Discussion on:

Computer for a 9 yr old

I plan to introduce computers and programming to my 9 yr old. He uses (rather plays) computers at his school and daycare; but my wife and I wanted to wait for some years before getting him interested in computers. This way we were able to inculcate a great reading habit into him. He is a voracious reader.

I would like to get (build or buy) a simple and less expensive computer for him. If he has the aptitude then maybe sometime in the future we could look at other upgrades or newer systems.

Apart from programming, he might use it for playing games, and an internet connection would be necessary for downloading programs and software.

What are your suggestions for hardware and software?

I was looking at KPL (http://www.kidsprogramminglanguage.com/kids.php). Any thoughts?

And, thanks for all suggestions that are going to pour in.

already. I thought the gang would have been on this one like bees to honey.....

(are they all asleep?!)

Ok, from me, a nice little piece of software:

http://www.familyfirst.com/pc_tattletale.html

I'm not saying he'll do anything he shouldn't, don't get me wrong. It's a good way to keep any eye on him though, on the basis that boys will be boys. Remember the internet these days is the old equivalent of Playboy!

I'm thinking it's a good way for you to track back bad downloads; where he could have picked up something nasty (!) as well as what he's doing on the net. You can also teach him safe surfing with this: you can also show him how to search without fear of hitting the "wrong type" of sites - - - -

the example I use in my presenters mode: We have a swimming pool in my area with an unusual name, which brings up 8.3 million hits on Google search, all but one are porn sites. Why? Because the name of the pool is (wait for it.....) Wet and Wild.....!!!

This program can be hidden, so if you wish, your son doesn't even have to know it's there. It's good back up. I actually use this at work. It's the only way I can allow "certain people" to access the internet safely and provide evidence of what they have/haven't accessed.

(Remember I work in a mental health Trust, with a secure unit. Nuff said?)

The only problem with this program is that *some* AV programs detect it as a KSL, and demand its' immediate removal. (Who said Symantec? .... whoops....) so if you decide to use it, drop me a line and I'll tell you which one doesn't.....

I'm absolutely no good on hardware, so I'm afraid this is my only contribution! Having said that, I'd recommend you save yourself some money and go with Open Office as your office program. I've been using it for a while now, and have found very few differences between that and M$ Orifice, and have had no problems with it. It's so similar it shouldn't cause any problems even if he's using Orifice at school. They're THAT similar.

My last suggestion: he needs to be able to "break" things without fear of death by father, so I suggest you start of with a lot of second user bits and pieces first. That way there's no comeback if it does break.

Is he going to be building this with you? It's a great way to learn and understand computers and networks. I wish I'd done that! - my usual comeback comment at work is "I can talk a good network, but I wouldn't have a clue how to build one......"

Hope this helps - and the rest of the gang get their act together and join in!!!

GG

There was a time that it was cheaper to build your own computer. Today, for what most people use them for, you can usually find something off the shelf that fits the bill.
Personally, I would look at computer surplus sites on the net. usually you can find really good deals on systems that businesses have traded in that are only a year or two old. For dependability, look for workstation class computers (any used Dell Precision with dual Intel processors). Look for as fast as you want to pay for. With a gig or more of memory.
TigerDirect has refurbished units, which can be a good deal. I'd buy a refurb in a heartbeat at the right price.
They have pretty good deals on new systems regularly and if you subscribe to their email notifications, you see great deals every day or two. If you want to build one, they have components and barebones kits.
There are all kinds of places online that carry all you need.
But, it's hard to say for a 9 year old. Anything under 1 ghz is hard to find software for anymore (except maybe online).
And don't forget your local pawn shops, too. Just make sure you get a reciept.
Or, you could just go ahead and get that dream machine that you want and hand yours down. That's what I did with my grandkids and my niece and nephew. They will probably get this one, too, in a year or so.
Take care.

...these days, we can find something that meets our needs. I just do not want to go overboard and buy/build something too fancy. As a .net programmer it is no brainer to choose a PC for me - I like to have all the memory, CPU and hard disk I can get I was unsure about the entry level computers for kids.

we kind of went overboard, and got her a laptop. Glass of water spilled, fried. The second computer we got her was a 500 dollar best buy. For what she is doing, it works. My daughter is 14.

Now, my daughter loves to draw. When I kick in with the x for the next computer. I will probably recommend that we get a good one so that she can load good graphic programs for her drawing.

Starter computer. Desktop, they are cheaper. Easy to fix. Easy to upgrade if interest by your son dictates.

Just my suggestion.

Dan

My little one will get my current laptop in a year or two when she's ready. I only "really" need to upgrade my notebook now but by that time I'll "definately" need to upgrade the notebook.

I'm pretty confident jam fingers and a glass of water or two won't hurt it being a toughbook 27 though. When I first got it the demo was to boot it up, start a defrag then toss it from waste hight and jump up and down on it. I believe Panasonic's marketing tended to put it under running water while turned on or run over it with a half ton truck.

Eitherway, I better start saving for the CF28 or later style number now unless I'm going to downgrade when it comes time.

For as little as $50 you can still find usable 1GHz boxes with 512 Mb RAM that you can load with PCLinuxOS or SAM Linux and have great safe machine for 9-year old.
True, there are no big names in gaming for Linux but still dozens of good games are available for Linux.
KDE desktop environment offers good K-educa software too ( typing, wocabulary, stelarium,chemistry...)
Couple hours of sharing the computer with your boy you can spend for creating useful shortcuts/bookmarks for:
http://encarta.msn.com/
http://www.britannica.com/
http://www.m-w.com
and so on.
Linux certainly can be enjoyable box for 9-year old.

We bought a Dell Desktop refurb with LCD monitor and SB sound card (she's hearing impaired or we would have stuck with the integrated sound) for our Granddaghter when she was seven now she is nine and it's still going strong. I recently added a Dlink card to it so she can surf as well. Windows access controls on XP is all we use at the moment for access control but I expect we will have to go to something that she can't bypass soon

...I am not good at hardware either . That is one reason I posed the question. I was more looking from the perspective of software programming and computers on a whole. He is a book worm for now.

"Is he going to be building this with you?" Wow, now you have introduced a good thought into my head I was not planning to do that. See there is benefit in posting questions in this forum.

I'm just the opposite. Great at Hardware but I can just spell Program.
Now, Starting a 9 year old out building a PC and then teaching him to program, I can see the potential there. But putting together only one PC will help, but if you set goals along the way, like,planning to build another one in say, a year or so, It will help to get him to look at things from both a hardware and software perspectives.(not to mention you'll learn, too)
It's really not a hard task, though it may seem daunting at times. There is so much "Stuff" out there.
I'd look at Building at the ends of the trends, like right now, instead of building a Vista monster, I'd Go with a P4 or Athlon XP-ish processor to base it on. Prices are coming down steadily. Then, in a year or so when you build another one, you will have something that makes a great back up, gift to a niece or nephew, or a good way to learn to sell on ebay.
Another way to look at it, is go even more behind the trend and pick up a used P3 system. I gave my grandkids my dell Precision 410 workstation, and at 550 mhz and 512 mgs, I could do everything that I do now and they love it because "Grandaddy gave it to us".
And I'd look for OEM versions of XP. They usually expensive. You don't get a book, but they don't make 'em like they used to, so why pay extra for a pretty box and a pamplet.
Or you could really get crazy and start him on Linux. . . .
Enough of that, These may help

Tiger direct also has good help articles on building and such
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/category/category_tlc.asp?CatId=31

This is a better source for memory, good prices, too
http://www.kahlon.com/

And there are literally hundreds of places online to get parts.

And a place to test it online to see how you did

http://pcpitstop.com/

Another option Would be to go to Dell and look at there refurbs.
I really wouldn't dwell a whole lot on what type, really. He's 9 years old. And a computer is a computer.

And who knows, he might decide that he likes reading "Real" books much better than fiddling with computers at all. All you can really do is help him to find what he was born to do and just enjoy it along the way.
Take care. Hope this helps.

XP oem software is "Less" expensive.

Maybe I need a cup of coffee :")

...great information and insight.

As I said, my thought is to just introduce him to computers from a technical point of view. My wife and me, both being programmers, have sought to keep him away from computers knowing how addictive it is He rarely^n (rarely to the power of n) gets to use it at home. He gets to play video games only on the weekends and holidays (or real long car drives). Books, TV and travel have kept him occupied.


And who knows, he might decide that he likes reading "Real" books much better than fiddling with computers at all. All you can really do is help him to find what he was born to do and just enjoy it along the way.
Take care. Hope this helps.

Can't have said it any better. For now he leans towards being a Zoologist though he does not even realize how gifted (unlike his dad that's me )he is in music and mathematics.

I appreciate your posts. Thanks a bunch.

Don't forget the "computer as tool" approach. You can't get away from computers in this "brave new world" but you can get away from "computers as the end product" mentality that too many of us have.

If he is good at music then make sure that the computer is a fairly good one and buy a copy of Finale and a Midi keyboard with lots of patches in it. He will be able to write music on the screen, learn where the notes go and how to compose multi-part scores.

Ok, maybe Finale might be a bit expensive for him at this point but you should get the idea. The point being, get him something that lets him enter music on score sheets and assign instruments to them.

...I will buy you a beer. That is one heck of an idea. I do not know anything about Finale or Midi...but you have given new wings to our thoughts (my wife's and mine). We were planning to stop at Walmart or someplace and buy him a keyboard. He has been learning recorder at school, and been able to practice it on the recorder and his toddler's brother's xylophone.

Let him play as he wants to on the computers that he gets to use at school and the like. Don't even allow him access to one at home under any circumstances as this is harmful to the poor child!

Take one very long good look at him and then add up all the money he has cost you to get to this stage. It will be at least several hundred K so if you want to make the little sod pay you back for all the trouble inconvenience and cost that you have been put through try to keep him away from computers for ever. Only allow him access to one when he's at Uni Studding to be a Brain Surgeon then when he's finished his Internship you can continually hit him for money and keep insisting just how much good that you have done for him as look at where he has ended up while you have made all the sacrifices for him to get there.

I have a 10 year old Nephew who a wiz on computers and loves to play games On Line but otherwise has no interest in actually fixing the things only in playing with them. The machine that he uses predominately is a fairly late model P4 with all the high end stuff and an ADSL Modem connected as that is the fastest available where his parents live. He's been using computers for about 4 years now and has gone from a 1100 AMD with 128 MEG of RAM running 98 SE to something very close to a Top of the Range Gaming System running XP Pro with all the bells & Whistles.

And worse still I had absolutely nothing at all to do with this for some reason it was recommended that to help his Hand Eye Coordination they buy him a computer to play simple games on. He's turned into a monster that continually wants more & more in the way of hardware and at the moment he's still only playing relatively simple games On Line.

As for his Hand Eye Coordination there is absolutely nothing wrong with that as some of the things that he can do with the keyboard go beyond the normal Highly Skilled IT Person. Though to be fair he still walks into walls and things like that but I still believe that's more because he can not be bothered looking where he's actually going and is far more interested in where he has been.

Col

Baseball would be better, huh. Look at us

..I do not understand your point, here.

Let him play as he wants to on the computers that he gets to use at school and the like. Don't even allow him access to one at home under any circumstances as this is harmful to the poor child!

This is what the Social Workers in the Child Welfare industry will tell you to do. Unless of course they have a vested interest in which they work at selling something that they insist that are absolutely necessary for children to have.

Take one very long good look at him and then add up all the money he has cost you to get to this stage. It will be at least several hundred K so if you want to make the little sod pay you back for all the trouble inconvenience and cost that you have been put through try to keep him away from computers for ever. Only allow him access to one when he's at Uni Studding to be a Brain Surgeon then when he's finished his Internship you can continually hit him for money and keep insisting just how much good that you have done for him as look at where he has ended up while you have made all the sacrifices for him to get there.

Children are expensive and only get more so the older that they get. My youngest is 32 this year and still runs home to get daddy to fix things for her. I've long since given up hope of getting any return on my investment in this monster. Actually Both Monsters as instead of repaying me for everything that was provided for them they continually continue to return here and ask for money or for me to fix things for them. Naturally they don't supply the parts that's my job.

I have a 10 year old Nephew who a wiz on computers and loves to play games On Line but otherwise has no interest in actually fixing the things only in playing with them. The machine that he uses predominately is a fairly late model P4 with all the high end stuff and an ADSL Modem connected as that is the fastest available where his parents live. He's been using computers for about 4 years now and has gone from a 1100 AMD with 128 MEG of RAM running 98 SE to something very close to a Top of the Range Gaming System running XP Pro with all the bells & Whistles.

Actually I thought that this was fairly self explanatory. These little monsters get together at school and check out the specs of each others home computers then go to their parents and claim that they need something better to do whatever it is that they do on the computers but it's only Keeping up with the Jones Mentality. They Network much better than us poor adults who are too busy earning a living to actually have the time available to get information for so many different sources.

And worse still I had absolutely nothing at all to do with this for some reason it was recommended that to help his Hand Eye Coordination they buy him a computer to play simple games on. He's turned into a monster that continually wants more & more in the way of hardware and at the moment he's still only playing relatively simple games On Line.

This was suggest in the strongest terms by a Social Worker in the child welfare industry to help the child improve at school.

As for his Hand Eye Coordination there is absolutely nothing wrong with that as some of the things that he can do with the keyboard go beyond the normal Highly Skilled IT Person. Though to be fair he still walks into walls and things like that but I still believe that's more because he can not be bothered looking where he's actually going and is far more interested in where he has been.

This little monster Ham's it Up and is incapable of concentrating on what is presently at hand unless he's playing a game on line. He continually looks everywhere but where he is going is selectively deaf when it suits him. Generally does as he pleases and then blames everyone but him for what happens to him.

This child when asked what he wanted for dinner a couple of years ago while his mother was changing the new born baby looked directly at his mother and said Boiled Baby.

Or a while latter while in the bath waited till his mother got worried because he was too quite and when she got into the bathroom he was lying face down in an overflowing bath tub. When his mother pulled him out and started giving CPR he burst out laughing which made his mother so happy.

Then there are the things that these lovely things repeat that are supposed to be confidential and Continually Drop you in it!

As for the computer that he uses they started him off on a 1100 Duron basically something similar to a Pentium only a lot faster. That only lasted for a few months the CD ROM only lasted a few days as apparently CD's and Jam I believe that the Americans call Jam Jelly covered fingers don't mix to well. I'm still not sure how he managed to do this but he somehow managed to feed the computer bread covered with strawberry jam. When it stopped working the first time when I opened the case I found about half a loaf of bread thickly covered with jam inside the case and naturally a very dead M'Board & Power Supply.

He kept destroying CD's at an alarming rate because sticky little fingers and CD's don't make a good mix. The drives didn't fare much better either as he managed to trash quite a few of those as well. Then he moved from playing games on CD to On Line Gaming where again his Network of Fiends had told him all about several On Line Gaming Places devoted to children his age so he just had to play these sites. His mother took a quick look and thought that they where safe as they where just games for children, what she failed to notice is that they where playing each other and when one pulled of something special or won a game they talked to each other in Real Time. Not so great for a 8 year old without any idea of who he was actually communicating with. Places like that while good for children are also dangerous and unless you know exactly what is going on the children can be placed in Harms Way without you knowing about it.

Why will a child refuse to speak to a stranger face to face by will open up completely on the Internet?

If the child asks for a computer by all means get him one or upgrade either your's or your wifes and give him the old one to use but make sure that he's always fully supervised when using it and that if he gets one of your's every bit of data has been transfered off the HDD and deleted otherwise it will end up as Public Domain Information.

If you don't want to upgrade your existing computers buy an Ex Government one from one of the major resellers who specialise in these you'll pick one up quite cheaply and you don't need to go overboard with something that may never be used. If the child wants to play they will but you never force a child to do something that you want them to do and they are not really interested in doing.

At 9 years old they will not really be interested in writing any programs in any language they may like to use the thing as a Games Console but not as a tool for something. When they get older they may be interested in writing programs but when they get to the Mid Teens they will be looking at writing Porno Games.

Also never allow any child unsupervised access to the Internet one 15 year old downloaded the construction plans for the F16 and printed them as a Science Project in his school newspaper with a Commodore 64 years ago.

Todays equipment is far superior and they have the ability to get into places that are not healthy places to be particularly since 9-11 where they will be treated as terrorists first and children second.

Col

so you are saying don't get him a computer?

Yeah, we did not plan to leave him unsupervised. I wanted the ability to block access to the Internet when my wife or I was not with him.

The less that you show then the safer that they are. Kids of that age already have an extensive Network of Fiends who will lead them astray and they don't need help.

Really it depends on what you want to do and what you are attempting to teach the child. When they get to that age most of the Children's Programs have been used and are no longer apporate for them. Sad But True and the Learning Software that is available they are not interested in using as that eats into their Play Time.

Then you have to remember that the child has you wrapped around their little finger and you'll eventually have to give in and allow them what they want as they are worse than Nagging Women till they get what they want.

Both of my children are incapable of repairing what they break and that's just in software one is 32 and the other 34 this year or so I'm told that they continually run home to Daddy and get him to fix their messes. They no longer even make a phone call as I'm a wake up to them by the way that they first speak to me when they want something so the Sorry I'm on my way out no longer works.

The last time that I got hit by one of them I returned home to find 5 computers sitting on the floor with SWMBO ready to tear into me for allowing them to be brought over. Apparently they are still attempting to play one off against the other and as yet haven't realised that we are up to speed and know when this is happening.

What will happen is that if you have the intention of getting the child interested in programming you'll find that you are writing the programs for them to play with and they will be giving copies to their friends at school to play with as well. They are crafty little Sod's and run rings around their parents for quite some time to come yet.

I got rid of mine when they where approaching 20 but today the children are staying home longer to bleed their parents Dry while they have a Great Time at our Expense so the trick is not to make it too enticing for them to stay at home. I saw a story here where one girl who's approaching 35 is living at home because she can not afford to move out. This is because she's currently paying off 5 investment houses so she stays at home rent free and Bulges off her Parents who she's bleeding dry with her actions.

Personally I think that we as parents have made things way too easy for our children these days and there is no incentive for them to strike out on their own any more, as they see things it's easier and less trouble to stay at home where everything is done for them than moving out and having to clean up after themselves.

Col

She had a modem run in by lightening one time and, yeah, I bought her another one. But, I showed her how to open up the case, pointed things out to her, showed her how the card went in, how to ground herself and let her put the card in. She put the cover back on and then I stood there and let her run the installation software.
Well, I got a call a few months ago and she was so proud. She had, on her own, taken out a defective CD drive and put a new one in but couldn't get it to be recognized and wanted to ask me before she took it back to the store. I had her check to make sure the IDE cable was seated right, and that was the problem.
I was so proud of her that I bought her a bunch of memory last month. And I even put it in for her (but I did make her watch).
She's 27, and she has a 9 and 7 year old that I gave my old computer to.
I think I know what my project this summer will be. On the rainy days, anyway.

...I have a 8.5 year old, and you have 30+ years old So you have the experience on this one.
As a parent I am just trying to open different worlds to him. I got him into reading books, my wife ensured he did all his homework + extra academic stuff, we allow him to play video games only on select days. We wanted him to stay away from computers as much as possible.

Who knows he might dislike computers

I was talking about doing it with my grandson, who'll be 10 in may, and my grandaughter, who turned 7 last October. I usually take them maountain bike riding whenever I get up to north Georgia. But, I think this summer I may just line up a computer project up for them.

I posted earlier that I gave them my old work station and that they love it. They don't get to use it very often. It's rationed out on a rewards basis and supervised with no internet connection.

So, I think a good rainy day project of opening it up and cleaning it out with them will be right on time. The 7 year old will probably pick it up faster than the 9 year old, though. She can focus whereas his brain always seems to be "out there somewhere". Oh, he's smart, just kind of like Hal9000's nephew. He gets preoccupied and is likely to walk into a wall and the occasional tree every now and then(and has a cast on his arm to prove it).

And I really appreciate your original post. It's really got me thinking about how kids are only little for a short time. Thanks.
Keith

I'm going through this with my sisters kids now the oldest is about 10 or 11 and they just have to come over to my place to play computer games across the LAN and On Line at the same time.

I've yet to run across a young child that isn't memorised by computers though maybe a bit of reverse Physiology may do the trick here push him onto the computer and make him use it maybe he'll grow to not want to use it. But as I've said I've yet to see a Kid who doesn't want to use a computer even the oldest Nephew who was forced to use a computer for a supposed Hand Eye Coordination Problem can't get enough of the things.

I'll swear that if allowed they would play on the computers here for days at a time and only would take a break to go to the toilet but they wouldn't sleep at all.

Col

I agree with your wisdom and insight. Just watching my son's interest in TV and Video Games makes me believe you. Maybe I can teach him cricket and he can represent USA in another decade or so in a World Cup

As you suggest, the biggest lesson is that computers are "hammers" (tools). They are a means, not an end.

I started my kids out on old Dell throw-a-ways back when they were about 3-yrs old. I gave them Dr. Seuss spelling and word game programs, the Mia series (math, science, reading) and a variety of otherwise annoying to grown-up learning games.

My 9-yr old is now a wiz with fractions and geometry. His teacher keeps complaining to him to show his work and my son just says that there isn't any work converting from 32/64ths to 1/2 so what work does she want him to show?

I must admit he is now addicted to RuneScape (web based game with lots of other kids) but he is learning about economics and how others may try to make a raw deal for you.

Other than that, they can actually go for a day or two without computers and play with the Legos. And, no, they don't get to use the computers before homework is complete.


As a side note. Make sure that you make them quit their programs mid session some times so they learn that losing data in the middle of a game is not fatal to their long term mental health. Most of the time, kids will feel obligated to finish a "chapter" or such before quitting. That can take a long time!

Sounds like this kid would have some issues even without a computer.

Anyway he was only the beginning of the rot as now all 3 of my sisters sons are avid players of PS2 and computer games and are constantly fighting over their now restricted time that they are allowed to use the Game Console & or Computer.

The problems started out because the child was left to play the games recommended by the Social Worker who insisted that there would be no harm in him using the computer. Then as the other children got older they naturally felt left out and now the youngest which is 5 this year is a Computer Junkie with only his older brothers and their friends to observe when they use a computer.

Between the PS2, Computer and TV they don't get out side too much and even then the eldest one hams it up to get attention. The last time that I was over there they had been giving the goats molasses sticks to lick on and it ran down their arms and literally everywhere. The eldest one went into where the Miniature Pig lives and allowed the pig to lick off the Molasses that he had over a lot of his body till he decided that he wanted none of this and it was at that stage where the pig who wanted more forced him into a corner and kept him there. Till this day if you listen to him tell the story there was this Giant Carnivorous Pig who was out to kill him when the poor little pig stands all of about 14 inches high and is fully grown.

As I've said elsewhere he doesn't take account of now but either looks back to where he was or thinks about whats he's going to be doing and forgets about what is Happening Now.

Col

general bad parenting. These things don't happen just because you give a child a window to the world. It's the parents responsibility to make sure their kid doesn't jump out of it. Hal, it sounds like you have some real issues.

These are not my children just in case you missed the blatantly obvious.

However saying that after dealing with the child welfare goons I know that they claimed that I was abusing my children because they played with my work computer when I brought it home after work. That was years ago however and the same fool also claimed that if I ever changed my daughters dirty nappy I was sexually abusing her.

There are fools born every day of the week and most of them unfortunately end up as Social Diseases in the Child Welfare Industry.

Col

Social Disease insisted that if I didn't change my daughters dirty nappy I would be neglecting her as well so either way it was a No Win Situation.

I could only comment on just how stupid this fool actually was and never attended another Parent Teachers Night again as the PC BS had just gone way too far. What impressed me was just how many other parents shared my sediments and walked out as well so obviously it wasn't just me who thought that this Social Worker was so far off the planet as not to be considered as human. What was even funner was that she was addressing us about 15 to 18 year olds and then threw in the bit about New Born's.

Col

... to say you are abusing if you were changing the diapers. Did they jump from another galaxy or what?

That this one was from this world as it was at best totally insane.

But I did like the explanation that Mothers Can Not Sexually Molest their children when that week there had been 3 cases where women had been found guilty of this very action.

Seems that it was all Girl Power where Men are Bad and Women are Good.

My comment was that if you get turned on by changing a dirty nappy you have some real issues that need working out and you really need help. Pity that mine by that stage where way too old but I could have used that as an excuse to never change a dirty nappy ever again if I had babies around the house.

Col

It isn't every day that somebody is willing to jump into a conversation and tell somebody that their relative is a bad parent. Usually people try to be a little more circumspect and ask questions that might lead to such a conclusion.

You must really be a strong individual to be able to stand up and make such a determination from so far removed from the situation.

Sure most of us might think that but to actually put it in text and post it where it will be archived and searchable for untold years... That takes some serious guts.

Hal, it sounds like you have some real issues.

The attitude sounds very much like some Social Workers in the Child Welfare Industry that I was once forced to work with. The parents where always wrong and the child could do no wrong as they are Innocent and never tell a lie.

While I shouldn't laugh the one that told me this got stabbed by one of her Little Angels and left for dead. She survived but not because of any help from the children and I was told that after a lot of counselling she was back to her old ways protecting the Poor Children from the big Bad Parents who smacked them when they did something wrong as a Child can never do any wrong.

While I don't condone what happened to her in any way when I heard the story I couldn't help but laugh after I knew that she lived as she was completely insane and fully believed every word that she spoke. Needless to say that was one client that we dropped like a Hot Potato.

I was locked in the place once and then finding out that someone was stabbed there was enough for me to refuse to allow any of my team near the place again. At least the prisons where safe to go to but the Child Welfare Places where downright dangerous.

Col

In fact ALL kids misbehave on some level. And anyone who claims they never lie to their parents is just lying some more. But I do believe kids will lie, misbehave, or do more terrible things for a REASON. And that reason, at least before the child hits those teen years, is usually the parents. Parents have a real problem trying to blame their kids' problems on computers or video games, when it was the parents who decided to use those things as babysitters in the first place.

And it concerns me that anyone would talk the way you have about family, terror-child or not. Your sweeping generalizations about children returning to you the investment you made in them made me want to barf. Do your kids know how you feel? If I knew my dad said that kind of thing I wouldn't just stop asking him for help fixing stuff--I'd never talk to him again.

It appears to me that you don't know Col very well. There is lots to know and not very hard to find. I say this for 2 reasons: 1) the assumption you make doesn't match the impression I have of him from the hundreds of his posts that I have read; and, 2) if you had actually read what he writes then you would see that his moniker is "HAL9000" and he signs his posts with "Col".

One of the biggest mistakes that people can make when it comes to relying on the written word is to infer intent or emotion. Especially if the inference is from a small sample of writing.

Would you, possibly, be willing to get off of you apparently high horse and ask a question instead of making an accusation?

Try something like this:

Col, are you suggesting that the kids' problems were due to the computers? Usually situations like this are more related to the people raising the kids.

Will you edumicate them for me? Yes they know exactly what I say and they even where aware of the fact that I would tell them to Go and Play on the road in front of an oncoming semi when they where young. They never did as they where told but always insisted on doing the opposite.

Currently I tell both of them that I plan on living long enough to be more of a problem to them that they where to me. And do you know what happens they just Laugh At Me!

Sorry but I've tried everything possible to rid myself of them and they are not interested perhaps when you get a bit older you'll understand the way that peoples minds work. Having sat back and watched parents drive their children I decided that I would ever do that to mine now instead of appreciating that fact they complain. My son who trained with a swimmer you may have heard about called Kerrin Perkins loved to swim is still great friends with Kerrin as am I because we helped out there all the time is now insisting that he could have been as good as Kerrin if we had of pushed him. The fact that he wasn't interested and even the Coach was appalled by the fact that he was a better swimmer than Kerrin but lacked the Killer Instinct to achieve so he just had fun in swimming and it was pointless to attempt to force him to do something that he wasn't interested in. Anyway neither of my children will desert me because they want what we have when we die or sooner as they are currently dividing up the spoils.

But as Family is the most important thing in our lives we have always instilled this into our children and even if they may not see some relatives for 10 years they can pick up a conversation where they left off all that time ago.

As for expecting a valid return on my investment in my children I think that every parent expects this I just don't hand it to them on a sliver platter and they had to work for what they got so they appreciated it that much more.

From your posts here it seems to me that you just expect things to be given to you by your parents because they are your parents. The trouble with this is that once you start working you can not expect a job with high pay because you think that you deserve a good living. You need to work for it. Your postings here show the attitude of the expectation of Expecting everything handed to you without any effort expended on your part.

And that from my prospective really is Child Abuse as the children never grow up and continue to expect to be given things regardless of weather they deserve them or not.

Col
Edited to add Actually i wouldn't give you my children's E-Mail addresses as I don't think that you could handle their responses when you told them to walk or better still run away as fast as possible. They would just tell you where to get off in no uncertain terms and that would most likely upset you and make you cry yourself to sleep.

And all I can say is that every parent worth anything expects to see a ROI in their children. Some may prefer to call it something else and some may not like the way that I describe things but every parent who loves their children expect this in some form.

The bottom line which you have yet to learn is that children are nasty, noisy, demanding things that get worse as they get older. Things for the first 41 weeks start out as Hell and only get worse from that point on. The older that they get the worse they get till they eventually totally leave home and then return to visit at a much latter point. A year or 2 ago my youngest went around the world and insisted on taking a digital camera that belonged to me with her, not because she wanted it but so that I could have pictures of all the places that I had not been. At least that was her excuse.

This year she's going to France for 6 months to play up like a second hand lawn mower I suppose.

Both of my children haven't been unemployed a day in their lives unless you wish to count when my son was told to stop working by the Heart Specialist till he could undergo an operation for a heart problem when he was about 29 or 30. Even then he cost us a recently restored Mercedes as it was destroyed taking him to the Meat-Works and he couldn't say a single word as the truck that rear ended it flew around the corner. He just looked and tried to cover any exposed skin to prevent any cuts.

Till the day that I die I'll be constantly expecting an ROI for all the trouble and expense that those children have cost me and my wife over the years and I'll get exactly what I want from them because that is how they where brought up and they consider it their duty to do as well.

If anything I might say that you have Issues by not believing that you owe your parents anything at all and your expressed attitude that if you where spoken to like that would make you walk away shows just how inconsiderate and selfish you actually are.

The only thing that you have in your favour is the fact that you don't believe that children and Little Angels Who Can Do No Wrong. So there is some hope for you yet.
I really bet that you'll feel differently when you have another 25 to 30 years under your belt and a couple of screaming children who are demanding immediate attention at your feet.

Col

Kudos for keeping your kids employed, but I'm pretty sure that's all anyone can really expect. Most people in this country can't even break even financially, much less have some great surplus to return to mom and dad just because of some abstract sense of duty to people who chose to raise you.

It is possible, after all, to just not have kids. I'm not having kids. You're right--a couple of screaming children is simply not part of my picture of happiness, and it saddens me that most like-minded people will eventually give in and have kids for the sake of some mythical American dream. Having kids in the first place can itself be a bad choice.

Your story about the Mercedes is curious. It's unclear just who was driving it, but I'm going to guess it doesn't matter. That kinda thing is just a fact of life. Accidents happen, and that's the risk you run putting a car on the road. If you're not willing to risk your Mercedes then it probably shouldn't be driven. Simple, really.

I'm also curious, though you certainly don't have to comment: have you returned your parents 'investment'? Would they even accept such a gift?

My parents would be thoroughly shamed if they felt like they had to take my money for any reason, like their impressive debt, much less go *expecting* me to fix the results of their bad choices. They might still accept. I'm not sure. It's very possible that I'll be able to do that for them someday, but we'll cross that line when we get to it. But I know for a fact they don't *expect* me to cough up what I'll earn for being a generally bright person. Or maybe the fact that I'm doing well enough to pay for my own continued education, automobile, living expenses, etc., is part of what you mean by a return?

Fair enough, perhaps, but it was definitely my brother, and not my parents, who taught me to love math and logic and got me to a point where I could earn a huge scholarship from a standardized reasoning test. There are a lot of influences on our cash. Mom and dad encouraged me to work through high school, and I did. And that's the best they could do for me on that front. I appreciate that, and I would never throw it back in their faces by *not* working.

I happen to think the bottom line is that there is no bottom line. Family isn't business. It's the people most likely to help find some joy in life. Talking about family in terms of investments and returns is like ruining the big holiday gathering with a full gift exchange: depressing tokens of I-clearly-didn't-know-what-to-get-you and wracking up some credit card debt in the process. When my mother's family finally stopped that nonsense you could just feel the tension around the holidays lift, and we could focus on what was really important: eating way too much food and catching up with the family we don't get to see often enough.

It's actually at those gatherings when I get to babysit my cousins' brats for a while and remind myself why I'm not having kids. My aunts question the finality of my decision. They only good reason they can come up with to have kids, however, is that it's "soooo rewarding." Everything I've seen (and everything you've plainly told me) indicates otherwise.

My current boyfriend is trying to convince me that we have a duty to pass on our brains and good looks. I told him in that case we should adopt an adorable child and provide an enriching environment. He said it wouldn't be the same, and I had to say that if we have any duty at all it would be to help kids who already need us, not just create more. We're still talking through this one. I might be willing to compromise and make the sacrifices necessary to keep him happy and help a child in need. Maybe. But I certainly won't be expecting a return. I'd be perfectly happy to give everything I have and see a needy child flourish and never actually see a dime. That's why they like to call it a sacrifice.

Granted I did say above about a 9 year old that if they could keep him away from computers they could hit him for a loan when he was a Brain Surgeon but other than that I don't remember making any reference to money just a Return on Investment which doesn't necessarily mean money.

As for the Merc it was destroyed because it was being used to do something for one of the kids and while I'm not the slightest bit happy about loosing a car that took 5 years to find and then 2 to totally restore I'm much happier that I was driving that than one of the new ones as everyone in the back seat would have been dead and most likely the people in the front seats trapped in the wreckage. But the reason that it as taken is because I was asked to drive the newest car that I had just finished restoring as he wanted to travel in something with Class. For some strange reason a Fully Loaded Refrigerated 10 ton truck is always going to do much more damage to a stationary car than the car will ever manage to do to the truck.

In that case as he had to be awake for the procedure there was a running conversation between the OR where my son was and the ER where his parents where as he was far more concerned about what injuries his parents had got than about himself. Then when the Surgeon lost the shunt instead of getting worried he said I trust you and went to sleep. You just don't have a spring loaded 1.2 inch thing with big barbs on it floating around in your blood stream and expect to live too long.

But as far as my parents where concerned they where quite happy with me very unhappy about the fact that my younger brother died at 26 and here I'm only talking about my now dead father he was ecstatic when his daughter who was born 13 years after me when he was 64 passed out of Uni as a Qualified Speech Therapist. Now she is like her mother and speaks down to every one and those are her Mothers words not mine along with the following "I trained her way too well."

I hate to state the obvious but if everyone was to work along the same way as you and not want children where whould the next generation of people in your country come from?

As for me I work 24/7 and don't have an ounce of trouble dropping everything when my Mother calls and needs something. I don't think twice about her living in my house as I consider it hers I just Pay the Rates and the like. I can get called over there for anything from something major to her wanting me to go On Line to look up an answer for a crossword puzzle though I do get a laugh when she attempts to insert Toner Cartridges into the Photocopier that she uses the wrong way and gets then stuck requiring the machine to be pulled apart to get it out without breaking anything.

I actually got a mate who is the Service Manager of Cannon here to look after her Photocopier and even he didn't believe me when I told him that I had to partly pull it apart to remove a new black toner cartridge because it was in the wrong way. I was just told that it couldn't be inserted that way so it was impossible to get it in. I did love the look of total disbelief on his face when he watched her push in another one without any effort and it couldn't be removed without pulling apart everything that I had to remove to get it out.

You are right in one of your opinions you can not expect a fresh out of college person to be able to pay money to their parents as they don't make anywhere near enough but that doesn't mean that they have to totally ignore their parents till they want something either. Get the picture?

But much more importantly I didn't believe in giving my children everything just because they wanted it. If they wanted something they had to work for it just like I have to and I don't expect people to give me things just because I want them I have to pay for what I want so I don't see this as a great idea to teach children to just ask for something and they get it, I don't think that teaches them a great way to live or what to expect from the Big Bad World when they eventually get out there and have to fend for themselves. I guess that's why so many now are not and are staying at home mooching off their parents while buying investment complexes or paying for overseas holidays rent free.

That idea just doesn't sit well with me either so my children had to pay their way or at least think that they where so they got an education on what would happen to them when they didn't do as was required of them. My sons wife doesn't have an idea about how to spend money properly she spent well over several K on a wedding dress and didn't bother to pay Rent or Registration on her car for 3 months and then thought that it was outrageous that she was served an eviction notice and that she got a Ticket from the Police for driving an unregistered car. If she had of hurt someone she would be paying off that stupid mistake for the rest of her life but to her paying her bills wasn't important as she wanted something else so all the other stuff could wait till she wanted to pay it.

That attitude drives me crazy as obviously she has never learnt how to deal with money and what needs doing with it. Got any idea of where I'm coming from yet?

Col

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that Col loves his kids. Probably more than many folks can fathom. What he doesn't do is go around claiming that he loves them and showing it with the words.

He has taken the hard route which involves teaching the hard lessons of life. I expect that his parents may have taken this route as well, from the sounds of it.

It is not clear, crabby, from your input here if you understand this aspect of it all. It is only in the last couple of decades that we, in the good ol' USofA, have decided that love needs to be stated and stated often since that is the only proper way to indicate love. We need to legislate protection as opposed to teaching good sense.

Who knows. It may be that the world will be a better place if you don't take the role of parent. Then again, maybe you, in your cynical stance, will have something invaluable to offer. That isn't for us to decide. But, please, if you choose to raise any kids, don't give them everything that you never had in your youth. Nobody ever appreciates free stuff. They just figure it is worth what they paid for it... nothing.

Here's a fun tangent... my sister's whole wedding was only a few thousand. And if I ever marry (marriage is another concept I'm fairly cynical about, but that's another story) I intend to follow her lead. Maybe I was lucky... my parents were always very good about making me pay for my own non-essentials, and my big sister was an excellent example of responsibility.

On that note, maybe I wasn't clear what I meant when I said I'd sacrifice everything. I meant, everything for what my child needs. I definitely understand the difference between that and spoiling a child with everything he or she wants.

That's very sad about the, um, "totally ignore their parents till they want something" part. Lucky me, again: I took off to college just a few towns over and still live very close. Every couple of weekends or so I head home to collect mail that's still sent there and have a chat. I'll admit It might be less than that if my parents weren't so anti-IM. But still, I enjoy a closeness to my parents that I never really had before leaving town.

As far as people following my lead and not having kids... I don't know. All I really know on that topic is how as IQ and income go up in a country, the birthrate slows down. I kind of suspect that a lot of people already think like me, and I just don't know enough of them. There will always be people who have kids for the sake of having kids and not really know why--that's the survival instinct. What's mildly depressing to me is that intelligent people, the ones who can think through and judge the validity of their instincts, who both recognize and reject that train of thought, eventually give in.

Another tangent: I once read an article by a conspiracy theorist who said the government is behind the dumbing down of America's schools (particularly the ineffectiveness and harm No Child Left Behind is causing) because more educated people have fewer babies--fewer sons to send to war, and fewer people willing to send their sons to war. Interesting, if a little far-fetched.

Dave, it's interesting you say that about something to offer with my cynical perspective. It never ceases to amaze me that about 2/3 of the people to whom I rant like this wind up saying that it sounds like I'd make a great mother, for exactly the reasons I think I'd be a bad one.

Some of you might be aware that I am originally from India. The culture is little bit different

My parents, coming from a middle-class background, raised three kids and paid all the educational and living expenses from their own pocket till we kids got the job or got married. My father's job provides him a pension, now that he has retired.

Maybe it was our lifestyle, but we kids never realized how rich or how poor we were. Parents never discussed "money" when we were young. When we asked for things, either we got it or did not get it. Kind of boolean - yes or no .

But as we grew older, we started realizing our financial situations - where did the money come from and how and where did it go.

As a housewife, my mom did all her best to take care of the house and kids and manage the budget. She was the rules-keeper of the house. I am still wary of upsetting her

As years went by, all the little things here and there made us realize the sacrifices and hard work they put in for us. This made us love & respect them. This does not mean we did not fight or there were no tense moments. Which family does not have?

Now, I think the onus is on me to take care of their needs in their old age. Of course I need to balance it with the needs of my kids. Well if my parents could do the balancing act, then so should I be able to do. No excuses. There will be conflicts, no doubt. Well that is how life goes.

just rambling....

In America, we call jam jam, and we call jelly jelly. Jam has seeds in it, jelly doesn't. That's why you have strawberry jam and grape jelly. Neither should be confused with preserves, which have actual chunks of the fruit in them.

Is that backwards from you gents down there or just more complicated? We don't have as many words for snow as eskimos do.

We also have a saying to help you remember the difference:
"Must be jelly, because jam don't shake like that!"

Ok, maybe that's not the purpose of it...

Jelly is something that is placed into a mold a sets generally with a lot of Gelatin in it and sometimes with chunks of fruit added.

What I find confusing is that all the Americans that I know seem to use Jam & Jelly as interchangeable words. Maybe they are just trying to confuse me which isn't hard.

But then again what the same people call Peanut Butter is by law here in Queensland at least called Peanut Paste. Though I understand that, that particular law isn't being enforced as heavily as it once used to be so the makers can save money on labels.

Anyway provided that the original intent was understood that's all that matters.

Col

You cannae throw pieces from a 20 story flat, 50,000 hungry weans'll testify tae that, be it something cheese or jeely, be it plain breid or pan, the odds against it reachin' earth are 99 tae wan.'

AS IN

"Old habit of throwing a sandwich down to children playing in the back court was also lost. (Piece = sandwich, weans, pronounced waynes, = children, but only on the west coast! jeely = fruit jelly or jam, plain breid = thick white bread with an inedible crust, pan = floppy white bread with all the taste and resilience of a J cloth.)"

Actually the scary thing is that I understood most of that I must be speaking to my Cousin's new Husband way to much as he's a Mad Scott who stands about 7 foot 28 inches and that's just across the chest.

Took about 12 months to understand him properly but now I don't have any problems. Now all I've got to do is make it worth while for them to use Skype to save the phone bills as they are currently in London working.

So TTM do I need to send someone up to have a quite word with you?

Col