IT Employment

Job security in IT plummets in February

An analysis of U.S. employment patterns by Scorelogix's Job Security Index showed that job security for IT professionals plummeted 10.2% between January to February this year. This represents the largest drop in more than a year.

An analysis of U.S. employment patterns by Scorelogix's Job Security Index showed that job security for IT professionals plummeted 10.2% between January to February this year. This represents the largest drop in more than a year.

In a report, ScoreLogix analysts stated that:

This reduced demand for IT jobs, which has lowered job security level in the IT sector, can be attributed to outsourcing, offshoring, and relocation of production to cheaper, foreign locations.”

The Job Security Index uses a custom developed scoring model using data compiled from government agencies and other sources, as well as research conducted by ScoreLogix. A number is generated at the end of it to indicate the robustness of job security compared to January 1998, which is the baseline with a score that is exactly 100. You can read more about it here.

What do you folks in the trenches say? Is there really a decline in prospects in IT?

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About

Paul Mah is a writer and blogger who lives in Singapore, where he has worked for a number of years in various capacities within the IT industry. Paul enjoys tinkering with tech gadgets, smartphones, and networking devices.

82 comments
ernestm
ernestm

And not that the US economy is in the shitter? Thanks for the insight Lou Dobbs!

GTorresCUE
GTorresCUE

I am not in IT. However, I am, for the second time in seven years, facing a plant shutdown by yet another global tech corporation. I have read the post as well as the entire thread. What you all are talking about is my passion: The plight of the American worker. Two corporate lessons I took to heart at the time of the first plant shutdown: First, corporations leverage tax law to their advantage, and second, corporations create alliances even with competitors for their mutual advantage. Typically, when a worker experiences hardship his/her course of action is to take on a second or part-time job or sideline business. However, unless he/she does not report that additional income they have merely moved themselves into a higher tax bracket. It's not long before what seemed like a great idea becomes a exhausting burden because he/she is still working a job AND going at it alone. What do these two lessons mean for the American worker who keeps seeing his/her jobs going overseas? While I would not counsel you to abandon your job or stop seeking for one, I will say concurrently with those pursuits; do as the corporations. How? Leverage tax law by creating your own IT enterprise, and, do so through an IC-Network (Independent Contractor Network, also, "Independent Enterprise Network"). The oft stated dislike in this thread for consulting work stems in part from two factors. One, the consultant prices himself/herself out of the market, and worse, they often fail to leverage tax law because they regard their consulting as a "job" earning them, "a nice little bit of cash" on the side. Second, they are going at it alone, still. The vision of IC-Networks is that, like the Internet, they will take on life of their own. A local IC-Network whose members include, technicians, engineers, hobbyists and others "resource"; not a bad word when you're talking about your own, Knowledge, Skills and Experience in IT team together and make a name for themselves through the service they deliver for businesses and individuals, one at a time. Eight years ago, in the developmental infancy stage of the IC-Network model I took my focus away from IT. This was in part due to the "down their nose" look I got when I approached IT personnel. I asked myself, "Who stands to benefit most from my business model?" I thought, "The 'non-to-low-skilled'" workers in apparel. A description I assessed as inaccurate and untrue. They are people who have acquired, and in some instances, amassed, a great deal of Knowledge, Skills and Experience. Alas, IT has one thing in common with them: Those jobs are not coming back. The American worker can stand up for himself/herself, but not by themselves through alliances with IC-Networkers. I continue to present my model to individuals such as yourselves, VARs, vendors and even a certain computer manufacturer. My goal is to launch the IC-Network model in Texas, but the model is for implementation at the local, regional, statewide and nationwide levels. Anyone who wishes to learn the details on how IC-Networks generate income for its members can visit my blog (at the risk of being censored, here) at: workingmannequin.blogspot.com. Currently, I am working to get past technical issues with the "IC-TechNetwork" link.

svasani
svasani

I think its just a matter of adapting in IT. Unlike other Industries that build upon existing base, IT just rebuilds the base everytime. Jobs are definitely out there. One area that is reasonably secure is in IT support and Network/Systems Administration. I also noticed a number of startups providing Network and Software Security solutions and hiring. Besides that we have to constantly look at the upcoming technologies and regulations as a potential market. There is a lot going on with the PCI standard(Payment Card Industry). Another example of tapping into technology changes is Vista. For instance, there is a mega project going on at our firm to migrate all existing VBA macros and scripts on to Vista. IT is also not about only doing the work. Work needs to be generated. Issues need to be brought out, upgrades need to be considered, management needs to be convinced, proactive steps need to be taken. Bottom line-There are many jobs out there that cannot be outsourced. Being in the Industry we are, we have to just stay on top and ADAPT.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

Jobs in IT security are a definite goer. It's not a misprint? IT Job Security ??????? I have this bridge.....

bpoetz
bpoetz

It's more feasible to outsource an IT consultant then to keep a full - time IT Staff. With rising cost s of health insurance, training etc. It helps the bottom line. I operate an IT firm in Simi Valley, CA. I have seen a spike in request for consultant

pepeledog
pepeledog

Maybe I will go into landscaping?

reisen55
reisen55

This should not be news. IT was - once - a dynamic career field, full of potential and that was but 5 or 10 years ago. Then firms like Computer Sciences, Affiliated Computer Services, Accenture, EDS and others grew a major support world in Bangalore and everything since has gone to hell. American Management does not care about quality anymore (would Dr. Deming disprove) but ONLY COST, COST AND COST. FIRE THOSE HIGH PAID AMERICAN WORKERS. And if we can get some time in Bangalore at 1/5 salary with no health care costs at CHEAPER,FASTER,BETTER (now I treat that as a single word) ... HEY GREAT. IT has become the career dustbowl of our time.

jrwooton
jrwooton

I have been in this industry for 27 years now and I have to say that the IT secter in the last 10 years has been a real Crap hole...they treat yuo as dirt and we are discarded as fast as the technology changes...I donn't believe the corporate world will ever think of us as anything else but contempt and utter disdain...I still love what I do, but it is not condusive anymore to a sucure future unless you happen to get lucky with who you work for or are an upper manger echelon...well thats my rant...lol...

Fregeus
Fregeus

Not anymore anyways. I find it ironic that the gouvernment has the audacity to then ask why there isn't more youths going into the IT field. HELLO?!?! Anybody home? Not everyone has the stomach to be a consultant. I for one, have a hard time with it because insecurity makes me nervous. Nervousness is not good for my health. The competition is fearse in the field with drives prices down. Lower prices means lower income. For most, this trouble is not worth the money. Companies want to cut cost, at all cost (no punt intended) and they have almost no vision past the quarter. The executives are almost only thinking about themselves and their bonuses. The investors like that because they have the same frame of mind. How can I make a buck right now?!?!? People say that businesses are there to make money, and in a way that is true. But I dream of the day when we use to also be in business because we believed in what we where doing. We believed in the product we were making, we believed in the services we were providing. Making money should be icing on the cake, not the cake itself. And like actual icing, if you only think about that and eat too much of it. You end up sick. Sorry for the rant, but its what I beleive is at the root of the issue. TCB.

paulmah
paulmah

What do you folks in the trenches say? Is there really a decline in prospects in IT?

raykaville
raykaville

There are a number of jobs and career paths available in the software market. Unfortunately a lot of us aren't inclined to move our careers into that arena. You are correct about adapting, as I have been doing since graduating electrical engineering school. None of my "formal" education is applicable to anything I do anymore because I had to adapt to survive. After 30+ years of adapting I'm finding that all the opportunities and paths that used to be available through development and production are just gone overseas. I have resisted considering software opportunities for many years. Where some love it, I find it annoying and tedious. Sadly it's all we're being left with and much of that is now being given away by the corporate and federal sector as well. Your comments are good advice and spot on IMHO. I hope we all find our niche.

reisen55
reisen55

I mis-read your post at first and thought you meant you could outsource OUT any in-house consultants. But the demand for credible American works who are close at hand and not half a world away in Bangalore has created a vacuum for domestic support. I am developing my business through networked partnerships and consider my job to be 'Outsourcing IT, American Style.'

TmanA37
TmanA37

Corporate America is not only off shoring jobs, but importing H1B Visa workers to train and replace U.S. workers. U.S. tech workers are caught in the middle. I've seen companies import H1B Visa workers and had them trained on the latest and greates and then lay off their U.S. cournterparts. I find it's almost impossible to stay up on the latest technolgies when companies no longer care to provide training to their IT Staff.

domenicl_2000
domenicl_2000

I was just let go in February from a company that kept me on contract for 18 months.I kept asking when will I get permante status and I was given the run around all the time.Because I was working on contract I never had a day off or called in sick in the past 18 months because u don't get paid when u r sick working on contract.This is the thanks I get for working sooo hard.Now I am collecting unemployment for the 7th time since 2000.I have 10 years experience.I also don't like stress and I'm not interested in doing 24/7 no thank you.In the many years I've worked in IT I find there is alot of favoritism going on.It does not matter what you know it's who u know and willing to bend over backwards.I am seriously looking to change careers.What there should be is a Union to protect people working in IT field.This way we don't get screwed by these computer companies.I'm really fed up with this field.

Menopausal
Menopausal

Corporate goals in this country are what is making the business climate sick, but they don't seem to have any long-range vision. When it becomes less profitable to make widgets, all they think is how to cut costs and make cheaper widgets. Why not think about what else the widget factory could be used for profitably? That might mean *thinking* or *taking a risk* once in a while. The real job security these days belongs to the person who knows they can go out and get hired at a reasonable job. I've seen way too many people who think that just because they've given 20 years of their life to a company, and it is doing well financially, and they are highly regarded, means they have job security.

haq
haq

I'm an undergrad MIS major I don't work in IT yet but it sounds pretty shity :D

kenforester
kenforester

What can I say...This article is a confirmation of what most of us have felt and feared for some time now. While job security in IT has never been high as it was a 10-15 years ago, it has gone up and down depending on the economy. There are some exceptions in both good and bad ways i.e. some people do well when many were losing jobs and vice versa, but on the whole I agree with the assessment that things are really bad in the IT sector now. In last few days major IT companies such as DELL, GOOGLE, and AMD have made significant job cuts running into thousands, so I can only imagine more IT jobs being lost. In a sense I am glad that someone has come up with something scientific to quantify the 'unhappy feeling of being insecure'.

leibendk
leibendk

The Washington Post plans to close one it's two printing plants in the next year or two. A buyout of IT techs is currently underway.

ladywolf9653
ladywolf9653

Like many of you, have been in this business for years - 19 now, to be exact, and in the ever nebulous field of customer support (help desk). Have watched companies outsource or eliminate headcount in favor of consultants, and have many friends in the business who were handed pink slips as their jobs moved overseas. Sure, outsourcing saves money initially, but at what cost? Not to degrade the service capabilities of our overseas counterparts, but it's not exactly feasible for them to say "let me stop over and take a look" when traditional troubleshooting methods fail to resolve the issue. A local tech college has a general IT degree, which includes a required course on help desk. Every year the instructor brings them in for a tour of our shop, and every year the class size dwindles. Those that remain are targeting network or server admin roles, and are often convinced that they'll make $80K/year to start. Facing reality just doesn't seem to be their strong suit. To sum it up, yes, there is a serious decline in IT prospects. I do my best to stay "relevant" by studying on a near constant basis - on my own time - but I fully believe that there will come a time where it is no longer enough. I could move into another area of IT, but I do what I do because I love doing it and I'm darn good at it. I try not to worry about the future, and figure I'll deal with it when it arrives.

nriddle
nriddle

Well, ok it is $$ most of the time. But lets assess it on another level. IT Professionals fail to make themselves "indispensable". Plain and simple. In any professionaly sector, if your skills can be found for cheaper somewhere else, then the best business decision is to lower your costs. Every professional in every sector faces the chalenge of being indispensable. The odd thing about the IT sector is we expect our employeer to pay us more, pay for our continued education and not look for a cheaper solution!!! You wont get outsourced if they cant find someone that can do the things you do. Its your responsibility to be the best. Don't be mad at the company for replacing you with a better, cheaper, faster solution...in tech terms: "you've be upgraded"

Locrian_Lyric
Locrian_Lyric

This just shows how much of a liar bill is eh?

TmanA37
TmanA37

It doesn't help when U.S. compaines outsource their entire IT department to companies such as HCL. http://www.hcltech.com/ I know a company in Austin TX that has outsrouced their entire IT department to HCL. Every six months they rotate a new crop of H1B visa workers. H1B Visa's are only supposed to be issued for positions that are difficult to fill, yet they are filling ordinary IT positions that any number of laid off U.S. tech workers can and should be doing. Corporate America is NOT America!

DadsPad
DadsPad

Gates was recently asked why he did not hire US citizens, he said all the top graduates of US Univeristies were not US citizens. I also read that HB1 were needed because they could not find qualified personnel in the US in technical fields, also wondering why so few people were graduating in technical fields. What few are mentioning is who wants to graduate in a field where they only stand to make (on graduation) in the $10/hr range? Other fields are taking off, i.e. geology, and more people are entering studies on these fields. One thing is true, however, there is a big baby boomer generation that will be retiring soon. Many of these are experienced hands-on IT personnel and will be hard to be replaced with outsourcing. Unless the vastly increase HB1's there will be a good future for new graduate at that time.

cvlewisjr
cvlewisjr

Even in a very bad economy, there are recruiters calling me constantly for openings, and in my opinion, Im in a pretty saturated primary skillset (SQL Server) where I have probably stood pat a bit too long. As a DBA, I can set up a server in a way that someone wouldnt have to hire extra IT personnel to maintain it. I think the real role of IT is to create enough automation in the business so that there will be a need for less operations personnel down the road. The problem is, as a consultant, you have to constantly and aggressively seek to move up the development food chain, otherwise, you can easily be replaced cheaper or literally work yourself out of a job. So yes, when businesses suffer, the IT staff will be looked at both ways to streamline costs. The goal is to be high enough in the life cycle to be an agent for that streamlining.

CaptBilly1Eye
CaptBilly1Eye

There is a decrease in IT opportunities in many markets, but that is as expected. This, too, shall pass. Availability (or lack of availability) of IT positions is directly related to the ebb and flow of the economy. The decrease or increase in job opportunities is therefore cyclic. ...just like 'Global Warming.' ;-)

Rod_V
Rod_V

With the internet speed and location availability increase, it's easier to outsource projects to cheaper foreign locations.

Jrats_Revenge
Jrats_Revenge

In my opinion... I think it depends on where you are and what you specialize in. I am fortunate to live in the Houston area and our job market is still stronger than most places. The value of housing here brings many new jobs to this area. Where a house in California costing $500,000, you can get 3 times the house here in town. That brings many to Texas. Also the energy business is strong here and that also brings jobs to Houston. With companies hiring more that increases the need for IT personel. On the flip side though, the cost of living in many places drives companies to downsize or outsource IT needs. Hopefully with the new technology that is emerging, new IT jobs will emerge as well.

malathi.mahadevan
malathi.mahadevan

IMHO it was always like this, especially in US. I am clueless what they mean by 'job security' there is no concept of that in this country. I have had jobs during 2000 dot com burst and not had jobs when things were rosy economically. If you worked in other countries you know corporate culture rarely sucks as much as it does here - I would not even call employment as jobs, all are contracted and it is really always employer's will and whim when he terminates the contract. That is all.

netforce
netforce

City, state, federal IT jobs are secure. Most people including myself have gone through so many jobs as a result of layoff, mergers etc in the corp entity. But almost all my friends that work for the city, state, fed have been working for the last 12-18 years. But trying to get in is a pain in the @zz, since they almost always hire 99% from within. I need to contact my friends again and put some fire under their feet. Screw corp. America, as they are screwing us.

leew2
leew2

Outside of the 'help desk', I rarely see the functional aide of IT outsourced. It is requirements gathering, configuration & training that mandates the face to face positions in the IT industry.

malathi.mahadevan
malathi.mahadevan

My sympathies are with you all in that regard. But to me outsourcing is only another reason for vicious employers to cut jobs. The problem is not one reason or the other, it is the basic corporate philosophy that treats people as 'use and throw' market commodities. My goal if you want to survive America learn to be independant, a consultant at the very least, or even do lawn mowing if you can. Don't expect job security in employment in this country, it does not exist and perhaps never will in a lifetime.

Fregeus
Fregeus

Not in IT for sure. Unions would do nothing more than put more chaos into our field of expertise. There are too many variables both in work description, technologies and objectives to be able to pin things down the way a union does. No, unions are definately not the answer. An association like the engineers have on the other hand, might be more realistic. TCB

david
david

Your experience with outsourced IT support must be much different than mine. An example: Years ago I was having problems with a robotic tape library. I was with "outsourced" tech support for over five hours. At the end of the call the person on the other end of the phone said he could not help me. He said to expect a call in the morning. The next day I got a call from Boston. In 15 minutes we were up and running. I relayed my previous experience with their support to the Bostonian. He said a year ago that there were 30 guys sitting there beside him. Now there was just one other. He admitted the level of support in his company had dropped of sharply and every customer that eventually made it to him complained about the service. So out of better, cheaper, faster, I will concede only to cheaper. And for "upgraded", sounds like the "upgrade" to Vista.

W.E.
W.E.

"IT Professionals fail to make themselves "indispensable". Plain and simple. In any professionaly sector, if your skills can be found for cheaper somewhere else, then the best business decision is to lower your costs" So the solution for American IT is to work for $10 an hour. According to the above logic.

TmanA37
TmanA37

If you subscribe to that way of thinking, then we can off shore CPA's, CEO's, CFO's, local news reporters (which is already happening) and any other profession that is not a customer facing, hands on profession. That way of thinking is a race to the bottom line. In order to stay "high speed, low drag" one would have to have access to resources that is unrealisticly unobtainable or unstainable.

raykaville
raykaville

Let me guess. You're still working right? I completely agree you need to "be the best" and have lived my life exactly that way. Through no fault of mine just about every company I've worked for has either left of closed. The last one is in process of dissolving and the east coast production division (mine) was relocated to KY (which I did) and then the offices were closed (which I did) because they found the new location cheaper. I was the best and making a decent wage for it. Now I'm out of a job and with all the $20hr jobs that are being pushed at me I just don't know which one to choose. Maybe I'll take two so I can make my house payment... Talk to any of my previous employers and they will concur, I was the best. I hope you can have the same positive feeling about your company if and when they kick you out.

Locrian_Lyric
Locrian_Lyric

The problem in our field is that we tend to code ourselves out of a job. When you develop a program or a process that is kick-a$$ and does wonders for the company, what do you do for an encore? GREAT!!! This has solved all our problems. Thank you, and don't let the door hit you on the backside on the way out!

thinker999
thinker999

I'll go you one better than that.. Corporate America is anti-American. In addition to all the outsourcing that we're discussing, consider companies like Stanley Tool. They re-incorporated off-shore so that they would significantly reduce the amount of taxes that they had to pay the US Gov't, since now they're a foreign corporation. So, they've got US employees, who are now not being paid by a US company, and they're screwing US tax law "legally," but we allow them to stay physically in this country? Shouldn't corporate shenanigans like this result in their corporate officers being run out of town on a rail?

havenmoth
havenmoth

laid off so that foreingers could do their job in a economic culture where $10/hr basically equals equivilant IT pay in the US-BUT Allows for the "Investors" to rape and pilage profits at a higer rate

havenmoth
havenmoth

Supply and demand no longer includes american workers

ryumaou@hotmail.com
ryumaou@hotmail.com

I'm in Houston, too, and I see new IT jobs listed almost every day of the week in the automated e-mail notifications from DICE.com and the like. Sure, some are duplicates from different placement agencies and I'm not qualified to do all of the listed jobs, either, but I remember a time when there just were no new IT jobs in Houston. Back in 2001-2002, after Enron and the Compaq/HP "merge", it was impossible to find work down here. Things are good now, but things change, too. I don't think there's been job *security* for anyone, IT or otherwise, for a long time, but there are jobs *in* IT for qualified people.

the.tumbleweed
the.tumbleweed

I can't remember the last time I had a corporate IT job. Almost all work I've had in teh last 15 years has been contract, and fairly seasonal. It appears to me that IT usually slows down around the end of November and picks up again usually in March or April, just before taxes are due. IT also seems to feel the pinch first and last when the economic ax falls, and often before the housing market ever flinches. Perhaps the feds keep watching the wrong industry to guage by.

dconnolly
dconnolly

From what I have seen, those that are having jobs outsourced are ones who may not have the most current technical skills, or may not be the best contributors. None the less, one must keep skills current, be flexable, be seen as a vital contributor and have your eyes open in your current job. From the financial standpoint, once the cost and benefits of off-shoring are matched by on-shore staff, things will settle down. Costs of off-shoring are going up in India, is China the next low cost provider?

lafeyette_management
lafeyette_management

He's spot on. I've been in this industry for 25 years, and I have never felt any real sense of security. Whether it is by outsourcing, offshoring, or simply due to internal corporate politicking, the IT staff are almost always on the chopping-block. Too many US corporations care for little more than the bottom line, and, as we all know, the IT folks are generally not considered a 'profit-making operation', but rather as expendable overhead. There seems to be a corporate mentality among middle and other managers that good IT folks willing to work for chump-change are being turned out by the droves in this country--and, if they are not, it's easy enough to hire contractors or people from overseas to do the needed work. Unfortunately, for those of us native to this country, the cost of living is sky-rocketing, and the ability to keep a job has plummeted. Personally, I've been downsized, laid off, or just plain had the company I work for fail completely (in one case, closed down by the IRS!) no less than seven times since 1994. There just isn't any loyalty to the workforce in this country. It's even inherent in the common 'corporate-speak' usage of the term "resources" to mean "people". We're no longer human beings, here. We're just "resources", like conference-rooms, projectors, desktop computers, or photocopiers--easily expendable and replaceable when necessary. How many people have had their lives destroyed by an ill-timed layoff? Fact is, the thought of packing it in and moving off-shore myself has been occurring to me more and more frequently as of late. I just wish I knew which country would welcome me, and would offer me real employment security. I'm thinking Canada, particularly the Vancouver or Toronto areas....

brownw03
brownw03

Every couple years now it seems like our State legislature looks at outsourcing if not off shoring jobs. Several other states have disemboweled their IT and simply handed operations over to private companies who contracted it. The pressure (and graft) to do so on the legislature is immense. Huge sums of monies are offered up in consideration of private interests, yet as a State worker I cannot even actively campaign for those I feel would best serve me and my State (I'm in a "little Hatch" state). The reality is that these "deals" always go wrong. The state ends up tightly tied into a contractor who continuously lowers service levels, replaces it's "expert" staff with lower capability worker, or ratchets up the cost, year after year. Once a State makes the wrong choice, dismisses it's staff and loses 40+ years of business insight and knowledge of inner working, they have no choice but to pay 2 or 3 times more just to maintain operations. And god help them if they realize their error later and try to disconnect from the contractor and rebuild it's own IT. The trouble is that our great elected braintrust sees no problems with any of this, private or public sector.

thinker999
thinker999

It has, for the last several years, been subjected to jobs being contracted out. Then those contractors see their numbers and their salaries locked or reduced at each new contract. Fed agencies are centralizing and consolidating operations and taskings (even when/where it's not a great idea) to higher-level headquarters, and reducing people where 'the rubber meets the road,' and 'doing more with less,' just like 'the outside.'

malathi.mahadevan
malathi.mahadevan

Perhaps that makes sense to you, most of the world seems Capitalism as America, not anything else. It is blended into the identity of this country. I have travelled 32 countries in my life, have not seen or met one person or place where capitalism is thought of as separate from this country's philosphy and lifestyle. Individuals are always kind, hardworking people, there is no denying that. But we can't get away from the fact that belief in capitalism is what created corporations in the first place - as long as individuals want success as limited to themselves bigger groups of them form corporations.

TmanA37
TmanA37

"as an average american we are raised to believe we are on our own, and everybody is islands in that way. The direct consequence of that is corporate america that is all." I disagree. As a born and raised American; Corporate America is not America. Corporate America is a product of Capitalism. True our economy is based on the free enterprise concept; however it is not all that is America. This country was build on individuals who worked together to make a better country. It was built on hard working individuals and small business owners and entrepreneurs who had a common belief. In the 20th century there was a saying ?Whatis good for business is good for America? That saying is no longer valid when Corporations only allegiance is to itself and it?s stock holders.

malathi.mahadevan
malathi.mahadevan

If Corporate America is not American what else is american then? Don't get me wrong, I love many things about this country, we are a great country and I have lived here 30 years now and can call it my own. But in many ways our culture is defined around individuals making it no matter what - when you define a culture like that there are some consequences. A corporation is ultimately again a collection of individuals only, they want to make it and they are higher up the survival/food chain so they create victims. Define a culture around community, values and money as ONE goal in life, then things may be different. But as an average american we are raised to believe we are on our own, and everybody is islands in that way. The direct consequence of that is corporate america that is all.

havenmoth
havenmoth

I think I'll go cruise another subject

havenmoth
havenmoth

Thank you so much for your attempt at winning a discussion you were not even involved in. The children in the room are the ones making derogatory remarks instead of intellignet conversation...

W.E.
W.E.

We are not one and the same. I don't even know the person. I believe you just want to think there's only one person here that disagrees with you in the same way ;-). When you use comments like "need a spell checker" and "sucks to be you", and then propose WE need to grow up, you lose all credibility as an adult. My question regarding you age is (and was) founded in your comments. I stand corrected on that. The spoiled part is obviously warranted.

W.E.
W.E.

We are not one and the same. I don't even know the person. I believe you just want to think there's only one person here that disagrees with you in the same way ;-). When you use comments like "need a spell checker" and "sucks to be you", and then propose WE need to grow up, you lose all credibility as an adult. My question regarding you age is (and was) founded in your comments. I stand corrected on that. The spoiled part is obviously warranted. Regards.

OldER Mycroft
OldER Mycroft

"Which planet are you from?" ...is a 'Colloquialism' ? Really ? >>[i]"A colloquialism is an expression not used in formal speech, writing or paralinguistics. Colloquialisms denote a manner of speaking or writing that is characteristic of familiar "common" conversation; informal colloquialisms can include words (such as "y'all" or "gonna"), phrases (such as "ain't nothin'", "dressed for bear" and "dead as a doornail"), or sometimes even an entire aphorism. ("There's more than one way to skin a cat"). Dictionaries often display colloquial words and phrases with the abbreviation colloq. Colloquialisms are often used primarily within a limited geographical area. Words that have a formal meaning may also have a colloquial meaning that, while technically incorrect, is recognizable due to common usage. For example, though biweekly is truly defined as "every other week", many dictionaries list both "twice a week" and "every other week"."[/i] So, which local dialect, where in the world would you be denoted as hailing from, by saying "Which planet are you from?", other than a town populated by nothing but Trekkies. If you are going to attempt winning a heated discussion involving people of differing intellectual levels, try and ascertain which end of the food chain you belong to before you engage a forward gear with your brain. You, unfortunately have the brains of a Rocking Horse and a command of language to match. ;)

havenmoth
havenmoth

but you assume again you know all

CaptBilly1Eye
CaptBilly1Eye

Talking to the same person twice (W.E. = havenmoth). If anything, it's not my background that makes me feel superior to you. It's your ignorance and lack of maturity that give me that feeling. BTW... 'Luck' has very little to do with success. Therein lies the problem... believing that bad luck is at fault when you don't succeed rather than accepting accountability. ...using two login names gets confusin' don't it?!? Makes it hard to remember who you are logged in as when you reply. ... dead give-away. sucks to be you. :-(

havenmoth
havenmoth

"graduate with distinction in English from Kenyon College in Gambier, Ohio", and feel like it makes them superior- You have a great day Captain, and hopefully someday you can learn to communicate WITH people not AT them!

CaptBilly1Eye
CaptBilly1Eye

I saw the phrase; "and what planet are you living on?" as antagonistic and reacted somewhat harshly. My bad. Chalk it up to a long arduous day as others chained to a machine can probably relate. However, I do think you misunderstood my original statement and it's intent. ... water under da bridge.

CaptBilly1Eye
CaptBilly1Eye

I am well over 35. ...well over 45 for that matter. My Bio is not hidden. I was responding to the comment "and what planet are you living on?" which I viewed as being antagonistic. Perhaps I over-reacted. But I believe that it is more a situation of my original intent being misunderstood. I was not flippantly passing off the current economic environment or the lack of or loss of IT positions. I was merely attempting to shed a positive light on the issue in that I believe it to be a temporary one. IT is still a valid and lucrative career in this country and others! I and others here are living proof. Perhaps it is the increased demand for Quality IT and dedication or some skill you lack that has caused you to feel otherwise. ...sorry things haven't worked out for you. BTW... need a spell-checker?

W.E.
W.E.

I'm guessing your under 35 given your antagonistic attitude. Or just spoiled. Here is your clue: People can't repeatedly be layed off, or outsourced (whatever the reason) and put bread on the table, live off of savings until things get better and at the same time keep their skills current. It's not possible. Hence the need to change carrers as I did. Fewer and fewer IT people, fewer comming out of college or choosing it for a carreer, and more offshoring to get cheeper labor and to replace those that had to leave. IT is not a carreer in this contry.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

Almost it's highest expression in fact, we are commodity..... May be it's better to be rude than at best naive.

raykaville
raykaville

>Supply and demand no longer includes american workers

havenmoth
havenmoth

Of course economics plays a role- the piece (supply and demand) of econimics referenced in my prior post- simple states the fact that American works are no longer considered the determing factor for IT employment, others are now a larger piece of that pie...have a great day

CaptBilly1Eye
CaptBilly1Eye

You have no idea what you are talking about. The current state of the economy has EVERYTHING to do with the lack of business growth. and without business growth... or in the current economic environment.. business decline, there is a lessening in availability of all positions - including IT. As the tech sector begins to grow again (as it most assuredly will) so too will IT opportunities.

laura.ahrens
laura.ahrens

If you are not allowed to do the technical jobs in your workplace and they won't pay for technical training, the only way you'd keep tech skills is to do it on the side. I've watched technical jobs leave the company for 3 or 4 years now. This is a business decision to see IT as non-core competency. It is considered a service to purchase.

Menopausal
Menopausal

Wow, I'd like to live on the same planet you're on. A completely merit-based system would be a hugely welcome relief.

W.E.
W.E.

I go back to the 90s as well. Outsourcing is not happening becaouse of a lack of talent in this country. A lack of talent in this country happens due to outsourcing. Why would someone want a career in IT when I see net admin jobs posted for $12 an hour? Several of these posts agree there is no job security. Combine that with low pay, and a constant need to train on an ongoing basis to stay employable, and you may be better of becoming a lawn mower mechanic (seriously). Most of this is due directly to corporate americas view of employees... "you are how we can make more money. By paying you less, laying you off, or outsourcing you". Coyote.

laura.ahrens
laura.ahrens

I work for a fortune 50 company and it is a strategic business decision to "co-source" our IT tech support for some time now. The remaining IT staff will only keep employment if they have good project and program management skills. It's been years since I have even been allowed to take on a technical project. My technical skills have little value any more in this environment. If I want to keep my tech skills up I have to persue that on my own.

araghuraman
araghuraman

Canada is gr8. Foreign workers cannot work as contractor? That is, the person who assigns them work and supervises them daily has to be an employee of the same company. US symbolizes "Capitalism Gone Wild" whereas Canada brings some moderation to the party. You have health insurance if you are unemployed a big plus. Of course you pay more in taxes but it is no biggie.

raykaville
raykaville

It didn't used to be that way. My career began in 1972 and I too spent many hours glued to a scope or logic analyzer. I could have written that A+ exam and probably added a bunch. Still, getting work today is miserable. The new mindset is due to fast moving hotshots from higher education. Where colleges used to promote business management, they now promote ways to make a fast buck. It's easier to commission a team to split a company into it's component parts and sell each one off for profit. The remainder get bargained off and all the upper echelon walk away with a pocket of cash. It's been my experience through four of the five companies I worked for (which have all closed) since my first job. I watched it happen first time at my first company. As I walked bleary eyed into the document center looking for a tech manual at 2am I witnessed a half dozen strange suits making copies of legal documents. A year later the company was split and closed. A friend of mine actually did this for awhile (a Harvard and Yale grad) and made a bunch of cash. Bottom line is there is no "company" anymore. It's all "me" from the top down. When it gets to the director level the human interest part comes into play (depending on the specific individual) and the funding dissipates. In the last company I worked for as a high level system admin I had occasion to peruse the VP of HP's laptop and (knowing better) looked over a couple of files that were irresistable. I didn't share the information, but it also didn't surprise me. The staff hadn't had a raise for the first 4 years I worked there - including me - because of falling profits. The president was pulling in $500k per year with stock benefits and several other "perks" and all the upper management were reaping the same rewards. Everyone knew this president was killing the company right down to the lowliest worker. Eventually he was asked to leave by the board and given a $5M golden parachute with full benefits till he obtained another position. Again, all of this was hush hush, but as an IT guy I had some insight. The company is in process of being split and sold. I'm pounding sand trying to find a spot with reasonable (I'll take a $15k cut just to work) pay so I can pay my bills. It's difficult even after a year. When I started out the original goal was to get in with one of the big companies. They looked out for the employees and the employees worked hard to make the company grow. Terms like "Mother Met" come to mind. Then the mindset changed. There is no "company loyalty" anymore because there is no company anymore. It's all about fat cats getting rich and living the high life. Unless you find a small company that carries unique management, and they usually don't last long. Bottom line. Greed is good. Don't worry about who you step on, just grab what you can. IMHO a real bad attitude that will eventually kill this country.

brian.keenan
brian.keenan

I work in IT in Australia and have worked with many overseas people on work visas. Prospects for IT professionals are generally quite good. A newly elected federal government is committed to downsizing the federal public service. This should result in more IT outsourcing and further improve opportunities for IT professionals and companies. Check out the department of immigration site for information about working here: http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/index.htm

thinker999
thinker999

Is Australia one of the countries where, if you intend to immigrate there to work, that you have to prove that you're bringing in a skill that they consider 'in short supply?'

thinker999
thinker999

Lafeyette said.... >There just isn't any loyalty to the >workforce in this country. Yep, it's always amazed me that the term "company loyalty" meant loyalty of the employees *to* the company.. Bass-ackwards if you ask me. >It's even inherent in the common >'corporate-speak' usage of the >term "resources" to mean "people". It de-personalizes the issue. If corporate officers had to think of each of us as people, it might make it harder for them to show us the door, or to treat us as they'd like to be treated. By grouping us people in with desks, vehicles, office supplies and raw materials as one more 'resource' it makes it easier to trivialize the effect of their decisions on "people," and to not hesitate a moment when deciding to dump them like yesterday's trash. >How many people have had their >lives destroyed by an ill-timed >layoff? OK, I've gotta ask.. Is there any such thing as a "well-timed" layoff? ;-)

sboverie
sboverie

I am an old timer in IT, actually, I started when it was called DP. Part of the problem with a lack of job security in IT is that technology changes so fast. I started work in 1980 for a company that made mainframes. At the same time, the mainframe market was stagnant. Mainframes are expensive and most of the new mainframes were replacing current mainframes. There was no growth in the mainframe industry. My next job was servicing small systems computers. Small systems were attractive to small and medium sized businesses. The systems are set up using dumb terminals initially, the terminals became more powerful and eventually replaced by Personal Computers. Mainframes and small systems are still out there, but the biggest share of computing has gone to networked PCs. One of the ironies of having PCs take over terminals was that productivity went down because people were doing other tasks with their PCs. The most secure jobs in IT are those that can't be off shored and that is hands on repair or diagnosis. This is also the lower pay for IT. If you add in the massive loss of manufacturing jobs, coupled with retraining of those workers to do IT work, you find that IT is a bad career move in hind sight. You can keep up by training yourself, but there is always specialized information that is not available to the majority of IT people. I find the current model of training to be highly inadequate leading to "paper" certified techs. The US corporate mindset is part of the problem. The bottom line is more important than anything else, cutting costs by making someone outside the corp makes the corp look better on the bottom line. US corps would rather hire people with spotty understanding than to pay to train them to be proficient. DP was more demanding than IT in some ways. The early requirements were to have strong electronic skills, read schematics, use meters and scopes to troubleshoot the problem to the component level and replace the component. We also had to be able to work out the "truth table" of circuits. Programming was not important to techs then as it is now.

nriddle
nriddle

My friend in school had family in Australia. From his family's point of view, Australia had a room for growth in the IT sector but even though demand for IT workers was increasing, they wouldn't call it 'high'. So there is potential but its not really a 'hot market' for IT jobs. I also am considering finding a one way ticket out of uncle sam (walton) land...

ryumaou@hotmail.com
ryumaou@hotmail.com

You may want to consider heading to Australia, actually. I read two articles from AustralianIT.com that talk about the shortage of qualified IT workers there and the growth in IT jobs. I'm not sure if it's verboten to link to my own blog on this, but I just posted something this morning about that and have links to both articles. http://www.ryumaou.com/hoffman/netgeek/?p=1447 (I'm sure if I've violated the spirit of the forum/page/etc. here a moderator will tell me and do what's required to this comment.)

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