Discussion on:

A dirge for CPAN

If you used CPAN, what did it have that other resources lack? Do you know of any equivalents for non-Perl languages?

J.Ja

If you consider TeX as a language, there is CTAN which predates CPAN.

... until last night, when another commenter said the same thing. Good looking out, and thanks!

J.Ja

Why not start a .NET version?

Maybe TechRepublic would be willing to host it?

One of the things that (in my opinion) makes CPAN so successful is the fact that everything on there is released under an Open Source licence (generally a GPL/Artistic combination like Perl itself). I'm not sure if that's in the rules, but it's certainly current practice.

I'd be interested to see if something similar could work in a community (like .Net or Java) where the Open Source ethos isn't so deeply embedded.

Maybe the Mono community have something like this already.

Dave...

Dave -

You are very correct in wondering if the .Net ecosystem is even close enough to the Open Source mindset to support an open repository of basic code libraries. My guess is no, for the following reasons:

* There is too much money in the .Net world right now.
* The folks who are really dedicated to Open Source (ie: developing something on their own time expressly for the purpose of open sourcing it) probably are not coding in .Net.
* Not too many people seem to write .Net code "just for the heck of it" like Perl, Ruby, Python, etc. coders. As a result, most .Net code is proprietary code written for an employer, who probably is not keen on open sourcing it.
* And the final killer: if you look at the CPAN stuff, the most useful items in there are libraries that fulfill basic "beyond the language" functionality, like CGI.pm. The .Net Framework (as well as the J2EE framework, for that matter, and many of the existing C/C++ libs) are so comprehensive, typically what is missing is a function call or a property on the existing framework, so the programmer just inherits the .Net or J2EE class, adds the one thing they need, and call it a day.

I also have to (still, sadly) question how much truly serious spadework type work gets done in .Net. For example, how many people are using .Net for serious math (intense graphics processing, weather prediction, geographical analysis, etc.), where a good math library would be needed?

To rephrase it, I beleive that the bulk of the folks who are working on code that would be generating widely reuable libraries that are not for functionality that the Framework already covers, have an investment in other languages (and often OS's) and are not too likely to be working in .Net.

Now, that being said, I could see it from the Mono community, if Mono wasn't nearly lifeless. Raise your hand if you have ever encountered an app that runs on Mono. I have, Paint.Net. The authors stated that the conversion to Mono was a PITA. At the end of the day, part of what makes the .Net Framework so useful is encapsulating the decades of Windows API development out there, code that is stable and tested. When you go to Mono, you lose enough functionality from the Framework to take away many of the reasons to work in .Net in the first place. I know for me, I like .Net for two reasons: the CLR, to let me choose the right language for the job, and the fairly comprehensive Framework. Cripple the Framework (ie Mono) and most .Net developers would not use .Net.

I know, it seems pretty off topic, but I think this is a big reason why we'll probably never see a .Net CPAN.

J.Ja

I've seen a few Mono apps out there. Off the top of my head, the only one that comes immediately to mind is Beagle, the desktop search application for Linux systems.

Of course, every single Mono app I've seen was something that I looked at for a few moments, said "Cool," and promptly ignored. I'm just not interested in the sorts of applications that are likely to get written for the Mono framework, I guess.

"CPAN is the ???Comprehensive Perl Archive Network,??? the collection of Perl libraries. As far as I know, no one ever even bothered to make something similar to it for Perl"

I think that statement contradicts itself. Probably a typo.

"Because Perl is an interpreted language"

Nope. Perl is compiled. Ok, so it's compiled each time you run the program, but it's compiled, not interpreted. There are important differences.

"Do you know of any equivalents for non-Perl languages?"

The idea for CPAN was shamelessly stolen from the TeX archive CTAN (http://www.ctan.org/).

Perl people have tried a number of times to take the CPAN idea to other languages that they use. The most successful one is probably the Javascript repository JSAN (http://openjsan.org/).

Dave...

"I think that statement contradicts itself. Probably a typo."

I guess he probably meant s/Perl/other languages/.

"Nope. Perl is compiled. Ok, so it's compiled each time you run the program, but it's compiled, not interpreted. There are important differences."

It's really a little of both. In fact, in some ways, it's similar to the way Java is run -- much as I cringe at the comparison. My understanding is that Perl source is compiled to something like a parse tree, which is then executed by the perl binary. Thus, it is JIT-compiled about halfway, then interpreted the rest of the way to execution goodness.

edit: I decided to use perldoc to find more information. perldoc perlcompile yields the following --

" Perl has always had a compiler: your source is compiled into an inter-
nal form (a parse tree) which is then optimized before being run."

Oh, and by the way, why call this a "dirge"? That's not a very flattering word. Did you mean "eulogy"?

... it is the right word. Another alternative I almost chose was "lament". A "dirge" is a mournful song. Since I like CPAN a lot, and miss working with it, in this case I am mourning the loss of CPAN and the lack of a similar tool as a regular part of my life today.

J.Ja

I don't know if there is a right word. "Ode" might be better. The problem with "dirge" is that it has a strong connotation: that the subject is dead. I tuned in to see why you thought CPAN was dead.

Take a look at Merriam Webster's thesaurus if you don't believe me. Every related word is connected to a funeral or mass.

I think the misunderstanding arises because he means that, for purposes of his professional life, CPAN may as well be dead -- and he misses it. He's not saying CPAN itself has died, though.

Thus, from his perspective, "dirge" is the correct term. You're viewing the use of the term from a less subjective perspective, and see CPAN as alive and well whether you're using it or not.

Another good point about CPAN - cpantesters. CPAN distributions contain tests and these test are executed on install and by cpantesters that tests it on many different platforms.

There is JSAN - similar attempt for JavaScript by Perl programmers.