Emerging Tech

Surreal: Apple now worth more than Microsoft + Intel

With Apple about to announce its next wave of product updates at WWDC 2011, the company finished the week with a market value than now exceeds Microsoft and Intel combined.

When historians look back at this past decade in the technology revolution, I wonder if the story of Apple's comeback will look and feel and surreal as it does to those of us who have lived through it? Probably not.

As Apple prepares to announce its next series of innovations at its World Wide Developers Conference on Monday (TechRepublic will provide live commentary), the company closed the week on the NASDAQ with a stock price of $343.38, which means the public values the company at $317.6 billion (what Wall Street calls "market capitalization" or "market cap").

Meanwhile, Microsoft finished the week with a market cap of $201.59 billion and Intel closed at $115.21 billion. You know where I'm going with this. The combined market value of Microsoft and Intel = $316.8 billion. Apple is now worth more than Wintel.

Obviously, that's significant since, during the 1990s, the Microsoft Windows + Intel combo nearly drove Apple out of business. MacDailyNews, which first pointed out this development on Friday when the market closed, dug up this quote from June 1998 from Bill Gates: "What I can't figure out is why he [Steve Jobs] is even trying [to be the CEO of Apple]. He knows he can't win."

While Apple is riding high from a string of product hits, Microsoft continues to struggle to redefine itself in technology world that is expanding far beyond the traditional PC.

Of course, Intel is now a close partner of Apple's in the Macintosh division. But, don't be surprised if Apple's market cap victory over Wintel shows up in Jobs' slide show at WWDC on Monday. Jobs loves to gloat and to poke fun his rivals -- none more than Microsoft.

About

Jason Hiner is the Global Editor in Chief of TechRepublic and Global Long Form Editor of ZDNet. He is an award-winning journalist who writes about the people, products, and ideas that are revolutionizing the ways we live and work in the 21st century.

94 comments
gkoval
gkoval

I guess Apple makes better toys than Microsoft.

ScarF
ScarF

It simply is small investors' blindness for other opportunities. I can hardly wait to see the burst.

samynarayana
samynarayana

Sir, I admire both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. Together, they have lifted IT literacy in just 3 decades far beyond all that was possible in prior decades and in no comparison to any other industry domain. Steve may be arrogant. Bill isn't lagging behind even by an inch. It is their arrogance and self worth and self pride that made them achieve what they have and helped many millions around the world with competing products. We need a lot of Bill gates + Steve Jobs around in corner in the world. They create jobs, net real value to human beings, hats off to them. Hats off to American spirit. I have been a WINTEL user for 2.5 decades. One issue that irritates me about BILL GATES. The operating system MS-Windows easily gets corrupted if you browse through web sites or even receive mails, no matter what AVTK you use. When i buy a PC or note book, the cost of operating system is built in. ( i have paid RO.40 equal to USD 104) every time i bought a new PC / note book towards license of operating system. We get a recovery disc but not a copy of the MS-Windows. If the machine gets corrupted, the only solution is format your hard disc at low level and re-load the operating system. If by any chance we lose the key (as happened to me) there is no way of having a legal copy unless you are ready to pay again. This is unfair and usurious. There must be a way of getting the key for the purchased machine at a small price. This bites me now, because, i am retired and back in India and every cent counts.

pschulz
pschulz

With the advent of so many iPods and iPhones it now becomes a must to have a credit card - there is no other way to purchase with these gadgets. Who wants a society which is driven by credit cards only, where there is no more cash, and money is only a figure in the bank account? The banks do - as this means they will be the ones who have the real power and control over everyone. Where did Apple get the money from when they started to go massive on iPods, iPhones and so on? From banks. Did the banks make the strategy for Apple? Did the world bank select a failing but able company to forward their own strategy? If that sounds far fetched and hard to believe, look to Europe where one country after the other - Greece, Ireland, Portugal is next - is (intentionally) driven into bankruptcy by nonsense politics, only then to be bailed out by the "European Union". Where does that money come from? Banks - which make huge profits from the interest. And puts those countries under their thumb.

pschulz
pschulz

Just realize that the Apple profits are driven by 400,000 Chinese workers producing their iPads and other iWhatnots at a salary of $100 per month. If they were to produce this in the US, their 4 billion profit would be eaten up by wages alone. Fair business? Iconic company? It is the same as in the 18th century when the only way London could swallow all the coal they needed then by having slave workers dig them up out of the Earth on a 18 hour working day. True, PCs are manufactured in that very same company. But not the software. Apple is using aesthetics to capture folks. This is the oldest trick of the universe - it is the oldest trick to capture and enslave people which is known at all ever, period. That's why people buy their overpriced iPods which technically are no better than the $20 Denver MP3 players. But is a coldly calculated move to capture the stupid masses, and capture them they do. Do not believe it is anything else than precisely calculated moves for just that end. Who has the guts to oppose the slavemakers?

johnpall
johnpall

"I still prefer windows, Mac needs to get compatible with Windows just as M$ created a Office for Mac. Then I see not stopping them. " Hey Bozo i prefer Macs , i'm a Musician who has a lot of friends that call on me when things go wrong, they are very artistic and talented but don't know all about the many vulnerabilities XP , Vista & to a lesser extent Win 7 have, don't tell me you've been on XP for the last 10 years and it's still going strong (yeah after 8 re installs) Windows will never be as tight as Mac that's a given & is admitted at many of the Computer Shops i've worked at.

dcolbert
dcolbert

In the traditional PC market, they barely just survived. Apple has become many things, but a PC manufacturer competing with Microsoft OS platforms on CPU foundations that compete with Intel cores isn't remotely what Apple is. It is unfair to take an OS Classic Era quote and compare it to where Apple is today. Microsoft and Intel drove the Classic Mac paradigm into the ground. Better OS platforms on better hardware platforms. Absolutely no question about that. Granted, losing in that market may have been the single *best* thing that could happen for Apple. It allowed them to focus solely and completely on consumer electronics and personal digital content. I mean... who exactly is running OS X *SERVER*? Apple always sucked at that. They quit doing what they weren't good at, and focused on what they're best at. Making the personal electronic equivalent of grocery-getters.

don
don

This discussion seems to center on how people feel about the products of the various companies. I think you're looking at it wrong. Read up on the history of IBM. They dominated the computing industry with 70% market share. There used to be a saying that nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM. In the early 80s they created the IBM PC and created a whole new market segment (I know they didn't create the first personal computer, they just made personal computers a legitimate business tool). Where do they stand in that segment now? Then look at Microsoft's rise. They still make boatloads of money and their software runs over 90% of the PCs out there. What I'm pointing out is that when companies are growing revenue at 30-40% per year, the stock prices get over-inflated. When they level off to a more sustainable growth level, the bubble bursts and their stock price comes down to a normal level. IBM and Microsoft are still solid companies that are making good money. They didn't go away. They just aren't dominating the headlines anymore. Eventually the same will happen to Apple.

damian205
damian205

I realise that Apple's current value takes into account Jobs' illness, but he is undoubtedly the driving force behind the company. Look what happened last time he left and it took his return to save the company last time. Despite what the fanatics think he can't return from next prolonged absence.

itadmin
itadmin

In a huge Apple store the other day nearly everyone was at the mobile technology displays with only me looking at the desktops. MS is mostly desktop. How long this teenage infatuation with hand held thingies is going to last is anyone's guess. But until then it looks as if it's going to be an Apple world. Someone mentioned cars. Look at this: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ind_car_pro-industry-car-production Amazing! Germany made twice the number of cars the USA did in 2010 and Brazil, India, and South Korea, among others, made more than the USA. Forget about catching China in car production. It's just too far in front. And then AMD vs Intel. Look at this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10187248 and click the "By processor" tab. The fastest computer in the world uses an AMD. The newer AMDs don't run as hot. I use them with 64 bit Debian (Linux) and have no problems. Also click the By OS tab. Interesting. Where's Windows? And if Linux is so useless...

donnasander
donnasander

I was waiting for someone to say it. And it's true, it's not going to last. I am sick and tired of answering short, one liner email repsonses from people's telephones becuase they can't email from a "real" computer...and most of them no longer get responses from me...if they don't have the screen space to do a "real" email/post, or whatever they are doing on their mini-mini-mini-mini pcs...if you can call them pcs at all (NOT) And half that money was made from contract subpayments from AT&T, which they won't get anymore anyway...I know people who have the IPAD, and regretted purchasing it...so, all to say, that trends and fads...they all pass...whoever has stock, should get while the getting's good. And Jobs "is" an arrogant selfish ass. I agree wholeheartedly. It's amazing he made it this far..

rucb_alum
rucb_alum

...but more and more of Apple's revenue is derived not from tech or tech development but from subscription fees charged to providers to play in Jobs' sandbox. The tech products that Apple contracts from China (iPhones, iPo/ads) is of very low quality and is appears to be updated to keep revenue flowing rather than from substantial technical improvement. Edison tried an exclusive format (cylinders) that only played on his hardware. Look where that got him. As the market figures out that they don't need Apple to be viable, Apple's fortunes will fall. It's a model that is destined to collapse.

cperry
cperry

While I know you can argue (correctly) that smartphones are computers, Apple isn't really competing with Microsoft anymore in the same field. While Macs have gained some popularity recently, they still don't hold anything against Windows machines. What Apple did do was make boatloads of money on MP3 players and phones. This is an area Microsoft has never really pushed very hard until recently. So while there are areas of overlap, I don't really see them as directly competing in their core business. Microsoft is a PC software company with a few various other products. Apple is a smartphone company with a few various other products.

htmapes
htmapes

Apple has maintained its gross profit margins while growing both revenue and customer base significantly. In most cases, companies growing this fast do so by taking market share away from direct or category competitors via lower prices. Apple has been able to take away market share while charging more. This is part their competitor's fatal flaws, part superior design, part effective marketing and part creating new categories. Whatever the reason, the stock value derives ultimately from the high gross margins that Apple's products command. If Apple introduced a wildly successful product that sold at laptop-like margins, their stock would reflect multiples like Dell's for that revenue. IBM jettisoned its PC line to concentrate on mainframe / mid-range and very high margin services via offshoring for exactly that reason. There are two very good real-world analyses of margin and its effect in the tech industry -- Warren Buffet's discussions about looking for companies that have a "moat" and "The Innovator's Dilemma." What is particularly fascinating is to consider some of the other players whose moats are being breached. Intel being attacked by ARM and NVIDIA. Dell and HP foreseeing their server lines commoditized by cloud services. The telcos' T1 and voice services massacred by packet technologies. The danger to Apple may be that their core base, while loyal and cultish, does not keep expanding. China creates and drives its own smartphone. Android gets more dumb-user friendly. Businesses decide on the more open platforms for automation with tablets and the pendulum never really swings toward employee-owned devices. Without the high margin growth, Apple's stock falls like a stone.

GreenPirogue
GreenPirogue

First, the market capitalization is a bit overstated. I think Apple is overvalued at its current price. Second, one needs to look at how a company influences others. Apple (via the iPhone) has pushed the smart phone industry to do much better, the tablet (via the iPad) niche to do much better, and the MP3 (via iPod but not iTunes) market to be more innovative. Apple focuses on design, and people appreciate it. But the things that are currently overvaluing Apple are not computer "things." Unless you think the world of computers is changing, and that should include anything with a processor. Then Apple would be doing quite well.

rexrzer1238477
rexrzer1238477

when it comes to defining its markets, making relevant, viable, sustainable products, with the backing of the public as the world's 'most trusted brand.' Apple is on a roll for sure, but it's just the beginning of much, much more to come. iPhone, iPad, iPod, and coming up the iCloud which is going to humble all critics and give credence to a new standard in consumer confidence, these are all household words or going to be household words, and Apple got them to be household words by knowing what to do when it comes to all of their consumer products. They're a software company, a hardware company, soon to be the biggest Cloud-based company by (I predict) porting iTunes through the iCloud and giving all those Apple-based products a stake in networking brilliance the likes of which Amazon, Google, and others have never seen before. Hang on, get set, and be ready for the ride of your life as Apple gears itself for the future and keeps everybody guessing as to where it's going next. Flash: It's not going to end, there are more great products in the wings at Apple rest assured, and I see nothing but 'Net in their long-term business model. There will always be nay-sayers and nay-hopers, but even they are going to be brought down to earth and have to admit that Apple has got everything wired-up and ready for transit. The proof is in the pudding, and last time I checked it was a pretty great mix of things that Apple offers the world markets, and rest assured they are not just basing their future model on the USA market...it's world-wide and coming on strong even as I write this. Apple isn't just the No.1 brand in the USA, it's a world-market powerhouse and it's not going to stop and check its hat and take a dinner break. The beginning is what you are seeing now, not the middle, and certainly not the end, and look for Apple to be there at the front of the pack for a long, long time.

adornoe
adornoe

Apple stock is also a bubble. I wouldn't want to be one of the stock-holders when Apple is finally brought down to earth. There is no real reason why Apple stock should be worth more than either Microsoft or even Intel. Unreasonable expectations can create a stock bubble, and when it comes to Apple riding so high on just 2 or 3 products, then it's just a matter of time, just like it was a matter of time before the housing bubble burst, and the dot.com bubble burst.

jakesty
jakesty

Generally just contact the OEM and they will sell you a simple OS install CD, usually like $9.99. Of course if you had created the DVD's when you purchased your computer, just restart them. Both HP and DELL have this kind of a set up and their systems don't require a key. It may be embedded in the OS, but it probably knows upon installation what the manufacturer of the system is that you are installing on. Some of this may no longer be valid as I have not had to re-install a Windows 7 system on an OEM. BTW-Dell uses the phrase "Recovery Disk", which sounds like what you are referring to. On some of the Dells I have worked on, that is the Windows OS. If you have a friend with a DELL OS or Recovery disk, you can legally install from their system since it checks the laptops chipset to ensure you are running a real Dell computer, given that you both own the same version of Windows. Don't forget, create the DVD's, backup your system, image your computer. The responsibility is on you. It's like a car, you expect it to work for a while, but without some maintenance, it will breakdown.

MrRich
MrRich

Am I the only one who use to LOVE reading the Lyndon Laruche tabloid back in the 80's? Too bad they jailed him for tax evasion, we need someone like him to link the cash-free society with the universal subcutaneous ID card and the mark of the devil...

jck
jck

I hope they don't decide to get another former beverage company CEO to come in and run the thing. Pepsi's ex-exec didn't help much. Maybe Woz would consider coming back and being head geek?

MrRich
MrRich

Just a point that standing in an Apple store will not give you a comparison to the volume of Droid phones. Android has a much faster growth rate at present.

jasonhiner
jasonhiner

Of course, supercomputers are still an extremely small subset of the computing world. Also, I don't think handheld computing will die down any time soon. In the developing world, most people will skip the PC and go straight to smartphones. That's going to accelerate significantly over the next decade.

adornoe
adornoe

crappola. Geez, dude, get a life.

santeewelding
santeewelding

Do you know what I mean by that line normal, as opposed to, tangent?

AnsuGisalas
AnsuGisalas

after all, you just suggested the (preposterous) notion that Apple is a market segment unto itself. The dot.com bubble was a (technology shares) segment bubble. The housing bubble was a (housing) segment bubble. A single company cannot be a bubble. A single company can be overvalued, sure. But that's just not what a bubble is - a bubble is when an entire commodity or stock segment is overvalued. Apple may or may not be overvalued. If you feel it is, by all means buy shares of a hedge fund betting against it.

jakesty
jakesty

Apple is not just like the Dot Com market. The DOT COM crash was because of investors betting on crazy escalations of stocks without any demonstration of profits. Apple had a huge quarter of $24B, as in BILLION in revenue, just last quarter. Microsoft and Intel both make billions as well, but Apple is still making profits and innovating technologies. Apples biggest problem is Steve Jobs health. Housing bubble burst? What did that have to do with Dot Com except they both have the word "Bubble" in them? Next time don't post until you get a clue about how things work...DAMN!

itadmin
itadmin

that Apple is big in hand held computing and hand held computing is big. Whether this or that device is best I wouldn't know. Yes, someone else may steal Apple's thunder in the hand held device segment. That happens. Diners Club was the first credit card. Now they're a minor player. But for now the sun is shining brightly on Apple. How long their day will last, nobody knows. Nothing lasts forever.

itadmin
itadmin

supercomputers are still an extremely small subset of the computing world. But that shows that when the chips are down and the demands high, Linux beats Windows pants down. Now if I can get a Linux system for free, and it's easier to use for me than Windows, I'd be a fool to use Windows. BTW, Cairo Dock is much the same as the Apple Dock. I had it, but old fashioned me prefers plain old Gnome with two (top and bottom) auto hiding panels. A big old PC is just so much more comfortable to use than one of these small things. Of course, the kids want to be on the move. The developing world, in many cases, doesn't have the infra structure to support mobile technology. The east will get it, but Africa - forget it.

desilvav
desilvav

XP; (e)xtra poo, like my son says

adornoe
adornoe

When a market segment is dominated by one company, then, the bubble is made up mostly of one company. Business Bubble: A price level that is much higher than warranted by the fundamentals. Bubbles occur when prices continue to rise simply because enough investors believe investments bought at the current price can subsequently be sold at even higher prices. They can occur in virtually any commodity, including stocks, real estate, and even tulips. Again, if an industry is dominated by one company, or if a segment is dominated by one company, and that segment is overpriced (stock-wise), it means that the dominant company could be in for a rude-awakening. BTW, getting into hedge funds is not the only way to stay safe from a business bubble. Not buying the stock is probably a more safe way to not lose your money.

neldeeb
neldeeb

You are 100% correct, jakesty. Let's stick to the facts.

adornoe
adornoe

because, those bubbles were mostly based on irrational expectations, or speculation in a currently popular segment. Business Bubble: A price level that is much higher than warranted by the fundamentals. Bubbles occur when prices continue to rise simply because enough investors believe investments bought at the current price can subsequently be sold at even higher prices. They can occur in virtually any commodity, including stocks, real estate, and even tulips. When Apple's success is based on basically 2 or 3 products, it doesn't matter what the current success pattern is, even if it's a good one for the moment. A bubble doesn't have to be industry-wide, especially when the particular products that are defining the current success for a segment of the IT industry, all basically belong to one company, that being Apple. Apple is riding high on the success of its iPhones and iPods and iPads, but, once the novelty wears off, and Apple's "fan-base" gets tired of upgrading to something slightly different from the prior version, basically because "it's from Apple", then Apple's stock bubble will burst. A bubble in business doesn't have to be industry-wide. Next time, jakesty, learn before posting, because, you're the one without a clue. Like I said, it's just a matter of time, and when the real competition comes online, in many different form-factors, from many different brands sporting Windows 8, then the Apple bubble will be over. That bubble unsustainable with just the 2 or 3 product lines which are defining Apple at the moment. Being so religiously pro-Apple is not the way to view a market or a business.

adornoe
adornoe

Google is trying desperately to be relevant in other IT areas beyond their search engine. They're being somewhat successful in the smartphone market, but, it's turning out that, they may have done it at the expense of stealing IP from others. However, I don't fault them for trying other areas, because, it's best to be diversified when a competitor could come along and take away whatever advantage you had in your 1 main product. Same with Apple, which has been my argument. Apple may be "branching" out to other areas, but if you examine closely what they're doing in those areas, they're just building infrastructure to support those other 2 or 3 products which have made them successful. iPhones and iCloud are built to support the iPhones and iPads and iPods, and they're not really meant to branch out from the Apple products franchise. So, essentially, Apple is looking to increase the infrastructure surrounding their "mobile" products, and Macs are just being tangentially included (and recruited) as further support for their mobile devices. BTW, though Google might be slightly in the same boat as Apple, with its main product being their search engine, they are better positioned than Apple for a more secure future, because, their search engine is still 70% of the overall market in which they operate. But, with time, they're going to have to be more successful in their efforts to diversify (and without stealing IP).

adornoe
adornoe

and what I stated, before my last post, is this: The Apple bubble is based on current exuberance about all things Apple, but, basically, that exuberance came about because of 2 or 3 products which the public fell in love with and where the competition was virtually non-existent, but, the competition is getting bigger, and thus, the Apple bubble will have to blow. It's right up there, look it up. It's what I said, and it's what I meant. In fact, it's an argument which I've been making about Apple for many months and in any discussion surrounding Apple's market cap and how it's basically a bubble. Now, go and take a course in reading comprehension.

santeewelding
santeewelding

The problem with "there", though, is that there is no "there", when dealing with "is". Same with, "when". The changes of language -- system-wide -- remain a mopping-up operation with me. With you, you but begin. Others, I think they have no clue.

santeewelding
santeewelding

You are screwed, blued, and tattooed. Take care with English -- [i]Santee[/i] English.

AnsuGisalas
AnsuGisalas

Like that cricket I was telling him what he knew, not what I know. For all I know, he knows nothing.

santeewelding
santeewelding

Like my little place in Santee -- I'll take whatever you have to tell, rather than the "differentiator" crap I see spewed here, including your own.

jakesty
jakesty

but that shoe has not dropped yet, for years, and people who bet against them have lost out on a lot of opportunity. I would also say that if you forgot iTunes, they would easily be one of the key differentiators that has helped to make iWhatever successful. And they still seem to be much more successful than the competition. Apple's downfall will initially be Steve Jobs health. The company should still survive but it won't be like it is today. Just like Berkshire Hathaway and Warrent Buffet. That's another I'd be scared of putting my money into. BTW-wife and I own an ice cream store in Chicago, guess what, a hot summer's day is not when we sell the most ice cream, but I get your analogy.

santeewelding
santeewelding

[b]Adornoe[/b] stomps with abandon outside the pale, and I fear he is lost to us. Don't you go joining him beyond the stakes of fundamental understanding, piling predicate after predicate on initial predication of what I see as epistemological impossibility. [i]Capice?[/i] ______________ Exactly three. First, I added, ".., and I fear he is lost to us." Second, I added, "...what I see..." Third, I excised the "an" of, "...[i]an[/i] initial..." All, titivation. I am struck frequently by how what I may write thoughtfully in longhand appears, first, in the spare TR text box; then, in full glory of the formal, published font. Something happens betwixt first and last. I am thinking that, in the rush to print, few here experience what I do. They go headlong instead with head up ass. The paid bloggers, they are another story.

AnsuGisalas
AnsuGisalas

That's not what you said, and it's not what you meant either. You're just trying to wriggle your way out from under my foot. But you know what? I'm not stepping on you, you can go. Just don't go spouting nonsense, or I'll have to set you straight again.

adornoe
adornoe

to understand. Do you always need for things to be spelled out 100% before you can understand what others are saying? When somebody mentions that Apple's success is based mostly on 2 or 3 products, what is the first thing that would come into your mind and perhaps into other people's minds. If you guessed anything other than iPod or iPad or iPhone, then you would be completely clueless and living under a rock. If's either that you are living under a rock, or you are happy with those "Apple" blinders. Apple's success is based, mostly, on those 3 products, and, they've been selling like ice-cream on a hot summer's day, but, the reality is that, without just one of those products, Apple stock would not be anywhere close to what it is now. The fact is that, when it comes to those 3 products, Apple did "redefine" that market segment for mobile devices, and they were very successful because they didn't have competition against those products for a few years. Thus, they built a "segment" bubble, but, that bubble is beginning to lose air with more competition coming on-board, and in the smartphone market, where Apple was dominant for 3+ years, Android has surpassed Apple, and WP7 might surpass Apple in another year or two. Thus, a large reason for their success will no longer be dominant. Then, there's the iPad, which, admittedly, is a really fine product, but there again, it has basically been selling without much competition, but, the competition is beginning to take hold, and when Windows 8 tablets and better Android tablets come on board, that segment for Apple will not be dominant either. When it comes to iPods, well, there's not much competition there either. But, with smartphones and tablets being able to do the functions of the iPods, the iPods become a redundant technology, and people will start realizing that they don't really need iPods. All signs point to the Apple advantages being destroyed, even if slowly.

AnsuGisalas
AnsuGisalas

that you can tell me what Adornoe is talking about, when he himself cannot. Peace walk with you, Bill. You may be correct about Apple, but Adornoe still won't be.

wdewey@cityofsalem.net
wdewey@cityofsalem.net

This is the bubble that he is talking about. Apple makes other products, but their success is directly attributed to these platforms. The Mac platform only started growing in market share as these other new shiny products came to market. As competition in handheld mobile computing platforms stiffens then Apples growth will likely slow. Bill

AnsuGisalas
AnsuGisalas

Is Apple dominating the computing segment?!? News to me. Bear in mind that Wintel is not even close being the rest of the computing field. With Apples combined roles, they are in a field that consists of every chip-maker, machine-building corp, OS-maker, etc. etc. If their value rises to eclipse also Dell, HP, Samsung, Hitachi, Oracle, etc. then we can start talking your way, until then though, you don't have a foot to stand on. Or are you claiming that there's a separate Apple-computing segment, distinct from the market of other computing companies? Computing and computers are a kind of commodity, just like stocks, real estate and tulips. Apple computers are not a kind of commodity, they are an exemplar of a commodity. Getting into hedge funds is putting your money where your mouth is; if you're so certain they'll pop, make a bet on it. You'll get rich if you're correct.

adornoe
adornoe

and when it comes to "facts", there are far too many people who will use the word to try to give their argument credibility when in fact, it had none to begin with. That's why I say that, some "facts" will cease being facts as soon as the real facts are disclosed. It's like in the global warming argument, where some people will trot out their "facts" in an attempt to disarm the opposition immediately and to try to win over the clueless masses by claiming that their side is working with "facts". So, if someone makes the claim that, "it's a well-known fact that global warming is caused by CO2 and the overuse of fossil-fuels by humans", that might remain a "fact" in the minds of many, until the other side trots our their arguments to disprove those original "facts". You have to pay a lot more attention to the real world and what is really happening out there, or you'll end up like many who don't know the truth or facts surrounding the issues which affect us all. And, again, a lot of what you said in your original post is not "fact". They may be facts in your mind, but not in reality.

jakesty
jakesty

You almost had it until the last statement, "whatever facts might have existed for a short period of time, will soon cease being "facts". ". Just based on your own definitions of facts, how can something cease to be so? Unless they're proven untrue, they will always be a fact. Besides a lot of what I said is proven facts, just simplified for people like you to nit pick a Harvard Business Review case study on why you think you're right.

adornoe
adornoe

therefore, here it is: Fact: A piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred A statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened An event known to have happened or something known to have existed A concept whose truth can be proved So, when jakesty's posts are based on his personal feelings and views and perceptions, then they're not facts. When it comes to a business or a business sector, conditions on the ground are fully dependent upon everything else in the sector and in the economy, With fluctuations in the market, and with better competition coming on-board all the time, then whatever facts might have existed for a short period of time, will soon cease being "facts".

adornoe
adornoe

and hopefully, you saw some parallels. Now, why even be dismissive about the CRA? It's not just an acronym; it's the root of most of the problems that are besieging the economy right now.

jakesty
jakesty

Without throwing a bunch of acronyms out there like the CRA I just stated the "lax lending practices". Sure the CRA was a lot more than that, but this isn't really the place to discuss the housing debacle. I was just trying to see how a Housing Bubble could be compared to a business bubble.

adornoe
adornoe

and you clearly don't understand the real causes of the housing bubble. I have argued, perhaps hundreds of times, right here on ZDNet, about the real causes of the housing bubble, and it's effects. I could go into another lecture about sub=prime lending, and unqualified mortgage seekers, and Wall street crooks, and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and the CRA (Community Reinvestment Act), and government malfeasance, and government intervention into the private sector, but, at the end of any lecture, I don't believe that you would understand what I said. You are stuck in believing the way you do. BTW, the real underlying cause of the housing bubble, the root of the problem, is the CRA (look it up), and all other problems were mostly symptoms of what the CRA wrought. Without the CRA, the housing bubble would never have happened, and the economic dive of the last 3 years would never have happened. Housing drives a lot of our economy, and when people can't afford to stay in their homes, the rest of the economy will suffer. Now, when it comes to Apple, it doesn't matter that it's just one business. When that business is, basically, the main driver for a particular segment of the IT sector, then it's a bubble which will eventually burst when the competition catches up, and the competition is, indeed, beginning to catch up. The Apple bubble is based on current exuberance about all things Apple, but, basically, that exuberance came about because of 2 or 3 products which the public fell in love with and where the competition was virtually non-existent, but, the competition is getting bigger, and thus, the Apple bubble will have to blow. .

adornoe
adornoe

that Apple's "success" is based on "expectations" rather than on sound business practice.

wdewey@cityofsalem.net
wdewey@cityofsalem.net

The loans were a big contributor to the housing bubble because people purchased with the expectation that prices would go up so they could sell and make money. Apple's success really hinges on consumer products which do not tend to be as consistent as business products. With competition from the android platform I don't see Apple posting the huge growth that they the past several years where they have largely been the only player unless they have another wildly successful product that is in a new business area. Bill

jakesty
jakesty

"A bubble in business doesn't have to be industry wide" Well then that's just a business not performing, I can hardly call that a bubble regardless of it's size when one company fails. Housing didn't bust just because of pricing, I think that had little to do with it. The problem(s) were with the lax lending practices given to people who could not afford to pay 0% down homes, and then when these values went up they got HELOCs and spent the money, then they were underwater with their loans when lending tightened up. Many of these sub prime loans were also ARMs which increased the loan rate faster or inverse to the value of the home. Adding fuel to the fire were the the loss of American jobs so many people faced. And then when all of these defaults on housing started to happen they affected the big companies like Lehman, BOA, and of course AIG due to the Credit Default Swaps. I'm not sure if you realize it but MS has just a couple of products as well. Sure they have hundreds of different avenues, but they all support the OS and Office which makes the money for the company. Apple is no different, like many companies. BTW-Haven't owned an Apple, since it was the APPLE ][ and GS, so not really pro Apple, just pro-business. I happen to manage Windows networks successfully.

adornoe
adornoe

just stay away and don't make a fool of yourself. Most of your posts are non-contributory, and senseless and useless and intrusive and childish and annoying, in any and all discussions. So, stop being a pest.

AnsuGisalas
AnsuGisalas

don't give yourself advice if you're not going to take it. Srsly, if you don't even listen to yourself, why do you expect others to?

adornoe
adornoe

Look, when you don't really have a retort to what others posted, it's best to just not say anything, or you'll come across as desperate and/or dumb. ;)

adornoe
adornoe

Look, when you don't really have a retort to what others posted, it's best to just not say anything, or you'll come across as desperate and/or dumb.

AnsuGisalas
AnsuGisalas

In danish it has two cognates one meaning "rise" (as in rise/step into/unto a carriage) and one meaning "path". A pig sty is "svinesti", which translates directly into swinepath.

santeewelding
santeewelding

"Just" "just" "real" "even" "so" "just" "just" They put you outside epistemological propriety on your horse of marketing exuberance.

adornoe
adornoe

I don't have a horse in the race, and I don't really care who wins or loses in the IT battles. I care about products and services which can serve me well, and I don't care who makes it.

jakesty
jakesty

Your lack of inspiration is underwhelming as well.