- Much closer match to the US compared to all
of the other countries discussed in terms of
- language
- culture
- timezone
- political stability
- education standards
Discussion on:
View:
Show:
Are salaries in Australia sub 10,000 annually? Probably not so I doubt it gets much consideration. Seems I wasted my time in the IT field if someone else will do the same work for such little pay.
Sorry to challenge your view of the world, but the USA is not the only country!
I work for a local government organisation in the UK, and we were able to get some development work done for half the price by outsourcing it to Australia. Australiansare happy to accept A$10,000 for a job which would cost ?10,000 in the UK, and with ?1 = A$2 it's a real saving.
I work for a local government organisation in the UK, and we were able to get some development work done for half the price by outsourcing it to Australia. Australiansare happy to accept A$10,000 for a job which would cost ?10,000 in the UK, and with ?1 = A$2 it's a real saving.
In long term cheap labor destroy all countries, not only US or UK...
Much better spend money for education in own countries. But greedy american managers sell everything, including future for own american childrens. So, good luck them. They are thinking
that money under table from indian's consulting can help them escape difficult time ??? False...
They will fire by upper management, who receive bigger money from different indian's consulting... When I worked in AIG on indian's consulting Sintel,was replaced by another - TATA, because TATA spent more money under table.
After this our manager forced us to teach "experience" indian consultants to simple JCL and TSO, except out regular responsobilities.
What about terrorists, who for some money received
H-1 from consulting, but never worked as an programmers ? What about war or other political problems in India, Pakistan, Russia, China...
Let's spend money for american programmers, including american indians, american chinese, american russians !!!
Much better spend money for education in own countries. But greedy american managers sell everything, including future for own american childrens. So, good luck them. They are thinking
that money under table from indian's consulting can help them escape difficult time ??? False...
They will fire by upper management, who receive bigger money from different indian's consulting... When I worked in AIG on indian's consulting Sintel,was replaced by another - TATA, because TATA spent more money under table.
After this our manager forced us to teach "experience" indian consultants to simple JCL and TSO, except out regular responsobilities.
What about terrorists, who for some money received
H-1 from consulting, but never worked as an programmers ? What about war or other political problems in India, Pakistan, Russia, China...
Let's spend money for american programmers, including american indians, american chinese, american russians !!!
We are currently just starting a 2 year legacy to modern technology conversion project for a UK company. The conversion rate is even more favourable than the Australian dollar. However - its not just the money. Both the New Zealand and Australianculture are a better fit than the likes of India, China and Russia. The lack of good communication and expectation setting are major causes of project failure. Purchasers of offshore services should not underestimate this risk.
I think offshoring is more a function of the total cost of development including the money, quality, processes, time etc. The argument of culture or language do not come to the fore if the above are satisfied as demonstrated for over 20 years by some of the leading firms in these supposedly culturally "alien" countries. These firms have many person years of experience, ISO/CMM compliant processes and almost all of the managers and consultants in these firms speak and communicate in English witha very high degree of comfort.
Guess I'd better start training for a new career cause it looks like the future for programmers in the US is pretty bleak. It was a good gig while it lasted tho. Maybe I should just give in, join the darkside, get my MBA and take up management.
I'm thinking the same thing. I been doing this for over 20 years. Gee, what do you think they'll come up with next for weakening the American Economy?
Companies forget, put Americans out of work, Americans no longer have the money to buy their product. Then, since the company can't sell their products they make no money, and are forced to layoff more people. More people out of work, no money to spend. Etc... Next thing you know, we are back in a depression all because some exec at some company somewhere wants to put a few more dollars in his own pocket. Makes ya sick just thinking about it.
Congratulations greedy Americans. The United States of America is on it's way to becoming one of the poorest countries in the world!
I think I'll move to Australia.
Cheers!
Companies forget, put Americans out of work, Americans no longer have the money to buy their product. Then, since the company can't sell their products they make no money, and are forced to layoff more people. More people out of work, no money to spend. Etc... Next thing you know, we are back in a depression all because some exec at some company somewhere wants to put a few more dollars in his own pocket. Makes ya sick just thinking about it.
Congratulations greedy Americans. The United States of America is on it's way to becoming one of the poorest countries in the world!
I think I'll move to Australia.
Cheers!
Have not most of the US companies been getting the products right from Garments to Electronic gadgets done outside since a long time ?
It's the turn of the software industry now
Decide soon
It's the turn of the software industry now
Decide soon
Have not most of the US companies been getting the products right from Garments to Electronic gadgets done outside since a long time ?
It's the turn of the software industry now
Decide soon
It's the turn of the software industry now
Decide soon
Doesn't this troubling trend bother anyone else. I would have expected this to be a very hot topic of discussion here. I know at least 60 developers in my area who are looking for jobs right now, but can't find anything. This continual drain on the US economy in the interest of padding big (or not) business pocketbooks has got to stop. Eventually this will come back to haunt outsourcers because the economy will be hurt to the point that nobody will be able to purchase the products that have been outsourced or the products being supported by outsourced projects.
I guess the only way to get American jobs, is to move to another country.
How can we raise awareness and start reversing this trend? Does anybody know?
What happened with the United States Government imposing restrictions on H1-B Visa's? Did it happen? Cheers!
How can we raise awareness and start reversing this trend? Does anybody know?
What happened with the United States Government imposing restrictions on H1-B Visa's? Did it happen? Cheers!
I dont think H1B will be as problem as this because H1B people atleast spend their money here. When you do Offshore development you are loosing economy. I personally think H1B players(competition is always good) are much welcome than making our workgo to different country.
While I understand people's concerns about domestic job loss, it's important to recognize that the volume of outsourcing will continue to grow, like it or not. Sorry - don't shoot the messenger - but face facts:
- Wages at about 10% of US
- Very high quality skills & education
- Very good, disciplined coding management processes
- Internet breaks down barriers to communication, info sharing
Plus the other benefits of outsourcing: flexibility, and access to skills that are not your core competency.
Even more than "hard" trade - which is moving toward free trade - outsourcing of "soft" work is very easy now, and has an irresistable cost model.
You can find a way to get on the right side of the trend. Partner with outsourcers to get your work done, and make money thru the partnership, supplementing their work with your own expertise and project leadership.
Peter
- Wages at about 10% of US
- Very high quality skills & education
- Very good, disciplined coding management processes
- Internet breaks down barriers to communication, info sharing
Plus the other benefits of outsourcing: flexibility, and access to skills that are not your core competency.
Even more than "hard" trade - which is moving toward free trade - outsourcing of "soft" work is very easy now, and has an irresistable cost model.
You can find a way to get on the right side of the trend. Partner with outsourcers to get your work done, and make money thru the partnership, supplementing their work with your own expertise and project leadership.
Peter
This is not about taking US jobs away. It is about being competitive and creating more jobs for the US public. If we do not do this somebody else will.
We should focus on what we are best at.
Companies will always get capital where it is available and build it where it can be built the cheapest. This is the law of the business and here to stay.
IMHO if we do not do this today, we will loose even more jobs and not create any new ones.
We should focus on what we are best at.
Companies will always get capital where it is available and build it where it can be built the cheapest. This is the law of the business and here to stay.
IMHO if we do not do this today, we will loose even more jobs and not create any new ones.
The current model of getting large scale projects done in countries like India and doing custom implementation in the US seems to be
working for a lot of companies both from a cost
point of view and keeping the business rolling especially during an economic downturn.
I know most us in the US get upset of loosing jobs to third world countries, but keep in mind all these jobs are being done at a low cost for US Multi-nations like HP, IBM etc.. and sold to clients all around the world thus increasing the revenue of US based companies and US share holders. This also means we could spend on more research and inovation in the US which
has been the key contributor to the growth of the
economy.
We have been able to keep the Japanese, the Germans behind us since they couldn't copy our model. Just how many programmers can you find who could speak and communicate these languages in countries like India or China???
working for a lot of companies both from a cost
point of view and keeping the business rolling especially during an economic downturn.
I know most us in the US get upset of loosing jobs to third world countries, but keep in mind all these jobs are being done at a low cost for US Multi-nations like HP, IBM etc.. and sold to clients all around the world thus increasing the revenue of US based companies and US share holders. This also means we could spend on more research and inovation in the US which
has been the key contributor to the growth of the
economy.
We have been able to keep the Japanese, the Germans behind us since they couldn't copy our model. Just how many programmers can you find who could speak and communicate these languages in countries like India or China???
If you're doing business overseas, then it makes sense to use overseas labor. But, if your doing business domestically, it's good to use domestic labor (pun intended).
I always say, "Shop in your own neighborhood and avoid the mauls".
I always say, "Shop in your own neighborhood and avoid the mauls".
Where were the parts made for you TV, Car, Cellphone, Computer? Do you shop at Walmart and Home Depot, or your locally owned mom & pop?
I'be been in Web development in the past, and have still dabbled in it from time to time. I often thought about off shore development for larger projects, but was always wary of it. . . Has anyone else utilized off shore, and what is their experience? I am just curious, becuase there are so many talented organizations within the U.S. that are doing their best and starving in a saturated market. Wouldn't it seem more ethical on the business side to keep the business here, no matter the cost?All of that said in light of the past six months. . .
There are huge downsides to outsourcing IT offshore!
1)
Language barrier. One of the key functions of project planning and development is clear communication.
2)
Some countries copyright laws are incredibly lax, and impossible to enforce. Imagine seeing your product or a variation popping up everywhere after specs and code were copied and distributed.
Your development dollars just lost their ROI.
3)
Sensitive data and code. Applications that will end up in a government agency (DOD, DOE, etc..)
loose integrity, and increase potential for a backdoor access that can be sold to the highest bidder.
1)
Language barrier. One of the key functions of project planning and development is clear communication.
2)
Some countries copyright laws are incredibly lax, and impossible to enforce. Imagine seeing your product or a variation popping up everywhere after specs and code were copied and distributed.
Your development dollars just lost their ROI.
3)
Sensitive data and code. Applications that will end up in a government agency (DOD, DOE, etc..)
loose integrity, and increase potential for a backdoor access that can be sold to the highest bidder.
I think all the issues you raise are excellent, and I address them in 2 upcoming columns. IN my experience, however:
- Language is not a major issue with big Indian outsourcers, who get the bulk of the work. Culture can be a challenge - sometimes yes means "I hear you", not "I understand and will do" - but if recognized, will be fine.
- IP protection is good with the big Indian and Irish companies, and legal redress is available. This is a major problem with China and Russia, and must be prepared for by reference checks and contracts with domestic entities.
And the corresponding benefits to the client in quality code, very low cost, and staffing flexibility can be great if you pick a reliable outsourcer.
Peter
- Language is not a major issue with big Indian outsourcers, who get the bulk of the work. Culture can be a challenge - sometimes yes means "I hear you", not "I understand and will do" - but if recognized, will be fine.
- IP protection is good with the big Indian and Irish companies, and legal redress is available. This is a major problem with China and Russia, and must be prepared for by reference checks and contracts with domestic entities.
And the corresponding benefits to the client in quality code, very low cost, and staffing flexibility can be great if you pick a reliable outsourcer.
Peter
Let's not forget homeland security, if all the software is coming from oversees it's going to have a lot more opportunity to contain security loopholes that an be used against us.
Damn terrorists have turned me into a pessimist...
Damn terrorists have turned me into a pessimist...
One of the more recent projects I worked on
was an offshore development effort, I was
brought in as an consultant/development
manager after the project started to go off the
rails. I found that there was little to no initiative
on the development side and while the
superficial language skills were there, most of
the programmers didn't feel confident enough
to delve deeper into solution design when they
hit a problem, in addition they had difficulties
asking coherent questions about intended
functionality.
I had to pull it out of the company and as we
examined the produced code we found a
hugely disorganized database due to the fact
that so many people had been working on it,
custom tags that had no documentation, and
that no one could decipher the purpose for,
comments in a number of indian dialects etc,
etc.
I would think twice before using an off-shore
development company for anything other than
basic maintenance....
was an offshore development effort, I was
brought in as an consultant/development
manager after the project started to go off the
rails. I found that there was little to no initiative
on the development side and while the
superficial language skills were there, most of
the programmers didn't feel confident enough
to delve deeper into solution design when they
hit a problem, in addition they had difficulties
asking coherent questions about intended
functionality.
I had to pull it out of the company and as we
examined the produced code we found a
hugely disorganized database due to the fact
that so many people had been working on it,
custom tags that had no documentation, and
that no one could decipher the purpose for,
comments in a number of indian dialects etc,
etc.
I would think twice before using an off-shore
development company for anything other than
basic maintenance....
Having dealt with Offshore vendors, there are many things they don't do well. I handed my job to one not long age only to be re-hired to fix thier work. If you want straight forward, "off the shelf" type of work done, they can do it faster and cheaper, better is a judgment call. If however, you want a custom job, you are just waisting their time and your money. The depth of skill level and business/industry specific knowledge is quite lacking.
As a programmer/project manager, I'm torn between the "Don't send American jobs to India" school and the "Go where the work is cheapest" school. We have outsourced web database work to India and the results have been consistently excellent. The workis technically proficient and asthetically top-notch. When a client says, "We'll only buy your product if you add this feature," and we either can't afford it or don't have the expertise, it's seems a bit of a no-brainer: Pay 1/4 the price for proven expertise and win a major client.
I tottaly agree with all you said.
In the end all it matters is the "proven expertise"... No one will pay a bad programmer only because he/she's cheaper.
Most likely, all it counts is to get the job done.
In the end all it matters is the "proven expertise"... No one will pay a bad programmer only because he/she's cheaper.
Most likely, all it counts is to get the job done.
The government recently gave some protection against unfair foreign competition to the steel industry by raising tariffs on imported steel. We need to protect the American IT industry and American programming jobs by implementing tariffs on imported software code from outsourced labor to protect us from unfair foreign competition. If protectionism is good for heavy industry, it should be good for high tech IT.
If the message of the protectionists is, Americans should hire Americans and buy American no matter what the cost -- then, the only ones being hurt are Americans and American businesses themselves.
Tech labor is GLOBAL -- If I can have a softwarecomponent built for $100 in India, and the same component costs $20,000 in the USA -- how is paying the $20,000 going to help anyone?
By being forced to 'shop local' and pay rediculous prices for commodity-level goods, I won't be able to afford to stay in business -- so kiss all the jobs I give people now goodbye.
Also, if I'm forced to pay those kind of prices to get the products developed and manufactured -- then I'll have to CHARGE those kind of prices and there won't be any customers.
Protectionism is a vicious cycle.
Paying more for something than the going market rate NEVER helps -- it is a form of publicly sponsored 'charity' that helps inefficient, unprofitable, uncompetitive businesses stay in business.
Better to stick to your knitting and do what you do well. Focus on your strengths -- and outsource what is more efficient and cheaper done elsewhere. That way, you can keep your own costs low, and pass the savings on to your CUSTOMERS.
Tech labor is GLOBAL -- If I can have a softwarecomponent built for $100 in India, and the same component costs $20,000 in the USA -- how is paying the $20,000 going to help anyone?
By being forced to 'shop local' and pay rediculous prices for commodity-level goods, I won't be able to afford to stay in business -- so kiss all the jobs I give people now goodbye.
Also, if I'm forced to pay those kind of prices to get the products developed and manufactured -- then I'll have to CHARGE those kind of prices and there won't be any customers.
Protectionism is a vicious cycle.
Paying more for something than the going market rate NEVER helps -- it is a form of publicly sponsored 'charity' that helps inefficient, unprofitable, uncompetitive businesses stay in business.
Better to stick to your knitting and do what you do well. Focus on your strengths -- and outsource what is more efficient and cheaper done elsewhere. That way, you can keep your own costs low, and pass the savings on to your CUSTOMERS.
International trade tariffs don't work. Domestic ones do, but the concept falls apart on an international scale.
Every once in a while a president (good or bad) comes along who doesn't understand economics - Bush II, Bush I, Reagan, Taft - and they put a tariff in place. Within a few years they end up lifting it and admitting that it didn't work.
The result of the current steel tariff will be that companies who must use foreign steel will relocate their factories overseas.
In I.T., foreign trade is *heavily* regulated. You simply cannot ship HP and Compaq's high-end servers just anywhere. "We" use them to model atomic explosions and bio-reasearch and so can "they". You also can't sell software with the best encryption just anywhere. We'll call this ban on exports, "The Prime Directive".
If you want a successful barrier to foreign trade - make a better, cheaper product.
Every once in a while a president (good or bad) comes along who doesn't understand economics - Bush II, Bush I, Reagan, Taft - and they put a tariff in place. Within a few years they end up lifting it and admitting that it didn't work.
The result of the current steel tariff will be that companies who must use foreign steel will relocate their factories overseas.
In I.T., foreign trade is *heavily* regulated. You simply cannot ship HP and Compaq's high-end servers just anywhere. "We" use them to model atomic explosions and bio-reasearch and so can "they". You also can't sell software with the best encryption just anywhere. We'll call this ban on exports, "The Prime Directive".
If you want a successful barrier to foreign trade - make a better, cheaper product.
A lot of americans are scared sh_tless of ANY potential threat to their jobs -- unfortunately, in many cases they put themselves out of work.
The good news is that 'knowledge workers' have no need to fear, as long as they are investing time, money and effort in upgrading their skills to BECOME more valuable.
Pushing a broom is a minimum wage job, yet unions force companies in North America to pay $50K/year to broom pushers because they have 'seniority'. Same applies in the software industry -- and companies can't AFFORD to stay in business and pay high prices for grunt work.
Think about it -- writing C++ code from a clear, precise specification IS grunt work. Any student these days can do it. What we need to focus on is designing the systems and preparing the specifications so that low-level work can be outsourced for the lowest possible cost.
After all, if companies can't afford to stay in business -- then there won't be ANY work for ANYBODY. The only way around this is focus on the higher-level brain work, and farm out the 'manufacturing' to the cheapest and most efficient bidder.
The good news is that 'knowledge workers' have no need to fear, as long as they are investing time, money and effort in upgrading their skills to BECOME more valuable.
Pushing a broom is a minimum wage job, yet unions force companies in North America to pay $50K/year to broom pushers because they have 'seniority'. Same applies in the software industry -- and companies can't AFFORD to stay in business and pay high prices for grunt work.
Think about it -- writing C++ code from a clear, precise specification IS grunt work. Any student these days can do it. What we need to focus on is designing the systems and preparing the specifications so that low-level work can be outsourced for the lowest possible cost.
After all, if companies can't afford to stay in business -- then there won't be ANY work for ANYBODY. The only way around this is focus on the higher-level brain work, and farm out the 'manufacturing' to the cheapest and most efficient bidder.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you. On the surface, your comments may be practical. But things aren't really that black and white.
I know a lot of the best "knowledge workers" that are out of work now because upper management decided to shipthe whole division's work out to India, obviously for cheaper rates. Forget about data security, among other things. Nobody questions that until something goes wrong (like airport security, or the lack thereof).
So after shipping out all that work, and laying of thousands of people here, did the company really save any money that quarter or during the year ? Of course not. The managers who made the decision to ship out the work then decided that they deserved a really fat bonus since they "saved" the company some money, and proceeded to give themselves millions of dollars in quarterly bonuses.
And that's what it really boils down to: a myopic view that the pie's size is fixed and the higher-ups have decided that they want a bigger slice of the said pie, right now, no matter how many people they hurt. Forget about the long term effects or data security or what have you. They'll be gone in 4 years or so, move on to the next company, where they can say: "Look how much money we saved XYZ company the last couple of years...blah..blah...".
I know a lot of the best "knowledge workers" that are out of work now because upper management decided to shipthe whole division's work out to India, obviously for cheaper rates. Forget about data security, among other things. Nobody questions that until something goes wrong (like airport security, or the lack thereof).
So after shipping out all that work, and laying of thousands of people here, did the company really save any money that quarter or during the year ? Of course not. The managers who made the decision to ship out the work then decided that they deserved a really fat bonus since they "saved" the company some money, and proceeded to give themselves millions of dollars in quarterly bonuses.
And that's what it really boils down to: a myopic view that the pie's size is fixed and the higher-ups have decided that they want a bigger slice of the said pie, right now, no matter how many people they hurt. Forget about the long term effects or data security or what have you. They'll be gone in 4 years or so, move on to the next company, where they can say: "Look how much money we saved XYZ company the last couple of years...blah..blah...".
My firm lost a big bid to an off-shore firm late last year. I cut my margins to the bone, and they still bid half what I did. I subsequently laid off 6 American developers as a result. Given the still struggling I.T. economy in the U.S., do you think articles like this are helpful to us? Are the employees of the off-shore firms buying American cars, shopping in American grocery stores, going to American movie theaters, etc.? I just read where approx. 700 dot.com's went under last year, dumping over 100,000 I.T. workers on the street. Do you think that maybe these folks would like a job? Well, encouraging American I.T. firms to send their work offshore sure isn't going to help those folks get off unemployment, will it? I assume you guys are an American firm, and you certainly are influential. Why don't you consider the impact on the U.S. I.T. business sector before you publish stuff like this in the future?
And what makes you American programmers so special? There are problems all over the IT world, eaven in my country.. Is there a reason you would need another form of help, excepting your IT skills?
Hello all,
I am a Romanian senior developer.
What I think you dont understand is our sadness.
I am managing a small team of very qualified software engineers, delivering high quality software for external customers.
My offer basicly sounds like: with the money for a junior developer in your country you can have a team of 5 top developers in my country. And I really mean top developers.
What I do not understand is why are you so upset on us... Think about it: banks in your fancy countries keep our people poor (a medium salary of 150 $/ month...), so a man earning 700-900 usd lives a prince life.
I am very sad because you are so upset on us.It's not my personal fault I am living in Romania.And please stop considering you betterprogrammers than us(I heard this theory a milion times in the last year- thats a new one...). You could have a shocking surprise...
I am a Romanian senior developer.
What I think you dont understand is our sadness.
I am managing a small team of very qualified software engineers, delivering high quality software for external customers.
My offer basicly sounds like: with the money for a junior developer in your country you can have a team of 5 top developers in my country. And I really mean top developers.
What I do not understand is why are you so upset on us... Think about it: banks in your fancy countries keep our people poor (a medium salary of 150 $/ month...), so a man earning 700-900 usd lives a prince life.
I am very sad because you are so upset on us.It's not my personal fault I am living in Romania.And please stop considering you betterprogrammers than us(I heard this theory a milion times in the last year- thats a new one...). You could have a shocking surprise...
In an effort to save money, American mgmt. is giving away America's biggest asset - Intellectual Property. No one understands the extent that offshore developement exposes the US.
1) money is going out of the country funding terriorist organizations.
2) money is going out of the country reducing our economy.
3) business processes, that US companies PAID big money for, are just sent out of the country with no security. Other countries can now upgrade their processes and gain years on the competitive race without the costs.
Wake up America.
1) money is going out of the country funding terriorist organizations.
2) money is going out of the country reducing our economy.
3) business processes, that US companies PAID big money for, are just sent out of the country with no security. Other countries can now upgrade their processes and gain years on the competitive race without the costs.
Wake up America.
it does not reduce costs, first a offshore developer is sold to 2 or more projects full time simultaneously, it needs real detailed technical analysis with a huge waste of time and has no added value and feedback. This results in a low quality of work and time consuming at the end it is much more expensive then expected has everybody has understood or is wondering why
Paolo Sacconi
Paolo Sacconi
- Keyboard Shortcuts:
- Prev
- Next
- Toggle
