Discussion on:

Vista SP1 causes reduced functionality for some programs

Vista has certainly had its share of troubles this week. From an SP1
prerequisite update causing problems for some users to the discovery of
reduced functionality of some programs.

With SP1 as the litmus test for many businesses to roll out Vista, do you
think that these recent troubles will cause a delay in plans? Or do you
consider this to be inconsequential?

Who remembers XP SP2??? Talk about issues! How many systems crashed because of it? Compare that to how many systems currently use XP with SP2... It is just the SP BETA for Vista. It was put out to see what issues it would have. Same with Vista Beta, RC0, RC1, etc.

I have installed the beta of SP1 on my Vista box and it has improved performance greatly! Funny how we never hear about the computers that get improved...but let a computer slow down or crash and it is front page.

That's the media for you...

This constant call for perfection is rediculous. I love my Vista and use it for up to 18 hours a day and seldom if ever turn it off or have a need to reboot the system.

I like to think I am pretty familiar with most of the software out there but I have never heard of much of the software listed as losing functionality in the KB report.

I don't doubt that MS could be more responsive.. I.E. for Adobe CS2 users who can't start up their illustrator in Vista but then again it could be Adobe using this as a ploy to get people to spend a thousand bucks to upgrade to CS3. MS and ADOBE are pointing the fingers at each other for the problem.

So, I found a word-around and now all is well in Vista land and I can still look forward to them making it even better.

the way to stop any probs is to install update 937287 first then install other updates. this will stop the continuous reboot prob

Micro$oft botched the job from the start, apparently believing that the desktop ownership of Windows XP and 2000 is not enough. They released Vista as over-promised and under-delivered. I have touched it and as a professional cannot stand it in the least. OS/2 Warp is better in some ways. If I put Vista onto the systems used by my clients, I am certain I would drive them out of business.

SUPPORT XP!!!!!

More secure than XP, and can use more than 4Gb of RAM!

And I haven't had near the trouble finding drivers for it.

identical to the server 2003 base, (surprise surprise). Most vendors have 64 bit drivers out now as well. XP 64 is a good choice for an OS. AND you can actually run exchange 2008 off of it =)

I find out every day how much more stable and secure XP x64 really is. When I found out it was literally written off the Server 2003 base; that is when I started finding drivers for it.

It is going to be a real corker trying to pick my next machine, because I have to support Vista clients but want to use XP x64 instead!

and XP64 is not officially supported. I did install the beta of exchange 2007 on XP64, but then again, it was also available in 32 but uynlike the final release....

I would also guess that on XP64 you would by default be limited to 10 open net connections. Maybe good....

Anyway, overall I was wrong about the Exchange on XP64, I very much doubt the released version would even install...

But your right, XP64 is a good OS. Stable, good performance on 32 bit apps, and native 64 bit code... no 3 Gb ram limit...

Server 2003. Or at least that is the meaning I took from it as I read it very rapidly, (as usual) and just made assumptions off the cuff; which always gets me in trouble; but I never learn!

At least the news about Server 2008 looks very encouraging; but I also wished I could avoid Vista altogether and just go straight to Windows 7. Customers won't let me get away with that though!

We have a handful of Vista machines however the majority of machines are still good old XP. I'm in no real hurry for Vista SP1 but really would like to get XP SP3. With Server 2008 out there are some features I'd like to use (such as TS Gateway) however I will have to wait another month for SP3 before I can make use of 2008. Since Vista SP1 & XP SP3 are required for some functionality in Server 2008, you would think MS would release them at the same time. I guess they break too many other things.

nt

Of course I thnk there will be a delay. Businesses are in business to make money so their biggest focus is usually their bottom line. In the event SP1 is installed and it causes problems, it's going to affect their bottom line. I also think there will be a delay because IT professionals are also on guard reguarding potential negative effects SP1 can cause. Although if you look at the situation again, there is money to be made by us too!

I'm only thinking of moving to Vista once they bring out SP2 for it ..... but who knows, maybe by then I've decided to move to uBuntu or even buy a MAC.

That would be called "Windows 7". Just like they fixed Win98 by making Win98SE, and customers had to pay for the privilege.

I have a new HP with vista(pas)home premium (beta in disguise?). The "HP programs" went south with the first Vista auto upgdate download. I've had problems with Sony, Adobe, Zone and other small programs due to vista's anti-social behaviour.I have had to hack around to find fixes for many of the Vista anti-social problems, and was looking forward to microsoft (aka BS-soft)fixing these problems. I am glad to know of the upcoming problems with SP1, which will surely magnify any problems I now have. I have decided to shut down the "auto" updates from vista(pas)until something beneficial comes from BSsoft. oh well just another disappointment from the folks at redmond.
(ps, grapevine has it that bill runs XP on his machines, smart man, I've got an XP also)
by jacontop2

I was going to point out that much of it was security
related. But, you stole my thunder by already covering it


Then I quickly thought to put a spin that MS did it
purposefully, and read along. And again, you stole my
thoughts and already covered it

So, now, does that mean you covered it well, or I am just
too slow?

in vista enterprise sp1 disables gpmc, so how is a system admin supposed to do the job? remote to a server whenever a gpo edit is needed or purposely NOT install sp1.

and others have mentioned xp sp3 should be released at same time, little known fact is it disables sip communications so LCS2005 users are out of luck.

Due to Vista inherent problems with backwards compatibility. I would not allow it to be installed in my organization. Until MS get the program right and working like XP or if they want to got the apple mac route. I would wait until SP2 before making any decisions about the software.

E.G why must I change my in house programs to stay in line with MS when they can and must stay inline with my requirements.

Right now, my clients (Fortune 500 Companies) are telling me they have no interest or intention to migrate to Vista. The discussion around SP1 was hopeful, but I am starting to hear that SP1 actually reinforces the idea that Vista is not practical in the Enterprise.
I remember the same issues migrating to Windows 95 and/or Windows NT 4.0 but they were far less pervasive. The wide deployment of Windows XP as the sole desktop OS, as opposed to 1995 when OS/2, NT 3.51 and various DOS implementations existed en masse, means that incompatibility with Windows XP is a non-starter. Many question the sense in such a painful migration to just another 32-bit OS and the lack of drivers and support for the 64-bit version means there is no true upgrade path.
What is needed is a clear, two-step migration to a 64-bit environment. With Windows 95 and NT 4.0, Microsoft strove for backwards compatibility making it much less painful and very sensible to make the move to a 32-bit OS. The pain is far greater with Vista; drivers don't work, the sound system is completely incompatible with XP devices, video drivers do not work and there is far too much emphasis on flashy effects and glitter that are ignored after two weeks.
Microsoft needs to focus strictly on compatibility issues in the Enterprise. The home and consumer markets will sort themselves out after a few ISV product cycles. Either that or abandon the concept of a single OS for home and office and roll out an intermediate, XP to Vista bridge for the Enterprise marketed as Windows Enterprise Workstation (no, the idea of Windows Workstation 2008 solves nothing as it has the same compatibility issues as Vista). The focus in the Enterprise is ALWAYS business continuity; work must continue and under the current version and SP1, Vista is not working.

With 73 posts already, I am not sure why I am doing this. But in the hope that somebody at Microsoft might read this, let me say this.
I like Microsoft products. But my organization does have a huge problem with Vista. We use a lot of Oracle applications with j-inits. They dont' work with Vista or IE7 (we have gotten some to work partially with IE 7 on XP) Then SP1 destroys the GPMC, a tool I use every day. There is more, but I won't go on.
My impression is Microsoft wants to ignore or cripple system administrations. Do they not realize that no organization will move to Vista unless the IT dept is behind the move, and if we can't use Vista to do our admin work, we will never get behind the move! And if our apps don't work, we CAN'T move to Vista.
At this point, my organization will move to Vista ONLY when all support is gone for XP, and maybe not even then.
Microsoft, please pay attention!!

tigger two
Sp1 helped fix some of the problems with Vista reliability, but has still left me with lots of dependability problems.
I still cannot use my vista for any dependable or critical work, it is still too flaky to consider it a viable replacement for XP. XP 64 bit is the way to go if you want to improve over XP-86, this should have been what Gigglesoft put out instead of "good ol vista".
I need an OS that can be productive, I've spent too much time on Vista already, reading, hacking, fixing, restoring to really find it useful for any serious work. My advice to Business is to stay with XP or upgrade to XP 64, vista is still a broken down "Pinto" lemon.
Darn vista, it's makin me cynical again...
thats my 2 bits
jaxon

because of video work I have felt it necessary to go beyond the 4Gb limit on RAM. But in my preliminary testing of XP x64, I found I preferred it to regular XP hands down for ANY application.

Vista has just robbed me of the applications that should have/could have been used on a superior system.

I haven't personally tested Vista because I can't afford the hard ware yet; but my clients are enough to prove to me I don't need to sniff the skunk's butt to tell you it stinks!

hey JCitizen
I hear you...I do Graphics and Music comp and master/mixing...I've lost two comps and a neat graphic on vista...
I've never/don't have that problem with my old XP...my coming concern is will dumbosoft try to vistagate XP with thier SP3...
Keep yor ears open...and eyes on the upgrader
Spread the good news...Business will be better off with XP...until the boys from monkeysoft do a major code overhaul on the scourge of cyberland...
thanks for the good words...
Keep on making them good videos..see you back at the bunkhouse.
jaxontop2

Is Vista worth the upgrade? I work for a company that sells hardware and services to smaller companies, and some of our hardware is going EOL. When we replace it, the new machines come pre-loaded with Vista. I am wondering if it is really going to have an impact on our service business (phones and field).

I guess time will tell. I am so used to reading rabid anti-Microsoft posts that it is impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff. Nearly all of it is opinion (invective, really) and so I just don't have a clear picture of its efficacy or potential impact. The "signal-to-noise" ratio is so high that it is nearly impossible to tell what the reality is.

That is one of the reasons I chose to do these two stories-
they both are "Microsoft direct" with links to pertinent
information in the Microsoft Knowledge Base.

I think that the important question that your company will
have to ask is first if there is any negative impact from
changing now and second if there is a definable benefit.

In general, business tends to wait to adopt a new OS until
the stability of the first SP is validated. Vista's SP1 is
nearing release and some flaws are to be expected. But
knowing what they are can be helpful- a small business
using Zone for instance, now also knows that they will
need to update that installation if they move to Vista SP1.

I would hope that the discussion not become an anti-
Microsoft rant. That was never my intention in writing the
articles.

To say "some flaws are to be expected" in relation to a Service pack that makes some PCs go into a constant reboot routine is taking things too far.

Yes, some minor flaws can perhaps be tolerated but constant rebooting is hardly minor. A service pack, by definition in the software creation world, is meant to improve the product - not stop people using it.

My vote is, so far, don't roll out until you've fully tested it.

That not every circumstance can be tested for.

The update that caused the reboot issue wasn't the SP
itself but a prerequisite. When Microsoft became aware of
the problem, they pulled the Update out. The programs
impacted by the SP must have been a known issue
because Microsoft was able to link to fixes.

And I guess I do tend to think of all software as being
potentially flawed. At one time in my life I wrote the stuff
and learned the value of a good debugger!

"That not every circumstance can be tested for."

OK, but if you are rolling out a patch to your product on a global scale, you better damn well get closer than they did. Windows is becoming more and more like spaghetti...

have their OEM partners test on the machines that ship with Vista loaded? Do you have any idea what kind of testing they do, aside from public beta and RC testing?

I honestly respect your opinions and have enjoyed reading a lot of your posts for some time now, but seriously, how did you not expect this discussion to become just another Microsoft rant?

In my observation, most of TechRepublic (I would say about 80%)is nothing more than Microsoft bashing. There are so many haters here, I have often thought of cancelling my membership and going to a less bias source for information. We all know this is true, it just isn't said enough. I stay though, because I value most of the information I glean from the articles found a TR and I am not going to be "bullied" away.

I think the real problem these days is what I like to refer to as "IT laziness" (I have posted about this on many forums including the MS ITAC). I feel the problem is that supposed "IT professionsals" want everything to run smoothly with no issues. They want all the money and "glamour" (lets face it, we computer geeks are looked up to) but they don't want to (or often times can't) fix problems. This is a pipe dream at best. In the ever changing, ever evolving world of technology, no one can predict what will happen from one machine to another. Where would we be if our geek forefathers decided something just didn't work and they didn't want to fix it or learn from it or make it better? Would we still be DOS formatting?

This is the core of IT. When it breaks, we fix it. When it doesn't work right, we make it work right. It may take some time. It may take some hard work. But at the end of the day, we make it work. Who else is going to do it?

Like I said, IT laziness....

Here is what I posted a while ago when yet another round of "Vista is crap" was going around:

Yet another round of Vista and Microsoft bashing. Ahh...it's so refreshing. It doesn't get old at all.

Let's get real. Sure Vista has some problems. I'll be the first to admit I wasn't very happy with it when I first started playing with it. But then again, I can't think of a single OS that has come out that has been bug free. Does anyone remember XP's first days? How about Windows 98? And YES even the mighty MAC OS X has problems, although you never hear about them due to the overwhelming hatred for Windows.

Here's the thing though. In my Vista experience (i now own a ThinkPad T60p with Vista Ultimate installed) I have had problems, but instead of banging my head on the keyboard, screaming at my monitor, and raising my fist in the air cursing Gates' name, I calmly and collectively fixed my problems. Sure, some of them took some time, and of course, some of them required outside help, but they got fixed, and I am a much better Vista troubleshooter now than before. I am happy to say my Vista Ultimate runs beautifully. (yes, even my Cisco Vista VPN)

The truth of the matter is this: Vista isn't going away, Microsoft isn't going away, no matter how much you hate them. Instead of whining and moaning about every little problem Vista has, learn from them. Learn to troubleshoot and fix them. I appluad those who at least try Vista and try to learn it before totally trashing it on their favorite blogs.

Is Vista perfect? No, of course not. Are the problems with Vista unfixable? No again. Think of it this way, if every piece of software worked perfectly, if every scrap of hardware ran flawlessly, we ALL in the IT industry would be out of jobs! If you have chosen to be in the IT field as your career, then eventually you are going to have to fix stuff. If everytime something broke or didn't work right, we waved our hands and said "this is junk, this is crap", we would never get anywhere. Personally, I welcome the challenge. Bring on Server '08!

P.S. I'm sure I'll get burned for this post, but this is honestly how I feel so....FLAME ON!

An excellent post- and thank you for it!

To some extent there are growing pains with everything.
While I chose to not use Vista- I drive a Mac- I agree that
there is no such thing as flawless. My decision to go Mac
was more to do with what I wanted to be able to
accomplish than anything else.

That is the great strength today- there are a variety of
choices and we are slowly reaching the place of using the
option that best meets our needs. We can choose what
will get us to where we want to go.

Personally, I am interested in seeing what Microsoft's
analysis shows. The prerequisite update wasn't a global
issue so I would be interested in seeing what set of
circumstances caused it.

Richard, thank you for being direct and stating what needs to be stated. Not everything in this world is going to please everyone at the same time. As for IT laziness, I plan on being a part of the consulting community in the near future and helping those that don't want to take the time to understand the problem and fix it. As for the money, well, I would rather build relationships - they are more valuable than the dollar is right now. The money is the fruit of those relationships. Did Tigger Two get paid to write the post? Did you? No, both of you did it because of passion. I share that passion and I thank you for doing it. Send me a message anytime you want to "talk shop" And keep posting!

Thanks dinotech - we need more people like you, Tigger Two, and Richard here at TR.

I agree with you about the passion of helping those especially exhausted by the frustration of the IT reality world. I'm trying to help as many members who write me directly as I can, and I don't care about the pay/or lack of it.

a volunteer Army; they re-up ever tour but gripe every step of the way!

I bash Microsoft plenty, but it makes me a living and I won't forget that.

However I/we always look for alternatives; I think Redmond knows this more that is generally admitted. They should treat every day as their last, or they won't survive the market.

Besides Tech Republic is WAY better than ZDnet; if you like bashing, check out that site! WWHOOEE!!

I get tried of the Microsoft bashing also. Vista isn't perfect, if fact, no OS is perfect. Instead of all of this negative crap, why don't IT workers get certified in Vista? I'm taking 70-620 and 70-622 very soon so I can make some money off of all of this negative stuff. Vista isn't that difficult if you fix the issues that pop up and get some of these 3rd party venders to get THEIR act toghther. As you said, I remember Xp when it first came out and its issues. I really think people are making a big deal out of this and expect Vista to work perfect. If some of these folks don't like Microsoft products, why don't they download Linux and compile their own OS? That's what I tell the people where I work, download some open source and do your own and put your own damm name on it. Say what? are the answers I get.

in fact i'm quite a fan of vista. Combined with office 2007, i've rolled it out to about 12 of my 100 users. We're a service based business (property consultancy), and after a bit of testing, it turns out that the users themselves prefer vista, and it enables them to do more, quicker, and easier than XP. I'm not going to argue - they bring in the money and if it makes my job a little more challenging, then so be it. That's what i'm here for - to provide systems for the business to run on. It shouldn't matter that vista requires more support from IT at this stage.
And even to those who say vista is just pretty XP, who cares? Again, if the people doing the business want it, and it helps them (even just psychologically) then it's my job to provide it.

Interestingly, the users who have whined about vista are the ones who were essentially xp power-users, and the ones that really liked vista were the ones who have traditionally struggled with IT.

Richard made many good points. I am not an IT professional. I got Vista Home Premium pre-installed on my latest machine. I promised myself I would use it at least 90 days-- the same promise I made with XP. I didn't last that long. Pretty? Yes. New features? Quite a few and some are very useful-- IF I didn't already have a great security suite, a great disk management program, backup imaging software.

Most people have to upgrade their video cards, plug in a bunch of memory, buy various new hardware and get rid of software they love and know how to use in order to upgrade to Vista. None of the arguements I've read have convinced me to go back to Vista. I'll match my XP system with any Vista version out there. Since 2001 I have bought thousands of dollars of software and hardware to make my old PC what it is. XP does everything I need it to do (and of course you can make it as pretty as you please) Things XP lacks I have bought the top of the line software in that category and without fail it does a better job than the watered down features both Vista has and XP had when it was released.

I don't hate Microsoft. I just need to sit down on a regular basis and choose whether to spend an excessive amount of money for software with good-- not great-- features, having to buy new PC or do a major upgrade on my current system or do I wait and see what happens a little while down the road.

Microsoft is good at what they do-- not great but good. I stayed with Office 2003 rather than spend a load of cash on 2007-- which using the test version for 30 days had no features I cared to spend that kind of money for. I am not going to upgrade and pay big prices to pick up a couple features I already bought elsewhere to have the Microsoft bleeding edge technology. Maybe if they had put out a product with all the promises they said we were getting (like the new file system)I would have stuck it out the 90 days.

I would like to see an extension of Richards proposal. Those of you that spend endless posts telling XP users how great Vista is and how superior it is to XP please enjoy Vista and leave the rest of us alone. The hundreds of thousands or more users that have gone back to XP already know what they're missing and find it of little or no value.

People say remember all the problems we had with Windows 98? Did you forget something? 'Me' was a total waste of money and looking back most owners would probably agree with that assessment.

Maybe the Vista replacement will be a great OS. XP is supported until 2012 so us "backward folk" have plenty of time to wait for the next one.

And decided to go abck to XP for the sole reason that one game I like to play runs better on XP then on Vista. Thats it.. The only program I "had" to give up was an old DOS based game. But I installed a win98 VM in VMware and ahd that back, and it runs better that way then in XP compatibility, so I kept the VM and now use it with XP.

As far as my desktop goes, like you, I have a lot invested in making it run the way I like, doing what I like. I see no reason to upgrade to Vista (also, vist runs like poop on it, or at least the beta did, since its single core). But, as a nod to the Pro-Vista crowd, my only issue is Vista provides me no benefit at this point in time to justify the cost. I had some issues. I fixed them. My fiancee runs Vista trouble free (well now that I fixed an issue between Vista and cisco 871 with static NAT translations..she can now play WoW at my house...)
If I were to go out and buy a desktop today, I would try to get XP Pro on it, but it would not be a deal breaker. But, if shooting for Vista, I would need to adjust my hardware requirements.

I hated Vista Beta. Part of that wa sit was Beta.. Part was it ran very poorly on the machine it was on (AMD64 3200, 1.5 GB ram, ati x1600 agp). I ran Vista again after it had been out for a while, and found things I like (UAC is closer to what I would expect from an OS security and does not bother me in the least with what others refer to as "nagging". I WANT to know if something needs to escalate priveleges). As for Aero, I turned it off right away, so I can make no real comments other then for about 10 minutes, it looked smooth.

who is actually lazy here?
We users, hardware producers or microsoft?
It is normal to expect that product is working or even if it is not that it is fixed in reasonable time. It has been a year that product is out and it is not stable as yet not it looks to me it will be fixed for a while as problems are piling up.
I would not expect from experimental product to fully work. However if someone claims to be commercial product that is paid for being used and it is not actually usable this is I am afraid unacceptable. Same things I encountered with some of other MS software aside vista.
I believe this is main subject here.

I read your post on Vista, it talks about human nature, ie: bashing, complaining, name calling etc.
I read these blogs looking for clues and information, re: the problems I'm having with Vista.
I picked up a lot of information, and so did Nickelsoft, it was reflected in the postings on their website, and in the info sent with SP1 for all to understand that SP1 was re-edited to address the largest number of problems and complaints from their clients.
I believe all the griping and suggestions made an impact on what SP1 contained when it was finally released to the general public.
Musclesoft is a little like Ford in the early days when you purchased a Ford from him, you could get a model T in any color you wanted, as long as it was black.
That is why Dodge, Chevrolet, Packard etc: came into being, the Market wanted another choice, and finally got one.
What we need, is another choice or color of OS, that can compete with Makemesoft, and spread the griping and suggetions around a little more. Healty competition is what made the Auto industry the indispensible giant that it is.
And yes, they still build a few lemons once in while, but you have a choice in what to buy by listening to what others say about which models to stay away from, and which ones will blow the fenders off your neigbors Edsel.
Rant on, I'm listening and sometimes very entertained, I've read some very creative gripes and groans.
That's my little piece...

Hey Rick...I read your message to Tigger, are you referring to our "Chimp" forefathers....the first Geeks...
When they came across a banana that did not interface properly, or just hang, they quickly dumped it and grabbed another one..
If they had a bad bunch...they checked to see what the other geeks were doing, and quickly followed suit...
Lets face it we Geeks are still hacking on the same old banana, while we pay attention to what the other hackers are coming up with.
We Geeks are always looking for the ultimate bunch of banana's from Bananasoft.
Just a little pun in what gets lost searching for the forest, too many trees in the way...
jaxontop

Being system admin for my wife's home computer running XP was nearly a 2nd job for me. I have no idea how she managed to screw things up so much. Anyways, I upgraded her computer to Vista and I pretty much haven't had to fix any problems at all in 6 months. That's the plus side.

On the down side, I had to buy new hardware (e.g. printer, scanner) because the old equipment was not compatible and no updated drivers are available. Also, there are some programs that no longer run.

So just looking at my situation, the OS is definately more reliable. However, you will have extra costs because new equipment and software will need to be bought. If that's any help.

"The "signal-to-noise" ratio is so high that it is nearly impossible to tell what the reality is."

Truth be told, Vista, just like Mac, is not for everyone. Nothing inherently right or wrong with it, really. From what I understand, it is easy to fall in love with. The problem seems to be the 1st date....

If you want to enjoy a program on your TV or radio, signal is good and noise is bad. Therefore a high signal to noise ratio means you can enjoy the program.

If your favorite discussion board becomes tedious to read because it seems there is more heat than light, then the signal to noise ratio has gotten too low. Or if you prefer, you can say the heat-to-light ratio has gotten too high.

lol

and that experience has been problematic, but, I think Vista will work as a replacement for XP. Not an upgrade, but a replacement. On new hardware, Vista performs well (only if decent new hardware, brand new via c7? No way..). And in most cases it works as it should.
As for impact on support, it will either bu huge or only minimal, depending on how fast and often you send out Vista based machines. A few machines here and there, people will call in at first, then adjust. A lot at once, and a big influx of calls before people adjust... The real issue is going to be what gets broken next in the Vista cycle...

Great, just what we needed, LESS functionality. I notice that ZoneAlarm is on the list. The others, I could care less about, but having to go download a "latest" version of ANOTHER program just because MS released a patch is BS.