Discussion on:

Israeli Intelligence Findings

I've notice alot of interesting political discussions on TR as of late. No matter whom I may have agreed or disagreed with, I have enjoyed these discussions strangely enough. So why not start another?

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/07/front2454174.1458333335.html

Israeli intelligence indicates that Iran has shipped Hamas missles that could potentially reach Tel Aviv. Hama has also been amassing troops and training said troops more intensively in the past few weeks. This could cause an already highly volitile situation to explode with worldwide ramifications. I personally don?t think the UN, US, Great Britain or any other entity can stand by and let this happen IF it becomes an extremely possible scenario. It is nothing short of an attempted extermination of the Jewish state if you ask me. I think great care needs to be taken with this matter. We (the US) need to focus our intelligence assets on this and find out the truth behind it so that we possibly negotiate a peaceful end. Although given Hamas? hatred of everyone that isn?t Hamas?I highly doubt peaceful negotiations are a viable solution. Neither is standing by watching them attack Isael.

On the other hand most of that region hates us, and they hate the Jewish state even more. If we stand up to defend them against overwhelming odds Other countries like Saudia Arabia may not look upon us in the same ?already not so friendly? way. We could lose what little ground we have to stand on in the middle east. Also, given Israel?s short fuse, they may solve the problem before the rest of the world has to deal with it. Just like when they pulled off one of the most difficult and talked about air strikes in history against Iraq:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera

That was viewed by many as the most well planned, well executed and well guarded military strikes in history.

I was just curious to see some of the TR opinions on this. Let the political flaming begin!

On the other hand most of that region hates us, and they hate the Jewish state even more. If we stand up to defend them against overwhelming odds Other countries like Saudia Arabia may not look upon us in the same ?already not so friendly? way.

Remember the last occurance of Isreal and Hamas. I remember seeing discussions or articles where the other Arab nations felt that the Hamas was the greater of the 2 evils, and that these Arab nations secretly wanted Isreal to put a beating on them.

Also, Saudia Arabia is not exactly in the pom pom waving section when it comes to Iran. Iran is considered a threat also with the instability they foster in the region...

No, I don't want to see another war between the Hamas and Isreal. If anything can be done to stop it before it starts, that would be a good thing. I also think that other Arab nations feel that way also.

I don't know how this can be done though, what influence if any that the United States has that could help this defuse.(grumble, moan, btch, complain.... I really can't spell).


Dan

One could view the Hamas is the virtual "skeleton in the closet" for Muslim nations.

As for defusing the situation. I don't think there is a fuse here to even be lit or extinguished. I think the c4 is planted and both sides are looking for detonator batteries.

I could care less about spelling...Lol, it's a forum not a spelling bee.

Isreal pulled out of Gaza under the idea that hostilities would be minimal, however they have increased dramatically. Since they pulled out of Gaza more than 2,000 rockets have been fired from Gaza into Israel, with mostly little retaliation.

Now, I think that Israel wants nothing more than to carpet bomb a few areas, however they have refrained from this and have been trying to keep it more peaceful, however they keep being pushed into the corner and aer forced to take action(s). On the other side of the fence, all they seem to want is to cause terror. It does not matter to whom, however for now they have decided it is for Israel to be defeated. After Israel is gone, who will they start to look at? Already throughout parts of Africa and Eastern Europe seems to be affected.
Dont confuse this with 'they only want to destroy Israel', if Israel was out of the equation, they would be elsewhere. Right now this just seems to be their main priority.

But I do share your thought of "As for defusing the situation. I don't think there is a fuse here to even be lit or extinguished." I have to agree. This will turn into an all-out war soon enough. Reasons are because Israel will not leave, and Hamas wants domination(s) and Victories.

It seemed there were a lot of people that supported Hamas, and were gleefully making excuses for their behavior.

Hamas has a lot of people brainwashed.

And stayed so silent?

No, I'm not trying to be argutive here in the least bit jd... But, that was part of what I read... That Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordon all kept quiet about the war to give Isreal time to finish them off.

Dan

sure makes it hard for Isreal to step up and finish the job.

There is nothing the Isreals can do right if you listen to some in the US. I was thinking of European's also feeling that way.

Strange, the ethnic background and geographic area where it is occuring understand full well what the Hamaus is. By their silence when Isreal strikes back speaks volumes... But listen to the rest of the world, Isreal is always wrong. No matter what they do... I swear, I think there are more people in Europe and the US that want to see Isreal destroyed then there are in the middle east.

Dan

it seems the more liberal someone is, the more they want Israel whipped off the face of the earth.

Is it because they believe in God, so they must be bad?

so you have the wrong answer. Israel isn't the problem its Zionism that attracts hostility. What you describe about the "liberals" is mainly due to the extreme polarisation of US politics, people have extreme views because they are driven away from more moderate, rational views by pre-existing extremists.

Even the less extreme Muslims speak against Zionism rather than Israel. Only the most extremist of extremists want the Jewish people themselves destroyed.

Personally I have no dislike for Israeli's (my house mates parents are Israeli) or Zionism (disagree with the concept but it doesn't affect me) or the Palestinians for that matter, although IMO they would be a lot better off with Fatah in charge (Ironic that now we regretting the death of Arafat, he left a power vacuum that Hamas filled).

If someone is attacked, they should be allowed to REMOVE all future possibilities of threat from that enemy with extreme prejudice. There is no such thing as a "reasonable" response.

Someone is threatening you or your loved ones, you don't try to wound, you empty the gun, center of mass and then reload, just in case.

That Hamas would choose to hide among women and children and then be able to play the hero for the citizens caught in the crossfire, shows the stupidity of the citizens that would fall for it.

A shame that anyone should die for the crime of being stupid.

We have all heard of the Six Day War when Israel gained most of the territory from surrounding countries. The geopolitical ramifications of this particular week are what's causing an awful lot of today's problems.

Who started it?

Neil

I don't like Isreal's nudge nudge wink wink on west bank settlements or the fact they keep Palestinians in ghettoes.

But while Isreal fired the first shots in the six day war, it was Egypt who provoked it by kicking out the UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai and then massing 1000 tanks and 100,000 troops there.

I don't want Isreal wiped out. I don't want Palestinians to live in ghettos either. Hamas thrives in poor neighbourhoods.

James

Israeli army has only done after the fact incursions. That is that after something happens they respond.
Their first strike was the only instance otherwise, but it was not unprovoked. Several neighboring countries made publicly known that they were going to wipe Israel off of the planet. Forces were gathered, Israel de4fended in a first strike and subsequent assault on the armed forces being amassed.

If I am wrong in my understanding, then please let me know.

Also, I want to mention that JD's method would not work without an extermination of a peoples. When the enemy hides behind the women and children, and the majority of the population does nothing to thwart/stop this, it makes it very difficult to find those responsible. The only way to ensure that you got all of them is to destroy everything/everyone in an area. However that would trigger much more violence from many more places. So the idea of just emptying your gun and reloading does not work in this place.

If there is nothing done by the "majority of the population", then they have to accept the consequences of their chosen inaction.

If I KNOW that a group is using my neighborhood for violence, I would find a way to drop a dime on them, or I would leave.

I would not let a house keep me in a war zone and bury my family over it.

Hamas can't win a fight, but they can and do win in the public opion courts. Fire a missile into a populated area and then cry foul when Israel strikes back? And people fall for it, all day long.

I don't CARE about what happened a year ago, 10 years ago, or 50 years ago.

There is a way for peace NOW, and there is the deliberate choice NOW NOT to follow that path.

Anything else is just making excuses. Make the children of today pay for the sins of their fathers? I don't think so.

If the neighboring states would HELP instead of encourge the fight, this would be a non-issue right now.

the problem is, jd, you can't just say "That was then and this is now" even though it may be true. In the six-Day War, Israel attacked Egypt first and trashed the Egyptian air force and gained air superiority which, then as now, was decisive. Whatever they THOUGHT might be the outcome of not doing that, it's not something that I believe that a civilised country should do.

Then, in 1967, they annexed a considerable amount of their neighbours' land and STILL, in 2008, haven't given it back.

The thought of a "pre-emptive strike" is the reason, by the way, that I was/am so implacably against the Iraq war and similar sabre-rattling against Iraq by our respective governments.

Anyway, Israel attacked Egypt and then Jordan, who had a mutual-defence treaty with Egypt, were drawn in and Israel ended up with Gaza and the West Bank. Who was at fault between Syria and Israel is probably debatable but Israel ended up with the Golan Heights. They had already demonstrated to the Syrians that their Migs were outclassed by Israel's Mirage fighters (French, by the way) before formal hostilities commenced but they went ahead and toasted the Syrian air force after they'd finished with the Egyptians - still Day One, mind.

I could go on listing the reasons why the Lebanese, Syrians and West Bank and Gaza Arabs are still so PISSED with Israel but it surely has to be obvious. They haven't given it all back.

Neil

The Israel-Arab threads on TR are usually so heavily anti-Arab that I just feel someone should put the other side.

As for the ability of the general population of Gaza to "deal with" Hamas - no chance. Hamas are the people with guns -lots and lots of guns - and the rest of the population of Gaza are just poor families living in one of the most congested areas on Earth with mains power and running water only available for one third of the time, no jobs, no money and all of their food and vital resources at the mercy of Israel who use that control as punishment of the entire population. The EU and the US have stopped all aid to Gaza and the place has turned into a total shithole. Now, whether the chicken or the egg came first doesn't matter, but what is obvious is that the longer this state of affairs goes on, the more recruits Hamas is going to get and the worse Israel is going to clamp down and so on...

The Gaza population didn't vote Hamas in to fire rockets into Israel. They narrowly voted for Hamas because they couldn't see Fatah doing anything - nothing had changed for years. Hamas then seized total power in Gaza at the point of a gun and retain control by the same method.

When it is first starting JD, yes, something can be done. But when they have lived all of their lives with these groups, and these groups also help protect them (in their eyes), then it becomes 'normal'.
Asking each person just to 'leave' is also a choice that you have, that may be a real hardship on these peoples. Also, for many of them, where will they go? Palestinians may not be likely to be accepted easily in many areas.

And to Neil,
From my understanding, Israel has several times worked on plans to give some land back. But it failed each time. In the latest attempt, they gave back Gaza, while under fire. This was supposed to end hostilities and allow for future land releases. But, the hostilities did not end. In fact, they increased. So, should they give up other land? maybe 4000 rockets into Israel a year will make them more prone to give more back.

What they have done (mostly) from my understanding is in the name of protection, and has been from provocation that action was taken.
If your neighbor was lobbing m80's over your fence, where the children play, would you take action? Or would you sit back and say 'keep 'em coming, you'll run out sooner or later?

Whatever force Israel needs to use to defend itself should be available to use. If Tijuana started lobbing bombs across the border into San Diego, what do you think the US response would be? If the Mexican government did nothing to stop this and chose to ignore it, would we do what we could to stop the attacks?

I heard on the radio the other day that since Israeli occupation of Gaza ended, over 2,000 rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza. And Israel left Gaza because they were told that the attacks would 'stop' because there was nothing to fight for anymore.
I thought it BS then and still do. In the radio report, it had made mention of 2 smaller bay area cities, and it was like 1 launching 2000 rockets at the other inside of 2 yrs., and what Arnie would do to the aggressor -- LOL -- I immediately thought of carpet bombing, and terminators..

Is this the famous American Sense of Humour?

Tijuana has been lobbing STD's at us for years by way of drunken college kids...we haven't done anything yet.

You know what I mean

The was a lie!!!1 - Shock, Horror, Quick Shorite...Everybody Run....

When the IRA were operating across the Irish border in the 1970s and killing our troops and bombing civilians, should we have retaliated on Republic of Ireland soil?

Did we?

No and no.

Neil

Strangely, that conflict is now resolved.

I think sometimes Americans and others, forget....the US is a war mongering nation. This is what we do, since the birth of our country and until the day we cease to exist, we will be warmongers. We took our independence tooth and nail. We decided to start a war in hopes for a better country.

I am not saying this is a bad thing, many good inventions have come from War, it's just sad, Humans don't want to move forward in peace time, it's only in times of war, do we see affirmative action and new inventions.

Invasion of the Pod People?

Oppressive and fundamentally religious groups willing to go to war or result to terror never get the picture until you draw a line in the sand then whoop their collective arses when they step across said line.

And while I'm at it I'm sick and tired of people accusing the US and the EU of being the root of problems in the middle east. While we're definetly not the solution...we aren't the cause either. Paint me anit-Arab if you will, but I don't see any peacful Arab nations in that area. They're all dependent on our nation buying their oil so I see greed as their biggest motivators. I'm not anti-Arab or saying all the people in those nations are like that...but their governments operate that way. The people never stand up for themselves against their own government when faced with oppression, so why should we stand up for them?

By the way...Go Navy! I have a close friend stationed on the, er uh Eisenhower (ports in San Diego) I beleive?

and...I see this being a problem TBH.

The senior officer just retired from the US Navy unexpectedly over disputes with the Bush Administration over the topic of Iran.

Some say he was the ONLY man preventing us from going to war. Despite Gates, saying it would be a ridiculous war..I think it's on the horizon.

Proud to be in the worlds strongest and largest Navy.