Windows

Vista SP1 causes reduced functionality for some programs

The long awaited release of the first service pack for Vista is now just around the corner. Software maker Microsoft is still planning a mid March release of the update that is reputed to increase the security and stability of the operating system. But there have been challenges along the way.

The long-awaited release of the first service pack for Vista is now just around the corner. Software maker Microsoft is still planning a mid-March release of the update that is reputed to increase the security and stability of the operating system. But there have been challenges along the way.

First reported on Feb. 20, a prerequisite update has been pulled from the Windows Update site until programmers can resolve an issue that led to some computers running Vista to go into an endless reboot cycle.

On Feb. 21, Microsoft published KB935796 warning that there is a known list of programs that will lose functionality when SP1 is applied. Loss of functionality means that the program will be blocked on your PC; will not run at all; or will run with reduced functionality. You can find the list of known issues in the KB article.

From CNET:

The list is not considered to be comprehensive, and Microsoft has asked users who encounter problems with other applications to first restart their PC and, if they still encounter problems, to install a newer version of the program or contact the software vendor.

Without SP1 incompatibilities, Windows Vista is already facing an ingrained perception by enterprise users of incompatibility with old systems, said Joseph Sweeney, an analyst at Intelligent Business Research Services.

Issues of back compatibility require regression testing on old applications, making any deployment very painful to do in one install, he said. "In theory, you only have to fix it once, and you should be able to deploy it across your whole environment, but many organizations do not have a highly automated deployment."

The problems with SP1 will only make backward-compatibility issues worse, he said, especially since many companies have been waiting to deploy the operating system until the release of the service stack.

It is interesting to note that of the 12 programs listed, half are security products such as Bit Defender and Zone Alarm. Many of the programs have updates posted on their Web sites to return the program to functioning properly.

From Information Week:

Microsoft said the blocks occur because the antivirus programs are not compatible with Vista SP1. "For reliability reasons, Microsoft blocks these programs from starting after you install Windows Vista SP1," the company said in a statement posted Wednesday on its support Web site.

Microsoft also said Vista SP1 prevents a small number of other programs from working properly, including Novell's ZCM Agent and The New York Times reader software.

Many businesses have chosen to not move toward Vista, using SP1 as the landmark that must be reached first. Considering the issues that have resulted from trying to reach that point, do you think that SP1 is still a valid landmark, or do you think that there is additional maturing that the operating system needs to do first?

More information:

Microsoft says Vista SP1 blocks third party apps (Channel Web Network)

Microsoft warns on Vista update (BBC News)

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84 comments
grebsnig1
grebsnig1

So far I have been able to restore functionability to all my programs by adding them to the, "Data Execution Prevention List".

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

I was one of the few, perhaps the only one, who found Vista to be a nicely working OS before SP1. I had some MINOR issues with installing older programs where the installer would hang and then get going again. I found a work around for One Note in Office 2007 (causing hangs in the Vista installer) and things worked fine again. AFTER installing SP1, I have a 3-5 second hang while the tool tray is loading, IE seems a bit pickier and not quite as quick at work, at home it is fine. I have thought about rolling back the SP to just run the initial OS installed (Vista Home Premium) but figured I'd wait it out as it is not really that bad. I had FAR worse problems to resolve when XP came out with SP1 (not for myself ((I hated XP and always reinstalled Win2K)) but for users at the time). And this is just a minor and very picky issue that doesn't impede my work or PC use at all. Again, I will stand alone and say that I still prefer Vista to XP, always have and will until the do something better I guess. For someone who has always resented MS, I must admit that Vista just aint as bad as many people try to make it seem.

JCitizen
JCitizen

I hope you don't mind me asking what type of processor, RAM, and bus speed you are using. I go to Vista only grudgingly and out of necessity to support my clients. But I am very sceptical of the merits of most of the hardware I see for sale out there.

alexisisin
alexisisin

so many problems with Vista Ultimate-within 6 months of purchase system crashed twice,unable to download any programs including reboot. After SP1, eveything starting shutting down starting from internet access,closing of programs irratically to the shut down of flash cards. Company won't swithch out Vista Operating System for XP! I don't feel I should have to pay more for a puter that is already 9 mths old (purchasing and changing op sys) Just back from Puter repair store (2nd place taken) they replace the harddrive and the system board-I have had it back 3 days. It does accept the CD downloads now but still can't access or utilize Outlook-not always good to trust the Big Guy! They leave you hanging in the wind.....

Buff Loon
Buff Loon

My Hp/Vista has crashed several times too, try using the vista "system restore" aka the "f-11 alternate boot System for Vista" and select a time when your OS was running OK. Do a fresh restore point when you get it running ok. Then wait and hope (Pray Hard too) for MS to fix Vista's beta problems, aka "field proofing for production". Read your Eula, you do have the right to downgrade to XP, it is a little bit of a hassle, but working through your Machine Manufacturer (some are hard to reach, just keep banging on their support sites)telling them the problems you are having, and ask them to honor their warranty and involve MS before it expires. Treat them just like you would when you by a new car and get a Lemon. All manufacturers and software persons are aware of Vista's problems, Microsoft will have to work with them or things will get so bad more customers will quit buying machines with vista installed. Hang in there....it's not much consolation, but MS is going to have to drain the Swamp very soon... it is full of alligators.

chaz15
chaz15

that don't run anyway under Vista SP1 or not!! VERY MANY THOUSAND!!!!!!!

dinotech
dinotech

I've been studying Steve Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. When he was commenting on Think Win-Win, he mentioned of a restaurant that had the best clam chowder you couldn't get near the place in the afternoon. He stated that market insistence was present even after new owners watered down the clam chowder. Microsoft suffered a similar fate when they left Windows 3.11 which was very useful for me, and started to compete with Apple. When Windows NT was released, it had the look and feel of Mac, but it was stable and the domain controller concept was born. There were issues, yes, but for the most part it ran well and there are still some shops running NT as part of their infrastructure. When Windows 95 surfaced at the same time, it was compared to the Mac immediately and that is where market insistence, customer satisfaction took a hit. Windows 98, Me, and XP followed with their own "withdrawls" from the customer base. At least XP was a major improvement on Windows 98. Fast forward to Windows Vista. I've been using Vista on my Dell XPS M1530 for a few months now. It has not given me any problems and I enjoy using it. I use XP at my part-time tech job where I enjoy using that as well. So, when I hear about problems with the Windows OS and then problems with the service packs, it is not just a problem with Microsoft, it is a problem with the software development community. There are several release points that Microsoft has had with SP1 - why haven't the anti virus programs dealt with them? Edit: Let me add here that with the release of any software update, whether it is from Microsoft, Adobe, or any other software development company, you have to take responsibility and PREPARE for the installation. So many times I get calls from users stating that they downloaded an update and nothing has worked right since. Most of the time, they failed to read the READ ME file, or the web site as to HOW to install the update. With SP1, there is Virtual PC which can be used to put Vista and SP1 on it. If you don't have VPC, ask a friend who is a computer geek (don't tell me you can't find one), and have him set up a test station. There are options here, people, to make sure the service pack doesn't cause problems. A thank you goes out to Microsoft for the KB article about software that didn't work with SP1. I had a similar experience with SP1 when I decided to install it prior to the RC; McAfee Security Suite (Comcast) had stopped working properly. I was definately protected - I couldn't FTP to my web site due to "security policies are forbidding access to a socket" or some similar message; I couldn't access the utility that allowed me to unblock the program. I restored my computer to factory settings, and it has been working like a charm since. What market insistence/preference has done to Microsoft is put the expectation that when you release a software package, it is expected to work appropriately and not cause problems where the time and effort of the customer is required to solve them. However, Microsoft is at a disadvantage from the start. In addition to the myriad of hardware devices for the PC, Microsoft has to deal with a developer community and ISV's that don't follow methodology very well. Microsoft has made every effort to post how to develop software for the Windows platform. If you look at MSDN and TechNet, you will find resources, blogs, and forums of information. Add to that the TS2 events for partners, the developers conference, and other resources available, there is no reason why software developers cannot prepare for Windows OS. Okay, so maybe there are issues between how to implement the changes, but people, that shouldn't be the reason why the anti virus software is being blocked. That's a matter of preparing your product for the release of SP1. If Zone Labs didn't provide customers with a solution prior to the release of the KB article, that falls on Zone Labs (they were bought by Check Point). Microsoft can only control what it has access to: the OS. It is dependent on a vibrant software community and has made available resource help the community. It has also provided hardware manufactures with its WDM SDK. There are no excuses, and I can determine where the issue lies with Sysinternal's Process Monitor. Most of you have posted that you have no use for MS, or Vista. That is where the market insistence has changed. Mr. Covey put it together with a string of verbs that included "acceptance" and the "rejection" There have been too many withdrawls from MS and it has cause people to search elsewhere for their "clam chowder". However, I am one of the few that will continue to work with Microsoft and be involved with their software products, including the OS, to make them better and improve customer perception. BTW, an article just released in my local newspaper that "Microsoft pledges to be open" I hope they do. I've never used any open source products before - at least none that I have pursued to use on my own. I don't have anything against open source other than what would happen if a project just stopped being supported. Market Insistence is a powerful factor in the win-win arena, and Microsoft is understanding that now. Windows 7, slated for 2010, should be the evidence needed to see if MS finally gets a clue on customer value. As Balthor stated above, there are people that are in Microsoft that don't belong there. But there is one person that is making a difference, and that is Mark Rossinovich. If you haven't read any of his blogs, he provides case studies of what happens behind the OS when problems occur. His programs Process Explorer and Process Monitor are invaluable tools that can help find the root cause of many problems in the OS. Thanks Mark!

normhaga
normhaga

that the developer should make every effort to keep up with MS during the development process. The releases from MS often indicate that MS does not know where it will go next - maybe the case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. If you spend a lot of time and resources attempting to keep up with the MS updates RC, beta's, etc., then you employ many programmers but still do not know if the next RC or beta will destroy the work and resources you expended. For this reason, I support waiting until the final RTM and then working toward a solution. With enough heat from the user base maybe MS will work with a defined goal.

dinotech
dinotech

Programming is an art form. When an artist has an idea that they want to portray, they decide on several things, but they rely on a methodology that helps them make those decisions (i.e Ansel Adams). The same is true for programmers and software development teams. If you are targeting the Windows platform, you need to make sure that your methodology includes working with any MS releases that are available to you. The project manager is responsible for being involved in getting those releases to the team in a timely manner. It will not require more programmers, just more efficient programmers that know their role as stated in the methodology used. Too many software development companies use their resource outside their elements and end up creating sloppy products. Nothing says it more than those $9.99 programs you can get at Walmart or Office Max (My Checkbook, My Resume, etc.) I've had a few that were really good in concept but a pain to work with because it doesn't refresh the window when you scroll the document. However, I agree that MS has to get better at their programming and project development practices. With Mark Russinovich on the team for the OS, and with his blogs, you will see the changes in the next couple of years. I do believe Windows 7 will be the coming of age for MS.

JCitizen
JCitizen

You suppose project followup management is corroding under Ballmer; or the whole shebang? I figure a person such as yourself and the previous poster have a better feel for this than the usual forum surfer.

normhaga
normhaga

that programming is an art form, BUT why did the U of Utah stress the Science portion of BSCS when I attended? If you have read any of Donald Knuths books, or any of many others by leaders in the field, then you will find that there is more science and application of algorithm than Art. At any rate, what I was implying is that when MS releases a beta product it works in a given manner. The next beta of the same driver or application may or may not work at all. And it really gets my goat when some programmer from India sends me email asking for my system logs because he/she can't figure out why the product does not install. This happend, by the way, with Visual Studio 2008. Alls the programmer had to read was the post I put up on the MS beta site and it gave all the information. While I expect that a product will change during development, I do not expect the underlying methodology to change.

seanferd
seanferd

is that MS tends to market it's software as something users won't have to study up on to use and update without problems. This is why people become disappointed when things break. As far as updates go, auto-update is on by default, as recommended. So, what then, when an update breaks something? The problem code does not identify itself, and some updates cannot be installed. MS would have a better time of it if it were more honest in it's marketing and any implied usability of software, regardless of what it says in a EULA. All MS needs to do is to be up front with the realities of computing, rather than marketing in a perfect dream-world.

The Scummy One
The Scummy One

even if the system(s) are told not to use auto-update, occasionally they still do. So it is not a choice of reading the 'read me file' or testing an update, if it is forced, there is no way around it.

dinotech
dinotech

Thanks for your "unbiased" reply. While I do agree that Bill Gates had controls put into place regarding his company, and it is standard business practice for a company to control intellectual property as well as the physical, financial, and human resources. If you are employed, walk in the office with a t-shirt, cutoffs, and flip-flops, bring a fish with you and gut it on your desk. Absurd? Why? Don't you deserve your freedom to do that? As for the "junky code", try writing a three million line coded operating system the first time without having any issues with the hardware. And don't try to compare MS with Apple; Apple doesn't allow it's hardware to be cloned, so they are the only company that sells their computers. If MS had control of the hardware, the value of the OS would change dramatically. But we don't, so MS is doing what it can to help bring the OS to a level of standard akin to Apple. BTW, MS hired Mark Russinovich from Sysinternals to help out with the OS Core. His blogs provide insight to the so-called "junky code" through using Process Monitor. You can find his blogs here: http://blogs.technet.com/markrussinovich/ I've never had a use for a DVD maker, but I am sure that the Windows DVD maker is a basic version, just like Windows Photo Gallery. I use Picasa for my media collector and I find that program works well for my needs. As for the Windows Media Center, I have no use for that either; I'm not one of those multimedia guru's; my time is spent on learning about MS products, being active in the MS Partner community, and increasing my skill set as a technician, and as a consultant in the near future. As for the Auto Updates: I have it set to install only the critical updates, and if there is an issue with the update, I can roll back to the previous install through system restore and/or uninstall the update. Either way, I back up my important files, and on my Dell XPS M1530, I can perform a system restore in a matter of minutes. However, I have not had to do that in the few months I have used this computer. As part of my web site I am building, I will have a blog on all of my experiences as a technician and consultant to share with others. I'll include any issues with MS that I come across that other people should know about. BTW the 900 pound gorilla shed some weight when Bill Gates left the company and turned over the reins to two individuals. All that is left is Steve Ballmer, who I personally think is trying to play nice (a few reports in the Seattle Times shows MS is attempting to go into the open source arena, but time will tell how far they will go.) MS isn't to blame for what has happened in this industry. Bill Gates had an opportunity and took it. He bought his way into the hearts and minds of IBM, and IBM failed to see the value in the hardware for the PC (they were still in a mainframe business model at the time). Once the opportunity for the PC became apparent, manufacturers "clean roomed" the BIOS and started making clones. For a long time, you could exist off of hardware sales, but today, you would be lucky to break even. When MS was in its infancy, the current value of DOS/Win combination was widely accepted by the geeks: a command line interface that was customizable (batch programming, C language programming) and a GUI interface that was programmable as well (albeit, a bit difficult since you had to manage the windowed interface yourself). But, the opportunity was there and Bill took it. He wasn't the best businessman at the time, but he knew what to do at the time and when to do it. And he had Paul Allen, and then hired Steve Ballmer. From there, they charted a course that was a freight train with no stops (which I see as part of the problem with their culture). However, the people they hired to manage the intellectual property were rude, arrogant, and nasty. The dealings that occurred between hardware manufacturers and MS were not pleasant. That is where the control started to take place. With Windows 95, the obvious comparison to Apple also started (Bill didn't like being ignored by Steve Jobs when he introduced himself - reference the TV movie). But Bill was a businessman, and he wanted to get into the industry as quickly and cheaply possible. With a family of lawyers, it is no surprise that the company is referred to as the 900-pound gorilla. Just as IBM did in the 90's, Microsoft will re-invent themselves in this century. IBM survived and MS will also survive. I've been a proud partner with MS, and I plan on helping them achieve a better perception in the industry. However, I will not ignore Linux or Mac and I plan on having those skills in my skill set. As for things being "hacked", it is well known that you can "customize" windows by manipulating the registry. Tweak UI among other programs are useful for this. But I don't see the need to be hacking Windows unless there is improvement in speed and stability (i.e MTU > 1500 for dial-up). Thanks Jason

dinotech
dinotech

I don't know everything about this industry, and I didn't know that there were updates being downloaded to Windows with the Automatic Updates turned off. If you have the links to the articles, that would be great. I'll do a search on stealth updates.

dinotech
dinotech

Only when Auto Update has been turned on. I'll run a lab and verify it. Also, if you are in a domain environment, then the domain policy overrides the local setting for Automatic Updates.

Buff Loon
Buff Loon

Hyo Dinotech, the Eula in the MS OS's are very comprhensive. Bill Gates is a Lawyer first and a Billionare second, why, because he needs to always be in CONTROL, politely said,Proactive. Look at the personalities of MS, Symantec, General Electric, Haliberton, GWB LLC, ChaneyoilCo, etc, etc, and you will find they take control period. Their software is written such that their control is primary, and the function secondary. Ask around, any Geek, Hacker, or Security software designer will open your eyes. MS has a lot of junky code in some of their programs, and wants to protect them to keep control of the System. Try Windows DVD maker, or ask around, it is a piece of junk. Windows Media Center is a one way street; tried to configure it for your use? I respect your position and advice, I did'nt write you to pick a fight, I just wanted to remind you about the 900 pound gorilla, and hope you'll be judicial by shutting of the "AUTO" in update, picking updates that will salvage your working OS's. I use my machine for Music Creation and Media Graphics, I don't have time to be tinkering on my Mustang, or my HP/MS GTO, I need a dependable machine and anyone who tries to mess with them will get their banana filching paws smacked. PS: if you can't shut off the auto update it can be "hacked" aka "Progammed" out. Good luck in the IT Business. jacontop2

seanferd
seanferd

Search "stealth update" on the 'net. You'll find a lot of info about this, including on TR. MS had responses about the stealth updates also. After the furor died down, they did it again. I can't remember if Vista was doing this, but XP was. If I'm not mistaken, this type of action is provided for in the EULA, also. If I have time later, I'll find the site of the first guy to report the MS stealth update. You'll have fun reading about it.

burkew0@comcast.net
burkew0@comcast.net

Ever seen "Please wait while updates are installed" when shutting down XP ?

dinotech
dinotech

How does that work Scummy? I've never in my career seen any software update itself automatically without a users consent. Not only is there a legal issue regarding software updates themselves, but there is a legal issue of updating software when you told it not to. If you have any evidence of a software program updating itself without a users consent, that needs to be forwarded to the appropriate authorities immediately. That is worse than a root-kit, and that can be a real danger to certain industries. Are you suggesting that Microsoft updates their software without our consent? Where is your evidence that proves this theory? I'm curious, so if you prefer to message me privately, I'll be willing to listen.

dinotech
dinotech

I agree with you Sean. I also know that there are individuals at the top that have created a culture of marketing perfection versus a quality product. People have been alienated at MS because of it. Balthor's post extends to full-timers and part-timers. What is the saying? Too many cooks in the kitchen? Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians? MS grew too big and too fast on that marketing arm and they are paying for it. Again, back to my statement of Market/Customer insistence & preference.

BALTHOR
BALTHOR

Microsoft has no concept of the real world use for computers.They appear to be going deliberately against the grain.Microsoft should be at Divine mastery instead of plodding through.We are babysitting Microsoft.All of the man hours used to write these articles are an attempt to straighten Microsoft out."We hope that someday they will change".

seanferd
seanferd

Ho, yes. Divine mastery is right. You'd think.

JCitizen
JCitizen

nt

meryllogue
meryllogue

Isn't it really what all the complaining is about? Wanting MS to get it "right" from end to end? Unfortunately, of course, "right" to you is not necessarily the same thing to me. So it becomes an exercise in futility. But it was an interesting posit... that and the phrase "divine mastery." It seems like there is need for more mastery if you look at how long this OS has plodded along at such a huge and bloated size. Maybe that is my ignorance speaking, though.

boxfiddler
boxfiddler

all the home users who somewhat blindly install Updates without reading the fine print are going to find themselves SOL when it comes to some of their installed software? Brilliant.

brando.fouts
brando.fouts

It is interesting to note that of the 12 programs listed, half are security products such as Bit Defender and Zone Alarm. No surprise to me. MS alwasys crushes competitors anyway it can.

Amir.Lalami
Amir.Lalami

This is a simple problem which can be avoided by disabling the UAC (User Account Control) in the MsConfig dialogue (RUN: msconfig.exe)

amj2010
amj2010

reading about ironing out all illegal copies and creating an OS with less functionality seems to be a hazard..

michael2244
michael2244

I agree with Richard Wilson. I installed Vista SP1 on x64 Vista Business, and it runs much faster.

JCitizen
JCitizen

In my opinion. I can see why MS wouldn't make an even larger risk leaping to that situation where backward compatibility would be even worse. If Redmond hadn't put so much distance between the company and the hardware/software developers, they could have made a bold leap work. The Vista experience would have been more successful though, I'm sure. Perhaps the virtual machine and the Vista project should have gone hand in hand.

Tig2
Tig2

I wonder which version Richard Wilson is running. Everything that I have been able to find on the subject indicates that Microsoft has determined that it is certain installations that develop the prerequisite SP update error. I wonder too if the people who initially responded on the Microsoft blog about the error were running any of the programs that are affected by the SP. I imagine that as Microsoft researches the error, we will get better information. As for the SP, many of the linked sites in the KB article already have updates so those programs can be re-enabled quickly.

Elvis.Is.Alive
Elvis.Is.Alive

Great, just what we needed, LESS functionality. I notice that ZoneAlarm is on the list. The others, I could care less about, but having to go download a "latest" version of ANOTHER program just because MS released a patch is BS.

meryllogue
meryllogue

Is Vista worth the upgrade? I work for a company that sells hardware and services to smaller companies, and some of our hardware is going EOL. When we replace it, the new machines come pre-loaded with Vista. I am wondering if it is really going to have an impact on our service business (phones and field). I guess time will tell. I am so used to reading rabid anti-Microsoft posts that it is impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff. Nearly all of it is opinion (invective, really) and so I just don't have a clear picture of its efficacy or potential impact. The "signal-to-noise" ratio is so high that it is nearly impossible to tell what the reality is.

Buff Loon
Buff Loon

Hey Meryl_logue@ Vista is NOT an upgrade, NO it's not worth it! The hotter invectives (opinions) are mostly from clients that have been rolled over by makemesoft...Ie: win98SE, NT,2000,Millenium and so forth. I agree it is hard to judge from all the comments, what I do is read them looking for leads...to investigate for myself, and sometimes they can get pretty amusing. If it's important to your welfare and to your company...I suggest you/they take some time and spend a day or two comparing the XP, XPx64 and Vista doing the same work load on each unit, and compare the amount of time, problems, and ease/hassle of use. Your Company should be eligible to purchase XPx64's or XP-86 machines for business use, since Moneysoft relaxed the restrictions to manufacturers allowing them to install XP OEM's on new machines for Business clients. Some of The smoke you see could be somebody burnin hot dogs...but you should look into it..it could be a real fire everybody is screamin about... I wish you luck and good judgement, Heaven knows we need all the service jobs in this country...Billy G boy is lobbying to import service workers for his IT needs...half the jobs or more have been exported to other countries, do we want the other half taken over by ( better(?)educated/cheap labor)imported workers... I hope my words are worth a nickle.. jaxontop2

Dumphrey
Dumphrey

and that experience has been problematic, but, I think Vista will work as a replacement for XP. Not an upgrade, but a replacement. On new hardware, Vista performs well (only if decent new hardware, brand new via c7? No way..). And in most cases it works as it should. As for impact on support, it will either bu huge or only minimal, depending on how fast and often you send out Vista based machines. A few machines here and there, people will call in at first, then adjust. A lot at once, and a big influx of calls before people adjust... The real issue is going to be what gets broken next in the Vista cycle...

Timbo Zimbabwe
Timbo Zimbabwe

"The "signal-to-noise" ratio is so high that it is nearly impossible to tell what the reality is." Truth be told, Vista, just like Mac, is not for everyone. Nothing inherently right or wrong with it, really. From what I understand, it is easy to fall in love with. The problem seems to be the 1st date.... ;)

PogiDaga
PogiDaga

If you want to enjoy a program on your TV or radio, signal is good and noise is bad. Therefore a high signal to noise ratio means you can enjoy the program. If your favorite discussion board becomes tedious to read because it seems there is more heat than light, then the signal to noise ratio has gotten too low. Or if you prefer, you can say the heat-to-light ratio has gotten too high.

$dunk$
$dunk$

Being system admin for my wife's home computer running XP was nearly a 2nd job for me. I have no idea how she managed to screw things up so much. Anyways, I upgraded her computer to Vista and I pretty much haven't had to fix any problems at all in 6 months. That's the plus side. On the down side, I had to buy new hardware (e.g. printer, scanner) because the old equipment was not compatible and no updated drivers are available. Also, there are some programs that no longer run. So just looking at my situation, the OS is definately more reliable. However, you will have extra costs because new equipment and software will need to be bought. If that's any help.

Tig2
Tig2

That is one of the reasons I chose to do these two stories- they both are "Microsoft direct" with links to pertinent information in the Microsoft Knowledge Base. I think that the important question that your company will have to ask is first if there is any negative impact from changing now and second if there is a definable benefit. In general, business tends to wait to adopt a new OS until the stability of the first SP is validated. Vista's SP1 is nearing release and some flaws are to be expected. But knowing what they are can be helpful- a small business using Zone for instance, now also knows that they will need to update that installation if they move to Vista SP1. I would hope that the discussion not become an anti- Microsoft rant. That was never my intention in writing the articles.

richard.wilson
richard.wilson

I honestly respect your opinions and have enjoyed reading a lot of your posts for some time now, but seriously, how did you not expect this discussion to become just another Microsoft rant? In my observation, most of TechRepublic (I would say about 80%)is nothing more than Microsoft bashing. There are so many haters here, I have often thought of cancelling my membership and going to a less bias source for information. We all know this is true, it just isn't said enough. I stay though, because I value most of the information I glean from the articles found a TR and I am not going to be "bullied" away. I think the real problem these days is what I like to refer to as "IT laziness" (I have posted about this on many forums including the MS ITAC). I feel the problem is that supposed "IT professionsals" want everything to run smoothly with no issues. They want all the money and "glamour" (lets face it, we computer geeks are looked up to) but they don't want to (or often times can't) fix problems. This is a pipe dream at best. In the ever changing, ever evolving world of technology, no one can predict what will happen from one machine to another. Where would we be if our geek forefathers decided something just didn't work and they didn't want to fix it or learn from it or make it better? Would we still be DOS formatting? This is the core of IT. When it breaks, we fix it. When it doesn't work right, we make it work right. It may take some time. It may take some hard work. But at the end of the day, we make it work. Who else is going to do it? Like I said, IT laziness.... Here is what I posted a while ago when yet another round of "Vista is crap" was going around: Yet another round of Vista and Microsoft bashing. Ahh...it's so refreshing. It doesn't get old at all. Let's get real. Sure Vista has some problems. I'll be the first to admit I wasn't very happy with it when I first started playing with it. But then again, I can't think of a single OS that has come out that has been bug free. Does anyone remember XP's first days? How about Windows 98? And YES even the mighty MAC OS X has problems, although you never hear about them due to the overwhelming hatred for Windows. Here's the thing though. In my Vista experience (i now own a ThinkPad T60p with Vista Ultimate installed) I have had problems, but instead of banging my head on the keyboard, screaming at my monitor, and raising my fist in the air cursing Gates' name, I calmly and collectively fixed my problems. Sure, some of them took some time, and of course, some of them required outside help, but they got fixed, and I am a much better Vista troubleshooter now than before. I am happy to say my Vista Ultimate runs beautifully. (yes, even my Cisco Vista VPN) The truth of the matter is this: Vista isn't going away, Microsoft isn't going away, no matter how much you hate them. Instead of whining and moaning about every little problem Vista has, learn from them. Learn to troubleshoot and fix them. I appluad those who at least try Vista and try to learn it before totally trashing it on their favorite blogs. Is Vista perfect? No, of course not. Are the problems with Vista unfixable? No again. Think of it this way, if every piece of software worked perfectly, if every scrap of hardware ran flawlessly, we ALL in the IT industry would be out of jobs! If you have chosen to be in the IT field as your career, then eventually you are going to have to fix stuff. If everytime something broke or didn't work right, we waved our hands and said "this is junk, this is crap", we would never get anywhere. Personally, I welcome the challenge. Bring on Server '08! P.S. I'm sure I'll get burned for this post, but this is honestly how I feel so....FLAME ON!

Buff Loon
Buff Loon

Hey Rick...I read your message to Tigger, are you referring to our "Chimp" forefathers....the first Geeks... When they came across a banana that did not interface properly, or just hang, they quickly dumped it and grabbed another one.. If they had a bad bunch...they checked to see what the other geeks were doing, and quickly followed suit... Lets face it we Geeks are still hacking on the same old banana, while we pay attention to what the other hackers are coming up with. We Geeks are always looking for the ultimate bunch of banana's from Bananasoft. Just a little pun in what gets lost searching for the forest, too many trees in the way... jaxontop

Buff Loon
Buff Loon

I read your post on Vista, it talks about human nature, ie: bashing, complaining, name calling etc. I read these blogs looking for clues and information, re: the problems I'm having with Vista. I picked up a lot of information, and so did Nickelsoft, it was reflected in the postings on their website, and in the info sent with SP1 for all to understand that SP1 was re-edited to address the largest number of problems and complaints from their clients. I believe all the griping and suggestions made an impact on what SP1 contained when it was finally released to the general public. Musclesoft is a little like Ford in the early days when you purchased a Ford from him, you could get a model T in any color you wanted, as long as it was black. That is why Dodge, Chevrolet, Packard etc: came into being, the Market wanted another choice, and finally got one. What we need, is another choice or color of OS, that can compete with Makemesoft, and spread the griping and suggetions around a little more. Healty competition is what made the Auto industry the indispensible giant that it is. And yes, they still build a few lemons once in while, but you have a choice in what to buy by listening to what others say about which models to stay away from, and which ones will blow the fenders off your neigbors Edsel. Rant on, I'm listening and sometimes very entertained, I've read some very creative gripes and groans. That's my little piece...

Dumphrey
Dumphrey

And decided to go abck to XP for the sole reason that one game I like to play runs better on XP then on Vista. Thats it.. The only program I "had" to give up was an old DOS based game. But I installed a win98 VM in VMware and ahd that back, and it runs better that way then in XP compatibility, so I kept the VM and now use it with XP. As far as my desktop goes, like you, I have a lot invested in making it run the way I like, doing what I like. I see no reason to upgrade to Vista (also, vist runs like poop on it, or at least the beta did, since its single core). But, as a nod to the Pro-Vista crowd, my only issue is Vista provides me no benefit at this point in time to justify the cost. I had some issues. I fixed them. My fiancee runs Vista trouble free (well now that I fixed an issue between Vista and cisco 871 with static NAT translations..she can now play WoW at my house...) If I were to go out and buy a desktop today, I would try to get XP Pro on it, but it would not be a deal breaker. But, if shooting for Vista, I would need to adjust my hardware requirements. I hated Vista Beta. Part of that wa sit was Beta.. Part was it ran very poorly on the machine it was on (AMD64 3200, 1.5 GB ram, ati x1600 agp). I ran Vista again after it had been out for a while, and found things I like (UAC is closer to what I would expect from an OS security and does not bother me in the least with what others refer to as "nagging". I WANT to know if something needs to escalate priveleges). As for Aero, I turned it off right away, so I can make no real comments other then for about 10 minutes, it looked smooth.

lj011
lj011

who is actually lazy here? We users, hardware producers or microsoft? It is normal to expect that product is working or even if it is not that it is fixed in reasonable time. It has been a year that product is out and it is not stable as yet not it looks to me it will be fixed for a while as problems are piling up. I would not expect from experimental product to fully work. However if someone claims to be commercial product that is paid for being used and it is not actually usable this is I am afraid unacceptable. Same things I encountered with some of other MS software aside vista. I believe this is main subject here.

business
business

Richard made many good points. I am not an IT professional. I got Vista Home Premium pre-installed on my latest machine. I promised myself I would use it at least 90 days-- the same promise I made with XP. I didn't last that long. Pretty? Yes. New features? Quite a few and some are very useful-- IF I didn't already have a great security suite, a great disk management program, backup imaging software. Most people have to upgrade their video cards, plug in a bunch of memory, buy various new hardware and get rid of software they love and know how to use in order to upgrade to Vista. None of the arguements I've read have convinced me to go back to Vista. I'll match my XP system with any Vista version out there. Since 2001 I have bought thousands of dollars of software and hardware to make my old PC what it is. XP does everything I need it to do (and of course you can make it as pretty as you please) Things XP lacks I have bought the top of the line software in that category and without fail it does a better job than the watered down features both Vista has and XP had when it was released. I don't hate Microsoft. I just need to sit down on a regular basis and choose whether to spend an excessive amount of money for software with good-- not great-- features, having to buy new PC or do a major upgrade on my current system or do I wait and see what happens a little while down the road. Microsoft is good at what they do-- not great but good. I stayed with Office 2003 rather than spend a load of cash on 2007-- which using the test version for 30 days had no features I cared to spend that kind of money for. I am not going to upgrade and pay big prices to pick up a couple features I already bought elsewhere to have the Microsoft bleeding edge technology. Maybe if they had put out a product with all the promises they said we were getting (like the new file system)I would have stuck it out the 90 days. I would like to see an extension of Richards proposal. Those of you that spend endless posts telling XP users how great Vista is and how superior it is to XP please enjoy Vista and leave the rest of us alone. The hundreds of thousands or more users that have gone back to XP already know what they're missing and find it of little or no value. People say remember all the problems we had with Windows 98? Did you forget something? 'Me' was a total waste of money and looking back most owners would probably agree with that assessment. Maybe the Vista replacement will be a great OS. XP is supported until 2012 so us "backward folk" have plenty of time to wait for the next one.

Tom_geraghty
Tom_geraghty

in fact i'm quite a fan of vista. Combined with office 2007, i've rolled it out to about 12 of my 100 users. We're a service based business (property consultancy), and after a bit of testing, it turns out that the users themselves prefer vista, and it enables them to do more, quicker, and easier than XP. I'm not going to argue - they bring in the money and if it makes my job a little more challenging, then so be it. That's what i'm here for - to provide systems for the business to run on. It shouldn't matter that vista requires more support from IT at this stage. And even to those who say vista is just pretty XP, who cares? Again, if the people doing the business want it, and it helps them (even just psychologically) then it's my job to provide it. Interestingly, the users who have whined about vista are the ones who were essentially xp power-users, and the ones that really liked vista were the ones who have traditionally struggled with IT.

Dave Howard
Dave Howard

I get tried of the Microsoft bashing also. Vista isn't perfect, if fact, no OS is perfect. Instead of all of this negative crap, why don't IT workers get certified in Vista? I'm taking 70-620 and 70-622 very soon so I can make some money off of all of this negative stuff. Vista isn't that difficult if you fix the issues that pop up and get some of these 3rd party venders to get THEIR act toghther. As you said, I remember Xp when it first came out and its issues. I really think people are making a big deal out of this and expect Vista to work perfect. If some of these folks don't like Microsoft products, why don't they download Linux and compile their own OS? That's what I tell the people where I work, download some open source and do your own and put your own damm name on it. Say what? are the answers I get.

JCitizen
JCitizen

Thanks dinotech - we need more people like you, Tigger Two, and Richard here at TR. I agree with you about the passion of helping those especially exhausted by the frustration of the IT reality world. I'm trying to help as many members who write me directly as I can, and I don't care about the pay/or lack of it.

JCitizen
JCitizen

a volunteer Army; they re-up ever tour but gripe every step of the way! I bash Microsoft plenty, but it makes me a living and I won't forget that. However I/we always look for alternatives; I think Redmond knows this more that is generally admitted. They should treat every day as their last, or they won't survive the market. Besides Tech Republic is WAY better than ZDnet; if you like bashing, check out that site! WWHOOEE!!

dinotech
dinotech

Richard, thank you for being direct and stating what needs to be stated. Not everything in this world is going to please everyone at the same time. As for IT laziness, I plan on being a part of the consulting community in the near future and helping those that don't want to take the time to understand the problem and fix it. As for the money, well, I would rather build relationships - they are more valuable than the dollar is right now. The money is the fruit of those relationships. Did Tigger Two get paid to write the post? Did you? No, both of you did it because of passion. I share that passion and I thank you for doing it. Send me a message anytime you want to "talk shop" And keep posting!

Tig2
Tig2

An excellent post- and thank you for it! To some extent there are growing pains with everything. While I chose to not use Vista- I drive a Mac- I agree that there is no such thing as flawless. My decision to go Mac was more to do with what I wanted to be able to accomplish than anything else. That is the great strength today- there are a variety of choices and we are slowly reaching the place of using the option that best meets our needs. We can choose what will get us to where we want to go. Personally, I am interested in seeing what Microsoft's analysis shows. The prerequisite update wasn't a global issue so I would be interested in seeing what set of circumstances caused it.

michaels.perry
michaels.perry

To say "some flaws are to be expected" in relation to a Service pack that makes some PCs go into a constant reboot routine is taking things too far. Yes, some minor flaws can perhaps be tolerated but constant rebooting is hardly minor. A service pack, by definition in the software creation world, is meant to improve the product - not stop people using it. My vote is, so far, don't roll out until you've fully tested it.

seanferd
seanferd

have their OEM partners test on the machines that ship with Vista loaded? Do you have any idea what kind of testing they do, aside from public beta and RC testing?

Timbo Zimbabwe
Timbo Zimbabwe

"That not every circumstance can be tested for." OK, but if you are rolling out a patch to your product on a global scale, you better damn well get closer than they did. Windows is becoming more and more like spaghetti...

Tig2
Tig2

That not every circumstance can be tested for. The update that caused the reboot issue wasn't the SP itself but a prerequisite. When Microsoft became aware of the problem, they pulled the Update out. The programs impacted by the SP must have been a known issue because Microsoft was able to link to fixes. And I guess I do tend to think of all software as being potentially flawed. At one time in my life I wrote the stuff and learned the value of a good debugger!

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