Education

Experience vs. degree debate to heat up in the future


The landscape for IT professionals has changed much over the last decade.  Most new entrants in the field today arrived by way of college degree in Information Science – ready and eager to get their careers started, but noticeably “green” with inexperience.  The seasoned pro may even snicker a bit at just how inexperienced some of the new recruits are.  But you shouldn’t laugh too loudly because situations often turn out as we least expect it, and that newbie you laughed at yesterday could pass you on the career ladder in the near future.  Experienced pros should consider going back to get their IS degrees now to avoid career roadblocks later.

I see team dynamics changing in corporate IT environments; a division between those who got to where they are based solely on experience and those more recent to the field with an academic foundation in IT.  When I entered the field in the early ‘90s, most of the pros in place got to their position through pure raw experience; years in the trenches performing complicated upgrades and working at customer sites to troubleshoot issues that the customer’s IT staff couldn’t fix.  Beginning an IT career usually meant knowing someone at a company who could help get you hired, and thus your foot in the door, or it meant taking a low paying job and working up from the bottom.  Though once you were in, you were in.

Many of the experienced pros had college degrees, but very few had degrees specifically in Information Science.  It just wasn’t needed at the time, and IT workers were in such high demand that it was very rarely listed as a requirement.  In fact, certifications were probably looked for more than most college degrees because the curriculum at many colleges was still geared toward older programming skills such as COBOL.  The assumption back then was, if a person majored in IS he was probably going to be a programmer.  Now, students actually have many more available options to prepare them to compete in the marketplace; options to prepare them to become a system analyst, network analyst, project manager, database analyst and programmer to name a few.  Most even earn industry certifications as part of their curriculum.

Because of the influx of new IT workers sporting IS degrees today, the average seasoned pro will soon face a dilemma – continue to rely on experience and reputation to keep their career moving in the right direction, or bite the bullet and return to college to earn a degree specific to their field.  The consequence of inaction is to become stagnant and get passed by those with far less experience.  Think about it.  Many will soon find themselves at a significant disadvantage when applying for future positions, especially management positions, if they don’t have the diploma to accompany their experience.  It will be dictated by the competition.

It may not bite you until you have to compete for a new job at a new company.  Have you looked at some of the requirements for posted jobs lately?  Besides becoming very specific with desired skill sets and experience with particular vendors, even to the point of specific vendors within specific industries, many new jobs are also requiring a degree in IS.  The competition is fierce.  The biggest example I see of the changing tide is with government jobs.  State and federal jobs are listing a Bachelor or Master degree in Information Science as a requirement for most IT jobs.  There usually are no exceptions for the requirements on a government posted job.  Either you have it or you don’t.  The rule used to be “degree in lieu of experience,” but it is quickly becoming “degree in addition to experience.”

I’ll part with one last example.  I provided advice to a friend five years ago on how to break into the IT field.  He listened and found an entry-level position so he could gain experience while he earned his Bachelor’s degree in Computer Science.  After he earned his degree, his low paying position turned into an intermediate grade position making decent money.  He is now scheduled to complete his Master’s degree later this year.  The irony for me is the fact that this friend that I helped get into the field will be better positioned for future IT jobs than I will, even though I have far more experience. 

My failure to keep pace with incoming competition will catch-up with me if I don’t plan for my future success.  I have to go now.  Class is about to begin.

105 comments
michaelcrawford
michaelcrawford

I'm a C level IT executive with 10+ years experience. I'm also a grade 9 drop out.

TonytheTiger
TonytheTiger

[i]The irony for me is the fact that this friend that I helped get into the field will be better positioned for future IT jobs than I will, even though I have far more experience. [/i] It's kinda like what you want for your children.

bg6638
bg6638

With an Associates Degree, I spent 20+ years as a COBOL/Foxpro programmer. The last 10 years still involved programming, but I spent more time working in systems administration with a mix of pc's & mac's, NT server 3.5/4.0/2k, Exchange 5/5.5/2k3, SQL 6.5/7/2k & ISA server. Then my employer went bankrupt and closed. Recruiters have told me that in the area that I live in, the 30+ years of experience mean *NOTHING* unless you have at least a bachelor's degree, and in some cases the employers prefer a master's degree even for entry-level IT positions! And it gets worse. I decided to see what it would take to get a bachelor's degree. The AAB degree has no transferable credits. To make matters even worse, I need to take four semesters of 090 classes before I can even begin work towards the degree!

LocoLobo
LocoLobo

around here are requiring an internship before you get your bachelors degree. The idea is to get the students some experience. I don't know how well it's working or whether the IT degrees require it or not. The particular student I knew was majoring in accounting. The internship did get her a job offer.

mike
mike

I entered technology in the mid 1980s, without a degree but ready to learn. Because of the Internet emerging at the time and the constant, rapid changes in workstation and server architectures, it was easy to progress and move upward from raw talent and the ability to keep up with things as they changed. Through the past 20 years, technology salaries soared from demand and the ?techies? subsequently found themselves dealing more with senior management. For example, there was a five year period where my salary rose 300% and I found myself in front of directors and those at the ?C? levels of some very large corporations. With very good reason, they have very low tolerance for highly paid individuals who lack commitment or excellent communication skills. A degree demonstrates commitment and, to an extent, an individual?s ability to learn and communicate their understanding. Now, as a technical manager for a large corporation, I don?t rely solely on degrees, but also don?t tolerate poor communication skills in individuals making $50K or more a year. Why? Poor or non-existent communications are the root-cause of a large chunk of the problems we encounter. For example, if a technical person doesn?t clearly explain a process to another who is expected to perform that process, risk of problems increase. In a number of large corporations I have worked with during the past 20 years, documentation was sub-standard or non-existent for architectures, processes, and other critical functions. A ?whoopsie? 20 years ago made for a bad afternoon. Today, it could land you on the cover of Newsweek magazine. With federal regulations and a culture that loves to sue corporations for mistakes, they are no longer willing to take that risk.

pcbradshaw
pcbradshaw

1. Going 10's of thousands in debt for a piece of paper that shows my support for a college's athletic department. 2. Most if not all non-executive level jobs in IT will go the way of India and China. Heck even Mexico is jumping onto the IT bandwagon. 3. Get my certs is better. Rather than paying for someone's football/basketball scholarship, get your MCSE, A+, CNE and other fantasic certifications. Just as if not more in impressive than a degree in underwater computer basket weaving.

duckboxxer
duckboxxer

Just wondering if this is technology, location or industry specific? Are you still looking for a COBOL/ Foxpro position? Or do you mainly look at admin jobs?

CG IT
CG IT

HR people always want degreed applicants. The actual department guys always want someone who can actually do some work with as little a learning curve as possible. I've seen degreed people fail miserably because of a lack of experience in working with the different O/Ss or even understanding basic networking. Without experience their a danager to the network. again ageless debate degree or not to degree. I'd take hands on without a degree anyday. It's lower pay scale than degree simply because that's how HR works but I'd get someone who knew what they were doing and won't screw up the network causing lots of problems. The degreed FNG typically "believes" they know therefore tries to do something without asking hense doing something that costing lots of $$ to fix [actual expereience. He got moved out of IT].

dspeacock
dspeacock

Degrees are nice to have, they get you in doors that experience alone doesn't. Unfortunately, they are not a measure of competence. In my class at college, there was a person who had a bachelor's degree already, who was placed in an English as a Second Language class because they couldn't even write a coherent sentence. (this person's mother tongue was english) Just another view of degrees.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

Degree = committment. I don't get it. I raised a family, taught myself, held down a full time job on shifts, took a massive pay cut to get my start in IT. Not an indicator of commitment at all that! I've worked with a lot of guys with degrees, the path I took to get to the same level career wise, most would never have gone more than three steps. My salary went up 600%, it's still at 300% more than I was getting when I left my first employer. Seeing as I haven't got a degree, must have been blind luck eh? You need to get out more, the world's mucher bigger than a campus.

duckboxxer
duckboxxer

"..don?t tolerate poor communication skills..", where you get them doesn't really matter all that much - at least for the moment. A piece of paper or experience may get you in the door. From there it's up to you how well your interview goes. And here is where those soft skills come in handy. For some, this comes innately. College COULD you give you an edge here. It forces people to communicate (especially for those of us that left home, running); these skills can be from a team project, presentation or even rush week. Experience can teach people these skills. But I have seen where this is not enough. This guy is a gov contractor; for him to move up a rung (pay grade; classification) he has to go get some sort of degree or certification. Here it doesn't matter which, nor does experience.

Inkling
Inkling

For most schools that place that much emphasis on athletics, those programs pay for themselves and then some. What money for sports programs don't come from sports revenue is usually offset by contributions. I seriously doubt that any successful college/university spends tuition revenue on sports programs. That aside, if I were a soon-to-be high school grad, knowing what I know now, I would be looking at colleges in the UK as they are much cheaper and (most times) just as respectable as the major colleges in the U.S. Not to mention the fun it would be as an 18-year-old living in a different country.

jslarochelle
jslarochelle

...is the country you live in. I had been programming on and off for years when I decided to get a DEC in computeer programming(this is a technical school degree). The reason I got the DEC was because in those days in Quebec it was difficult to get a full time job without some kind of school training (and the paper that comes with it at the end). This was also the period in my life when I decided that playing backup guitar in bars until 3 in the morning with a drunk singer behind the piano was not the way I wanted to earn a living. So I made the effort and got the paper. This was a very good move because now I have a good job and I can buy better guitars and play what I want. I actually did not learn that much about programming (the actual coding aspect of it) while doing my DEC. However, I did learn a lot about the analysis and design process as well as database modeling. This was eventually useful to me when I got involved with larger projects and database. The amazing thing though is that the people who would not hire me without diploma and some experience now behave as software development expert even though they don't have diploma in software engineering(many of them are physicist and chemist with Phd). I would have no problems with their lack of academic software development background if they had made the effort to learn about software development. However, for many of them (in key hierarchic position) it is simply not the case. In fact it turns out that they assume anyone with a university diploma (preferably in physics or chemistry...) can be a software development expert. All of this through the intervention of the holy spirit without reading anything more than a book about the language they have to program in on the next projet. So in the end a Phd in physics could have done the trick for me (get the job). The DEC however was a much better deal (3 years and a few hundred $ in school fee). My best asset however for the future of my career is my ability to keep learning and stay up to date because software development is moving at a fast pace. JS

wayoutinva
wayoutinva

What started me on my journey to a degree in the first place was due to the fact that I was not considered for promotion into a Management position at the company I was working at becauce i did not have that "little" piece of paper..and that is what I was told when i asked the reason why..Yes I am in debt because of it..and yes I also have a couple of certs to go along with it..and plan to get more..but when the job requirements require a B.S. in I.S. then at least they will look at my experience instead of simply having the resume wind up in the trash because my quals didnt meet the min. requirements. I am not some 20 something either I have been in the workforce for over 20 years (IT field for roughly 8) and when I started my degree(s) IT positions around here required either an Associates or enough experience to equal one..when I finished last year the min. had become a Bachelors...since I got mine from a tech school it was heavy on the pratical applications of IT, not simply reading a book and taking a test...we set up networks in class and used them...so is it worth it..Yes in the long run debt and all.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

Exactly the one I have. We don't have sports scholarships so much in the UK, we have watered down degrees like general studies... From the guys I know who went to university, it mainly consisted of avoiding lectures, sorting out a sex partner, and trying to survive on baked beans because all the money had gone on beer and drugs. Course that could be the people I hang around with. :D

bg6638
bg6638

I know the odds of finding a COBOL and/or Foxpro related position are virtually non-existant. Most as400 shops use RPG instead of COBOL, and most of them are migrating to Windows platforms (in the area that I am in the as400 users group disbanded). Thus, I have been looking primarily towards Systems Admin/IT Mgr/JOAT work at smaller firms. Problem is, virtually all employers are requiring a bachelor's degree! Or I am told: We could use a person like you, but we have had budget cutbacks, please call back in six months. When the call is returned, I usually am told: We've decided to outsource our IT needs to a local/regional firm.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

you are doing. Everybody with experience has survived that mistake. No need for a backup, it will be fine. oops.

mike
mike

I want to first extract two quotes from my original statement: ?A degree demonstrates commitment and, to an extent, an individual?s ability to learn and communicate their understanding.? and ?I don?t rely solely on degrees? I guess I am missing where I may have implied that a degree equaled competence. Irregardless of the experience and certifications, degrees, etc., communication skills are more important than anything else.

jmgarvin
jmgarvin

I'm not sure how these people get through school. I think a degree is for some people (those who want to learn a specific subject or want to get a little deeper into both the theory and application), but.... Well, the running joke is: BS stands for bullshite MS stands for more shite PhD stands for piled higher and deeper... Ya, that's right...I'm piling it higher and deeper ;-)

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

an anecdote about a total screw it up in business IT, that costs a company a whole bunch of money. It's not generally down to one of those "academically ungifted timeservers" at the bottom of the food chain is it? Ok we might, because of our lack of education use the CD tray as a cup holder! But we aren't the sort of dumb ass who makes enterprise crm software from access with an excel reporting engine, because it worked at school for question 2a.

mike
mike

That?s some funny stuff. Did I mention I don't have a degree? You can't say that somebody who has gone through 2 or more years beyond high school to achieve additional education and certification from an accredited institution doesn't have commitment. I didn't state that a degree was the only proof of commitment, but it definitely is one form. On the other hand, thanks for proving one of my points. Communication is a two way street; instead of clarifying or working from fact, an attack is formed from assumptions. How much time is wasted at work dealing with this exact thing? To quote my original statement: ?I don?t rely solely on degrees, but also don?t tolerate poor communication skills in individuals making $50K or more a year. Why? Poor or non-existent communications are the root-cause of a large chunk of the problems we encounter. ?

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

engineers tend to be like that too. There are some corespondances but not enough to turn them into a decent programmer when they already think they are. I once was one the recieving end of a mechanical engineer who mapped his 'fortran' skills to VB6. It was awful.

Locrian_Lyric
Locrian_Lyric

Yet, he is somehow more qualified than I when it comes to job Reqs....

jmgarvin
jmgarvin

The school I attended didn't (and still doesn't) have a sports team, nor did they focus on anything BUT science. It was also quite nice because of the small class sized (there are under 2000 students) and hands on professors. The school is highly recognized in the southwest, but since it isn't "name brand" it can't possibly be a good school. We have a ton of research facilities as well as some cool partnerships that we can take advantage of. A little side note. My school invented cling wrap and make a VERY sucessful RTLinux distro (FSM Labs with Dr. Yodaikian).

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

they probably would think your BS is would be irrelevant anyway. After all computers were clockwork back then :D When I get asked what's your first experience with computers, they have to check history books to see if they were really invented that long ago. These guys are pen pushing form fillers and your cv doesn't fit, they don't have the knowledge to interpret it, so they go easy route and just bin you. Don't lie obviously, but see if you can reword the cv to fit into their expectations. Look at what they are advertising for, if you think you can do it, you are much more likely to be right than them. Seeing as what sort of degree you got is irrelevant with your experience, leave it off the cv altogther. They'll either still bin you, ring you up and give you a chance to sell yourself or decide whether to put you forward based on important stuff and the assumption that you have one. The only reason for asking for a BS is to cut down the number of cvs they gave to look at, what they really want are candidates who stand a chance at getting the job, that's when they get paid. What would concern me is if you go for getting a BS, you are saying your previous experience is irrelevant, it would be like switching careers. If you do, do it, make sure you put why you did it on the cv. "Because HR are muppets" would need rewording though. :D PS In the UK a lot of IBM shops have started running 'nix. If that starts taking off in the US and you get some under your belt you might get in on some conversion jobs.

tonoohay
tonoohay

Just dropping my nickel in here. 20 years IT Telecom 14 years MainFrame 'big box' field service 15 years blended project management from a designer vision(see ugly) to facilities buildout and flying by the seat of your pants No Degree, some Certs, Bundles of tech classes Reality experience. The Synergy worm has - is - and will forever be turning. But, right now the most missed item is the eight hundred pound HR/outsourcing cost cutting monster that filters all bodies on both sides of the Fence. mike@Millsboro, DE needs new blood or a short project influx to fill out reqs. , who you gonna call, "temp services" 9 out-a-ten times. People are expenses not business model friendly. (mike if you do your own process, I applaude you and wish you luck when the Sunami of good resumes hit your door) I can't get a full time position due to age and education, but loads of poor planning is making available fixit projects funded by rushed workorders with dubious titles all having C.Y.A. expedite attached! I have MBA's from major U's with CCNAs/CCNPs ....etc...etc... waiting for me to show up, and then playing hide the truth during our initial contact. I don't blame, scorn, or "loss people face", I fix! I teach, I learn! Due to a over abundance of a well trained academics and certified workers sometimes finding the Pearls means you have to get a bit soiled digging in the mud. And that is due to that 800 Lbs HR Monster, that is not the best solution but it is the economic one. Someone asked me at a Users Group meeting what I did(for work), "I fix things, that other people break!" I'd like to go back to a steady position but my experience won't let me?

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

Always had a very clear vision, sights firmly set on his goal. But he kept buying his tech from ACME corp. Sort of like a gifted manager who insists on using windows no matter what. ]:)

LocoLobo
LocoLobo

I couldn't help thinking that he always learned from his mistakes. Each new try was something different. But I often thought he should have retried some of them, just change his parameters. Sorry about that! Please ignore me and go back to the discussion.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

unacceptable. Best for everybody if losses are cut at that point.

CG IT
CG IT

Just recanted the last straw. I'm not a "One your Done" type. We've all made more than one opps damnit or really stupid but critical mistakes. When the same mistakes are repeated more than a couple of times, it's time for damage control and that's move em to where they can't do damage.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

bugger get beheaded after purging the live database instead of the dev one. During a period where they were doing some moving around and a back up hadn't been taken for three weeks. :0 I still make the odd mistake or two, but I don't make humping great big ones any more. Unless there are other factors I'd have given the guy a second chance personally, after all, we all got one. Course if he can't prove he learnt his lesson...

CG IT
CG IT

it's worse when they try to reconfigure a managed switch without reading the documentation or asking. That's what the FNG did which cost him his position in my department. So when we need a body, our req to HR has to say degreed and/OR equivalent experience but if everyone who applies has very little experience, I'll go with the guy who's been in the trenches.

Locrian_Lyric
Locrian_Lyric

There is no such word as "Irregardless" Sorry, I know that absolutely is our resident grammar cop, but that one is a pet peeve of mine. -One of the unlettered masses.

p.meijs
p.meijs

I was interested in the discussion, even if it was a number of days ago; But i was so confused by your reply that i could not resist to post a reply. Mike was not depending solely on degrees (although he considered them a good sign), but also gave value to other skills, ie. experience. It that he was concentrating more on communication skills then technical skills. I tend to agree that they are important, because 90% of project failures come from miscommunication, far less from technical problems (mostly some solution can be found for those). Of course some minimum technical skill level must be present, to prevent major disasters. Concerning your 'real point' (how to asses applicants), i agree in principle with you. People with degrees can be miserable, and without degrees excellent. Therefore one should not dismiss people too easily, but study the profile a bit more extensive. But it stays difficult. We (personally involved) interviewed a guy with a recent five-year gap in the applicable profession, but with enough hints why he should return to it. The interview went well, and may give us a valuable collegue. On the other hand, he might have slipped through if we had received even more applicable profiles. You cannot interview everybody, so one has to make some judgment calls.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

this discussion and well after it finsished But I got the impression from Mike he was saying degree plus experience. I contend that experience can substitute for a degree. Evidence for that is me (and many others). As for a degree showing committment and the ability to learn, so does working your way up from a clerk. Course I could be a time server promoted out of the way of the sharp end through simple seniority as well, and the academically qualified person could have been really good at sport or in bed, or had a rich daddy. How are you meant to tell just from the existence of a bit of paper, be it, a degree, a cert, or a cv? The real point is if you want to make your recruitment decisions based on lazy generalisations or even on what your own personal experience meant to you, you are going to get it wrong on more than many occasions. In fact if that's the method chosen, you might as well cut out the middle man and work directly for HR

p.meijs
p.meijs

You are giving me the impression (by "what else in your first post is there to leave me with any other impression?") that you find at least that mike does not make himself clear, and maybe even that he is not consistent (but I cannot find what). Your conclusion "says to me degree + other skills" gives me the impression that mike concludes that both are mandatory, but he is not saying that ("not solely"). On the other hand, if you do not conclude that both is mandatory, that is excatly what mike says, so why don't you agree instead of giving such a mystifying comment ? I think your main point is: "I think that 'technical competence' is also important besides "degree + other skills". But why don't you just say that (and preferably give some argument for it).

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

?A degree demonstrates commitment and, to an extent, an individual?s ability to learn and communicate their understanding.? and ?I don?t rely solely on degrees? says to me degree + other skills. Given what the thread is about, what else in your first post is there to leave me with any other impression? Not for technical competence, that didn't feature anywhere in your post. ]:) You only mentioned commitment, learning and communication as I read it.

Locrian_Lyric
Locrian_Lyric

Here's another one... trying to convince a new wunderkind that while it would be nice to have perfection in a week, we need something that works, warts and all TODAY!

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

The context is his communication and my background. The context of his communication, a first on this topic is wholly encapsulated in the initial missive. Degree demonstrates commitment. That's bollocks Any conclusions based of this fallacy are equally bollocks. As for the you guys, well I might have cruelly explicity pigeon holed him as an academic snob, but the statement he made is a very good indicator of at the very least an unconscious prediliction in that regard.

GoodOh
GoodOh

"Deep subject this communication stuff in it?" No. Not really. Read the question (post) carefully and slowly and consider the context. Don't insert your own assumptions. The sort of advice any educator would give someone answering any exam or assignment question. Assuming Mike was an academic (and basing your response on that assumption) when it was very clear he wasn't is not a deep mistake, it's a basic and shallow one.

Locrian_Lyric
Locrian_Lyric

All the talk of communications skills being paramount seems to be nothing more than merely talk. While I shall not be quite so vehement in my prosecution of my point as Tony has been, I do agree with many of his underlying points. There is an academic snobbery of sorts in the workplace. I have faced it myself. Companies that favor a newly-minted programmer over someone with a decade or more of experience are short-sighted at best. I must admit that I would not want to work for any company that would make such decisions because it shows a slavish devotion to a paradigm of questionable usefulness.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

Of course my answer was in reply to what I thought he was saying. Unless I responded to the wrong post, waht other possibility would there be ? Why was, what I thought he was saying and in response I might add to what he thought I thought of what he thought I thought of what he thought, wrong? Deep subject this communication stuff in it?

GoodOh
GoodOh

Your question - "That's the impression I got, so did you fail to transmit, or did I fail to receive?" My answer - "You failed to fully reflect on what you received before you banged off a reply. Your response was to what you THOUGHT Mike was saying and not what he did say. Pretty much proved Mike's point about communication." My comment. We understand your point Tony. You don't have a degree and don't intend to get one. That's fine. I hope it keeps working for you for the 20+ years you will be working into the future or that your next career will be as wonderful a success as the IT one has been. Much to their loss many companies will instantly bin any resume, application or tender from anyone without the qualification they think they want. Because of that they'll never interview people like you to find out what they are missing. Sad, maybe stupid, but true. Lots of other people are saying they are happy to have gone back to school and got their degree. They aren't wrong. Even if it added not a cent to their income nor a rung 'up the ladder' they are happy to have done it (or be doing it). That's their call. You would be unhappy to do it so you shouldn't. Everytime someone with superior skills and no degree gets their resume binned unread (and I have been in rooms watching it happen) the original posting is proved right in that case. I think there is no doubt that this simplistic decision making is on the increase. Therefore the original point will become more true for more people as time goes on. But that doesn't exclude the exceptions that we could all list. I'm dropping this in here 'cause the thread got so boring I couldn't continue with it. 'Me thinks he doth protest too much.'

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

I will respond to to personal attacks, always. I point out to you by way of rebuttal, that there has been a failure to communicate, you attack me, by calling me immature. Then you stick your fingers in your ears, skip around your desk singing la la lallala. So who's actually immature? Refusing to argue means you don't have anything worth saying.

mike
mike

Sorry, but I will not continue to respond to immature responses or personal attacks. The nature and spirit of this board is the sharing of information and not to see who can out-shout who. How you argue greatly overshadows what you are trying to say.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

I've met many who took that route, they tossed it off all the way, scraped through, got the scroll with the wee red ribbon. The reward they got for this success, taught them that's all they had to do to keep being successful. After all it worked once, why not again? As for 'you guys', you were coming across as an academic snob. That's the impression I got, so did you fail to transmit, or did I fail to receive? Can only one of us be responsible for that communications failure? Did you assume you'd be understood, or did I assume I had understood. Criticise people for not being able to communicate, as soon as you do that, you are saying it's not a two way street. It's the equivalent of skipping around the office with your fingers in your ears, singing la la lallala. The only communications failure is a refusal to do so. Content is another ball game.

jslarochelle
jslarochelle

Of course not all of them are like that. Some will take the time to learn the skills. However, I definitly think there is a pattern (antipattern?) here. JS

Inkling
Inkling

Sounds like fun that!! Where do I sign up? And are these "hands-on" professors (a) female and (b) attractive?!

Locrian_Lyric
Locrian_Lyric

that is known for producing better programmers than most colleges. The washout rate was 80% In order to PASS, you needed to maintain a test and project average in excess of 85%.... but that linebacker is still more qualified than me.

Locrian_Lyric
Locrian_Lyric

that is known for producing better programmers than most colleges. The washout rate was 80% In order to PASS, you needed to maintain a test and project average in excess of 85%.... but that linebacker is still more qualified than me.

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

They seem to be more concerned with how many passes they get than what they are passing. All the way through education as well. After all there's no point in spending all that money on education and have people fail is there?

jmgarvin
jmgarvin

It's sad how name brand schools aren't putting out quality anymore. Sure, you still have quality at some schools (MIT comes to mind), but for the most part small state schools or that no name private school does a better job for a LOT less money. I know I'm generalizing, but honestly, when I can run circles around a name brand school CS PhD candidate or two at most conferences, there's a problem....

Tony Hopkinson
Tony Hopkinson

A line backer for Yale who just didn't make pro is better than you. Go figure. Still not many people want to argue with a guy that strong and fit. Have the job he squeaks. :D