ,its the foundation into IT with the knowledge of security.

etkinsd
etkinsd

those who need credibility for their lack of skill or lack of talent, or because they really don't have the personality (problem solving, like to solve puzzles, analysis mindset, etc) needed in this industry. No offense, but I think a Masters degree in Computer Science, (not Software Engineering), Computer Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Physics, or Mathematics is way more useful to the employer than a certification. Kind regards,

Nimmo
Nimmo

[quote]those who need credibility for their lack of skill or lack of talent[/quote] I can't agree on that nothing beats particle experience and having a certification proves to employers, colleagues, and other professionals in the IT community that you have the knowledge and know how. Sorry I just realized I posted under the wrong area, this should be under the top level. Why would a reputable company like Cisco or Microsoft etc.. just hand out certifications to any person who wants one, you have to not only know the theory behind the technology but also be able to show it in practice. I am not saying that a college degree means nothing I am just stating the fact that a lot of employees who are looking for someone to hire (unless they want to train them in house) will look more favorably on an industry certification then someone who only has a college degree. Not only that but I think you will find that the IT professionals that are getting the top dollars have got industry certification.

bec
bec

I don't know how different things are in the U.S. to Australia, but I can tell you that having started working in IT 2 weeks after graduating from High School and not having been out of work a day in the 8 years since then, degrees are not the beginning and end. Obviously, I don't have one. And, having only got my first cert last year, I can tell you that it's the experience that has got me where I am, not a piece of paper. However, I do now have 3 certs and I can say that they have impressed people far more than a degree would have. Why waste all that time on useless mandatory subjects which have nothing to do with what you actually want to do in a career, when you can do a heavilly focused cert and learn what you actually need to know? Well, that's this Aussie chick's opinion anyway. The only thing I can gather from this blog, is that those of you who seem to have done a degree have slightly better english and grammar skills that the rest... I know it's a blog, but really guys...

ManiacMan
ManiacMan

You can be certified up the arse all you want, but without experience to back it up, your certs are nothing more than fancy pieces of toilet paper that most employers don't and won't care for. I've had the misfortune to work with so called "MCSEs'" that couldn't setup a hardware RAID on a server if their very lives and careers depended on it. So much for bragging about being an MCSE if the only thing one can do is pop in the Windows Server CD onto a PC and run the setup file. Any moron can do that.

lej_33
lej_33

Strongly disagree. College is expensive, and takes time. Very expensive. Also, what if you want to move laterally into a different job, or just keep your current job? Certifications show that you have SOME experience, if you cannot get work-related experience, or college. At least you know more than other people, and can demonstrate it.

etkinsd
etkinsd

i agree... that is a serious problem in our industry... our occupation requires continuous learning and education. it often impacts our financial stability at home and our families.. schedule, conflict, etc. i am not promoting masters or undergraduate degrees for everyone, because in our industry there are many sub-specialties and jobs that require a variety of skills. i probably made the mistake of framing my initial response in terms of my occupation as a software engineer.

Dr Dij
Dr Dij

is that it is slanted towards network / server admin people. these are not the only people in IT. Only two out of the 10 are SW. some more: there are certs for data whseing (TDWI.org) business analyst software products (e.g. SAP) oracle certs sql server pgmrs and admin certs ECM certs (aiim.org) and many more that will get you jobs where a network has nothing to do with the job. and there are many ways to measure certs. raw numbers but at lower salaries, or smaller numbers but at higher salaries for jobs not included in the other certs.

PeterChaves
PeterChaves

Your comments in the first paragraph were less than a serious and professional response to an important issue. I must commend you, however, for your recovery in the second paragraph. Certifications are no substitute for hands-on experience nor is a degree a substitute in the real world. However, both certs and degrees have their function and their place. They both show, in general, that the individual took the time and made the effort to learn the subject matter and become proficient enough to pass certain tests/exams to demonstrate his/her knowledge. Book learning cannot substitute for hands-on experience, but it might get our foot in the door. If you have ever been a hiring manager, you know that it is the interview that gets you hired, not your resume. Best wishes in your career.

etkinsd
etkinsd

i like to shock folks first... here are some more data points to examine: granted the industry created these certification programs to help employers train their folks to do certain jobs, but in many cases these certification programs have backfired. they have created barriers to entry for some applicants who have the skill but not the documentation and other who have passed the programs but for whatever reason can't perform satisfactorily. i say, use the AVA before hiring a person as a condition of employment (paid for by the employer), hire the person most suited for the job based first on the AVA! and then on the qualifications and experience desired.

ramabrooks
ramabrooks

Back in IT's early days, when companies mainly ran on mainframe computers someone with an engineering or mathmatics degree would have abetter chance of getting hired. Today, there is such a wide variety of technology that no one can truely master it all. Look at Information Technology Profession being like the Medical Field. A neurologist is not the best person to perform a heart transplant. A foot doctor is not the best person to have to treat an individual's mental illness. With IT, a BS degree is still what emoloyers are looking for. What certs do, is that it tells employers that an independant 3rd party has validated your skills for a specific technology. Speaking as a Desktop Support Technician, I would not trust the programmers I've worked with to swap out a hard drive. Just as they wouldn't have me program any part of their applications. I used the ComptIA A+ to vaildate the knowledge and experience I picked up as a hobbiest. When I preppared for Network+, I did all that I can do as a Desktop Support Tech to troubleshoot a network problem. I view that studying as an independant study and I knew I needed hands on to with the book learning. Today many colleges offer classes mapped to different certs. By studying for those certs and passing the exams, you can save yourself time and money towards your degree, and it has worked for me. I just don't trust folks who take a cert class but not the exam because they feel it is the same. The certs exam is a chance to prove through a 3rd party that you do indeed know what you claim to know. Don't waste your employer's time taking a cert class but not the exam. That shows one is afraid to be validated. The other big problem is the Paper MCSE's that was running around in the 90's. Any studying of a cert should include hands on with the technology, otherwise you are setting yourself up for failure. Mr. Rama K. Brooks, A+, Network+ Associates of Applied Science Computer Information Systems - Networking

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

Don't trust folks who take the course, not the exam. Don't trust folks who've taken the exam but not the course (paper). So how do you recognise a paper cert, you examine them yourself! Seeing as you don't know you can trust the said third party, that validation is useless. Given that, what use is the exam, to a hirer? Afraid, yeah right. Don't waste your employers time. The exam is a waste of an employer's time and money. You can either do the job or you can't. The only reason to take the exam and get the cert is so you can take it somewhere else. Try and get out more, OK. PS this untrustworthy developer was soldering chips together to build logic circuits in 1977. Remember a specialist is someone who knows nothing about anything else.

michael.brodock
michael.brodock

Certs show an employer that the individual has shown a certain level of knowledge and skill. Of course you can disagree, but that is why there are certifications. They are not for your 'I love me' wall. As far as a MS degree, well the stuff I learned in my MS program wasn't much different than what I learned in my BS program and neither really apply to IT work compared to a Microsoft or Cisco certification, which are far more real world. So I humbly disagree with your take on certs and college degrees, but I have both so I am good either way.

etkinsd
etkinsd

i probably made a mistake in framing my response towards the work i do as a software engineer. initially certs were a way the industry could help employers with training their employees. however, i think that skill and performance is more important the the certification paper and stuff you can boast on a resume... from what i see, folks pursue certs to get higher pay; but may not be able to produce on the job. so the certification programs become a barrier to entry for those without, and for some...well they just take up space in the organization but don't make any significant contribution.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

Your MS and cisco certifications aren't going to be much use in a VMS house unless you have enough theory to map them across though. Certainly no reason why you can't except for some HR muppet not giving you the opportunity because you haven't took a VMS and DecNet courses. Certs were meant to be for employers, they were meant to indicate a portion of knowledge. However intentions and reality differed widely as soon as someine realised how much it cost. So now HR do their level best to pass that cost on to us. So obviously people try to cheat the system. If HR get a big say in hiring they'll succeed as well. Whether this harms employees or employers more is open to debate.

DLBPDX
DLBPDX

There are many routes one can take to achieve success in the I.T. fields. I never understood the immeadiate dislike of certifications, universities offer great theory and some practical experience but that pales in comparison to real world experience while working up the I.T. ladder from entry level technician work to higher level systems administration work along with doing self-study of vendor neutral or vendor specific certification materials only strengthens an individual's ability to succeed in I.T. ... now throw a college degree from one of those fields in with it you have the ultimate well rounded I.T. guru ready for the I.T. corporations(designers\makers) as well as the corporations\organizations that use I.T. check out these two sources: www.certmag.com "Getting your I.T. Career in Gear" Make it a Great Day! db

nhahajn
nhahajn

I've met a lot of people with College degree's that didn't have the technical skill to even turn on a computer. You can be book smart and get a degree but not be able to turn that knowledge into anything useful. Every situation is different, employers need to look at past performance, skill level, hands on experience, education and certifications. Certs were originally ment to "certify" your skills, but nowadays with all the paper certs, they have a bad rap. They were never meant to be an education in themselves.

etkinsd
etkinsd

i wasn't saying that a degree is the answer... i was just knocking all the emphasis on certifications years ago i used to hear radio announcements for MS certs and how much money you could earn, ditto for cisco and some others. IMHO, it's not the paper certificates that you have accumulated and all the acroynms and letters you can list on your resume and after your name... it's your technical skill, performance, and work products that you produce (individually) that really counts. these certifications are a band aid for employers and managers, because they really don't know how to hire and manage effectively. i am a software engineer who thoroughly enjoys writing code in any language, creating products, doing research, etc; however, because my personality is mapped to the occupation i have chosen, i am where i want to be ... some folks, whose personality is not mapped correctly to the job of a programmer, software engineer, or technical IT person (even manager) will not perform well and some will "self-identify" and leave all-together... granted the industry created these certification programs to help employers train their folks to do certain jobs, but in many cases these certification programs have backfired. they have created barriers to entry for some applicants who have the skill but not the documentation and other who have passed the programs but for whatever reason can't perform satisfactorily. i say, use the AVA before hiring a person as a condition of employment (paid for by the employer), hire the person most suited for the job based first on the AVA! and then on the qualifications and experience desired.

niallf
niallf

First of all what have you got against Software Engineers? The Certificates are useful, if your looking through candidates for a position on paper then the cert of a sure sign that they have some experience in the field. You cannot get a Cert with study alone, experience of some sort is also required.

etkinsd
etkinsd

dude, software engineers have multi-disciplined backgrounds... in the type of work i have been doing, by far the "top dogs" i have worked with, i.e. the best guys at writing code were (mostly all with BS degrees): electrical engineers, physics majors, math majors, systems engineering majors, and then the computer science majors. the folks i always asked for help were never the guys with the 'software engineering' degrees... those guys couldn't write code and mostly did the CM, documentation, and other more non-essential work. No offense to guys with that degree, on the average however the folks i have seen with that degree either couldn't write code, didn't want/like to write code, because their program was focused more on "process" and not on the courses necessary to create and build products.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

Going through the work book exercises in a lab is not experience.

NickNielsen
NickNielsen

How is a Master's more useful than a certification to the employer hiring first-line customer support?

simon
simon

Top 10 list of IT certs, and it doesnt include anything do to with virtualization, or SAN storage/storage consolidation.

guillenkma
guillenkma

virutalization and/or SANS storage/consolidation are small jobs within the larger scope of the IT world and covered by several certs. That's why there aren't any certs for this. TOO SPECIALIZED!!!

birthdaycake
birthdaycake

1. Certs have a purpose completely separate from actual job skills learned on the job or in school. They are for proving to those who don't know you that you that you (probably) know what you are doing. 3. Sure, a Masters degree is better. No sXXt. Good for you. Until they perfect a time machine so I can go back and change my major, I'm stuck going to a couple of one-week classes a year.

guillenkma
guillenkma

I hope one of your classes is in Math and another in English

DadsPad
DadsPad

They are for you workplace management to show that the people they hired are qualified for the job. Telling higher management that the current employees are doing the job is often not enough. It is not unusual to have hiring practices substitute education for work experience. I was taking a MS class once and there was an individual that had been working on his companies servers for many years. He was told he must get his certification to keep his job (they were paying for entire course). He was not worried about passing, just illustrates the point. As noted on earlier posts, often young hiring managers have college degrees and feel that is valuable. No knowledgable hiring IT manager will value education over experience if he wants to keep his job. :)

brent.harmon
brent.harmon

Formal education - be it certifications, degrees or whatever - is about making a decision to improve one's self. True, sometimes that decision is made by our employers (get this certification if you want to keep your job!). But overall, as a hiring manager, I value an employee and a candidate that is willing to invest in themselves. Formal education is difficult when you have to go to school; it is even more difficult when no one is making you go. I graduated with a degree in Education, and now I work as an IT Manager. Do I grade papers and review curriculum in my IT role? No. But, the skills learned in writing a lesson plan can apply to good project management. Breaking down a large "concept" into measurable, achievable objectives and mapping those to a realistic timeline is something that few of my co-workers with IT Certifications and Computer Science degrees can do, yet you cannot be an effective teacher without this skill. Of course, making those self-destructive users go to "timeout" is fun, too ;) My recommendation to any non-degreed, non-certified IT worker out there would be to pursue some form of formal education. Not for validation of your skills. Not for more money. Do it for yourself, without expecting anything in return other than the fact that you will be a better person. When you make decisions for the right reasons, the other things will follow, like validation and money, if those are your desired end goals. Tell your boss that you want to go back to school to start/finish your degree because you want to improve yourself, and see what his/her reaction is. My stronger recommendation would be to pursue a degree at a liberal arts university, where you will get a strong, well-rounded education. My two favorite classes in college were Logical Thinking and Religion because they taught me lessons and concepts that were outside of my "comfort zone". Only YOU can improve yourself!

donahuej9
donahuej9

That was about the best comment made.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

Question, Does informal education improve you ? I rest my case... No more need be said... Another question, did Religion and Logical thinking at the same time sit comfortably. LMAO.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

no no no no no no no NO ! Why does an employer need someone with a Masters in Maths to swap tapes? To write a CRUD app To design a table to store orders and customers To bash up a web page. They need someone who can do those things, how they came by the skill and the knowledge is completely irrelevant. Do they have it or not? I've worked with people with master's, plain old degrees, honours degrees, diplomas, just certs, all of the above, or even no formal qualifications at all. Statistically I can point to no relation between whether they could do the job and what pieces of paper they had. Your attitude is as bad as that of cert merchants who claim if you don't have one, you aren't capable. I'd like to say thanks for yet more evidence of the massive disconnect between academia and the real world. I didn't need anymore though. PS What's wrong with a Master's in Software engineering? You can get a degree in advaced flower arranging if you want. Can you think, can you apply in the environment you are in, can you learn, that's what's important.

etkinsd
etkinsd

this degree "softens up" and almost eliminates virtually all the technical education in favor of a more fluffy curriculum in topics such as software process, metrics, project management, CMMI, configuration management, all the development methodologies: agile, etc... Because project management has been weak, candidate selection poorly managed, personnel management weak... software project failure cause and effect is poorly analyzed... leading to this kind of degree. Most of the topics here have been taught and well-understood by competent and skilled software engineers. Employers need to use the Activity Vector Analysis (AVA) as a condition for employment for every job. This major and their software project management failures will be decreased at least by 75% overnight. Trouble is folks are too ignorant to implement the AVA into their hiring process. That's why we have folks pursuing software engineering degrees instead of computer science, and why we have programs like CMMI and no lean six sigma for software (wtf?, just manage using industrial engineering 101 principles!)

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

I would have expected something better. :p The higher up the ladder in academia you go in IT, the fluffier, or at least more abstract things are going to get. Originally you posted that a masters would be more useful than a bunch of certs. If this AVA process is even vaguely accurate, in the main certs would come out way more valuable than fluffy stuff only people like top level architects get a chance to use and then not often. CS degrees, except for a very small %age of jobs, are near useless. Who gives a crap about the mathematical proof of why bubble sorts are inefficient, or what the error percentage of a double precision floating point number is. They come out with all that toss, and still use global variables everywhere , lock resources, don't put primary keys on their tables, have one character variable names and think complex code is somehow clever. Never met one yet it didn't take me at least six months, to get some lasting use out of. What we need is a cert or a degree in practical software engineering.

jdclyde
jdclyde

the business of selling training, either with certs or degrees are all about selling a product, and it doesn't matter if the product is good or not. I DID finish my BA, but work was paying for most of it, so why not? I saw a LOT of people drop out of the Cisco program because some loser in the counseling center told them "oh, you can make a lot of money in this field!" The other factor is a lot of the people that do the hiring have a degree, and surrounding themselves with other degreed people only helps them to validate THEMSELVES and the degree that THEY got. It in no way makes the potential hire a better worker. Are they good to have? Just like dressing nicely for the interview, it is showing them what they WANT to see. If it gets you in the door, it is good for YOU. Doesn't mean it will be good for them.

jdclyde
jdclyde

when your as grand as I, it deserves to be heard twice! :D Driving my boys nuts lately repeating a line off of "scrubs". [b] "Oh sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right!" [/b] B-)

jdclyde
jdclyde

the business of selling training, either with certs or degrees are all about selling a product, and it doesn't matter if the product is good or not. I DID finish my BA, but work was paying for most of it, so why not? I saw a LOT of people drop out of the Cisco program because some loser in the counseling center told them "oh, you can make a lot of money in this field!" The other factor is a lot of the people that do the hiring have a degree, and surrounding themselves with other degreed people only helps them to validate THEMSELVES and the degree that THEY got. It in no way makes the potential hire a better worker. Are they good to have? Just like dressing nicely for the interview, it is showing them what they WANT to see. If it gets you in the door, it is good for YOU. Doesn't mean it will be good for them.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

When they ask you which diploma mill you went to. Harvard, Yale, MIT, Oxford Cambidge, or famously Hull. (Fans of Blackadder may get this). Once you tacked the piece of paper to your I love me wall, that's it, time for the real world. That you learn about in the university of life.

headmann
headmann

Generally, first round of selection to be done by a stupid HR girl, trying to make an impression on you and truly believing in that she can understand anything in your business... And here you do need the sertifications to be selected from others... About the real value - you are 100% right. Thanks!

2WiReD
2WiReD

Sure, a Masters degree or even Graduate degree carry allot of weight, esp. if you plan not to be stuck on the bottom fighting your way up your whole career, but to be honest in the real world surely those who are actually trained in real world stuff are better qualified for the job? I tried the whole Computer Science degree, and it was like signing up for a 4 year course to be an Indy car mechanic, while spending the first two years studying in detail the model t ford and first ever combustion engine..... Those degrees are usually outdated by the time you graduate... Sure I know what a database is, I studied the 200 year old math?s behind it....but can I actually set up and maintain SQL server XX? Ehh, well no... Degrees and masters are a great way of proving you?re dedicated to solving long troublesome issues, and persevering, but certifications can well prove that this issues not actually going to take 3 years, cos you already know it. The monies that employers need to pump into graduates cos they have no actually / little actual experience in the technology of today could be better spent to be honest

guillenkma
guillenkma

I totally agree, except for the serious grammatical errors and spelling issues.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

you should be able to apply them. That however means that my NT3.51 admin course is still valid, my experience with basis with line numbers is still valid. Which means I don't have to buy (or have it bought) more up to date stuff, which is big business opportunity lost. Always follow the money.

cfrancum
cfrancum

While experience trumps certs --- and there are many persons with 'Paper' certs who can pass test, but can't perform, the certification gives the prospective employer a small sense of security that the prospective employee will not need a great deal of training / learning curve. Per "outdated-ness" of training... Nah, the principles are the same.. 20 yrs ago the C I learned has become the center for many languages... The HTML learned 15 years ago still works, though supplanted with Java, etc.

uberg33k50
uberg33k50

I just read an article last week by a company that does analysis on salaries for IT professionals. They actually showed that the slaries for people with certifications was going down while people without certifications salaries were going up. I know I am done with paying for the tests and all the other crap that goes with doing the ever changing certification merry-go-round. My resume speaks for itself.

guillenkma
guillenkma

I would like to see the article you claim shows this infomration. My personal info is that in the Mid Atlantic region of the U.S., salaries for 'Certs" is going up. In fact CISSP has quite a draw here. Folks are pulling in upwards of 100k. Masters in anything, with regard to the IT field makes someone TOO qualified for the majority of jobs available. They get shoe horned into positions with little growth potential and set salary levels.

Dr Dij
Dr Dij

I think they were indicating that INCREASES for those with certs were slowing down and demonstrated skills pay increases speeding up. Probably because for identical experience, those with certs were probably getting somwhat more to begin with, then employers realized there are better indicators of knowledge than just certs.

Cybrduck
Cybrduck

Understood or not, to claim that certifications are for techs looking for credibility makes no sense. Whether it's a degree or certifications, the pursuit is for the employer. A degree or a cert is only as strong as the program backing them. An employer cares about how strong a candidate is based on the backing. When I was last in school, the skills being taught were some of the same for the certifications concerning a particular technology. Add in the fact that both school and the real world give hands on experience and opportunity to pick up soft skills such as communication. It all comes down to what the candidate has done with the time on the path chosen. One is not better than the other.

uberg33k50
uberg33k50

To assume that I misunderstood the article. I really don't care if the salaries were up before. If this article is correct in their research the salaries for certified people are going down -- not slowing down and computer science degree salaries are going up. The difference between the two is pretty large. I cannot seem to find the exact link that took me to the PDF file but their web site is http://www.footepartners.com. I will also gladly send you the actual PDF file I downloaded if you send me an email.

anh_tuan378
anh_tuan378

Some how I'd think it apply to both, since Top Education does have a way of their own in problem solving and execution but majority its all Politic, on the other end learning from the Real World castatrophic and apply from what you've known and face off, just like the Pro and the Con...Master Degree? heck "NO" Certifications in Real World Hell Yeah..Y not..moneies it not all that great, when you already have the Tools in your hand and use it correctly..am I right?

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