Linux

Poll: Are you running any classic Novell products on your network?


We'd like to see how many companies out there are still running classic Novell products such as NetWare, eDirectory, and GroupWise. This does not include Novell's newer line of Linux products based on SuSE.

My perception is that there are still plenty of government agencies and financial institutions running classic Novell software, even though it has become a much smaller part of the market. If you are running classic Novell software, jump into the discussion to tell what advantages it has and why you're sticking with it.

UPDATE 9/4/2007, 4:30 PM:  Just to clarify, by "classic" I am referring to Novell products that pre-dated Novell's shift to becoming a Linux-centric company. I am not implying that any of these products are out-dated or are legacy products. In fact, I suspect that they are still widely used -- even though they don't get much attention from Novell or the media -- which is why I did the poll.

About

Jason Hiner is the Global Editor in Chief of TechRepublic and Global Long Form Editor of ZDNet. He is an award-winning journalist who writes about the people, products, and ideas that are revolutionizing the ways we live and work in the 21st century.

78 comments
mhorany
mhorany

We mainly still use the classic Groupwise products running on netware 6.5 servers for the simple fact that we don't have to deal with email viruses hardly at all. We thought about making the switch to Outlook, but why bother. With GW 8 now you can do all sorts of things. And push email is getting better with GW for smartphones. It's a win/win for us.

wchampag
wchampag

Talk about DOS or a gui that looks like its from the original DOOM graphics department! Other than having to mod the nic drivers on the server, I have to say the down time is minimal. Usually a hard reboot clears most issues up, seeing the down command goes to the abyss and never returns.....

enquiries
enquiries

I run my own business with Netware 6.x servers (and some Windows servers doing DNS, DHCP, and a bit of file and print). I'm bitterly opposed to Novell's decision to stop developing Netware. No system is trouble free, and neither is Netware, but coming back to Netware stuff after a day of servicing Windows machines gives me a big warm "aahhh...that's better!" As for the misleading propaganda given to Novell's investors about Suse 'saving' Novell from Netware's decline, please read my recent article on abend.org: Novell - Stop Blaming Netware.

admin
admin

We use One Novell OEs server, 1 Linux server as our firewall, 3 Novell 6.0 servers and GW 6.5. Unfortunately we have to use 4 MS 2003 servers as application servers. Our Novell servers are rock solid and work all of the time with total security. We only have down time when a hurricane is heading our way or for upgrades. The last time I brought down our Novell servers was during Hurricane Katrina. I can't say the same thing about MS 2003. They need to be rebooted at least once a week and in some instances, 3 or 4 times a day depending on how many security updates you have to install. Microsoft is so over rated. The only reason they got ahead in the first place is because some crooked vendors knew that once you install Novell, there is no repeat business, but if you install MS, they will be called for service on a daily basis. Novell ROCKS!!! MICROSOFT SUCKS!!!!!

tech
tech

I'd like to stay on Netware until it goes away (and pray for an extension!). I have many Netware servers, and many of those have been running for a year or more without a reboot. We also use Edir, Zen, Groupwise.

egruss
egruss

Novell Absolutely! We reluctantly use microsoft only as an application server when a software package specifically requires it. For the real day to day operations we run Netware 6.5, GroupWise 7, Edir, NDPS, Sybase, SLES9..... the list of stable, secure products goes on and on.

paf
paf

No, never had any Novell products here. We are running VMware ESX on four Intel x64 hosts, (total 48GHz CPU and 96GB RAM). VMware hosts 30+ Windows 2003 virtual servers; inkluding SAP R/3 on MS SQL 2005 and MS Exchange. And a single Linux server used for developing embedded Linux solutions. And are we using our time running around booting Windows servers? No, haven't had that problem since NT4. Needed to boot the Linux server a couple of times, though ;-) Peter - www.skov.com - located in Denmark, Europe

kpraha
kpraha

I would have to agree with most who have commented here. The only products listed that could remotely be considered "Classic or Legacy" in the Novell world would be BorderManager and to a very, very small extent, NetWare. eDirectory is alive and well. In fact it is the foundation of one of Novell's up and coming products, Identity Manger. I believe IDM will be huge in the coming years. GroupWise is alive and well, and is in my opinion a great collaboration suite with many more advanced features than Exchange. In fact, I just moved my GW 7.0.2 system to a new NetWare 6.5 cluster last week. I could have chosen, Linux, or Windows, but I know NetWare like the back of my hand, and I know the OS will be supported for many more years to come. With all that said, next go around, I will likely use OES Linux 2 when it is available for my IDM 3.5 upgrade - (To become more familiar with NIX based systems.) From what I have heard NetWare will continue to be supported in its current form for at least another 5 years, and beyond that in the new virtualized version, ???NetWare Vi.??? NetWare Vi lessens hardware dependencies and relieves vendors from certifying for the NetWare platform, which will continue to make the OS a viable option for File, Print and messaging servers in the future. So Jason, I think many of the readers here would appreciate a modified thread. The question could be, "What Novell products are you running in your shop?" I drop off the classic or legacy as they just don't fit.

mikekrd
mikekrd

What's classic? Is GroupWise 7 classic? how about eDirectory? This survey needs to be redone- and made more accurate. I hardly consider Microsoft to be cutting edge.

techrepublic
techrepublic

Two features make NetWare worth keeping: the best-featured file system in the business (NSS), and an insanely stable and easy to set-up directory service (eDirectory). And the integration between the two saves hundreds of thousands of permissions attributes being set on every single non-trivial file system.

mray
mray

Novell is far from legacy or classic. There are many organizations that I work with on a daily basis who count on Novell for their day to day operations. And they choose Novell because it's rock solid and works, day in and day out. It doesn't have security issues like Microsoft. It just keeps on going. Andd I'm not talking about just small shops. I work with companies with 13,000+ users who have been using Novell for years and plan to do so well into the future. Since when is software package called Windows 2003 not legacy? That's 4 years old,and yet you're calling Novell products classic? Give me a break. Novell is not classic, it's current. Get your facts straight.

dcones
dcones

There's lot more out there than ya think.

jasonhiner
jasonhiner

Take the poll here: http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/hiner/?p=538 What advantages do you see in any of these Novell products and what's making your IT department stick with them? [Keep in mind that we're talking about classic products such as NetWare, eDirectory, and GroupWise, and NOT Novell's new Linux line of products based on SuSE.]

jasonhiner
jasonhiner

Take the poll here: http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/hiner/?p=538 What advantages do you see in any of these Novell products and what's making your IT department stick with them? [Keep in mind that we're talking about classic products such as NetWare, eDirectory, and GroupWise, and NOT Novell's new Linux line of products based on SuSE.]

rivars
rivars

I have found in my long career of supporting Novell products that the reference to classic is mis-leading. Most of Microsoft products out there are also classic. Legacy products might include Novell ELS 2.3, or even 3.11, maybe NetWare 4.11, but current products Like ZenWorks, Identity Manager, NetWare 6.5, Edirectory, and of course Groupwise 7.02. Many of my customers use NetWare and GroupWise because "It just works". Do not need an army of engineers to keep it running. When I worked for the Fed, we had 500 NetWare 4.11 servers running in a global Tree. Even using DSS/NWIP to pass ipx/spx across the wire it just worked. Novell's problem has always been in marketing these fantastic stable classic products.

staffordfields
staffordfields

Dont you just love how M$ has to touch every file when you change a top level permission? And what if you have thousands of files in that folder? The 'Newbies' that are the M$ advocates just dont get it.... And the stability... man how I long for that ... (i am running a M$ network...)

jasonhiner
jasonhiner

I think there are plenty still out there. That's why I did the poll. ;-)

mglenn
mglenn

But only because of a handful of third-party vendors who fell for the Redmond line. Otherwise, this would be a Netware/Linux-only shop. The primary reason is simple: where it would take six techs to maintain our number of servers running Windows, it takes us two to maintain Netware. And where the Microsoft techs would be running around restarting Windows servers, applying Windows security patches, and putting out Windows fires, our Netware techs spend most of their day reading trade journals and putting out fires on the handful of Windows servers we do have. So, let's do the math: two techs cost X bucks a year. Six techs cost....? I'm not even going to get into the more subtle costs of Windows, such as greater hardware requirements, greater downtime, greater security hassles. Gee; even a bean-counter should be able to figure this one out. 'Nuff said.

hooeld
hooeld

Cost, reliability, doesn't take a huge management team. I have 6 Techs to manage 170 servers, 41 Phone systems. 41 PA/Intercom systems, spread across a 30 mile x 40 mile county. The Novell systems are the easiest to maintain, giving the techs time to work the NON-Novell tasks. Yes, we have Windows well, and spend more time on the 30 windows servers than the 140 Netware servers.. They Just Run and Run

jlavellx
jlavellx

We run NetWare 5.1 soon to be 6.5 & drivers have not been an issue. Plans to go to OES2 Linux in a year or so. This company has never been down because of a virus & running multi-platform, NetWare-Linux & some Microsoft on the back end has been a blessing for IT as well as the users! I think a lot of Med/Large Company's are figuring out they cant have everything with one OS. Same here; we have only been down for hours because of hardware (not releated to OS) Reboot Fridays dont belong on the back end! Best Tool For The Job! proper testing & evaluation is a must!

tgglutting
tgglutting

At least with Novell you can resolve the issue of too many collisions. Microsoft's answer is that it must be hardware failure or somebody else's issue.

wdewey@cityofsalem.net
wdewey@cityofsalem.net

One of the reasons that my department moved away from Novell is because we had a AD domain for logging onto windows that was replicated from a eDirectory tree. Why run two different trees with the associated costs when you can do everything from one? The only other option I can see is to have static local user accounts on each Windows workstation, which is a security nightmare in my opinion. If there is a way to login to eDirectory natively without requiring a Windows server I would be interested in hearing about it. This would include being about to assign permission on the local workstation for eDirectory users. Another reason we moved from Novell is because they charged an arm and a leg for each little piece of the pie. Bill

skapanen
skapanen

Running 30+ Netware servers, with File&Print, Groupwise, IDM, Zenworks, Antivirus, Backup.. all basic infra. Future plans still unknown.

rcrumb
rcrumb

We are still using Netware and Groupwise mainly because they just plain work! Groupwise hums along with no intervention from me and never any worries about a virus bringing it down. The netware file server just runs. No rebooting every two weeks "because its Windows". I refuse to be just another Windows lemming jumping off the cliff because everyone else is. If its not broken, why fix it???????

bob
bob

We still run GroupWise and eDirectory on Windows 2003 boxes. And we ain't switching! But I do have a question for the Novell gurus out there. Recently I was given the task of writing scripts to automate user account creation on Active Directory and GroupWise. I found all kinds of help and sample scripts for my AD account work. But I have found zip on sample scripts for eDirectory and GroupWise. If there is a place where I can find some stuff, please let me know.

michael
michael

Hi all, I've been working with Netware since version 2.2, and now I have 2 5.0 servers and 1 3.2 server. I have been very pro-Novell all these years, and even got a CNE twice. Recently we decided to replace our aging servers, and I felt that the "right" thing to do would be to move to Windows 2003 Server on the new servers. There are several reasons - first, any time I tell somebody we run Novell, they laugh. I try convincing other techie guys I come into contact with about the advantages of Novell, but since most of them only have M$ experience, they just shrug. Also, more and more I need the services of a application server, namely Win2k3, for stuff like floating license distribution. There are just less and less server-based apps these days which support Novell. Third, I get the feeling that Novell is abandoning "classic" Netware for Linux, and I just don't want to go that route (I've been allergic to UNIX since my college days when I was forced to use inane commands like "li" for list and "cp" for copy, and I got used to DOS where "copy" means copy). And last, as the systems admin of a small college, I think its my responsibility, if I'm already spending money on an OS for a new server, to choose an OS which has the broadest support and flexibility regarding future needs. There used to be a saying years ago that "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM", well today that saying applies to buying M$. I don't want to have to explain to my boss a year or 2 from now that the new cool product she wants to buy won't run on our shiny new server. So I presented a plan and got approval for replacing our administration network server with a new Win2k3 server, and to replace our 2 NW 5.0 servers and 1 Win2003 server on the student network with 2 Win2k3 servers. We will also upgrade Zenworks from 3.2 to the latest version and run it on Win2k3 instead of NW. So I am now testing our new Win2003 server for the administrative network. The servers for the student network haven't been ordered yet, and may not be for a while since suddenly there's no funding. So for the 1st time I am digging deep into AD, and let me tell you - it sucks compared to NDS! OUs exist really only to apply a different group policy, and you cannot have duplicate user names even across different OUs. AD is basically a flat-file database, while NDS is more flexible as its based on X.500. Permissions cannot be associated with OUs. I have to go back to using groups, which I was weaned off by Novell. The commands I can use in login scripts (oops - M$ calls them logon scripts, with an "O") are much limited than the rich script language NW gives me. And there is no way I see in Win2k3 to see a list of all file permissions a group or OU have, like I can in ConsoleOne. Etc. etc etc. So while I prep this new server and I am think I'm doing the right thing in the long term for the college, I still mourn the loss of many NW things. I *am* doing the right thing, am I? -Michael

tiradorfeliz
tiradorfeliz

We still run Netware (tho we'll be migrating to Suse Linux), Groupwise, Zenworks, and Acct Management for synchronizing between NT & eDir. Why? Because we've been able to defend against management's interest to do "what everyone else is doing." We do this by showing how many more people we'd need to do the same job, not to mention migration costs ("Yes, we can spend $500-700K to move to Exchange, and after all that, you'd have...Email!") The Novell products are architected better from the start (NTFS vs. NSS? eDir vs. AD? No comparison) Novell has had security certificates in the network since Neware 4. And of course we have tons of Microsoft software in our environment. XP desktops, SQL servers, Office. Everybody gets a piece of the action.

evansj21
evansj21

I do not understand why you are including eDirectory and GroupWise as "classic" Novell products and why we are "sticking with it" - which implies a negative outlook (pardon my play on words). Plain and simple, these are vital services in our network. Why wouldn't we "stick" with these great, leading edge products?

NetwareGuru
NetwareGuru

eDirectory, Groupwise, Zenworks are part of Novell's ongoing future and are cross platform products that do not require Netware servers. A better question would be who still has Netware servers and Netware specific applications in their enviroment. Considering that Novell has committed to providing support on Netware 6.5 until 2015 I doubt that you're going to see a mass exodus from those that require stable file, print and directory services.

rtobin.itsupport
rtobin.itsupport

We have had one of our main production systems running from Novell 4.2 for the last 5/6 years now.Very stable OS,never had to do any maintenance on it at all in that time.

stephen.lampard
stephen.lampard

We're still running Groupwise, Netware, eDirectory and Bordermanager All are very stable and require less administration overhead than other equivalents - why change and increase our costs and vunerabilities?

tim
tim

[Keep in mind that we're talking about classic products such as NetWare, eDirectory, and GroupWise, and NOT Novell's new Linux line of products based on SuSE.] GroupWise and eDirectory can in no way be described as classic - look at all of the "new" features in E2007 - all in GW first. As as for trying to compare AD with eDirectory - give me a break! Tim

gw
gw

Windows is a classic too. Exchange the same. I think it creates confusion saying a product like GroupWise, that has a new version coming out this year, and is a leading ICE solution on Linux, is a classic Novell product. Greetz, Gert GWCheck.com

mhuffaker
mhuffaker

In fact, as system integrators, we find that there are still a lot of companies out there running legacy products from Microsoft, such as Windows 2003 and Active Directory. Since people in general like to run state of the art software in their data centers, we are switching people to things that are much more modern -- what you are calling "Classic Novell Products" -- such as GroupWise, eDirectory, NetWare (OES), ZENworks.. All of which have had major releases either in the last two years, as well as upcoming releases within the next two quarters. Even better, the products actually live up to their reputation for quality, stability, and security. Why would you choose anything else?

conniew5347
conniew5347

We use several Novell products. Still have NetWare but will be migrating to Novell OES2 Suse Linux. We also use ZENworks, GroupWise and of course eDirectory. eDirectory is effortless to manage, so is GroupWise. We are mainly concerned with the reliability and security and the ability to run on multiple platforms, along with the economy of running Novell products. Novell products need less hardware, fewer engineers/admins and just runs and runs. We seldom have any downtime and when we do it's usually because we are changing hardware or upgrading. GroupWise is really top notch in email security, reliability and productivity and getting slicker with every release. We haven't been down for more than a couple of hours total in 7 years. Zenworks is a fantastic product. I don't know why anyone would ever give it up. Upgrades on Novell products are very easy.

avanti
avanti

My company has been developing for the NetWare platform since 1989 (and I have been doing so since 1983). Our business increased significantly once Novell announced its intention to shift focus towards the Linux platform. In the last couple of years, we have gained several new customers with more than 100 NetWare Servers each, including a Federal agency with over 500, a midwest State agency with 300, and a large pharmaceutical firm with over 400 Servers. All have also invested in multi-year support agreements based upon their commitment to the Server platform for at least the next three years. We also see a regular flow of new (albeit smaller count) NetWare sites and sites re-investing in NetWare by adding Servers or upgrading to the latest releases. (Note: You would probably be surprised at how many sites are still running NetWare v5.1 and the Traditional File System.) Novell's mistake was trying to drive users to Linux before they had a truly robust and stable option for the best File and Print Server solution on the market. Had they waited until their Linux option fully supported concurrent multiple Name Spaces (DOS, Windows, Macintosh, & NFS), Distributed Printing, and the full breadth of other Novell products available for NetWare, they might not have seen the rush away to other platforms by less experienced and committed Administrators.

pfrazao99
pfrazao99

We currently are using "legacy" Novell products because they work great!!

tech.5.spambambino
tech.5.spambambino

What you have to understand is that eDirectory is a cross platform directory that is still VERY much a part of Novell's future direction. It can run on Netware, Unix, Linux, Solaris, Windows, etc and including it will skew the results of your survey. If your intentions are to find out who is still running legacy Novell Bread and Butter. You need to specifically ask who is running Netware, Groupwise, and quite possiblly Border Manager.

mikekoft
mikekoft

Edited Message was edited by: beth.blakely@...

Genera-nation
Genera-nation

Netware techs spend most of their day reading trade journals? So you only really need the one tech at Y bucks per year!

rapture
rapture

At my last employer we used ZENWorks, which can handle the creation, deletion, management, and group policy enforcement of local accounts - no AD or Windows domain necessary. (It also does TONS of other stuff, and is miles beyond $M$!) The latest version of eDir can do Kerberos authentication and AD emulation. Windows PCs, servers, apps, etc. think they're running from AD. As for the expense, a lot of that comes from ala-carte pricing. A good licensing agreement, or judicious use of the various versions of SuSE Linux (OES vs SLES vs OpenSuSE) can save a LOT on costs. Once you get to a per-user eDir license you stop paying fees for each server, for example, and GroupWise comes with an unlimited SLES server license, so that you can set up as many servers as you want to run your mail system your way. You pay per mailbox, regardless of the infrastructure needed. So if you want each and every component clustered separately with Heartbeat, or a 2-node NCS cluster, knock yourself out for no additional charge. Does that help?

Big Ole Jack
Big Ole Jack

products not integrating well or not at all with Netware or GroupWise? The reason many companies are moving away from Novell is due to the fact there exists very few vendors who write middleware applications or products that run on Netware or even integrate with it. When you see your POAs' blowing up because they have issues communicating with a NotifyLink or BlackBerry server, you'll start being forced to move to Exchange. I too was a dedicated and hard core CNE and Novell supporter, but after almost seeing my career go to sh*t due to marker shift away from Novell, I dumped their products and any interest in their corporation in favor of Microsoft because I have a family to support.

Big Ole Jack
Big Ole Jack

The LDIF file is a royal pain in the butt to create itself, but that's the only way I know of to do bulk imports of user objects into eDirectory. As far as GroupWise is concerned, the best you can do is to create the user accounts, but you'll have to associate them with mailboxes manually due to the fact that the PO mailbox database is not integrated into eDirectory. There used to be an old utility called UIMPORT under the older versions of Netware, but I'm not sure if you can still use it under eDirectory. Check out Novell's support site to see if it it works, but I do know that ICE is one way of importing bulk users into eDirectory.

Big Ole Jack
Big Ole Jack

Like you, I too hold CNE certifications, but have since abandoned all support and interest in Novell products because I see little to no demand at all for it. I nearly destroyed my own career because I was a hardcore Novell supporter and didn't even want to touch Windows Server or AD up until I got a very rude wakeup call and realized that if I don't retrain as an MCSE, I may as well start looking for a new line of work. Everywhere I looked, all I was seeing were companies migrating away from Novell Netware and GroupWise towards Windows 2003 Server and Exchange 2003. I was even involved in one such conversion and it did personally bother me to have to migrate from a system I deemed as mature and stable. Yet, it's not what I think or my personal opinions, but what the market dictates and demands. I have forgotten so much about setting up and maintaining Netware and GroupWise that if I were to be put in front of a server running Netware, I'd feel as if I had never seen it before. Do I regret that I am no longer dealing with Netware? No, but I do regret that I spent so much time, effort, and money to get Novell certified, only to see all that become useless in the past few years.

ScouterDude
ScouterDude

As to are you doing the "right thing", we'll let history be the judge. Personally I'd say no. You just became another lemming.... Novell products are our bread and butter, and have quite a few Windows app boxes as well. For small shops, I still wonder if Windows isn't a valid choice, but for larger places, where you use the term 'enterprise', one really needs to look at the alternatives, in particular Novell. eDir is sooo much more than AD. Their clustering is just awesome, way beyond anything MS dreams of. GroupWise rocks, even with it's warts. And yes I agree, the poll question needs to be something different. It doesn't seem like you really know what you're asking about. Some may consider Netware as legacy, but even it has very recent versions. And most all Novell applications are cross plat, so you can still run them on 'new' OSs, like Win2k3.

Big Ole Jack
Big Ole Jack

and I personally have been involved in many migrations from Novell to Windows because there aren't many middleware products written for Netware and because many 3rd party products don't integrate or won't support Netware at all. I too was stubborn at first about moving away from Netware (I am CNE certified up to v6.5), but I'm seeing that many organizations are finding support and integration issues if running Netware and GroupWise.

Big Ole Jack
Big Ole Jack

I recall all sorts of issues stemming from stuck obituaries that would never clear out, requiring Novell to dial in and perform dsdumps, to problems with replication and inconsistent replica rings. It also depends on how large your environment is and the volume of objects in your tree and the amount to be replicated.

Genera-nation
Genera-nation

without any maintenance in 6 years! Mind you you missed on all those Service Packs and enhancements...

Big Ole Jack
Big Ole Jack

for new generations of server hardware. I've heard that many vendors, from NICs' to RAID controllers, will stop writing device drivers for Netware altogether by 2010. What will you do then if you can't get your Netware OS to run on newer hardware?

jasonhiner
jasonhiner

means "non-Linux products." Since Novell has re-fashioned itself as a Linux company, I'm looking for the IT departments that are running the non-Linux Novell products that I mentioned. I was not trying to disparage these Novell products. In fact, I know a lot of people still using them and I suspect that there are a lot more companies still using them even though they get very little media coverage. That's why I asked the question.

Jzoltowsky
Jzoltowsky

We are a government agency and still are running Novell NetWare, GroupWise, Zenworks and eDirectory. Let me say that I am a Microsoft admin but since coming to government I am now a Novell admin with great ease. I have to agree with your posting that it is very easy to administer edirectory, GroupWise and NDS, but it also has its limitations. We did look at migrating to Exchange until we found that it would take twice as much hardware and personnel to run it. We are looking at the next generation of Novell/Suse Linux. Sorry Microsoft !!!!

Genera-nation
Genera-nation

Edited Message was edited by: beth.blakely@...

Meesha
Meesha

We are also running a full stable of Novell products (using Lotus Notes/Domino instead of Groupwise) as well as iChain, ID Manager, BorderManager, etc. Don't see why this is a question at all. If your shop is a heterogeneous shop running multiple vendor products, Novell is the best at this. What else is there? (Not a joke question.) AD? Blahhhhh!!!

mstoumba
mstoumba

And YES they are good products and great support.

Genera-nation
Genera-nation

So the experienced committed administrator accept products before they had a truly robust and stable option? I think not!

Big Ole Jack
Big Ole Jack

Good luck finding drivers for Netware, because there won't be any drivers available to build a Netware 5.x or 6.x system soon.

Belkris
Belkris

We run Intel at work but manage a large Novell network for a major airline. 500+ Novell 5 and 6 servers with Zenware and eDirectory

jasonhiner
jasonhiner

The only reason that I included it in this list is because it is a Novell product that pre-dated its Linux strategy.

glimpze777
glimpze777

Groupwise is not a legacy, it is the 3rd most popular groupware and more technically advance than MS Exchange. We're using it and waiting for the next major release to upgrade. And yes we gonna continue using Netware, the very best file and print server out there. We also definitely upgrade to OES v2 linux platform.

rapture
rapture

You sound like to took it really personally! I love Novell products. I suck with Linux, but I'm learning as time allows, and the Winders stuff is simple to pick up. That's why people like it, by the way, because they think it's easy. What they don't realize is that the 70% functionality that they get to before they call in the "expert" consultants is all they're likely ever going to get. Not because they didn't understand it, but because the products suck outright from the initial design phase. Anyway, there's nothing that says that you can't do both. And there is a decent market for linux outside of the Novell world, too, so that investment of time will pay off as well. You don't have to go all "Novell abandoned me, beat my dog, and tried to steal my wife and kids" on us.

Big Ole Jack
Big Ole Jack

It uses what are known as connectors and the XML language to synchronize AD, eDirectory, and GroupWise for the creation of user objects and mailboxes.

bob
bob

I will look at it, but it isn't quite what I am looking for. By inputing a position code and a budget code, I can pull from a CSV file all the address, title, home directory, description, etc fields to populate an AD User account. I just add the users name, and the account is created. I am looking to do the same thing with GroupWise, which I should be able to do via LDAP but I can't find any code to help me manipulate the eDirectory LDAP

rapture
rapture

I've felt that way a bit recently, too. But the more I learn about the MS products, and the more cross-platform Novell products like ZEN, GW and eDir become, the less worried I am about it. I'm in an environment where we are migrating away from Novell toward MS, and so I am learning SMS and Exchange, I already knew AD but am learning more about it, etc. And as we implement, I am becoming more and more interested in finding another Novell shop. Not because the MS is different, because learning it is easy, but because it's just stupidly designed in many cases.

Big Ole Jack
Big Ole Jack

I agree that eDirectory and the Netware kernel are far more advanced and stable than AD and Windows will ever be, but you have to look at the business side of IT and determine what the right product is for your organization to maintain productivity and compatibility/integration with other systems. I'm finding less and less 3rd party software products being written to run on Netware and even many hardware vendors have announced that they are dropping support for Netware and will not be releasing any device drivers for legacy Netware or OES running the Linux kernel. How does one justify running an OS that has little to no support for the underlying hardware subcomponents that drive the disk I/O and LAN traffic? Novell has sucked at promoting and marketing their products and has failed horribly in enticing 3rd party developers to create middleware products that run on the Netware OS. Yes, Novell products may be cross platform and run on Windows and Linux, but what other vendor are producing software utilities that will play nice with Netware? I can't think of many.

rapture
rapture

Yes, this is the case, and is still the case with many SMBs. However, many larger companies that went through this move several years ago are now moving AWAY from MS because 1. SMS sucks. and 2. Exchange sucks. Windows sucks in some cases, but not all. I personally know of at least 2 fortune 500 companies that have recently moved away from SMS and Exchange in particuliar, both to ZEN and one to GW too.

rapture
rapture

Drivers are irrelevant. If you have existing hardware, you run NetWare natively. With new hardware you just virtualize using SuSE/Xen (recommended and supported) or using VMWare. Either scenario works great, and virtualizes any new hardware so that you don't have to deal with it. I notice that you're a hardware reseller - not a surprise.

ParkerTech
ParkerTech

Same here. We're a State government. We still use NetWare, OES, GroupWise, etc. Our NDS tree is 15 years old this year. It's still our primary directory. Not because we haven't looked at MS. We actually have more Windows servers than Novell. Each one is installed for a specific purpose. Most of our NetWare servers are multi-purpose. The fact is, MS stuff requires more care and feeding. NetWare is simply a stable OS. Granted, it's usability is limited in scope. I had a NetWare 6.5 server stay up for 832 days! eDirectory performance still amazes me. We have a 50,000+ user directory that 200+ apps access through LDAP. Load-balanced across 3 NetWare servers they service most requests in less than 100 milliseconds. Utilization averages around 20% at peak times. With OES2/Linux with eDir 8.8 and the latest HP hardware (quad-cores and 15k RPM SAS drives), performance is at least 5 times faster. Stuff like iFolder, iPrint work really well. The new Domain Services for Windows looks very promising at making windows and eDir work together.

Genera-nation
Genera-nation

The Forum Admin will edit a perfectly good post! I have been asking for reasons why for a while now!!! (to stop any further 'incursions' by accident)...yet, to date, they will not provide any insight or response! That really sucks...

Genera-nation
Genera-nation

The offer of wood was to complete the phrase 'you better touch wood' for good luck & not tempting fate. Quite Offended Now....!!!

skapanen
skapanen

Yes, the hasty ones have already moved away from Netware, and Novell alltogether. Many admins think that Netware and Novell products are good, but OES Linux has not been so impressing - compared to Netware. OES2 is coming, how will it work and compare? who knows.. In any case, you cannot upgrade from Netware to OES Linux, you have to make new installations.. So lot of work, downtime for users.. and to gain what - nothing. So it might be Windows too, or some other Linux solution (not OES). If there was a choice, I'd keep the current setup..

Genera-nation
Genera-nation

nothing more...God would be angry if I did not :-)

The Computer Doctor
The Computer Doctor

As one of those admins that stayed with Netware, BorderManager, GroupWise & Zenworks running on Netware, I knew exactly what avanti's meaning was. If you can't bring something useful to the discussion please don't post. I took OES (Linux) for a test drive and stayed with Netware for it's proven reliability & complete feature set. OES (Linux's) management tools didn't strike me as ready for primetime. Another reason I stayed with Netware was OES (Linux) wasn't a feature complete replacement. I just wasn't willing to give up all those wonderful file/folder rights & attributes. I forward to test driving OES v2. It should be available soon.

Genera-nation
Genera-nation

Your waiting comment was with reference to Novell, not the Administrators.

avanti
avanti

Re-read my post... The point was that the less experienced were scared away from NetWare while the more experienced are willing to wait for a more viable alternative.

enquiries
enquiries

Putting the world's most optimized server kernel on top of big fat general purpose Windows or Linux is like keeping your Ferrari F40 going by having it towed by a Ford Expedition.

Big Ole Jack
Big Ole Jack

what about the shops that still have an old server running Netware and have no plans on virtualizing it by spending money to purchase VMWare ESX? They still need device drivers for the server hardware that hosts their OS.

mstoumba
mstoumba

I have not had an issue getting drivers for netware. I support many sites running Netware 6.5 and Groupwise 7. No issues. I you install netware in a VM its even easer. That's the future of servers anyway.

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