Discussion on:

Bill Gates may have inadvertently revealed poor Vista sales

out of these PC shipped in the last year what percent decided to stick with XP when sold (over Vista) & how many opted for another non MS OS.

I'd also like to know how many were downgraded to XP as it's legal to do so with OEM MS OS.

We first try to get a computer with XP and if not possible, then we UPGRADE it to XP

On the rare occasion that the machine I want to buy, from the vendor that I like, only comes with Vista, I also UPGRADE it to XP.

There seems to be a problem with most systems now that are designed only for Vista where if you wanted to install XP instead you'd find there are no device drivers available. I know this for a fact to be the case for many major brand PCs and event some off-brand systems on the market now.

If you can find a system that comes with Vista and replace it with XP then I say go for it! But don't be surprised if none of the devices have drivers written for them.

the new Dell system had no XP drivers at all, only Vista and it was getting them really agro. Upgraded them to Kubuntu 7.10 and it all worked perfectly. Hmmm, makes you wonder about that there Windows systems.

Been there done that... Had been buying from a Top Ten
Vendor. We only buy XP, but had an exec who thought
that we needed another machine immediately (couldn't
wait the day or two that our supplier usually takes to ship
us a new one). He went to the usual PC Superstore and of
course came back with Vista.
Tried for the next two weeks to get a sound and video
driver from the PC manufacture and the component
makers. The PC maker even had models with the exact
same components, but the installs were scripted not to
work with dissimilar models and tech support would only
say download the ones on the web site.
Finally found another top five PC maker who used the
same components with XP, and I was able to get those
drivers to install.

Presently working with a large telecomm provider they have sent back HP laptop 3 times to the dealer as they were delivered with Vista. There was over 100 laptops in the Van each time they were rejected. Yes they would have an XP gold build put on it with all the bells and features of Vista except DRM, IE7, Desktop slow down,blah,blah,
Either the dealers do not want to put the effort to keep the customer happy or they are after bonuses to sell Vista.
15 non IT friends have bought laptops or PC's and had problems, 12 have opted to got to XP, 3 got so feed up they asked for they money back and compensation and later purchase Apple laptops

I did. I love my Mac.

Vista does not meet my needs. There is nothing wrong with insisting that your hardware and software meets your needs.

Buy a Mac and upgrade it with a dual-boot of Windows XP. Add a Logitec more-buttons-than-you-can-handle laser mouse and MS Natural keyboard and call it a day.

Then have virtual machines for Vista, Unbuntu, and Win98 (for all your still-great DOS games) and you're pretty much ready for anything

I'm buying a pc right now and the only piece of advice that I'm consistently getting is DON'T buy a vista.

I believe the long awaited software makes most of us feel excited. But it was only like seeing a latest debut Sport Car on the show room;
How frustrated it would be when you came to know that all the suspension were designed only for Super Highway use. Furthermore, you would not realize it until you drive it on the road!

you find the extremely low suspension just resulted in a few grands worth of damage to the transmission when it scrapped the minimal gutter trying to get in.

A very good analogy of Vista, keep up the good work.

I rather like your analogy also.

... My daughter had that happen when her (now divorced) husband traded her Mitsubishi - corners like it was on rails - 3000 GT for a Corvette. Scraped bottom every time she tried to get into our driveway, and it's flat!!!

I have said many times in the past, stop bying the buggy products and they will have to take note, lets see how the world holds out, you do not need to upgrade (downgrade).

I tred to load XP back into a pc with vista installed and it wouldn't let me.. I couldn't even remove the vista program. Even when I just the HD as a storage drive. I have a lot of software and hardware that won't work with Vista. That was my main problem. NOw I have one pc with Vista,3 with xp and I have been mainly using it. After everything is set up and you have the correct driver it is much faster than xp. I just had yo get used to it because a lot of it is not like xp. You just have to learn how it works. It's security is also better than xp. Stop listening to TV comercials for Mac and just learn how to use Vista. Microsft has made a lot of updates to the program as well. That have solved a number of problems. Also, I have never had Vista freeze up on me like XP does from time to time.. Thanks Guys Roy

upgraded to Kubuntu. Vista is where Linux was some years ago with less security and more issues and vulnerabilities. Also, Kubuntu is a lot cheaper, a damn sight cheaper.

If Vista was not so resource intensive it might have a chance, but it appears that for all the touted GUI features that the users have to get themselves a higher horsepower machine to do the same word processing and email and spreadsheets. Doesn't seem like any major improvement for all the money that will be spend.

XP could run on the hardware used for win2k without much of an issue - in fact, a friend of mine has a dual boot of XP pro and 2k on his desktop and the Xp runs faster and takes less memory than his 2k. If Vista could say that it would run leaner and faster than XP (and was naturally more secure), then they would have a better chance in achieving market penetration Not every small business will pony up with money for 64 bit dual processor machines for it's employees running Word, Excel, and email when they are accomplishing those tasks now with XP, AND all their current devices work with the XP.

No perceived value for the investment..

In my previous job, I had several occasions to hear from Microsoft MVPs about Vista & Office 2007. Other than the additional row & column capacities in Excel, there was not one "improvement" worth $5 to me.

Like many others have said previously, I will not be buying Vista machines until I am forced to. I have several home users that I service and rarely have I heard a positive comment about their Vista experience.
Cool GUI? Eyecandy? Not a big player when making purchasing decisions for my company. Maybe MS will realize this by the time Windows 7 debuts.

I get the feeling that Vista is going to be like ME, a stop gap before the next operating system. It has nice features but I don't think the frequent BSOD is my favourite. Maybe Service pack 1 will resolve some issues but I'm not holding my breath. I now regret buying a new Sony Vaio, a beautiful laptop ruined by a poor operating system.

You don't have to live with Vista; do you?

For example, I recently bought a bottom of the range Acer laptop that had Vista preloaded. It ran like glue and frankly, along with all the crap that Acer installs was unusable.

A quick format of the drive and PCLinuxOS installed, it now runs faster than Vista machines with twice the specification *and* I have leading edge "eye candy" in the shape of Compiz-Fusion for demonstration purposes.

Now, I understand that Linux is not every ones cup of tea, (though many more people should try it), but you could put XP on it couldn't you?

My sister, a tech writer, bought a Sony Vaio too & her comment about it is exactly the same as yours!

I was once a MS Technical support agent for Vista, that was until yesterday. Microsoft pulled out their contract and now whenever you want technical support for Vista you will be connecting to India. I cannot tell you how many times the clients would say, "oh thank God you speak english."
So without a doubt the customer satisfaction is going to a all time low but that doesn't seem to matter to BG. He only pays half of what he had to pay us Canadians...but shouldn't the customers come first?
So for all that didn't like Vista, your going to like it less when you need help and you will now get people who barely speak english...I still love my XP!!!

If you've ever had to call Dell or Computer Associates for support, you'd know what I mean. I have wasted more time trying to understand them than actually solving the technical issue at hand.

I have been recently reading a mystery novel written by an author who has always lived in India (and is well educated) which is set in India.

Really, it was culture shock to me, reading that novel. The usage of English in the novel, which I assume represents standard English in India, is different than UK/Canadian/Australian/US English...which are all pretty consistent. It's more than just different idioms in India.

I think that is a great part of the "not understanding" tech support in India problem. All my company's tech support is in India now and they are moving lots of other work there too (from Canada, Brazil, and Argentina as well as the US). Things that took hours now take days.

I hardly ever call company tech help anymore because they have trouble helping. The company actually does not want employees calling the help phone number at all and makes it difficult to get help that way. The ironic things is that when your problem is something that prevents you from connecting to the company web site (not to mention the company web help on their site) and your mail is not working, how do you get help if you cannot call on the phone? That happened to me. I was dead in the water for 4 days. Of course, the execs are completely isolated from the tech support problems of the ordinary wage-slave. They still get on-site, person sent to their office tech support.

as the syntax of English is very different to most other languages in the world. In English you say the small blue house, while most others says the small house blue. We say the running dog, others say the dog running. It comes a cross very often with people from the Indian sub-continent but you can usually make it out quite well. It just takes both sides a moment to process and correct to understand.

Several months ago I read somewhere that MS will FORCE people to use Vista because after a certain date, and it could be January or February 2008 (I forget) MS will not issue any more XP OEM licenses.

Perhaps someone else can confirm that.

they will likely be discontinuing XP from production, but there are many copies still out there to be found.

Forcing everyone to change to Vista would be moer like being disabled from XP and the only fix was to purchase a Vista license and run an upgrade...

or, when connecting to the winupdate svr it automatically installs Vista and then needs an activaion code with a link to purchase it...

MS aren't really forcing anyone to move to Vista by not making XP available. They're just refusing to allow them to continue to put XP on new systems. It's their hope the people will then move to Vista as they have no other choice for a MS Windows system. What they don't realise is that many people will move away from Windows instead of moving to Vista.

there are still many unused copies available. And like previous Win versions, probably will be for quite a few years. Although you would be taking your chances on genuine products.

and now use Kubuntu - works faster easier and less worries re MS sneaking in and stealing data.

IIRC when you buy an XP computer, the MS license is for that computer and no other. So you couldn't legally install that XP on your new computer even if you melted down the old one.

Don't have an EUL around to confirm this...

or an OEM version that you bought with a heatsink and fan from a supplier would be just fine.

With this being discussed, I am now going to have to find out when the XP product life-cycle is scheduled to end.

nothing set when first released for everything prior to Vista.

Decision announced by MS a couple of years after XP was first released - all versions of Windows will only be supported for ten years from date of first release.

Announced in late 2005 or early 2006 (can't remember which) no more support for Win 95, Win 98, Win 98SE, Win ME. Win XP to be supported to 2012.

When do I expect MS to end support for Win XP, late 2008 when they get really upset about the number of people refusing to take Vista on new machines.

I still hadn't bothered to find out for myself.
I do remember when they first announced the product life cycle. Of course, MS claimed all the old info and patches would still be available. I tend to agree with your prediction, adding that, at some point not too far off, MS is going to clean their servers, and dump anything that they feel is too old.

Find those TechNet CDs, pull anything off the servers you can now, and archive all of it. As you well know, DOS still lives.

They said they'd support Win 3.11 for several years after Win 95 came out. The method being to leave available a number of useful files for use with Win 3.11. One of the most useful being a file called 32S that when applied to a Win 3.11 system that was a 32 bit board and processor it would convert the win 3.11 16 bit software into a 32 bit OS. It worked very well.

Within a few months of Win 95 being released the 32bit win 3.11 file was not locatable on the MS system. They left it on the server, but removed all the outer layer links to it. If you knew the full URL from before you could still find it, but you couldn't go to their website and find it by a search or drilling down. I don't know if that is still the case, but that was the case from 1997 through to 2003 - the last time I checked their site for it.

I expect they'll do a similar thing with the support files for XP. Leave them there, but you can't find them via normal search methods.

I was just curious about the currently slated EOL. They kill a lot of things early, especially more or less unpopular software some people bought, but was lacking support in an unexpectedly short time.

MS does still have some odd and end available through FTP, even. They even misdirect you in there. But there is a humor section: press releases for the up-and coming Win 95.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1109

. . . I still can get SP4 and SP4 Update Roll-Up for Windows 2000. So?

Since Win 95 and Win NT, MS have included a thing in their EULA saying that the software is ONLY licenced for use on the computer you first put it on. However, many places, such as down here in Australia, that statement is NOT lawful and has already been trashed in the courts.

Essentially, I have a licenced copy of Windows I can put that on any computer I own, as long as the total number of working copies of that version of Windows on computers does NOT exceed the total number of licences I own. I got XP with a Compaq Laptop. If I wipe that system and put Linux on it, I then have a licenced copy of XP to install on another machine if I so wash.

The only problem with that is the versions you get with Dell, HP etc are cut back to specifically suit that machine and may not have the drivers to run essential parts of another computer. But that does NOT apply to any retail or OEM disks purchased - they will run and work on any machine that's XP compatible.

Transferring the licence between machines is legal in Australia, NZ, UK, Europe, Africa, and most of South America - not sure about Canada (they have some changes going on). Even many of the USA states allow you to legally transfer the licence. Because the EULA violates basic consumer trading laws about fair use of the goods bought.

I bought the goods to use on A computer, not a SPECIFIC computer. And the law courts support that view. The same as I can transfer tyres between cars if they fit.

MISCELLANEOUS
If you acquired this product in the United States, this EULA is governed by the laws of the State of Washington. If you acquired this product in Canada, this EULA is governed by the laws of the Province of Ontario, Canada. Each of the parties hereto irrevocably attorns to the jurisdiction of the courts of the Province of Ontario and further agrees to commence any litigation which may arise here under in the courts located in the Judicial District of York, Province of Ontario. If this product was acquired outside the United States, then local law may apply. Should you have any questions concerning this EULA, or if you desire to contact Microsoft for any reason, please contact Microsoft, or write: Microsoft Sales Information Center/One Microsoft Way/Redmond, WA 98052-6399.

jurisdictions laws make it unlawful for them to have clauses setting a jurisdiction outside the state of purchase. So the clause is then rendered invalid as it contravenes the consumer laws of the state of purchase. Anything placed in the EULA is only as valid as far as the local laws for the place of purchase support those statements. And MS have had a few costly cases of learning that is the way of things.

but I italicized the bit about how local law may apply if purchased outside of the States. I believe I've even seen mention of rights varying depending on the state you live in, inside the U.S., but I can't find a EULA containing that statement at this time.

If you take it to court, you may have all sorts of rights MS said you didn't have at all. Oops.

Several years ago I purchased a second-hand laptop which included a bulk-license copy of XP Pro. The license was for the company where the guy had worked. I have used that copy on several occasions.

Earlier this year I had a new computer built to guard myself against hardware obsolescence. I supplied this particular copy of XP and another bulk license copy I had obtained elsewhere.

When I picked up the computer, after boot-up there was a note saying that I might have an illegal copy of XP. The machine still worked, but this little note was annoying. So they had used the other copy of XP not realising there was any difference.

I took it back and had it reformatted and my own copy of XP installed. There was no note warning of possible illegal OS.

I made some enquiries and learnt that some bulk licenses, e.g. for schools, had an expiry date for the license.

I apparently am fortunate enough to have acquired a bulk license copy which has no expiry date.

Most of the bulk licence related crashes I've come across have been for systems sold through a major retail outlet I call Hardly Normal - I'm sure you can guess the real name.

Undoubtedly, Microsoft *is* trying to force Vista use through OEM's. It is also true, that inevitably at some point in the future, XP licences will become effectively extinct.

But in the real world, this wont stop people from using XP if they so wish. It will simply increase piracy versions in all but the largest organisations.

My experience of smaller companies, is they have no idea whether they comply with licensing, or not. In reality, they couldn't care less about it. All they know is they have a computer that does a job and it does it as well as it needs to. That's it folks! (where have I heard that before?)

Seriously though, licensing in smaller businesses is not an issue. I don't mean they purposely flout it, but it simply it isn't a priority.

understanding and skill to manage properly. What I've noticed around here is an increase by small business in the purchase of 'plain Jane' computers with requests to install Linux and WINE.