Discussion on:

What's better???An IT degree or tech certifications?

My boss hired me because I am young enough to be molded into what our company wants from an IT position like my own, but also because I don't have a degree and am mostly self-taught. I actually only walked in with experience and an internship. Now a year and a half after working here, they are willing to cover 80% of the cost of up to two certifications of my desire.

As my boss puts it "...in the type of IT work we do, someone with a degree would just be an over-educated idiot."

Don't get me wrong, I have friends who did the degree thing and I applaud them, but they are going to end up in management _of_ IT which generally does not require a "technical" person, but they at least understand the needs of a technical department which the chairpeople know little or nothing about - except what they want as a result.

I got the opportunity you have now twenty years ago.

The imporatnt point in terms of the degree vs certs question which can be argued from many differing points of view is neither one says you can do the job.

Take the certs, given you've already worked on the sharp end and you know the practical side of where, when and why a few more Hows in your toolbox is not going to hurt.

Unless you are going to do the degree part time, taking yourself out of the market aside from planning to switch careers isn't going to do you any good at all.

One thing I will say based on my own experience (no degree and no certs) is if you are going to go down the academic route, sooner is better than later.

I agree that:
a) you should take the certs to bolster your real-world / on the job experience.

b) that a lot of people with degrees or certs have wound up being useless or "over educated.

I have seen a large number of people who were book smart and could recite the microsoft answer from the test, but couldn't do a lick of troubleshooting even with that behind them.

I have also taken your path - I got in on the ground floor with no experience, no training and trained myself. I think to a certain extent that troubleshooting is a skill or an aptitude. It is very difficult to teach / train a poor troubleshooter and make them better.

I've taken the certifications (MCSE) and it really added to my knowledge of how things were "supposed to" work, and made me a much better troubleshooter.

I would recommend certification as it should add to your marketability. There are many companies where it will be a requirement for the job, and you do not want to shut yourself out of those opportunities. It will allow you to compete with people of similar skill sets who will have the paper to "prove it". And as we are probably on our way to a tougher job market, any extra creds you have will help you get what you want.

Admin jobs, no question, as a developer, only if that's the only way you can legitimately put a new buzzword/acronym on your resume.

You learn tens times as much doing one real application as you would doing a 100 lab examples.

I've thought about the degree having run into one or two muppets who thought I'd hidden under my desk for the last twenty years, then I re-engged my brain and realised they were too stupid to employ me properly anyway.

One pimp asked me which redbrick university I went to, academic snobbery at it's peak.

Good point...You certainly must know what you are doing. Early MCSE only required memorization. More recent Certs mean you actually have to know what you are doing. Certs like CCNA, etc are not all memorization questions. You have to have the Know how. People who only have book smarts will not have a job for long in reality. Certifications are great but Degrees last a life time. If you take a person with a cert and no experience and a person with a degree and no experience, I have seen the degree holder win out out most of the time. We are dealing with people who hire that look at credentials. Pre 2000 having only a cert was great. Times have changed. The competition requires more.

first
thank you about this good post..
then.. i think that the degree and cert like keys in database..
so the degree as th foreign key
and the cert like primary key ..so there is strong relation between the tow keys

Certs help you get to the specifics, while degrees help you get the big picture, I'll go for it.

Economics, not geekdom, decides what skills are in demand and are most sought after by employers (supply & demand is esp notable here). That's why a guy/gal with a Masters in computer science might--but might not--make more than the guy who's self-taught & without a college degree.

Having said that, in my experience as a s/w engineer, a degree gives one the necessary theoretical background in addition to a well-roundedness that an IT cert will never provide. IT certs are narrow in scope (for valid reasons), so they don't demonstrate any level of knowledge aside from a) prerequisites required to attain the cert, b) the specific knowledge related to the certification exam, and c) a willingness to seek out certifications pro-actively. Certs do provide evidence of knowledge, don't get me wrong; but they rarely if ever provide evidence of the sort of depth & breadth that college degrees demonstrate.

General theory, specialisation, hands-on

In my experience. Theory without practice, shows promise, practice without theory shows limits, and specialisation means you know nothing or enough to be dangerous about everything else.

The one thing I've learnt, is something I've never seen taught in formal education, that's how little I do know.

A truism in every walk of life but often ably and hilariously demonstrated in IT, assumption is the mother of all f'ups.

As they say... If you assume something you'll only end up making an ASS out of U and ME (ASS U ME)... :c)

Nebulous scope, ambiguous requirements, moving goalposts, changing environments, rapid technical advances and PR led flavour of the month this is new bollocks.

We don't need to shoot ourselves in the foot, there's a queue of well armed people just thirsting for the opportunity.

Tony - You are awesome... You should lecture on the IT circuit about working in the IT field. You seem to have a good grasp of the reality of working in IT and a healthy bag of colloquialisms to go along with it. I have enjoyed your posts on this topic.

I agree that you don't need a degree for many it jobs, but nowadays there so many ppl trying to get a good job, degrees and certificates prove that you are a hard worker. I believe for programming and database a 4 year degree is accepted as 3 or 4 years for experience. Also if you BS in IT, you also get minors in business.

Really ?

Not anymore, certainly !

I wouldn't advide anyone to step in the IT game, particularly coding without a degree, not to prove they work hard though. Simply to get past the first HR hurdle.

My da worked hard, he dug holes for a living. No one in HR asked him where he got his degree though.

There's a good deal of value in a CS style programming degree, learning how to apply it is hardest bit of all. Particulary finding ways to sell being allowed to.

1987, was when I finally gained my move into IT, and that was based on hobbies, desire, innate ability, and a great deal of domain knowledge

You were very lucky to get an internship from such an employer. As an intern he was able to give you an oportunity to prove yourself with little risk to the employer.

Now you are being given the oportunity to get some certifications, take advantage of them, they do not hurt to have. As far as what certifications to get, discuss this with your boss. Work with him to determine what certifications would be the best fit in the future of the company.

Next, get some quiet time and think about what and where you want your (professional) future to go. If your professional growth conicides with how your company will grow, then all is good to stay there. But if the company stays low tech and you are planning on earning more challenges and money than can be provided there, then you still might consider college along with the experience you will gain. A lot of places will take experience over a college degree, but it is often 10 years of experience in the specifice field they are looking for.

Remember, you will eventually be too experienced to be an intern.

Good luck in your future.

Were I you, I would get the certs and then look around at the mid-to-long-term growth potential in your company. I think the ceiling might not be very high there.

mrogers: As my boss puts it "...in the type of IT work we do, someone with a degree would just be an over-educated idiot."

Another way of looking at that is that your boss believes he's getting a bargain, and frames his flattery of you in such a way that would become an insult, if you increase your market value, in order to discourage you from pursuing what would be most financially advantageous to you. Whether or not he is such a manipulative prick, much of that analysis holds, regardless of his motives.

True story though....

Back in the day, if you didn't fit the mold, you got put in SE.

I applaud your initiative and what you have done to this point. I started out on the technical side as a programmer with an MIS degree and later received my MBA.

What you will need to ask yourself is "Can my job be done remotely by someone else?"

If that answer is yes and in most IT programming delivery cases it is, what are you going to fall back on? That is where the degree and the "IT Management" side of a degree comes in and will keep you employed.

You must mean just a coder.

I bet the guy who told you what to code still has his job.

There's a difference between being a "coder" and being a "programmer"

Just like there is a difference between being a "programmer" and a being a "software developer"

The other guy obviously didn't

We had a "software engineer." He was supposed to be this amazing programmer with tons of .Net knowledge.

He:
A) Didn't know what the Boyer-Moore Algorithm was
B) Didn't know that Blob was a real term
C) Couldn't code his way out of a wet paper bag

It was amazing he held onto his job for so long...

Here's the cold hard facts:
1) It's tough out there and competition is getting tougher all the time.
2) Degrees, certs, and real world experience are what seperates you from the pack. If you don't have them it will be the cut off that from even being allowed to interview.
3) It's easy to get a job that pays $25K-$35K range. When you're in your mid 40's and pulling a salary in the mid 60's putting all you eggs in one basket by relying on what one person says is NEVER a good idea.
4) You're only going to be the young guy for so long and there are more coming in behind you all the time that will do your job for less money.
5) Continue to educate yourself in all areas. The more feathers in your cap the better off you are.
6) A company that's committed to their employees WILL invest in them ways other than just a paycheck.

If you are struggling to compete technically now, you are dead in the water. You'll be either out performed or undercut.

2) The pack has Degrees, certs and experience, what separates you from the pack is attitude.

3) Salaries seemed a bit low to me, but our cost of living is a smidgeon higher. Also no one would give me a junior job even if I was prepared to take it, can't say I blame them either.

4) Oh yes if you don't leverage your experience, you are about to be hungry and celibate.

5) Continue to educate yourself in all areas. I thought we were talking about being educated by someone else, but if you are saying the bit of paper is not the end of learning process, then I cannot disagree.

6) A company that's committed to their employees WILL invest in them ways other than just a paycheck.

They certainly will. Or so I've heard anyway, Sheamus the leprechaun, assures me they do exist, and if they did, why of course they would.

Tip don't put your career in the hands of your employer, especially if they give you the impression that you can safely do so.

Oh the above are the cold hard facts of staying in tech, not sidestepping into managerment because the competition was a bit too good.....

WELL SAID!!! Very true indeed.
"3) It's easy to get a job that pays $25K-$35K range. When you're in your mid 40's and pulling a salary in the mid 60's putting all you eggs in one basket by relying on what one person says is NEVER a good idea.
4) You're only going to be the young guy for so long and there are more coming in behind you all the time that will do your job for less money.
5) Continue to educate yourself in all areas. The more feathers in your cap the better off you are."

My situation is very similar in the respects that I entered the field with almost zero knowledge and experience.

I was hired as a HIPAA Security Officer. No one at the company knew WHAT that position entailed much less myself. They only knew it needed someone that knew computers.

FYI, it is essentially a Network Admin/Security Specialist hybrid on the technical side.

My degree was in computer animation. I only knew basic networking and troubleshooting I learned on my own for the purposes of running my own home rendering farm. I was not at ALL prepared for this job.

What I didn't know what that this company of about 200 people and desktops spread across nine offices WAS running a home network. I have since moved us to a Windows Server 2003 environment and thaught myself basic server setup and administration, Active directory and Group Policy, ACLs, and ISA server setup and management as well as other random things. I'm working on figuring out how to VPN our offices together at the moment(but due to time contraints and heavy workload I am thinking of going with a hardware solution).

The problem is I'm lost at sea without a paddle(but I'm familiar with Windows and they weren't running Linux so thank god I have a boat at least). I know I need the theories and general information to more properly plan our network(s) and I plan on returning to college for a degree but in the meantime I NEED some certification or a continuing education course to help me be more confident about running this network while I take the time for that degree.

Any suggestions?

I have certifications, they get you working directly in IT, but definitely a degree is wanted for a management position.

Degrees speak to an applicant's longevity and stick-with-it-ness. Certifications speak to a candidates' focus and often (if they've pursued the certification on their own time) initiative.
However, I'd say that whatever makes you more confident during the application and interview process is what will work best for you. Really. Credentials get you past the HR person who's filtering the resumes (or not...one of my brothers, whose resume mentioned years of experience in Digital Signal Processing, once had a resume rejected because it didn't mention DSP).
But it's confidence that's going to create that powerful first impression, and confidence that's going to make your brain hitting the right notes during a grueling technical interview.
So whether your best job-getting asset is certification, a degree, experience, or just enthusiasm for playing with new technology, the first step in making it work for you is to be confident in it- even if you have to give yourself a little pep talk.
Stephen Lowe http://blogs.msdn.com/usisvde/
Disclaimer: Though I now work for MSFT as a Developer/Architect Evangelist, my opinions (and occasional errors) are my own.

I'm working on a Masters of IT Management degree with Charles Sturt University in Australia. (http://www.itmasters.com.au/)

Half the program is standard 'University' type subjects like ethics, management, HR, etc. -- while the other half is based on industry certifications.

The benefit for someone who already HAS the industry certifications is that you may be eligible for a Master's degree or Certificate in half the time.

As mentioned, this battle between Certs versus Degree has been debated ad-nausium, and the 'it depends' answer is about as good as we are likely to get.

Prior to starting the IT Masters program, I had already passed more than 40 certification exams over a 15 year period, but felt 'held back' because of the lack of a degree. Technically, I held the edge, but some companies even had the nerve to offer substantially less money JUST because of the lack of a degree -- even though the job was for a Microsoft Certified Trainer -- and had nothing whatsoever to any knowledge or skills the degree would have provided. (Again, thanks to our brilliant idiots in HR who somehow equate a degree with intelligence, or the ability to perform certain kinds of work.)

I agree with Marty. The quickest and smartest approach if you would like to have both is to get certified in a few areas. Many universities will award generous amounts of credits towards MCSE, CCNA and even some of the CompTIA certs. So do yourself a favor by certifying today and take a shortcut to the degree you've always wanted.

usually worth a flame or two, but basically I find myself in agreement.

Very depressing.

Ah well if this debate takes it's usual course someones bound to suggest I'm an incompetent cowardly slacker not fit to be employed in this shining example of the success of academia in the real world

Not saying you've said that by the way.

BTW, I'm new to posting around here but I'll gladly say whatever insult you would like hurled your way. A lot of my friends are masochits (which I think is WHY they're friends with me).

But on to the point...I like this "Use Certs to fast-track a degree" train of thought [Please read my first on this thread to know where I'm coming from]. What might be some suggestions as the best certs to get to accomplish this efficiently? A "more-bang-for-my-buck" certification as far as college credits go if you will.

Contact your college, set up an appointment and talk to an academic advisor and see if/what certs mean credits.

When the arguement is won by the Pro Cert's side.

A degree is much longer lasting than a Cert. Cert's validation change from one version of software to the next. My Novell 3.11 cert is really worth a lot today.

What I really like is the guy that takes the two week course and passes a simple test and then walks
around calling himself a network engineer.

Only those kind of network engineers argue against
degrees.

What I really like is a guy who spends four years with his head in a book learning the theory behind stuff we stopped doing six years ago when he finished, calling himself a Network Engineer.

Only those kind of network engineers argue against certs.

ROFLMAO

Sorry couldn't resist....

I can honestly say that I first went for the MCSE certification track (NT 4.0) My MCSE is worthless now - I haven't updated it. MCSE is a great deal less money - for the short term. However, you are BOTH mistaken. And don't start lambasting me in ignorance either. You NEED A DEGREE to get into management. You NEED CERTS to get technical positions. The true answer would be both. Now before you start whining about the degree is merely a bookworm issue - you had better swallow this pill - I have worked in this field for 27 years... That's right 27 years... I was trained as a Novell Admin, A+, MCSE (NT 4.0), and I was a programmer/analyst, Database Administrator/designer, network designer, project manager, I.S. Director, and various other positions. Getting into management positions - I am talking just getting the interview - REQUIRES a DEGREE!!! However, if you look at most positions - you will also see (MCSE preferred, or Cisco Certification desired.) This is in the actual job description. So... as painful as it sounds, to be really "secure" you need both. Unless management is not your bag. Most positions I have read about offer experience in lieu of education - except management.

That said, insulting one another (degree/non-degree people) is a bit like tearing down our profession. I have often found that those who rail against the degree - don't have one - and conversely those who rail against the certs - don't have them. It is a celf centered reflex to defend "our" position which is often based on ignorance. (The same holds true in any of our sub areas - Linux/Mac/Windows debates, and the like.)

and develop a sense of f'ing humour isn't it.

Or perhaps, think before you open your stupid gob.



Sorry I couln't resist.

This was a clue as to my intent to the guy promoting degrees.

I'd give you one as well, but you'd probably miss it again.

Lot of wases in your career, did you keep getting found out?

I've been in full time employment since 1981, in IT continuously since 1987.

You know as a manager when you are f'ed and you need some serious committed and experienced technical person to pull your ass out of the fire?

Well I suggest you make with the apalogies, at the moment I wouldn't even p1ss on you.

You just proved the point.

Those that don't have them, always try to
put degrees down.

If you have both, you don't have to be on a
side. But, if you just have certs.
Your just like your comment protrays.

It's true, some of the things that I had in college aren't up to date, but it's like an
Electrical Engineering professor I had said,

"We're not here to fill your head with a lot
of knowledge that becomes outdated in the short term, we're here to build the problem
solving tools in you so you can handle what comes in the long term."

Certs don't teach skill, just useless knowledge!

Here's me thinking it was another blinkered fool and it was the same one.

Oh well even clever people make mistakes.

Right back to business.

All I did was reverse your stupid generalisation, into another equally stupid assertion.

If you find the commonality somewhat offensive, worry not. That was my intent.

You sit there waving your piece of paper that says you are more fit for a role than anyone else. You might be fit enough, you might not.
I'd say exactly the same thing to anyone with a different piece of paper from some other place.

I've worked with people with either or even both, some were competent, even brilliant, others were blithering idiots.

I judge them by what they said they wanted to achieve, how they attempted to do so and the result.
The piece of paper, wipe your arse with it.

It means precisely nothing until you use what it claims you can do. Once you've done that it's irrelevant.

The only reason I might be intereested in what you did at school, is because I'm interested in your potential outside of it.

So if you want me to bear you in mind for a junior devoloper role, then you may proceed to give me chapter and verse about what you got out of it. Don't tell me what it was meant to do, I don't give a crap. Tell me what YOU learnt and I will judge whether it has any value to ME.

Initial impression from you first asinine post, is poor. I'm giving you a second chance because basically I am nice guy.

Sorry could n't ressist.

P.S. The above is a clue !

Dolt

...that it's holding them back.

To have a rewarding career, you really need both a degree AND the certifications. Get the degree first and it will really open doors for you. Then get the certs in areas that interest you.

It would be more correct to say without them you will be blocked from having a rewarding career.

For those who want a rewarding and successful career, don't wait for doors to open. Kick the in, climb through the window... Unless you think those magazines in the waiting room of life are very informative and emotionally uplifting.


Success is 90% attitude, not education.

now he thinks you have to risk getting arrested for breaking and entering to get ahead.

Find the office party video, a discrete email...

Whether you get the paper or not, what sort of paper it is, it won't do f'all good if you just wave it feebly in the background squeaking hello, hoping someone will notice.

I ain't never seen no piece of paper open a door, be demanded on entry yes.

Couldn't help wading in to agree with this one - as someone with neither certs or a degree - I started at the bottom, and worked damned hard and pushed my way up. Picked up a couple of minor certs on the way (Progress, and Checkpoint Firewalls) but nothing universal like the MS & Cisco ones. I'm thinking now about doing some - or maybe even a degree - but this is more from interest!