Tech & Work

Women are getting beaten up. Again.

An ominous new trend is appearing with fewer women being employed outside the home and average hourly pay going down. John M McKee discusses why this is going to cause a severe impact on both genders.

During the period of my career when I was a senior executive, I was responsible for hiring, promoting, firing, and laying-off literally thousands of people.

And because I'm a people person, when it came to making those decisions affecting others' careers and personal lives, I often felt strong emotions. I alternated between feeling satisfied, sick to my stomach, invigorated, excited, or just plain unhappy because of the impact of those decisions. But I always remembered that I was being paid to make things better. Keeping that in mind helped during the tough times.

Early in my career, one of the first things I realized was that there was a genuine compensation disparity between the genders. In my first job, my boss was female and I heard her hassles firsthand. Additionally, I heard what other male execs said about her behind her back. Later, when I was working in the fashion industry, I frequently traveled overseas with many strong women who weren't shy about sharing their opinions with me - often the only male on the trip. From my male colleagues I knew what the market was paying for certain jobs and responsibilities and I could see that these talented women were getting "beaten up" financially.

In later years, as a company leader, I had the responsibility for overseeing compensation raises, salaries and bonuses for many executives and managers. In their annual reviews I noticed that - more often than the males - the women were likely to accept what they were given without question. On the other hand, the men often asked questions, challenged the size of what they got, or got angry about what they saw as being unfair.

Note to women readers: Men frequently discuss compensation, it's almost like understanding the playing field for them. Most women don't. But you should.

I believe these are two reasons why men continue to earn more than women for doing equal work in the same organization. But as we all know, there has been progress over the last decade, reaching a point that the disparity between women and men had lessened significantly. No, it hasn't been erased, but at the end of 2006 it was lessened from 10 years earlier.

But now there's news that things are going south again:

According to the New York Times in an article from August 16, for the first time since the women's movement came to life, the percentage of women at work has fallen year over year. Over the last eight years, the percentage of women working outside the home has fallen to where it was back in 1994. Meanwhile, the median hourly pay of women aged 25 to 48 has fallen from $15.04 in 2004 to $14.84 last year according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

This is not just a "women-only" issue. It impacts families across America.

Because many households depend on the income of both partners to make ends meet, any tightening has a genuine impact on many factors and industries including retail sales, home affordability, manufacturing and most service industries. Already we are seeing service and retail sectors, which are normally driven by women,  experiencing difficulty and slow-down. This creates a domino affect throughout the entire economy thereby slowing down any chance of a return to "normal" growth and levels of employment.

I am frequently told by clients working in older companies or industries that they simply can't afford to make the needed changes and adjustments required to eliminate the disparity between workers in their organizations. "It's too much, too fast," I'm told as they attempt to justify the status quo. (And by the way - I hear this from both men and women decision makers.) I disagree. Companies and industries can be competitive and respect equality as many newer industries and organizations have shown.

Unless everyone gets onto this fact, however, we'll continue going in the wrong direction. Women will continue getting beaten up. And everyone will fall down as a result.

john

Leadership Coach

About

John M. McKee is the founder and CEO of BusinessSuccessCoach.net, an international consulting and coaching practice with subscribers in 43 countries. One of the founding senior executives of DIRECTV, his hands-on experience includes leading billion d...

266 comments
jdclyde
jdclyde

this will just get eyes rolling by people that THINK instead of FEEL. Many examples of why pay scales are different for VALID reasons have been posted here, and it is dishonest to not take real world factors into consideration when the numbers are pulled. When I had my "Stats" class about two years ago, the instructor said that while we would not walk out of his class "statisticians", we would see and recognize how people intentionally use stats to distort the facts to push their agenda. This is just one more example of distorted facts.

svilla8874
svilla8874

I am a woman who works full time in IT. I can match my skills against anyone else in my field. I am willing to do what it takes to get the job done. I expect to be paid the same as anyone doing the same job with the same skill set. I am also the sole support of my family and have been since I was married (I have a husband who stays home and takes care of the kids and household). Most people I work with don't know that. Other than my gender, I'm the same as the 'man' discussed in most of these threads. My question is: what has that got to do with anything? I'm still the same worker, the same skill set, the same expectations as my counterparts. My gender means nothing in this context. However, based on all this discussion, it appears people are making a whole lot of assumptions about an employee based on their gender - even without any information about who they really are. Sounds like the definition of gender discrimination to me.

Oz_Media
Oz_Media

While I can understand why I get paid more than most women ( :D ), I do think that the equality needs to be focused on so that equally talented women get paid as well as men in the same role. Unfortunately what will probably happen is men's pay scales will be reduced to match that of female salaries.

bgrimsley
bgrimsley

Here we go again with this insanity. Think women get paid less for "equal work"? If this idiotic notion were even half true, it would be RIDICULOUSLY EASY TO MAKE A FORTUNE! All you'd had to do is start a company, hire nothing but women, pay them less than men, and make a huge profit! Funny thing is, in a world of greedy people, NO ONE IS DOING THIS! GOOD GRIEF THIS IS STUPID!!!!! Women get paid less money for LESS work. Doing almost every dangerous job, putting in more overtime, not changing jobs so often, not running home to take care of the kids so quickly, etc., all mean extra money to a company, and the men get more money as fair compensation. Anyway, I'll feel real sorry for women when they step up the plate and start paying for dates (90 percent of all restaurant bills for a male / female meal are paid by the man), "woman and children first" changes to just "children first", etc. Until then we will continue to live in a world with endless special treatment for women, and endless whining from them about non-existent discrimination.

thepraxislady
thepraxislady

Were we in class together? 'cause that is the same message received in a Research course taken (aka, stats).

Locrian_Lyric
Locrian_Lyric

I can use the same statistics to make it look like men are getting discriminated against. If I manipulate the statistics to divide the gross pay by hours worked in salaried positions, men will appear to earn less per hour because men tend to work more uncompensated overtime. Men also tend to work in fields where there is a high risk of mortality in numbers far greater than women: Examples: Fishing, Electrical, construction, Police, Fire, Military. Statistics are meaningless unless all mitigating factors are eliminated and you are making valid comparisons.

jdclyde
jdclyde

You have the floor, inform us. Are YOU paid less because of your gender then others in your organization doing the same work? If so, how do you know? Do YOU get held to a different standard than anyone else in the organization? Has the over all pay scale changed from the time you hired in, to now? Are raises as big or often? IS there, or is there NOT discrimination in your current job, based upon your gender? Thanks,

Tink!
Tink!

you can prove that the individuals in question are: - equal in all aspects of the job - offer the exact same amount of time and effort to the company - and one is being paid more than the other then there is a true case of discrimination. The problem is that this is very rarely the case. Most reported cases do not compare apples to apples and most due to the reasons being discussed above. There is also the problem of groups fighting against discrimination. When in essence it's something that needs to be addressed individually as each case is different. When a large group speaks out it can help an individual gain the support and confidence to push their case, but it does not necessarily help their case as the group makes too many generalizations. That's my opinion anyway. :)

cupcake
cupcake

What is really not being said is that discrimination of any kind is unfair and that includes gender discrimination. I would be the first to stand up and fight if the discrimination was aimed at anyone else... be it the Single Dad, someone older in the workplace, the sensitive guy (all examples being discussed in this thread). All anyone is asking is that each person be judged on their performance, experience and education and be paid accordingly.

jdclyde
jdclyde

Many places have a NEW pay scale for people just getting hired in. Dow Chemical and GM are just two such big name companies. You can get hired in, and make less than half of what the person standing next to you, doing the same work, is getting, regardless of gender. As these good paying jobs were filled before many women entered the field, that will distort the figures on what people make.

No User
No User

I know that I will have stones thrown at me for this but so what it's way past time for this to be said. Before you do let it be known that this is my learned experienced and not my opinion. First off I will note men making hay by siding with the preposterous nonsense that women are short changed and treated as lesser in general. The only unfairness that I have experienced is the treatment that men get in this gender warfare. Having worked in a female numerically dominated environment, many office environments are that way. You would not believe the things they pull. Office mangers that pick and choose what they will manage at their office which results in every office being dysfunctional. I think the reason the title is office manager is for the intended purpose of managing the entire office. Obviously they disagree. They require more and more women to do the same work and I am certain if men were to do the same work it would be done with fewer people. That is a very sticky point that is typically over looked. Then you look at their NEVER ENDING NEEDS!!!! It is absolutely impossible to be able to do TO MUCH for them. Of course you can't complete this conversation with out mentioning all the crying about how wonderful the world would be if women were in charge. Ya right!!!! Experiencing all female offices and nearly a total female company you learn first hand what the word CATTY means. They can't play fair even in an all female environment. They bring sexism and discrimination to all new levels. Men that work in those environments typically get flagrantly violated in just about every law on the books and harassed until they leave. If you are a beautiful woman you can forget working in a female dominated environment they think that they will have to do your job for you while you polish your nails and talk to the boys all day. By the way according to most women being beautiful is synonymous with being stupid, unfaithful and self absorbed. You just would not believe the turn over and the musical chairs they play. Every time one of them leaves which is nearly perpetual staff starts shuffling from office to office playing musical chairs. It usually takes about 2 weeks before things settle down and they know which office to hire the replacement for. You know how women like to change their environment. ;) In fact when you have an environment that is gender lopsided you can just about stand every stereo type of how kind and caring women are on there head. Sadly women experience far more of the negatives from other women then they do from men :(. I have been interviewed for jobs in nearly all women environments and they always ask if you can work with women. Hmmmmm If we are in a gender neutral workplace and all equal why would they ask that? I certainly have had many good experiences with women and all of the worlds problems can?t be blamed on them but enough is quite well enough with the poor abused little girl nonsense. For what ever price a women must pay the toll is much cheaper then that of men.

DelphiniumEve
DelphiniumEve

Most of us really do want to work and receive pay communsurate with our position. If we are being discriminated against - AS I HAVE BEEN - we have to have an amazing case. If you sue and win, the payment will be withheld for as long as the firm can delay it. During this time, you will have no job as no one will want to hire you once they run a background check. You are an immediate liability. I have a brain, a job, and a good reputation as a valued employee. Even with the shabby treatment, I am better off bucking up and taking it or I will be destitute. It is not much of a choice. KISS MY A** about doing less work. I have worked rotating shifts in a chemical plant. I have worked 68 straight 12-hour graveyards because there was no relief due to jury duty and a person being reassigned. I had bloody strep throat the last 6 days, but I showed up and did my job like a soldier. I have put up with being groped which I am sure you would *never* had to deal with...Hitting an employee, even if groping you, was grounds for firing. I was one of 6 women out of 400 at this plant - you have NO IDEA what hard really is! I do pay for my dates. I am beholden to no one. You do not get a kiss or anything else for picking up a meal...not going to get myself in that situation. When I got divorced, the jerk acted like most women and ran up the charge cards. I had to take care of that since it would have ruined my credit. Being in a community property state, I had much more to lose than he did. BGrimsley - You need a serious reality check.

cupcake
cupcake

What an amazingly narrow-minded argument you are attempting to make! If there are two people - one man and one woman - being firefighters, they should be paid the same. If the two people are in IT, with the same knowledge, training, experience, then they should make the same money. What a truly neanderthal thing to infer that women don't give 110% to their jobs/careers and that their families don't suffer because of it. I am not new to this, I have been around a while and let me tell you, the world does not have endless special treatment for women except when it comes to less acknowledgment for their contributions and being singled out for attacks. Much like an earlier post, I too, was in the position where there were two large conversion projects from mainframe to LAN and although the two platforms were different, the projects were essentially the same. I found out accidently that he was making more money than I was (and we had similar backgrounds, experience and education) but when I approached management, they too gave me to the BS story that he was married and had a family to take care of. WTF? I was married (no kids) and a house, etc., and what difference does it make anyway? Shouldn't I be paid for what I contribute to the job? Anyway, my team was behind me 100% and rallied to my aid. It only took a month or so for me to get my increase, although I was never able to determine if his salary also increased at the same time. I, do, agree though, that women do not discuss their salaries with other women, and absolutely do not discuss it with other men. How does one go about doing this? I have been working in IT for some time now and believe that I am earning what I am worth - although I recently relocated and am not sure about my current economical location.

maecuff
maecuff

Either you didn't get held enough as a child, or you got held too much. Idiotic notion? Are you kidding me? I took over as IT director after my boss (male) was fired. He had the job for 2 years, I had it for 5. I ran circles around him and when I left, I STILL didn't make as much as he had been making when he was fired. Special treatment? What special treatment? Having to prove our worth many times over just because we have breasts? You aren't female, how could you POSSIBLY know what it's like to be a female in the workplace? I work for a construction company. You think that isn't male oriented? Do you honestly believe that women get the same opportunities as men in this business? What a laugh. Many years ago, I started a job on the same day as a fellow male programmer. Throughout the day, we were introduced to various department heads. Without a SINGLE exception, the male programmer had his hand shook, asked about his previous position, welcomed very warmly to the company, where I was virtually ignored. Within weeks, these same people learned that if they wanted something done and they wanted it done fast, they had to come to me. It's a fact of life. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that it exists. And to hear someone go on about 'endless whining' and 'special treatment' is extremely frustrating.

cupcake
cupcake

Just by saying "men will appear to earn less per hour because men tend to work more uncompensated overtime" you are prone to perpetuating the stereotype that its okay to pay men more. Who says men work more hours? Geez, I have been in IT for nearly 25 years and I can guarantee you that I have seen just as many men leave early (or come in late, or take long lunches or hang around the boss' cube) as women. I have rarely seen an 8 hour day or less... but then, that's why I am in the upper echelon. And there's a big difference between being at the office for more than 8 hours and working more than 8 hours. Reminds me, though, of a saying I heard in the Army... a woman has to work twice as hard as a man to be considered half as good. Wanna talk about a good ol' boy network?

svilla8874
svilla8874

In my current job, I'm a single incumbent so there isn't anyone to compare me to. Local market research helped determine my salary here and I believe I am fairly compensated. One reason I chose this company is because of the diversity in the office, both in age and in gender. However, in the past I found out I was paid 10K less on average than the other System Admins in that shop. This was a place where there were a lot of problems and the management actually believed that women should be home minding the kids and the men should hold the jobs in the families (don't ask me how I got hired there, it's a mystery to me). This attitude was pervasive there, so rather than stay, I elected to move on. Being a working woman in that environment was poisonous. That's a pretty extreme case, but it really hit home to me. At one of my first jobs in the 70s I actually had a manager tell me that even though my results were better than others in my department, I didn't qualify for a higher raise because I wasn't married didn't have a family to support. So, I've seen this first hand and while the experience with the company that didn't really support working women was pretty bizarre, I learned a lot about making sure I'm fairly compensated.

Shellbot
Shellbot

You've obviously had some bad expereinces... Not everyone has though. Maybe America has more of this going on? I don't know..in Canada I wasn't aware of it happening much. In Ireland I don't see it happening much. Oh, yes..I'm sure it does occur in some places here. In Ireland I see it from the other side. Lets look at this: I know a woman who has 3 kids. When she had her first one she was out for a couple months before the birth due to illness. Then she took about 9 months maternity leave (getting paid). Then she went back 3 days a week for several months. Then she got pregnant again..off for months on maternity leave..back to work @ 3 days a week. Then back @ 4 days a week. Then got pregnat again. Child is sevreal months off and she's not due to go back to work untill February. Funny thing is, during all this time she had accrued the same pay rises as her collegues. She is deemed to have the same experience as them also. Can you explain to me how this is fair? I am not having children with my husband. I go to work every day, to gain experience and work hard to get my pay rises or whatever. If I was her collegue I'd be disgusted that despite her being out of the office for over 2 years in the space of 4.5 years, we would be making the same rate of pay and when it came to promotion time she would be my equal in experience. Its all well and good that women have babies to keep the human race from dying out..but why should they be allowed special treatment??? Maybe we should fight for equal pay for equal work??

JamesRL
JamesRL

But there have never been different pay scales for men and women in any company I've worked in, including the places I worked at during my 70s high school days. There were some inquities due to the pink collar ghettos where "traditional" women's jobs were valued less than "traditional" men's roles with similar requirements, but in Canada at least this was done away with through a pay equity process. I am frankly insulted that you think that we managers as a group discriminate against women. I'm am not suggesting that there has never been discrimination, or that such discrimination has been entirely eliminated. But you seem to imply that a vast male conspiracy is holding down women's pay scales, and nothing is further from the truth in my experience. James

Shellbot
Shellbot

A couple years ago here there was a skill shortage in IT. It was mostly men in the game..and they were recruited at large salaries..and got healthy pay rises every year.. The past few years, the demand is not so high...that Java developer might come in at 40K now, where as 4 years ago, they would have paid 60K for it. Hubby just got a new job..he had a heck of a time finding one that was paying as good as he was making because he had gotten a good start wage plus good yearly rises..the wages today just aren't paying ..so anyone be it male or female who gets hired for his job will be making about 1/2 of waht he was.

maecuff
maecuff

because you have experience as a woman?

thepraxislady
thepraxislady

The scary part is, most women 'try' very hard to emulate men in a predominantly male workplace to fit in, and maybe what most men experience is frustration from so many hybrid varieties? Could it be true in reverse? BTW: ?Chatty? is no longer owned by females, men are reported to be more so than women. Do not know how we [females] lost that mantel?

thepraxislady
thepraxislady

Maybe working women at all levels inadvertly benefit (support) those stay at home mom?s so many have brought to our attention on this topic thread? A view point never considered until now!

santeewelding
santeewelding

Object to your lower-case "n" We let the "-ical" slide on account of excitability.

TonytheTiger
TonytheTiger

that your new boss just had a dim view of IT directors because of your old boss' performance, and would have taken it out on whoever filled the slot?

jdclyde
jdclyde

I would think, like anything else, it depends on where you go. People are discriminated against for all sorts of reasons, and unfortunately, having "mommy parts" is one of them. It is hard now because of all the sexual harassment suits that make the front pages, making someone rich over it, has many men scared to be around women for fear of being the next target of the next get-rich-quick law suit.

jdclyde
jdclyde

the economy and wages at the times of hiring. There just isn't as much money flying around as there used to be, for anyone.

Locrian_Lyric
Locrian_Lyric

I would like to see research done with the following methodology. Pay rates normalized for: Total hours worked: Nature of the work: Titles: Time off taken: "Soft" benefits: Total compensation: THEN maybe we'll get some honest information. We all make judgments on what we want, and which form of compensation is more important to us. When I was with my Ex, she had great benefits, so we had me on hers, and I went for straight cash, no benefits. Now, I make less because I have a family, but better benefits. I need the benefits now because of the baby. It's give and take.

jdclyde
jdclyde

It is more than a great tv quote, it is how to handle honest discussions. Exactly right, generalizations both ways are wrong and only make things worse. Now, how do we go about getting accurate information, for a change? We have heard all the personal stories from both sides, and let me tell you, I don't lose a second of sleep knowing I make much more than my female co-worker, as explained in my first post.

jdclyde
jdclyde

effect everyone. I also comment about racism too, even though I am neither racist, nor non-white. I do tend to stay away from discussions about feminine hygiene, does that count?

thepraxislady
thepraxislady

It sure beats therapy! Although much in agreement where it was posted how poorly people treat each other these days. Sarcasm is highly embraced, especially if really good at it. As for so much whining, needsmore cheese.

thepraxislady
thepraxislady

One bite at a time... Which is how this thread topic came to be. We should see another spin off regarding ?Women in Politics? soon. BTW: A subject did not realized men enjoyed engaging. My bad.

Locrian_Lyric
Locrian_Lyric

I've been discriminated against. It happens. Some people think that disabilities are contagious, or they're made uncomfortable by them. Quite frankly, I don't care to work for people like that, so I consider it a wash.

Locrian_Lyric
Locrian_Lyric

I was in a similar situation back in 2005, SO I QUIT! I was not married, did not have kids, so I got the suckiest shifts, got passed over for a promotion because the woman with kids 'needed the money more'. Guess what I did? I QUITE. Sorry, I can NOT abide whining like this. I have 40% hearing loss, am autistic and diabetic. I've been caught up in purges due to politics and yes, due to my disabilities as well. Guess what? Life is like that, move on to greener pastures. Not every business is bad not every business is good. Whining changes nothing. Excellence changes everything

jdclyde
jdclyde

And I would bet that many of the other reasons are being grouped in as gender bias. I find it hard to believe that people still think women deserve less pay. Personality and physical traits are also big factors. I have read studies that show tall, attractive males with full heads of hair advance fastest. A short, fat, bald guy is discriminated for not looking attractive enough. (lucky for me I have such a sparkling personality, huh? :D ) And I have known people that don't advance because of their personality. Some guys are jerks, and some women are b1tches. If you can't work well with others, it will effect your work life. I don't see sexual bias, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Some here say they have seen it, but that doesn't mean it happened to them or that it is rampant today.

svilla8874
svilla8874

A review of the postings on this subject are a really good example of how judgments are made and how people are rationalizing them. You don't want to believe it happens, especially in this day and age. However, when you are subjected to it, it is shocking. And it changes you.

jdclyde
jdclyde

racism, liberalism, and many other "ism"'s that plague our world.

jdclyde
jdclyde

it is hard to be expected to do anything about it, huh? People judge each other all the time, and despite the pathetic politically correct BS going on, the way people really treat each other is getting worse, not better. Maybe it has something to do with peoples lowered standards of conduct?

Meesha
Meesha

"It is beyond my understanding to be able to emphasize with you on this." This is the crux of the issue!

jdclyde
jdclyde

start wearing a wedding band and put pictures of other peoples kids on your desk.... ;\ Sorry, I just get that way sometimes. It is beyond my understanding to be able to emphasize with you on this.

jdclyde
jdclyde

that YOU have ever been concerned with being "less polite"? :p

Locrian_Lyric
Locrian_Lyric

probably due to the fact that it is close to a less polite term.

jdclyde
jdclyde

why does baloney have such a bad name? The fine people at Armour-Eckrich work hard to bring you a quality product (primarily out of waste products) so you can have your sandwich. After all the hard work, you turn around and use their product is a derogatory manner. how did baloney get such a bad name? :0

jdclyde
jdclyde

where you sit on an assembly line, put nut on bolt, wait for next part to come down the line. Anything that requires effort, thought, or skills, equal is an illusion.

jdclyde
jdclyde

because it doesn't fit the "poor victim" image that people are trying to paint.

No User
No User

That explains a whole Lotta things... :0 I was wondering if Mae would take that you directed that at her I wasn't completely sure myself so I waited. Good things come to those who wait. :) Well from the 100% heterosexual team for the record I have never had a problem getting women to bed or a a a I mean to take a woman on a date!!! Ya that's it take a woman on a date. Believe it or not I have six children all grown 3 boys and 3 girls. None that I paid for...

jdclyde
jdclyde

"no user", not you Mae.

maecuff
maecuff

You're right. I've had the opportunity, but I haven't actaully dated a woman, so I don't know what it's like. You're lucky, though..you can speak from experience having all that experience on both sides of the fence. :)

jdclyde
jdclyde

you don't get to date WOMEN much, do you?

maecuff
maecuff

You could chill out a little. I live with all males (Husband, adult son and 10 year old son). I put up with all kinds of things that I wouldn't have to if they were all girls. However, I would also miss out. I love living with boys. Even with the sometimes annoying differences. And when I worked in a department mostly populated by women, I didn't have to put up with the macho bullsh*t that goes on here. On the other hand, I am enjoying working with men, even with the differences. And again, the men here are more complaining and whiny than I ever heard at my old place. I'm not attributing that to them because they are MALE. That's just how these particular humans behave.

No User
No User

but some how we find the strength to muddle our way through. ;) I am surrounded by women so even a three day old retarded rock with that much exposure would be able surmise what is like. I swim in estrogen 24/7 there are so many women around me all the time. I get entirely to much information about things I should not here about and don't want to know. I don't need to be a woman to know what it's like to be one I am perpetually being told what it is like. Out side of a magnum can you offer any help?

cupcake
cupcake

I could probably more than match your "several". Anyone who can work, should. Man or woman. Your generalizations are invalid though. I've never even so much as drawn unemployment although I've accepted my severance. I can guess that I probably work harder than these women you're referring to (and dumping into one large invalid assumption). Get a grip...

No User
No User

when you have to pay for them. ;)

No User
No User

unlike a woman I will have to pay for it. ;) I know several women on the dole. If you get laid off again let me know and I will put you in contact with them. It's absolutely true. I know three women who got cars they had to keep it under $4000.00 but hey it's free to them. Why not we are deficit spending so the more the merrier. If they are stupid enough to give it away (and they are) then women would be stupid not to take it.

jdclyde
jdclyde

that there are misunderstandings on both sides of the gender issue. Some it seems are more of medical issue of not taking their meds to deal with their condition, but it is still out there.....

maecuff
maecuff

you aren't female. so you couldn't possibly know what it's like to be one. I'm sure that you poor white males have a huge cross to bear. Must be tough having to deal with that higher income and power.

cupcake
cupcake

When I was laid off earlier this year, I sure wished I had known about this program to get free housing, a car purchased for me, free college and "so on". You need serious help...

No User
No User

I pay the toll. Women get far to many freebies. Just one very tiny example would do you and your lady friends go out on gentleman's night a the pub where men get free drinks? How about if you either quit or lose your job. Would a man get free housing and other assistance and the system buy him a car, put through college find job placement and so on like that which is done for women? If a man needs assistance for himself and his children he is told to get a job you lazy bum and you should have kept that thing in your pants if you weren't sure you could pay for it. With women it's 36 government programs to HELP THE POOR DEARS. How about college women get far more assistance and freebies them men and the list goes on and on. Do companies have quotas for hiring White men that they must meet? Why are there so many all or near all female work places and why is that OK but not for men? If there ever was an imbalance that was in the first half of the 20th century. The second half which I was born in has been dominated by hand outs for women and minorities and white men that paid the price for all of it.

thepraxislady
thepraxislady

"CATTY" is not just a women thing anymore. Whew! BTW: most men who do not take advantage of furthering their education have difficulty with text. Men are mostly visual and kinesthetic (hands-on) learners. Schools have focus on those who learn from text and consider the rest of us disabled. Hmmm.

jdclyde
jdclyde

if we have the option to not follow it, which we clearly do not. And it is rarely a good one, or we would have already done it! :p My ex used to try that to me and my boys, "I would suggest that you do xyz". She got really bent out of shape the day I said "Thanks for the suggestion" and kept doing what I was doing.... :0

maecuff
maecuff

Sure. They don't bitch. And women don't nag. We just make good suggestions repeatedly.

jdclyde
jdclyde

they gripe. There is a difference.... :p

maecuff
maecuff

I'm saying that individuals are catty or not catty. That individuals talk a lot (or too much). These things are not gender specific. I'm not overly talkative. My husband? He uses every word he knows in every conversation he has. That's not to say that I don't ever talk a lot. Of course I do. Everyone does from time to time. I stepped in nothing. And I can be seen at the local comedy club every Friday and Saturday night. Don't forget to tip your waitress.

maecuff
maecuff

Just a group of bitchy men. :)

No User
No User

That men talk more then women? WHAT A LAUGH!!!! Hahahahahahahaha!!!! You really stepped in it there.... Any two women talk more then any hundred men... Well wait a minute maybe not femme gay guys!!! Oh lord I just can't believe you would try to put sell that one..... You have latent comic skills that you should pursue.

jdclyde
jdclyde

My office USED to be really catty, until two certain women and one certain guy left, and now everyone else gets along just fine. People that suck are not limited by the gender. "because you have experience as a woman? "

maecuff
maecuff

I left an IT department that was predominately female. Now, I am in one where I am one of two females. The gossip, back biting and cattiness is out of control here. And it's not us two girls doing it.

No User
No User

Why are there more women then men in college if the work place is a predominantly male workplace? Do women pay for degrees just for fun? Most jobs that men do are not in an office. We build offices but most men don't work in them. You lost that one. The word is "CATTY" not "CHATTY" which the latter with out a doubt women do far more of then men. It's not even close to being near. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Catty

maecuff
maecuff

My boss thought I was the best thing since sliced bread. Really? The fact that I made less could have been for many different reasons. We certainly weren't MAKING money at that company. (But we weren't making money when my old boss was there, either). I do know that I was the first female director in the history of the 80 year old company. There is just something WRONG there. A woman who worked for me had worked there for over 40 years. She was the inventory queen. She knew it inside and out. There wasn't a person there that would dispute her value or her dedication. It took me 3 YEARS to get her salary to 40K. It was just pathetic.

thepraxislady
thepraxislady

Like statistics? Where numbers only mean what one wants to prove a point.

thepraxislady
thepraxislady

may be the tip of other work related disparities, like equal pay? If the playing field were leveled, equal pay for equal work, would the so called female excesses identified as whining or special treatment diminish? Then again, who (or what) would lose the most ground if it were in fact equal?

maecuff
maecuff

and completely ignoring someone are two different things. There's nothing scary about welcoming a person to your company. I'm not buying that excuse.

jdclyde
jdclyde

the "standoffishness" that you had mentioned receiving, not the pay scale.

maecuff
maecuff

a job where I was harrassed. It was horrible. And oddly enough, it was when I lived in your neck of the woods. I lived in Kansas City, MO (Blue Springs) for about a year and had an absolutely HORRIBLE job when I first moved there. I only lasted 3 months before moving on.

cupcake
cupcake

There are - IMHO - so few valid examples of sexual harassment that are lost because of all the noise. And even agree more that this doesn't have anything to do with inequality of pay. Way to go Maecuff...

maecuff
maecuff

for women who scream 'harassment' over every little thing. That is ridiculous and it invalidates those cases where there is a real problem. That, however, is not the same as women getting paid less or having less opportunity because of gender.

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