Not local time. Kerberos uses UTC, not the local representation. Therefore even if the patch isn't applied authentication will still work, lots of applications will be affected but not auth. So apply the patch regardless. This is even more painful in the *nix environment, especially when dealing with old legacy versions.
See:
http://searchwinit.techtarget.com/tip/0,289483,sid1_gci1241193,00.html
google search: MS document that states it: site:microsoft.com kerberos DST utc
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Which is why a user from any particular timezone can authenticate to a network in a seprate TZ. The only thing is the skew (delta) from the value for UTC the auth-server is running has to be within the default defined value. On MS it's 5 minutes.
Btw: Time Machine for UNIX, Linux or Windows can help check for issues.
http://www.solution-soft.com/pr/PR_TimeMachine-DST_02-22-07.shtml
Btw: Time Machine for UNIX, Linux or Windows can help check for issues.
http://www.solution-soft.com/pr/PR_TimeMachine-DST_02-22-07.shtml
True, Kerberos uses offsets from UTC. However, an un-updated client in the Eastern Time Zone will be using GMT-5 on March 12th, while the updated server will be using an adjusted version of GMT-5, which is only 4 hours behind GMT. This will yield a 60 minute difference between client and server, and kerberos will fail.
The link below is from a Cisco Field Notice. Note the sentence "If you are using Kerberos in your network, it will fail."
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/sw/conntsw/ps1869/products_field_notice09186a00807e0301.shtml
IMHO, if I have to choose a reliable source of technical information regarding Kerberos, I'm going to choose Cisco over a post on a message board. Just my two cents.
The link below is from a Cisco Field Notice. Note the sentence "If you are using Kerberos in your network, it will fail."
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/sw/conntsw/ps1869/products_field_notice09186a00807e0301.shtml
IMHO, if I have to choose a reliable source of technical information regarding Kerberos, I'm going to choose Cisco over a post on a message board. Just my two cents.
It is a little complicated. But's here's a decent converstation from MIT about this issue.
http://diswww.mit.edu:8008/menelaus.mit.edu/kerberos/27540
If you're asking will an application fail? It breaks down to, it depends.
http://diswww.mit.edu:8008/menelaus.mit.edu/kerberos/27540
If you're asking will an application fail? It breaks down to, it depends.
have had kerberos errors logged on my server. Yeh it uses an offset but that offset is based on time zones right? so if you have 2 machines set in the same time zone but with 2 different times authentication will fail. (got the logs to prove it 
DST is a device designed for the sole purpose of screwing you over for sleep two weekends of the year.
it doesn't reduce energy consumption.
it doesn't change the number of hours he sun is in the sky.
all is does is rob your staff of effectiveness for a week after the clocks are changed.
so, it actually costs your business MORE to switch the clocks than to tell everyone that you stick to standard time.
it doesn't reduce energy consumption.
it doesn't change the number of hours he sun is in the sky.
all is does is rob your staff of effectiveness for a week after the clocks are changed.
so, it actually costs your business MORE to switch the clocks than to tell everyone that you stick to standard time.
The issue is not if you like it or agree with it. It is. And as IT profesionals you need to know how to deal with it.
We have no choice but to deal with it and the issues that it causes... good, bad or indifferent.
Study after study after study shows DST does save energy, period.
The only real question is how much and is it worth the problems that it creates.
The only real question is how much and is it worth the problems that it creates.
The Mondays immediately following the changeovers not only result in decreased worker productivity, but also contribute to increased incidence of fatal traffic accidents. The autumn switch is statistically worse than the spring incidence of changing the clocks for the death toll, but it's a measurable increase in both cases.
As far as I'm concerned, we can afford to spend a little more energy to save lives.
Also . . . if they're really that worried about saving energy, they should just stick to DST year 'round.
As far as I'm concerned, we can afford to spend a little more energy to save lives.
Also . . . if they're really that worried about saving energy, they should just stick to DST year 'round.
Instead of spewing crap like that.
Tell me, oh enlightened one, just how exactly does DST cause more traffic accidents?
And even if it does, that doesn't mean that DST isn't a good idea. The next logical step would be to do DST and decrease the traffic accidents at the same time.
Your logic is so flawed at times I just have laugh.
Tell me, oh enlightened one, just how exactly does DST cause more traffic accidents?
And even if it does, that doesn't mean that DST isn't a good idea. The next logical step would be to do DST and decrease the traffic accidents at the same time.
Your logic is so flawed at times I just have laugh.
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1389945700000320
Don't be an ass. You admit that you don't know the facts of the matter, then employ an appeal to ridicule fallacy as a counterargument as if I'm wrong. Let's examine how that works:
"I don't know."
". . . but I'm willing to say you're wrong anyway."
Don't be an ass. You admit that you don't know the facts of the matter, then employ an appeal to ridicule fallacy as a counterargument as if I'm wrong. Let's examine how that works:
"I don't know."
". . . but I'm willing to say you're wrong anyway."
1) DST is still worth it and the driving consequences just need to be addressed. Can't throw the baby out with the bath water.
2) One of the reasons quoted in the story in the fall case of DST could be related to alcohol consumption (extra hour to drink). Hardly a reason to not embrace DST.
Bottom line, the world has energy issues. DST helps temporarily address this. Much more needs to be done.
But because DST temporarily inconviences some people is beside the point. You don't like DST...I don't like energy saving light bulbs. Who cares?
2) One of the reasons quoted in the story in the fall case of DST could be related to alcohol consumption (extra hour to drink). Hardly a reason to not embrace DST.
Bottom line, the world has energy issues. DST helps temporarily address this. Much more needs to be done.
But because DST temporarily inconviences some people is beside the point. You don't like DST...I don't like energy saving light bulbs. Who cares?
Good of you to offer an opinion. Now offer some logical support for your statements, rather than just stating them and figuring that covers it.
"DST is still worth it and the driving consequences just need to be addressed. Can't throw the baby out with the bath water."
Unsupported statements. Thanks for your time. Please move along.
"One of the reasons quoted in the story in the fall case of DST could be related to alcohol consumption (extra hour to drink). Hardly a reason to not embrace DST."
Yeah . . . 'cause I always get drunk to celebrate the end of DST. Don't you?
(that was sarcasm)
"But because DST temporarily inconviences some people is beside the point. You don't like DST...I don't like energy saving light bulbs."
There's a distinct difference between disliking energy saving lightbulbs and disliking the possibility of someone half-asleep flying through a Stop sign to t-bone my car, potentially killing or maiming me. Thanks for playing. Please move along.
"DST is still worth it and the driving consequences just need to be addressed. Can't throw the baby out with the bath water."
Unsupported statements. Thanks for your time. Please move along.
"One of the reasons quoted in the story in the fall case of DST could be related to alcohol consumption (extra hour to drink). Hardly a reason to not embrace DST."
Yeah . . . 'cause I always get drunk to celebrate the end of DST. Don't you?
(that was sarcasm)
"But because DST temporarily inconviences some people is beside the point. You don't like DST...I don't like energy saving light bulbs."
There's a distinct difference between disliking energy saving lightbulbs and disliking the possibility of someone half-asleep flying through a Stop sign to t-bone my car, potentially killing or maiming me. Thanks for playing. Please move along.
That people trying to work graveyard shifts tend to cause more accidents. Your body has a natural circadian rhythm. Efforts to circumvent it tend to cause problems- like a lack of alertness.
You really need to try a quick search of an issue before you post knee jerk responses. And your attitude will tend to invite flames. We really don't need that.
Edited to add an "r" in an appropriate place.
You really need to try a quick search of an issue before you post knee jerk responses. And your attitude will tend to invite flames. We really don't need that.
Edited to add an "r" in an appropriate place.
Well then, while we're throwing out DST because it is causing more accidents (tenths or even hundredths of a percent more), perhaps we shouldn't stop there.
I propose that since these natural circadian rhythms you speak of are so dangerous, that we pass a law requiring all businesses to close after 9pm.
Kinda puts a crimp in my late night runs to Taco Bell, but in the interest of safety, I'll cooperate.
Now really, sarcasm aside, get a grip on the cranial-anal inverse and think about what you and Apotheon are saying.
Sure, I'm pretty sure we can find a study to support just about anything nowadays. I sort of remember someone proving that eating too much broccoli actually causes cancer.
The effort put forth for DST is two fold. One, try to save some energy. Two, it's just nice being light outside later in the summer
I propose that since these natural circadian rhythms you speak of are so dangerous, that we pass a law requiring all businesses to close after 9pm.
Kinda puts a crimp in my late night runs to Taco Bell, but in the interest of safety, I'll cooperate.
Now really, sarcasm aside, get a grip on the cranial-anal inverse and think about what you and Apotheon are saying.
Sure, I'm pretty sure we can find a study to support just about anything nowadays. I sort of remember someone proving that eating too much broccoli actually causes cancer.
The effort put forth for DST is two fold. One, try to save some energy. Two, it's just nice being light outside later in the summer
"The effort put forth for DST is two fold. One, try to save some energy. Two, it's just nice being light outside later in the summer"
1. As long as you're trying, it doesn't matter how effective you are or whether there are side-effects much worse than the positive effects toward which you're aiming, I guess. That's fairly typical for the justifications offered for governmental programs.
2. If you want to stay out later, stay out later. You don't have to cause people to die just to have the ability to stay out later.
1. As long as you're trying, it doesn't matter how effective you are or whether there are side-effects much worse than the positive effects toward which you're aiming, I guess. That's fairly typical for the justifications offered for governmental programs.
2. If you want to stay out later, stay out later. You don't have to cause people to die just to have the ability to stay out later.
"I propose that since these natural circadian rhythms you speak of are so dangerous, that we pass a law requiring all businesses to close after 9pm"
Im assuming you were being sarcastic here, yet your poking fun at the very thing your supporting. Congress telling me I have to go to bed an hour earlier is the same as telling me i have to close my business an hour earlier.
"but in the interest of safety, I'll cooperate." so you wouldnt cooperate in the interest of safety but are all for cooperating in the interest of.... of what?
Maybe next congress could enact a bill requiring that one hour of your daily pay would go to an energy conservation fund. That fund could build pretty windmills with flowers on them. I believe that would meet your requirements for acceptability as it would save energy and just make it nice to be outside (all the time not just the summer!):-)
Im assuming you were being sarcastic here, yet your poking fun at the very thing your supporting. Congress telling me I have to go to bed an hour earlier is the same as telling me i have to close my business an hour earlier.
"but in the interest of safety, I'll cooperate." so you wouldnt cooperate in the interest of safety but are all for cooperating in the interest of.... of what?
Maybe next congress could enact a bill requiring that one hour of your daily pay would go to an energy conservation fund. That fund could build pretty windmills with flowers on them. I believe that would meet your requirements for acceptability as it would save energy and just make it nice to be outside (all the time not just the summer!):-)
I havnt seen the report but the I can definitely see where that extra hour of drinking at the bar in the fall would cause more accidents. I know its my favorite night to go out! Would be interested to see the report to see if it notes a timetable.
thats why i love this country, all the options for conserving energy and we decide to control the sun.
I was eating cereal when I read that. I almost choked on it. You need "Warning: May Cause Laughter" disclaimers on these things.
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/03/08_dst.shtml
http://www.ucei.berkeley.edu/PDF/csemwp163.pdf.
The study was conducted in Victoria, Australia but the location and climate is equivalent to southern California in the Northern Hemisphere. The researchers found that energy consumption increased by .34 % when DST was extended. Furthermore, this study wasn't just predicting based on trends, the extension actually occurred due to the Olympics.
The decision to extend DST in the US was based off of 25 year old studies that concluded there would be a 1% decrease in consumption. According to this article, http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0728_050728_daylight.html
there really isn't "study after study after study" that "shows DST does save energy". I'd like to see links to those numerous studies that prove DST saves energy because I wasn't able to find much support for it.
Seems pretty silly to cause all of this upheaval and problems that we have been experiencing due to DST based on information that is 25 years old. A lot of things have changed since the '70s and I tend to doubt that conclusions found about energy consumption still hold true now.
http://www.ucei.berkeley.edu/PDF/csemwp163.pdf.
The study was conducted in Victoria, Australia but the location and climate is equivalent to southern California in the Northern Hemisphere. The researchers found that energy consumption increased by .34 % when DST was extended. Furthermore, this study wasn't just predicting based on trends, the extension actually occurred due to the Olympics.
The decision to extend DST in the US was based off of 25 year old studies that concluded there would be a 1% decrease in consumption. According to this article, http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0728_050728_daylight.html
there really isn't "study after study after study" that "shows DST does save energy". I'd like to see links to those numerous studies that prove DST saves energy because I wasn't able to find much support for it.
Seems pretty silly to cause all of this upheaval and problems that we have been experiencing due to DST based on information that is 25 years old. A lot of things have changed since the '70s and I tend to doubt that conclusions found about energy consumption still hold true now.
Its hard to find applications that won't continue to work just fine. UTC is the standard applications count on, and UTC doesn't change.
A problem will arise if people see local time and see that its an hour off. As a rule, clocks don't say "9:00 AM Standard Time" or "9:00 AM Daylight Time". Its truncated to the ambiguous "9:00 AM". If someone sees the time, sees that its an hour off, the temptation is to change it. That's what will cause a problem; that's what would cause people to diverge from UTC.
The appropriate fix is to switch from Standard time to Daylight time. That's not something people are used to doing.
Head off the temptation to change the time. Get the new start and end dates in place.
A problem will arise if people see local time and see that its an hour off. As a rule, clocks don't say "9:00 AM Standard Time" or "9:00 AM Daylight Time". Its truncated to the ambiguous "9:00 AM". If someone sees the time, sees that its an hour off, the temptation is to change it. That's what will cause a problem; that's what would cause people to diverge from UTC.
The appropriate fix is to switch from Standard time to Daylight time. That's not something people are used to doing.
Head off the temptation to change the time. Get the new start and end dates in place.
Perhaps this will finally force Microsoft and others to make changing the DST rules easy. While this is the first (I think) change of DST to affect the USA, other parts of the world have had to deal with numerous changes in DST rules. Microsoft, all PDAs and many network device do not have a simple and reliable way of changing the rules. Calendaring Outlook and synchronising with a PDA does not handle the change well!
I lived in Arizona for over 30 years, never jumped forward or fell back. Never missed it, and the world didn't end because it didn't happen there. Now I live in Virginia, and find it's a worthless event. Why bother?
End of story.
I live in Indiana, one of those States that used to not change. I couldn't care either way but if it saves energy, why not do it?
I live in Indiana, one of those States that used to not change. I couldn't care either way but if it saves energy, why not do it?
And good luck with all that.
There are opinions that energy savings result. There are not facts.
With this change, it was emplaced in a manner that allows it to be rolled back to the original logic if there is no provable reason to do it early again. Why would that be?
I am interested in seeing what productivity losses occur this week with missed appointments and meetings. And if the value of that lost productivity is equal to, greater than, or lesser than the value of the energy savings that we will supposedly realise.
There are opinions that energy savings result. There are not facts.
With this change, it was emplaced in a manner that allows it to be rolled back to the original logic if there is no provable reason to do it early again. Why would that be?
I am interested in seeing what productivity losses occur this week with missed appointments and meetings. And if the value of that lost productivity is equal to, greater than, or lesser than the value of the energy savings that we will supposedly realise.
They have the 5 o'clock news coming on at 4. Of course, 3's already past, so I can't scroll back to see what's on now.
It is true that Microsoft has released a number of patches to address the DST issue, but these solutions are a crapshoot. In an all MS environment (OS+ Exchange 2k3 + Windows Mobile 5) testing is proving that there is no way to fix it all.
The patches seem to have no way of knowing what's already been done on a mailbox. Broken events get fixed, but fixed events get broken. Correct them only to have them broken again by the PDA fix!!
This definely could have been done better by MS. The Exchange tool has a horrible fix rate and pushing the Outlook update out and then training 100s of users to correctly apply is a nightmare.
The patches seem to have no way of knowing what's already been done on a mailbox. Broken events get fixed, but fixed events get broken. Correct them only to have them broken again by the PDA fix!!
This definely could have been done better by MS. The Exchange tool has a horrible fix rate and pushing the Outlook update out and then training 100s of users to correctly apply is a nightmare.
Microsft did not create the DST bill nor did they sign it into law. it is not their "responsibility" to fix what is essentially your issue. if you do not like their fixes, write your own.
I live in the UK, notwithstanding, I was advised to download the "critical" update for Dalight Saving Time, as I am not affected by this, I deleted the download. Now I just get a large sign saying I deleted a critical download - it doesn't matter that it doesn't affect me!
MS should get their act together, and it may be a good idea to try putting such downloads as optional downloads in future.
MS should get their act together, and it may be a good idea to try putting such downloads as optional downloads in future.
I really don't understand why all of the sudden this is Microsofts problem... they didn't make the change to DST. How are they supposed to know if the changes will affect you? The person in the next office may need the changes.
Microsoft has made patch's for there products
so i really can't understand why some of the blogers are blaming them for this they did there job
and i think the reason they put the patch in high-priority updates is because a lot of ppl would bypass the patch if it was in optional updates
so i really can't understand why some of the blogers are blaming them for this they did there job
and i think the reason they put the patch in high-priority updates is because a lot of ppl would bypass the patch if it was in optional updates
Microsoft did a crack job of testing the patches before releasing them, and then revamped them and did a rerelease, they also have made a patch for updating the outlook calandars from the server which will only work in certain environments, and not all. They also failed to properly document the calander tool.
I have uploaded the files needed for Windows XP, Windows 2003, Windows 2000, and Microsoft Office Outlook 2003.
Go to: http://www.metrixcomputers.com/DST
Go to: http://www.metrixcomputers.com/DST
A Microsoft site lists an update that is supposed to solve this problem at:
http://blogs.msdn.com/securitytipstalk/archive/2007/01/25/don-t-let-your-computer-fall-behind.aspx
http://blogs.msdn.com/securitytipstalk/archive/2007/01/25/don-t-let-your-computer-fall-behind.aspx
You probably aren't affected at all.
But, as the world shrinks smaller and smaller every year and we all interact in more and more ways, if you do any business at all with the US, have meetings scheduled with US counterparts, networked globally with the US, have staff who travel here with laptops, handhelds, etc there could be complications.
But, as the world shrinks smaller and smaller every year and we all interact in more and more ways, if you do any business at all with the US, have meetings scheduled with US counterparts, networked globally with the US, have staff who travel here with laptops, handhelds, etc there could be complications.
For those that don't know about the patch and aren't updating your computers, get ready for a hack attack. Haven't found a windows 2000 patch yet.
While MS is not releasing a patch, they have released a KB article detailing how to manually resolve the issue. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/914387
Go to http://www.intelliadmin.com/Downloads.htm. You'll find a little utility that makes patching W2k boxes about as easy as it gets. It's called "Windows NT/2000/XP/2003 Daylight Saving Time Fix". They've even got one for Win98 boxes. Point-n-Click, a whole lot easieer than manually going through all the steps.
Australia changed the dates of Daylight savings last year and I have to say, the general consensus was that the work experience kid wrote the patch for it.
For most of us, we just grinned and bore it for extra few weeks. staff learn't not to rely on their outlook calendar if dealing with companies outside of their office. Nightmare....
I hope things go better for you folk in the US.
For most of us, we just grinned and bore it for extra few weeks. staff learn't not to rely on their outlook calendar if dealing with companies outside of their office. Nightmare....
I hope things go better for you folk in the US.
Make sure you manually update your mobile phones also. We are already seeing a conflict with our Outlook schedules being off an hour. Cingular and Nextel have patches.
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