Discussion on:

Can a dress code prohibit body art?

In our company we have no strict policy about it, but when someone comes for a job interview we pay attention to it, and make it clear how we stand towards it.

My coworkers do not have a real problem with it, and i myself dont mind anyone who has aa tattoo or a piercing.
When meeting with customers, i do think it can pose problems, but here lies the line between hidable and unhidable tattoos/piercings/body mods...

Interesting point and i'm interested in how others think of this issue.

If you make it known that you don't hire people based on body art it's just a matter of time before you get sued.

It is NOT a prohibited form of discrimination.

How would you like to be forced to hire someone with gang tattoos on their face for example, to represent your retail store?

It goes without saying it would be biz-icidal.

Discrimination by itself is useful. You discriminate when you buy a car, pick a mate, etc.

With our system of justice, it doesn't matter who's right or wrong it's who has the better lawyer. Throw in an activist judge and who know what's going to happen.

Goggle: "lawsuit" + "dress code"

Some of results will amaze you.

Most state have at-will employment laws which means that a person can be fire for good reason, bad reason or no reason. The employee has the right to leave a post at will. Given that a lawyer is hard pressed to find leagal basis for either harm done which is the basis for a civil law suit.

I would move the discussion in the area where we can define if the position implies representing the company at a certain level, or is an ordinary one. In other words, the company might have some policies (for people representing the company outside) to comply to some standards in regards with their look, dress code, body art? For example, you can be an executive wearing a suit, but if your coiffure looks like hell, you cannot represent the company in some meetings, outside, or even inside; the damage could be enormous. But if you are an anonymous worker doing the same things, perhaps nobody would care, eventually your boss.

I agree that for some position a dress code, etc. should be in place and everybody should comply to it.

There are cultures in most businesses. If someone applied to work in a tattoo parlor and did not have a little ink showing, they may be discriminated against as well.

If the woman's religion was that important to her, she would not want to work in a place that surpresses that form of expression. Or am I missing something here?

I work in a fairly laid back organization, and I am thankful for that. I also have several tattoos, some of which would be clearly visible if I did not wear long sleeve shirts. While there is no policy (that I am aware of) prohibiting me from showing off my ink, I make a personal and professional decision NOT to. I am a representative of my company, and I choose to retain my professional appearance. However, if asked about tattoo's I will proudly say I have them. It is a form of self-expression. But just because I have them doesn't mean I flaunt them. Companies, and in turn employees, must maintain their professionalism at all times. If an employee refuses to hold themselves to company standards the solution is simple: they aren't an employee anymore.

I know many professional people that have tattoos, but the successful ones do not flaunt them. Say you're a Cisco sales rep. They don't care how knowledable you are, if you walk into a government facility, hospital, large business or the like they will not take you seriously with tats down your arm, oversized ear rings and an eyebrow stud. That person simply dosen't look professional like that. These people get branded sellouts unfortunately though by alot of their peers that don't have professional jobs. It's a shame really...I never have understood the whole "you have to be different just like me and my friends, or you are a sheep" mentality. I have a tat, but I don't need to show it off, get crazy piercings or dress any certain way to define who I am. I know who I am. And if I can't express myself without one of these "signs", then I need to take a long, hard look in the mirror. My personal dress code at the work is simply a means to an end...pay me, lol.

Everyone is a sheep. Many think they aren't sheep because they choose to be 'different'. But they are sheep still the same. They're just in smaller herds.

It's all too true.

Too true... I'm the same person no matter if I'm wearing a shirt and tie at work or sitting in front of the grill at home with a wife beater and a whiskey sour. If I have to dress a certain way or cover up my forearm at work to "fit in with the man"...so be it. I can live with it because I'm comfortable with who I am and I like to have the grill that's just a little bit nicer and the top shelf whiskey for my whiskey sour.

And just because I'm not peirced or tatooed doesn't mean that I don't have a non-standard view of reality.

Cada puesto de trabajo tiene unos requisitos, por ejemplo no puedes llevar piercing si eres bombero. Es logico que una compa??a quiera cuidar su imagen.

Si desde el primer d?a queda clara cual es la politica no debe haber problemas

?????????????????????

If you can't understand what a comment says, then just don't reply.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

It is a fallacy to think that everyone on the board only speaks
English. While we don't get many posts on other languages,
we do get some. That's when Babelfish can be a handy tool.

I agree completely. If you don't understand and won't use
Babelfish or similar translation tools, best to not reply.

I thought that was from the "Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy". I didn't know it was real.

I know you and knew you weren't being trollish- and your
opening gave me a chance to post the language
translator.

I use Bablefish a LOT. I understand most Latin based
SPOKEN language but am a total loser when it comes to
the written form. I have no clue if it's any language
outside of the Latin based languages. The only second
language that I am fluent in is ASL and we don't get much
call for that here. (ASL is American Sign Language).

I didn't see your post until after it was responded to.
Sorry on that one. Once I saw the Spanish post, I figured
that a translation would be a good thing.

Doug Adams coined the name. The web site adopted it since they serve the same function as the my fictitious fish.

The only stupid question is one not asked.

Derisive comments are one thing, total confusion is another.

It must be known from the first day of work

Each job has requirements, for example you cannot take
piercing if you are fireman. It is logico (logical) that a
company wants to take care of its image. If from the first day
it is clear as it is the politica (policy) must not have problems

In the dress code matter...I knew a situation in which two IT consultants very experimented, well-related, profesional to the boneetc... lost a project offer because the client perceived them as to tied and formal. I have met a very successful male CEO with an earring who use jeans on daily bases...
this is a lottery, almost like a game in which you have to show some cards and others are to hide.
In the girls body art matter... this is not the case of some fashion issue or dressing standard code, because what we?re dealing with here is a religious matter... the girl's church actually exist as legal entity and cult related community, and it has to be respected at all levels of her beliefs and values, if not, costco is looking like the nazi party in their begginings in germany. On the other side she has to show an authentic relationship, customs practice and filiation with this religion, otherwise is not a religion issue...

I have lost many opportunities in the past due to "long hair on men" being against dress code.

When I wear my hair long it is washed daily and generally kept in a pony tail during working hours and looks very nice.

And many Native Americans consider it a cultural norm.

Well groomed clean long hair is just an extension of the person, a part of the physical person like finger nails.

And yet there can be dress codes prohibiting it.

So body art, tatoos and piercings which are not a normal part of the human body should be able to be prohibited.

it really ticks me off when they will hire a person with visible tats and piercings
but not someone with well groomed long hair.

fred

I have long hair and often find myself in the same spot. Although I can easily hide my tattoos but the hair is always there.

I have made the decision to keep it. I don't want to work for a company so narrow minded and uptight. Granted this also means I will probably not work for one of the many financial companies in Boston.

It does mean that I will have to go above and beyond to maintain a professional appearance.

It's A CHOICE

I declined many job offers because after the interview they ask me to cut my hair. I told them "a short hair cut isn't gonna make me smarter or more efficient in my work. Don't judge a book for it cover."

Appearance has nothing to do with your abilities. But many people don't seem to know this, so to get a good job I'd cut my hair short...

Why would someone read a topic in English and choose to reply in Spanish (or any other language)? The poster obviously understands enough English to read the topic and respond intelligently, but chose to do so in a language different from the original post. Odd.

Reading a language is a lot easier than writing in it. One doesn't have to worry about spelling, grammer, word choice, etc.

Reading a language is a lot easier than writing in it. One doesn't have to worry about spelling, grammer, word choice, etc.

Ja, Das sollte vom Anfang bekannt sein, was die Kleid-Regeln sind. Leider werden sich einige "Aktivist"-Typen um einen Job bewerben, der wie H?lle dann aussieht, "Urteilsverm?gen" fordern. Wenn das die Bewerber-Meinung ist und sie T?towierungen haben, die ihren kompletten K?rper bedecken, will ich nicht mit ihnen an zwei Z?hlungen zuerst arbeiten, dass sie ihren Aktivismus auf Mitangestellten und Sekunde drehen k?nnen, dass sie wie Schei?e vor den Kunden aussehen.

Es gibt immer Idioten. Alles, das Sie tun k?nnen, soll sie und Hoffnung ignorieren sie weggehen

Yes, my college German finally pays off.
That and Babelfish.

Its a matter of professionalism, when your on the companys clock, no matter how high up or downlow you are in the organisation, your still reperesenting the company as the face to the masses, so to qualify for the job you have to 'adapt' to its needs.... after all youre working for them not the other way around. employment is not a right.

if you dont like the situation, get another job dude. perhaps in an environment that is more in tuning with your personal lifestyle.

You say that you "choose to retain my professional appearance".

Does that mean, by definition, that you consider your "ink" unprofessional?

I'm just asking...

When I see 'body art' or piercing, that brings to mind the wilder or rebellious mentality. It is difficult to take someone seriously or rely on their advice, help, et al if you view them as wild or rebellious. Hats I have a different perspective on because a person may need to wear a hat because of cancer treatments, not just religious beliefs. Someone who is representing a corporation should be clean cut and at their best, not looking like they belong at a road rally.

Hey,

I am amazed that there are still people in the world like you that base that much on another persons appearance.

I learned many years ago not to judge people based on their appearance. I have been working in the tech field for almost twenty years with over ten years at my current position.

I have not body art or modifications, but I have worked with many brilliant people that have had them.

I myself am not "Clean Cut", if you seen me walking down the street you would think I was a biker, long hair and beard type guy. I'm puzzled by why my appearance would keep you from taking me seriously or trusting my advice.

They are the lasting ones. You have only a moment to judge if a person is trustworthy or not. Here are a few articles you might want to read.

http://entrepreneurs.about.com/cs/marketing/a/uc051603a.htm

Partial Quote -
If you appear to be of comparable business or social level, you are considered suitable for further interaction.
If you appear to be of higher business or social status, you are admired and cultivated as a valuable contact.
If you appear to be of lower business or social standing, you are tolerated but kept at arm's length.
If you are in an interview situation, you can either appear to match the corporate culture or not, ultimately affecting the outcome.

http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/careerbytes/CBArticle.aspx?articleID=409&cbRecursionCnt=1&cbsid=44425ff7a612485c9eea7e3d1a302e95-257500069-RF-4&ns_siteid=ns_us_g_first_impressions

Partial quote -
Appearance
Like it or not, people make judgments on appearances, so it's important to arrive at the interview looking like a seasoned professional.
Cover any tattoos, and limit visible piercings to one in each earlobe.

By your snide tone, I would suggest you are trying to make a statement about prejudice. Keep in mind that we are talking about a business environment and professionals in such environment. What a person does with their appearance on their own time is their own business, but I expect those I interact with on the job to look professional. Period. Google it, you will find that the majority favors my position. So there are a lot of us still out there.

Mikey

What I have yet to have explained to me is how one's appearance affects the quality of their work.

By what you (and, by extension, your "majority") express here, you would rather have a well dressed incompetent than a long haired, bearded expert dressed in jeans and polo shirt.

"First impressions", right?

The other statement you make is that you "expect those I interact with on the job to look professional." Why? What possible difference does it make in their work. If you don't like the way they dress, that is *your* problem, not theirs. If they are doing their job and doing it well, what, exactly, is the problem. And if they aren't doing it well, they won't do it well whether they're wearing Wranglers or Guccis.

The way you look effects the way others interact with you.

If your looks hinder a positive, professional environment, then your performance will be limited.

If customers are not comfortable with you, they will not want to work with you.

This is not "their" problem, it is YOUR problem as you have become an obstacle in the success of the business.

If you don't have to interact with others, then it would not matter what you look like.

If you can not present a professional image, then what would make anyone think you could act professional in any other way? You have already shown that your "self expression" is more important that professional, so it is logical to expect that your self expression will go beyond simple body mutilations.

"The way you look effects (sp) the way others interact with you"

Right. It is THEIR interaction with me that presents the problem. THEY are the ones who are having the issue. THEY are the ones who making an unsupportable connection between dress and ability.

And none of this still explains how the way one dresses affects the way in which they do their job. As I pointed out elsewhere, I'd rather have an knowledgeable and precise accountant who has enough facial piercings to attract electromagnets than one in suit and tie who creates accounting irregularities and causes lawsuits.

because it is you that is being "non-standard" in a standardized industry. You blame others for your inability to blend into a team environment. If the department can not blend as a team, they will not be effective or efficient.

If you are doing work solo, sitting in a back room somewhere, provided you can get past the interview process, (and only then) does what your saying have any validity.

If you KNOW that people will have a problem with people that decide to be non-standard, then you have no one to blame but yourself when you are not accepted when you apply for that job that does have standards of conformity.

Your solution, go into business for yourself and hope you can find enough like-minded customers that will give you the chance to prove you can do the work in a professional manner. Will be hard to be professional when you refuse to look or act professional.

Good luck with that.

It's reasonable to assume that those who care about their appearance also care about the work they produce. There are exceptions, of course, but a large majority of those who maintain an unkempt appearance also have a less-than-ideal work ethic. It may be stereotypical, but it's too often true.

Everyone has the right to choose their appearance, but one must realize that that choice can also have unintended results.

Those same people who have a less-than-ideal work ethic? The ethic won't change because you dress them up.

An example: Say my task for the day is to create a new baseline image. The work I do will be the same whether I'm in suit and tie or jeans and sneakers. It will be the same image. My work (which is what I am here to do, ostensibly) will not be different.

The reason that this does not work as an explanation is that you are positing an assumption - that a (lack of care about appearance) and b (less than ideal work ethic/shoddy work) are connected - that they both spring from the same source.

What I continue to look for is someone to explain how clothes/body piercings/tattoos affect the quality of the work done.
What I am looking for is someone to explain how a (lack of care about appearance) CAUSES b (less than ideal work ethic/shoddy work).

See where I'm going?

Everyone can "see" where you are going, however you are refusing to allow the arguement (and a valid one) that the customer's relations with the business may be affected by Their perception.
If they feel that your most competant person (who happens to be the one outside of the "norm")is not professional, than indeed it can effect their desire to conduct business with that customer. Which in turn affects the business.
Rather than risk the bottom line many business models do not allow that opportunity to exist.

We're talking about dress codes. They're based on someone's (usually management's) view of the world.

Shakespeare said "Kings are not always wise. Sometimes they're just there."

Dress codes are an example of that.

Frank,

It does not matter what you look like...IF you are a "Techie" working in the back room running wires building servers, etc. It does matter what you look like if you are a customer service rep, or in the case cited earlier, a store clerk at Target. If you are in the public eye and you look like hell, no customer is going to want to deal with you and you won't make sales. Recall if you will, the old adage "The Customer is always right". If they don't buy you product the company doesn't make money, and goes out of business, they can't pay you if they are bankrupt. If you are a Service Rep, and the customers don't like your look, they won't ask for you to come back for repeat business, and again you got no income. Perception is reality and unless you are independently wealthy, others perceptions matter.

Lets say I manage a high-end retail store. And my router goes down. I expect anyone who services my store to come in looking professional, in a collared shirt. Not that some guy in ripped jeans can't service a router, but because I depend on my customers - and they expect when they come through the door to interact with clean, personable, professional people. And my profit depends on me providing that environment in which they are comfortable. Simple as that. It's actually not all about you. It's about the people you service. And by extension, the people they service.

.

The salient points are that you are free to choose your forms of self-expression, and companies are, within legal guidelines, free to decide whose appearance does and does not reflect the image they wish to project.

It really doesn't matter at all if your body art, piercings, fashion decisions, etc affect the quality of your work. {I don't think they do, others think they may reflect (not cause, no one' said that here) other value choices like work ethic.} What matters is what any given company is going to accept in terms of how they are viewed. Like it or not, you represent the company you work for, and for the most part they get to decide how you're going to look doing it.

It's not about fair...mostly because for every 1000 people, there are 1000 different interpretations of that word's meaning.

As a customer of a business, as you stated, it is my problem if I dislike the looks of an employee that I must interact with.

So, I take my problem, and my business, down the street to a competitor.

Now, the body mods are not just my problem. They have become the employer's problem as well.

It is at that point that an employer is entitled to require their employees to comply with a reasonable dress code that prevents customers being driven away because of their problem with the way an employee looks.

More simply, you have every right to look any way that you wish. It is my right to not have your looks hurt my business.

If you don't like it, start your own business.