This type of database does have it's advantages. It can help in all sorts of things like:
1. Suspect identification
2. Missing persons invesitigations
3. Tracking repeat offenders
4. It can even be used in determining an individuals location in perhaps a "live" setting geographically?
It also has some disadvantages. For instance:
1. Do we really need to be this monitored?
2. Is this monitoring at all times or in response to an criminal event?
3. How accurate is the data? Can it be corrupted or forged?
4. Will we be prejudged or profiled accurately by law enforcement officers who use this information?
This type of database opens the door to so many questions. We all know this has been is coming to our society for a long time. Perhaps it is needed to for a safe and secure society( "Chancellor Palpatine" ). It does conjure up images of Judge Dread where law enforcement is judge, jury and often executioner! Hopefully it will be well regulated. It would be a shame for it to be abused.
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after this is setup, the duplicates that "aren't supposed to occur" will show up.
These happen because the testing is NOT the complete human genome for each individual but tests of either markers or other indicators on the genes.
There are populations where a good # of individuals have indentical markers tested, meaning their genetic differences are NOT highlighted by the tests.
Hopefully when implemented these occurences will be monitored and new tests devised to ensure differentiation between people who show up as identical and obviously are NOT the same person.
Else we'll get people wrongly convicted based on no evidence other than similar DNA, and the associated likelyhood of somewhat near regional proximity. Just a note, this is rare but DOES occur.
These happen because the testing is NOT the complete human genome for each individual but tests of either markers or other indicators on the genes.
There are populations where a good # of individuals have indentical markers tested, meaning their genetic differences are NOT highlighted by the tests.
Hopefully when implemented these occurences will be monitored and new tests devised to ensure differentiation between people who show up as identical and obviously are NOT the same person.
Else we'll get people wrongly convicted based on no evidence other than similar DNA, and the associated likelyhood of somewhat near regional proximity. Just a note, this is rare but DOES occur.
This is a database, right? In a database you can have several( if not tons ) of entries, cells, forms, and extra information associated with an object, correct? The genome of an recorded individual would be an addition a voice recording, hair sample, finger print matching, retinal-scan, brain-scan, personal habits, and whatever saved parameters that are entered for the person to be recorded in the database, right?
Since you were worried about duplicates or even worse clones, correct? The information stored on an individual would be unique to them in some form or manner despite any convergence of similarities. For example, brain-scans and retinal scans might be different among twins and clones, correct? Therefore the solution lies there hidden in the details to be sorted and sifted through for a detective to filter out in an investigative search.
The weakness of the system is the ability to manipulate data of the individual. If this information is available for tampering then no one is secure and all results couldn't be trusted. On a fun note; you could absolve yourself of a crime or wipe out your existence for security purposes? You could even assume another. A system like this should be based on good intentions and made secure. Once you loose trust in those that oversee it; it's time to reevaluate a lot of things, yes?
Since you were worried about duplicates or even worse clones, correct? The information stored on an individual would be unique to them in some form or manner despite any convergence of similarities. For example, brain-scans and retinal scans might be different among twins and clones, correct? Therefore the solution lies there hidden in the details to be sorted and sifted through for a detective to filter out in an investigative search.
The weakness of the system is the ability to manipulate data of the individual. If this information is available for tampering then no one is secure and all results couldn't be trusted. On a fun note; you could absolve yourself of a crime or wipe out your existence for security purposes? You could even assume another. A system like this should be based on good intentions and made secure. Once you loose trust in those that oversee it; it's time to reevaluate a lot of things, yes?
they would have other info such as fingerprints on file for individuals. and this kind of db is the only way to prevent some kinds of fraud. e.g. when the Los Angeles welfare dept started doing some biometrics, applications went down 30% as many people applied under multiple names.
My problem is that IF DNA is only evidence they have (which is true in many cases) then it could convict someone wrongly.
And as usual, safegards need to be done to keep the error rate in the database (DNA, fingerprints, eyescans, etc attrributed tothe wrong person either negligently or intentionally for various criminal, or spy community purpose).
My problem is that IF DNA is only evidence they have (which is true in many cases) then it could convict someone wrongly.
And as usual, safegards need to be done to keep the error rate in the database (DNA, fingerprints, eyescans, etc attrributed tothe wrong person either negligently or intentionally for various criminal, or spy community purpose).
Let's imagine that we were some officials who were just tasked with the creation of the "Official U.S.A People's Database"( it's a terrible fictional name. Please bear with it for now? ). Anyways, how would we start?
1.) Do we find a tried and tested db like Oracle? Or another?
2.) How will it be managed? (specially selected Database Admins with secure governement backgrounds or talented well-known cutting edge db admins and testers or both? )
3.) How long will the project be? ( start time and completion, months, years, more? )
4.) How much will it cost? ( hardware, software, salaries, electricity, man hours, etc. )
5.) What will be the general saved parameters? ( DNA, voice, finger-prints, hair, retinal, brain, or other valid unique individual identifications? )
6.) How to keep it maintained accurately and backed up? ( Storage, Datacenters, power, redundant power, other redundancies, physical safety, virtual safety, protocols to be followed by staff, and general record and house keeping of the db. )
7.) Who would have access to the db under what types of permissions? ( The Government, The General Public, yourself, your wife, Creditors/Debtors, State and Local Authorities )
I could probably go on and on with a major rant. I'm feeling creative tonight, LOL! I'm sure these issues have been discussed already by the "governing powers" in coffee fueled meetings. I think the holdup is basically "cost". At this time the cost of screening people and the legal headaches attached aren't justified. However since we are in a war and can be scared into anything; such a project could actually be done relatively quickly like say a year or two depending on how severe the "fake threat" was? ( Remember the different colored alerts we used to have? ). Anyways, this type of national database will be launched under the guise of national security. Citizens would never push it without serious incentives. It's just a matter of time. Our kids on the other hands will think of this as normal without blinking an eye, huh?
1.) Do we find a tried and tested db like Oracle? Or another?
2.) How will it be managed? (specially selected Database Admins with secure governement backgrounds or talented well-known cutting edge db admins and testers or both? )
3.) How long will the project be? ( start time and completion, months, years, more? )
4.) How much will it cost? ( hardware, software, salaries, electricity, man hours, etc. )
5.) What will be the general saved parameters? ( DNA, voice, finger-prints, hair, retinal, brain, or other valid unique individual identifications? )
6.) How to keep it maintained accurately and backed up? ( Storage, Datacenters, power, redundant power, other redundancies, physical safety, virtual safety, protocols to be followed by staff, and general record and house keeping of the db. )
7.) Who would have access to the db under what types of permissions? ( The Government, The General Public, yourself, your wife, Creditors/Debtors, State and Local Authorities )
I could probably go on and on with a major rant. I'm feeling creative tonight, LOL! I'm sure these issues have been discussed already by the "governing powers" in coffee fueled meetings. I think the holdup is basically "cost". At this time the cost of screening people and the legal headaches attached aren't justified. However since we are in a war and can be scared into anything; such a project could actually be done relatively quickly like say a year or two depending on how severe the "fake threat" was? ( Remember the different colored alerts we used to have? ). Anyways, this type of national database will be launched under the guise of national security. Citizens would never push it without serious incentives. It's just a matter of time. Our kids on the other hands will think of this as normal without blinking an eye, huh?
1) what database? because run by govt, they will choose either the oldest / cruftiest version of some ancient database or some experimental database by a dot-bomb company that is the latest buzzword and will be phased out after swallowed up by a larger database vendor
2) how will it be managed? by someone's bosses' nephew who is hired because he 'knows something about computers'. It will be found out much later after all the qualified people have gotten ticked off and left that they need to hire consultants at great expense, and who give kickbacks to the hiring manager, to fix the mess.
They will be supplemented by freshers at an indian outsourcing company who have now been sub-outsourced because they are making now a decent salary, to a third, poorer, more rural country where the consultants have taken a one month course in the relevant technology. Triple translation of requirements will ensure the project goes on forever.
this will drag on indefinitely like the previous FBI datbase fiasco till congressional hearings make them cancel it.
3) how long will the project be? since no one in the govt ever read 'the mythical man month' or took project management courses (there will be those that did but they will be pressured to lie and alter the schedule), multiply the original duration estimated by a large integer.
4) how much will it cost? (see #3 multiply original est by large integer) also, it depends: are you talking about the original hardware / software that will be delivered as 'working', found to be unusuable and then scrapped, or the following systems that will be infinitely re-factored?
as an example the 'Boston Big Dig' which was originally estimated at $2.6 billion. Many years after the original completion date came and went, it was 'announced' that it was now finished today. at a cost of $14.8 billion. While it is probably 'not quite' finished still for quite a while, and the lawsuits will wind on for a while and add a bit more.
5) what will be the saved parameters? whatever they are, they will be found, well into the project, that they are either using the wrong ones or new ones need to be added at great expense, and that many of the records collected will therefore be partly useless. e.g. eye scans compress the data with an algorithm specific for only that eye scanner, and they will later need to add a new brand of eye scanner and the newbies who designed the database will not have taken that into account.
6) how to keep it maintained and backed up? it will be backed up on unencrypted media that will be 'lost' and/or unaccounted for after being given to storage company to transport. Interns will be given backup media like in Ohio, and will have it stolen from their car. For the 'good' backups, they will find later that no one ever tested restoring it when they get a problem and actually need to restore some of it.
7) who will have access to the db and under what conditions? Just your usual police and FBI who were originally intended to access it. And because of the failure of the FBI's new 'integrated' software, this database will become yet another 'standalone silo' of data that endless people will hack an integration of as consultants.
others who will have access: any hackers who can plant a trojan rootkit on an FBI field agent's laptop
anyone who is using unsecured wireless networks near the FBI HQ like the massive TJX breach.
any junkie who breaks into the agent's car and take the laptop
any black ops or self - serving ops hacker who wants to make your life like 'the Net' movie and delete your existance.
the future 'evil emperor' of the US and/ or 'World Gov' that takes over in the future.
See, there's nothing to worry about!!
2) how will it be managed? by someone's bosses' nephew who is hired because he 'knows something about computers'. It will be found out much later after all the qualified people have gotten ticked off and left that they need to hire consultants at great expense, and who give kickbacks to the hiring manager, to fix the mess.
They will be supplemented by freshers at an indian outsourcing company who have now been sub-outsourced because they are making now a decent salary, to a third, poorer, more rural country where the consultants have taken a one month course in the relevant technology. Triple translation of requirements will ensure the project goes on forever.
this will drag on indefinitely like the previous FBI datbase fiasco till congressional hearings make them cancel it.
3) how long will the project be? since no one in the govt ever read 'the mythical man month' or took project management courses (there will be those that did but they will be pressured to lie and alter the schedule), multiply the original duration estimated by a large integer.
4) how much will it cost? (see #3 multiply original est by large integer) also, it depends: are you talking about the original hardware / software that will be delivered as 'working', found to be unusuable and then scrapped, or the following systems that will be infinitely re-factored?
as an example the 'Boston Big Dig' which was originally estimated at $2.6 billion. Many years after the original completion date came and went, it was 'announced' that it was now finished today. at a cost of $14.8 billion. While it is probably 'not quite' finished still for quite a while, and the lawsuits will wind on for a while and add a bit more.
5) what will be the saved parameters? whatever they are, they will be found, well into the project, that they are either using the wrong ones or new ones need to be added at great expense, and that many of the records collected will therefore be partly useless. e.g. eye scans compress the data with an algorithm specific for only that eye scanner, and they will later need to add a new brand of eye scanner and the newbies who designed the database will not have taken that into account.
6) how to keep it maintained and backed up? it will be backed up on unencrypted media that will be 'lost' and/or unaccounted for after being given to storage company to transport. Interns will be given backup media like in Ohio, and will have it stolen from their car. For the 'good' backups, they will find later that no one ever tested restoring it when they get a problem and actually need to restore some of it.
7) who will have access to the db and under what conditions? Just your usual police and FBI who were originally intended to access it. And because of the failure of the FBI's new 'integrated' software, this database will become yet another 'standalone silo' of data that endless people will hack an integration of as consultants.
others who will have access: any hackers who can plant a trojan rootkit on an FBI field agent's laptop
anyone who is using unsecured wireless networks near the FBI HQ like the massive TJX breach.
any junkie who breaks into the agent's car and take the laptop
any black ops or self - serving ops hacker who wants to make your life like 'the Net' movie and delete your existance.
the future 'evil emperor' of the US and/ or 'World Gov' that takes over in the future.
See, there's nothing to worry about!!
That's a great reply, Dr. Dij. I think all of this will happen starting this year in 2008! Then the earth will experience a gradual dumming down in which those that breed the most dumb children will inherit the earth. This will make intelligent individuals appear pompous and faggy until one average joe from their past/our time convince them to water the fields with toilet water instead of gatorade thirst-quencher! ( taken from the movie - Idiocracy )
With weekly reports of notebooks "lost" while containing sensitive data and the Gov's own issues; Big business and the Gov hasn't been demonstrating a real solid grasp of information security as of late.
At the same time I can't help but ask; wait, they don't have one already? Can't they just grab a copy of the No Such Agency profiling database? Heck, it's not like Conspirators Instigators and Assassins works exclusively outside the US, they gotta have a heck of a database too. And these are just the branches of government that are known about.
At the same time I can't help but ask; wait, they don't have one already? Can't they just grab a copy of the No Such Agency profiling database? Heck, it's not like Conspirators Instigators and Assassins works exclusively outside the US, they gotta have a heck of a database too. And these are just the branches of government that are known about.
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-10878-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=195143&messageID=2017804
Reply when you're literate, jackass.
Reply when you're literate, jackass.
1. There are cases on record in which police and prosecutors have forged evidence, supposedly as reliable as finger print, to obtain convictions.
2. If you go this far why not include the typing patterns of people as well.
3. What stops the DB from being hacked and information altered or removed.
2. If you go this far why not include the typing patterns of people as well.
3. What stops the DB from being hacked and information altered or removed.
From my understand this has never been subject to proper Scientific Study. It is just something accepted as right because it's been used for so long that it can not be questioned in a Court.
I also remember a case where DNA evidence was the only evidence available where the Investigating Offers Manufactured DNA Evidence. In that case the police used a Blood Sample from the victim of an assault to attempt to convict the so called guilty party. On Appeal it was found that the So Called Indisputable DNA Evidence actually contained 2 DNA Samples. The accused was convicted on this evidence and on Appeal it was found that the Victim had a Blood Transfusion and the Blood Stains used to convict was only available after the transfusion was administered.
The problem here was that the DNA evidence was never questioned and just accepted as Fact.
Col
I also remember a case where DNA evidence was the only evidence available where the Investigating Offers Manufactured DNA Evidence. In that case the police used a Blood Sample from the victim of an assault to attempt to convict the so called guilty party. On Appeal it was found that the So Called Indisputable DNA Evidence actually contained 2 DNA Samples. The accused was convicted on this evidence and on Appeal it was found that the Victim had a Blood Transfusion and the Blood Stains used to convict was only available after the transfusion was administered.
The problem here was that the DNA evidence was never questioned and just accepted as Fact.
Col
A finger has between 500 and 5000 lines on it; in this country only 7 points of similarity are needed to assert that it is the same print. This seems, from a probabilistic view, to be a wide margin for error. On the other hand, the various, uhmm authorities, claim that in the history of fingerprinting there have never been two identical prints submitted by different people. I don't know what comparison method is used to assert that claim though.
The DNA issue you mentioned is spot on. At the risk of starting a hate campaign and flame war, this is also one of the things that happened in the OJ Simpson case. The difference is that he was found not guilty in the lower criminal court and guilty by the civil court and popular people court who did not have all the facts available to form an opinion, nor the sense to question what the news media presented or how.
Simply put, I am against all 'Big Brother' attempts and believe in maximum freedom for all people and strongly support questioning anything the government or news media tells you.
The DNA issue you mentioned is spot on. At the risk of starting a hate campaign and flame war, this is also one of the things that happened in the OJ Simpson case. The difference is that he was found not guilty in the lower criminal court and guilty by the civil court and popular people court who did not have all the facts available to form an opinion, nor the sense to question what the news media presented or how.
Simply put, I am against all 'Big Brother' attempts and believe in maximum freedom for all people and strongly support questioning anything the government or news media tells you.
It will be a,"Big Brother" thing run by the Government. But, if you don't have anything to hide, so what. You are on camera a bunch of times every day. Your eMail is scanned, they have access to any electronic data anyone has about you. There may be info about you posted on the internet about you that you don't even know about. If it assists in keeping our kids safe, use it. And the thing about government programmers, there are som very good dedicated ones out there. I've seen the results of there work, I really would worry about that part. And if you are better at it, help out!
you > "if you don't have anything to hide, so what."
Unfortunately, this is a line used to get you to allow a warrant less search of your car, back yard, house, secured storage, server room, etc. and is used to trap the unwary who can not keep track of the 100,000's of laws on the books.
If you choose to so freely give up your constitutional right, power to you. I choose to try to keep mine in the face of sheeple.
Unfortunately, this is a line used to get you to allow a warrant less search of your car, back yard, house, secured storage, server room, etc. and is used to trap the unwary who can not keep track of the 100,000's of laws on the books.
If you choose to so freely give up your constitutional right, power to you. I choose to try to keep mine in the face of sheeple.
the same of others.
There are those of use who have an abiding interest in not being blind sheep.
There are those of use who have an abiding interest in not being blind sheep.
Everyone is crying about their rights, you sound like Rodney King. Take your head out of the sand.
Someone once told me when the Miranda Rights was enacted, "That the criminals now have more rights that the ordinary citizen". You know what? He was right.
BTW, what have you ever done for your country?
Someone once told me when the Miranda Rights was enacted, "That the criminals now have more rights that the ordinary citizen". You know what? He was right.
BTW, what have you ever done for your country?
It is not for you to decide who the rest of us shall trust.
If need be, I'll gladly exercise my 2nd Amendment Right to stop you from trampling on the others.
"He who would give up a small essential freedom for a little temporary security is a scoundrel, and deserves neither freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin
If need be, I'll gladly exercise my 2nd Amendment Right to stop you from trampling on the others.
"He who would give up a small essential freedom for a little temporary security is a scoundrel, and deserves neither freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin
You're not entitled to conduct surveillance of any kind without reasonable suspicion, and neither are your worthless friends, moron.
And the thing about government programmers, there are som very good dedicated ones out there. I've seen the results of there work, I really would worry about that part.
F7, moron.
And the thing about government programmers, there are som very good dedicated ones out there. I've seen the results of there work, I really would worry about that part.
F7, moron.
What a Brainiac, anyone with whom you disagree is a moron. then I guess I am. I guess you are an unemployed PhD. Well Dr. do you really think that the Government doesn't have any good programmers? Guess again, A.H.
Contact the Fleet and Material Support Office (FMSO) in Mechanicsberg Pa. or the Naval Ships Engineering Station (NAVSESS) in Philadelphia, to see what they do to keep you free and able to call people a moron. Grow up twit!
Contact the Fleet and Material Support Office (FMSO) in Mechanicsberg Pa. or the Naval Ships Engineering Station (NAVSESS) in Philadelphia, to see what they do to keep you free and able to call people a moron. Grow up twit!
But, if you don't have anything to hide, so what. You are on camera a bunch of times every day. Your eMail is scanned, they have access to any electronic data anyone has about you. There may be info about you posted on the internet about you that you don't even know about. If it assists in keeping our kids safe, use it.
If "keeping our kids safe" is invoked -- what? Nothing, that's what. All laws should protect life, liberty, and the right to free pursuit of happiness. Children may require special protection, which should be primarily the duty of their parents, not an excuse to legislate away my right to be free of unreasonable search & seizure, which does include surveillance without reasonable suspicion, absolutely.
And the thing about government programmers, there are som very good dedicated ones out there. I've seen the results of there work, I really would worry about that part. And if you are better at it, help out!
If you want my help you pay me.
If "keeping our kids safe" is invoked -- what? Nothing, that's what. All laws should protect life, liberty, and the right to free pursuit of happiness. Children may require special protection, which should be primarily the duty of their parents, not an excuse to legislate away my right to be free of unreasonable search & seizure, which does include surveillance without reasonable suspicion, absolutely.
And the thing about government programmers, there are som very good dedicated ones out there. I've seen the results of there work, I really would worry about that part. And if you are better at it, help out!
If you want my help you pay me.
Welcome to the few, the shamed, the mindless.
I'll bet there are a lot of paranoid people, criminals and Civil Liberty Lawyers thinking the same thing.
the continued gradual erosion of Civil Liberties.
Clearly you are not one of such.
Clearly you are not one of such.
Great 
While I can see the positive abilities here, I am still worried about allowing a corrupt and not-nearly-regulated-enough group of people having access to this. Now the government will have the fingerprints and dna of every citizen they want. This will give them the ability to frame anyone for anything that they want. This is just another move towards a police state
While I can see the positive abilities here, I am still worried about allowing a corrupt and not-nearly-regulated-enough group of people having access to this. Now the government will have the fingerprints and dna of every citizen they want. This will give them the ability to frame anyone for anything that they want. This is just another move towards a police state
after a while it will become cheap enuf to actually sequence your genome if they want to. At that point, they will store either an original sample or the digital sequence of it,
and be able to replicate this with PCR or with sequence synthesizer machines.
This way they will be able to frame you for something by planting your DNA at the scene.
e.g. the Startrek Enterprise episode where teh Vulcan high council frames that vulcan gal's mom for an embassy bombing by planting her cloned DNA on the bomb
and be able to replicate this with PCR or with sequence synthesizer machines.
This way they will be able to frame you for something by planting your DNA at the scene.
e.g. the Startrek Enterprise episode where teh Vulcan high council frames that vulcan gal's mom for an embassy bombing by planting her cloned DNA on the bomb
dudes some 18 year old got that techno stuff in his basemant right now
Wake-Up Sonja Thompson this biometric db is not about keeping Americans safe from terrorists and illegal immigration its about the total enslavement and control of the US citizen. ViVa the AMERO, the EURO and a CHIP population. KooL (O_o)
1) Sonja is not the author of the article; rather, she is a TR staff member whose blog hosted the post under discussion.
2) The author expressed no opinion re. the subject matter, but simply reported the facts as known to him.
To judge either of these people according to your approval or dis-approval of the topic reported on is both illogical and unwarranted.
2) The author expressed no opinion re. the subject matter, but simply reported the facts as known to him.
To judge either of these people according to your approval or dis-approval of the topic reported on is both illogical and unwarranted.
I was rolling up my sleeves after reading that original comment, but I see that you handled it nicely. Thanks for having my back.
deep7hr047, you are so HOLDSCHOOL, it's like you just came out from a Win95 nightmare... Wake up 8LU35CR33N it's 2008. One World Government is knocking at your door noob3r comment on the that instead 5m4r7-455 (O_o) & for you 9onja it's definitely the 420 times to roll up some leafs... Your SUCH a noob ((+_+))
How many times have you been told to strictly follow your doctor's orders?
u r ++ 1337 haXor
You are taunting the some of the most vocal proponents of freedom around here
You are taunting the some of the most vocal proponents of freedom around here
Somebody characterized the biometric FBI database as the krufiest etc. No it will be the best the NSA can come up with. Please note that the database was going to be a "shared" database. That includes the CIA, the DEA and the NSA etc. They want the best data they can get so it will be the best relational database you can imagine. The piece of legislation that enabled all this is the so-called "Patriot Act". Orwell's 1984 doesn't begin to cover the ways we will soon be covered by surveillance. In a few years, cheating on your taxes might be deemed a "terrorist act"!
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