Discussion on:

Sun's Java certifications: Are they worth the effort?

I've been developing with and teaching Java since 1996. On rare occasions, someone will ask if I am certified prior to giving me an assignment. I usually respond with, "Why should I waste my time and money to take a test to prove that I can do what I've been doing for the past 10 years?"

There's a big difference between saying someone is qualified to do something versus showing that they've already done it. I've worked with individuals who are "certified", but are very poor designer/developers. Expertise comes with experience and a certificate is no substitute.

The only persons I can see who might benefit from certifications would be those who have no experience and are looking for an entry-level position in the industry. If they are competing against newbies who have no certifications, that might give them an edge in getting that first job. Beyond that, experience and references are going to carry far more weight in making hiring decisions than some test result.

The bottom line is this: if you can't do the work, it doesn't matter what certifications you have. If you can, then your certifications don't matter.

I've known many people who dropped out of university and basically blame the university they visited for this happening to them (too 'theoretical'...duh!. it's like 'I quit playing waterpolo because I realised I don't like getting wet). They get good jobs until they reach fourty and reach the ceiling of opportunity (at least in the Netherlands).
I see the same with certifications. I've been in the IT industry since 1990 with a background in electronics and computer science and know MANY colleagues who THINK they are pretty good, just as I do/did. However, the certifications I did show me that there was still a lot I could improve on, and they also updated me with current practices and standards, which can be very confusing in the IT-industry as everything gets hyped in this particular area. The SUN certification programmes are not overly expensive and they do not demand irrelevant things (like: which colour coding should you use when using netbeans or something equally goofy), and they do offer others a means of evaluating your current state of expertise. If your experience already has got what it takes to follow the exam, they are also easy to make. But people DO flunk them, and not only because of the sorry excuses you hear after the exam is finished, but mainly because they simply could not make them.
I've experienced years in Dutch IT where every idiot who had at one point in their life touched a keyboard could call themselves an IT-pro and got away with it, and that background and training where considered irrelevant (consider a successful job application for surgeon on the grounds that you always watch ER...) and personally I am glad that a solid background, training and keeping up-to-date have recently become more important. It is the sign of a maturing industry. Not all certifications are good and worthwhile, but the popular ones are this for good reason.
There are many good IT-professionals without certifications and bad ones who have got one, but I do think that the percentages good-bad are very different on the non-certification side and the other.

keesp

We can't say that doing any certification is waste and we also dont compare the practical experience with certification because if we would like to implement something, definitely we need theory knowledge(Basic things).

Also, we don't know what exact things present in particular language like java,or .net etc.

if a person comes initial stage of development in java means, he didn't know all the things.By use of scjp, atleast he try to know something which is present in java.

so my conclusion is that, doing certification is not waste of money and time,instead it will boost up your skill level.

narayanan,
91-9894422789.

In 2002, I wrote an article about the value of certifications (see http://www.rtek2000.com/Good/Why_we_have_to_fight_with_hypes.pdf). It is still viable. Read the article, and you'll understand who **actually** benefits from certifications.
Until 2007, I disregarded any additional cert (and I have a few) but I have decided to pass the CISSP exam. 4 months of heavy studying not to mention the cost of exam (one of the most expensive!), and after all I realized one more time: certification itself does not bring the value without a very particular experience that employer wants to see in addition to your cert.
Yes, the study itself is useful and expands the area of knowledge, but it stops there.
An old article proves it.

You can't replace years of experience with a certification. The certification is only worthwhile for people with less experience. A lot of people (in general) get as many certifications as possible and then plaster them like NASCAR stickers all over their email signatures...and most often these are the people who don't actually possess the skill set to get the job done. You know the type...someone who knows a little about everything but not a whole lot about anything.

Hey, i was about to apply for graduate studies in universities...will this certification (SCJP) help me in anyway? Maybe to get an admit, or a research assistantship or a internship while I study?

Thanks.

Yep it may help you to catch the train and to be hired at an entry-level position. Good luck!

__
Peter

I have SCEA. For me it was not to much interesting to pass exams with less level: I didnt see any real value.
Employers may be hired me with taking into account it (and post-grad in CS), I dont know yet. Preparation to SCEA was very beneficial for structuring your architect (not just J2EE) knowledge base. I'd recommend to read materials from Sun SCEA guides even if you not going to pass it.

Alex

I did the SCJP in 2003. Now planning to take the SCJP 1.5. Its more for my own interest, than anything else. I dont think employers look at this, they put more weightage on project experience, and rightly so. Just knowing the java language does not mean anything. It really does not prove one will be able to apply this java knowledge to a practical problem at hand.
Thanks

About knowledge of the Java language not being enough. Honestly I think you become sort of a human compiler studying for this test which is fine, but you still have to know all the other pieces that go along with Java (JUnit, Ant, etc.). Knowing the Java APIs is a good start, but that's it. I would say if you are considering the SCJP do it for yourself, certifications get a bad rap more often these days. And it seems only bad headhunters and newbie programmers rely heavily upon them. Too many scary stories about the genius who scored 100 percent on the certification exam, but has no clue how to develop a worthwhile solution or even package a solution and deploy it.

Sorry, but I must disagree with you, I think you're talking about the SCJP, if you passed the SCJD, SCBCD or SCEA you will notice the difference. these certifications required a good practical knowledge, not just the java code, not just the programming knowledge, if you'll try to pass these certifications you will need a lot of hours behind your keyword programming real applications.

When I hired new people I always prefer certified and experienced people over just experienced... just because somebody else worked out to test if they really know the knowledge I need, this will let me focus on the other things.

(btw, sorry if my english is not the best, I'm not an english speaker)

The question "are they worth the effort?" is subject to the kind of reward you are expecting once you get certified.

1. If you are doing it , so that you get past the initial screening for a job position . Then yes , Sun certification will definitely help.

As a J2EE practice Manager in my earlier job , I have never been without having a face to face interview with any candidate who had a Sun certification.

2. If you think by having a Sun certification you will automatically get hired , sorry to disappoint you that isn't the case. The only guarantee you have with a Sun Certification is that you will never get overlooked in the initial resume screening.

3. Knowledge well here it is a mixed bag. With the SCJP , SCWCD , SCDJWS the coverage is decent. This is specially true with the web services exam. With the SCEA --Sun certified Enterprise Architect , well this certification should really be name Sun Certified Application development architect. The area of Enterprise architecture is far more vast than what is covered in this exam. For instance the exam focuses on development design patterns. Architectural patterns , Architectural frameworks are never dealt with in the exam.

Architectural frameworks like TOGAF , FEAF , Zachman aren't even a bullet point in any of the section.

But again my SCEA certification gets me more open position inquiries than my peers.

BTW , I have the following certs : SCJP , SCWCD , SCDJWS , SCEA & CISSP.

>certification should really be name Sun >Certified Application development architect.
Yes, agree, it is really more about how to architect JEE based systems. But I remember a rather common for any kind of architecture topics such as those *ilities (scala-, reliab-, maintain-,extens-, security, performance etc).

>Architectural frameworks like TOGAF , FEAF , >Zachman aren't even a bullet point in any of >the section.
It is (and should be) out of scope this JEE certification.

You are right about the common architecture section ... I had forgotten about it .

But overall we all must agree the "enterprise" part of the certification isn't accurate

you did not noticed, did you?... (and you called yourself certified people)... the name Sun Certified "ENTERPRISE" Architect comes from Java "ENTERPRISE" Edition... they're certifying that you are a Java Enterprise Architect, so you can create an accurate application using J2EE servers,

Why they don't include all the patterns? and all the frameworks in the market? .... do you know all the patterns in the market? even if you know all the patterns do you really know if they are right to be applied for some problems? I don't know if you know it, but Sun have a group named Blueprints, they work very hard to "approve" and test some patterns in the J2EE environment, because of that they're certainly included in the exam.

The SCEA is not the best test, and will not say that you are the best in the field... they are just testing if you have the knowledge as an architect in the Java Field.

Btw, I know a lot of people who worked by 20 years in technology and they don't thing patterns are the solution for everything (I do), and if you ask them to build an ENTERPRISE application (with remoting by EJBs, Secured, etc) they will be reinventing the wheel.

I have not been in a lot of projects recently where Ive had to do a lot of designing from scratch. I am seeing a lot of projects where the project is in the maintenance or upgrade mode, so there isnt a lot of scope of using a lot of the knowledge that you could gain from learning for the certifications. And I also love the "aha" feeling of finally getting something, really getting something that I get when studying the theory. So, theres definitely a case for certifications even for programmers who probably can code( who knows! maybe someday *I* will actually need all those design patterns ive been reading about!)

Hi,
What are the mandatory certifications to be cleared before SCEA. OR what is the order of certification which will help to do SCEA .

Thanks
Kavi