Discussion on:

Don't expect these five high-tech skills to bring you more money

Networkworld claims there are five high-tech skills that are on the way out, including Non-IP network and PC tech support. Do you agree or disagree?
http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/career/?p=310

The pay for Java and anything involving .Net framework.

Espcially in the DC area.

That's scary.

Virtually every aspect of technology today could be considered at risk. When you constantly throw the baby out with the bath water , fail to adopt one universal set of standards , aims and objectives then IT remains at best fragmented , ill directed , competitive for the wrong reasons and wanders around with tentacles like a drunken or drugged up octopus.The rest of the world watches this and wonders if ANY medication will help!

Senior Managers desperately want IT under a financial leash .. but do not want to listen to , learn from or pay for objective scientific and technical reasons for doing or not doing technology in a certain way. They make massive technical , financial and developmental mistakes doing it this way. At the same time technical people feel severely constrained , controlled and pushed towards inevitable failure because they cannot manage their own environs. I find it strange that these skills especially desktop and help desk skills are being paid less .. when it is being done so poorly in my view. Any wonder good people long ago abandoned this part of the industry because they were treated badly , paid appallingly , had no hope of changing directions or growing , had no long term security - how can you expect stability and interest when you work like that.

Ken

I agree with this remark. IT in general has changed so much, accounting wants to now where you're spending and why? 10 years ago, it was great.., jobs left and right and now, strict guidlines, improved processes to make it so difficult to move up or even get a raise. I'm fed up with I.T. as I've been doing this for 12 years. Nowadays, companies want to pay $30K for someone with Sr. Level knowledge or the most will pay is 50K. What they hell are you going to do with 50K? Forget looking upwards on the corportate ladder, whoever is there, will make sure they stay there and don't lose any chance of slipping up. Time to move to real-estate.

If IT is viewed purely as a method of doing things... Then today a lot of money's being wasted.. also because maybe the industry guys keep it a little unintelligible (I don't mean to offend anyone... Please tell me your views)

However like me, if you like IT coz of itself, if you like setting up a network or a server, then IT is not getting its due...

I think the market for Java and .Net is better than ever in DC and Baltimore. The problem is that the technology has become so popular that the candidate market is fairly strong, driving down wages.

when I worked at a fortune 50 comopany recently, this area has lots of .net programmers, but not so much java, so they imported a lot of contractors from Wipro, and then began building their own IT company in India. Whatever can be outsourced will depress wages/salaries here.

Two of my clients are large recruiting firms. If you are an experienced .Net developer, you can get more than $100k per year right now. If you want to work in NE MD, and have a clean history, you can do even better.

The companies that post that large of a $ are showing you the billing rate to the customer - not the actual employee salary rate.

It's a bait-n-switch game recruiters use to get you in the door.

I work in the cleared community and I have yet to see anyone doing software engineering getting anywhere close to that.

yeah I think I agree. Hope you can refer me to the recruiting firms of your clients. I would like to apply on that job. Thank you so much..

I'm in Northern Virginia. If you want that much money in this area, you usually need a Top Secret clearance. It can take 2 years to get your clearance, but once you have one, you are much more marketable!

I've worked from the Columbia MD customer base to the McLean customer base. TS/SCI/+poly. I have yet to see anyone earing anywhere near that doing software development.

The typical job boards are full of employers who mislead candidates just to get them in the door. It's a bait and switch tactic.

If you'd like to watch a potential employer squirm, ask them for proof that the position pays that much, or that you won't have to buy your own PC or IDE.

had to purchase my own PC or Integrated Development Environment (IDE). I do have my own laptop because I have been a consultant for 12 years and prefer to work at home or on the road when it conveniences me.

I have seen developers making over $100K as full-time employees. I personally wouldn't take a job making $100k in Washington, DC area because of the high cost of living.

Maybe in the next 20 years you'll see how unique and out of place your situation was.

I had a PM who decided to use PHP (based on a blog he read) and required we use Zend Studio. He wanted me to buy one for my work development, another license for my home use, and since Zend was offering a "buy 2 get 1 free", he got the other one. Not wanting to get fired I just pulled out the VISA. Of course 4 months later he read on another blog where Python was better than PHP, so we switched. The company didn't have any PC's so we had to buy our own. I kept this one at my desk.

I also had another PM who decided we should buy Visual Basic for development work. Good thing there was a CompUSA nearby. The PC for this program needed to stay in the lab at not at my desk, so I had to buy another PC.

The company was in the top 5: http://www.washingtontechnology.com/top-100/2007/

Decent paying software development jobs are rare, even for those of us with government clearances.

DC is a high cost area, but we don't have any developers making that kind of pay here.

After checking some job boards I see where Austin is effected by the same bait and switch schemes this area is.

I have 3 buds, 2 that just graduated and 1 that graduated 3 years ago that are all making 100K+ yearly. 1 works for Microsoft, of course he would make that much straight out of college. The next guy is a remote database admin for some pharmaceutical company based in Cincinatti. Neither of these 2 had to supply any of the equipment needed to do their job.
Finally the last guy has opened his own company that is developing software for the state gov among other private companies. I'll admit that opening your own business is an advantage when it comes to salary but it also involves a lot of work. I'm really impressed as the guy is only 28 years old.
But that the way of the future. These kids now days are learning the stuff younger and younger. Before long we'll all lose our jobs to an 11 year old. I'll admit my salary isn't close to what I think I'm worth, but if I chose to take a job that earned that much money, I'd probably hate the job. I hate the corprate BS...

Of course there are?! I guess with experience and time sprinkled with a bit of confidence instead of desperation, you can weed them out and discard them.

I've been in Texas for only 5 months. I have worked all around USA including a stint in Zurich, Switzerland and London, England.

Still no bait and switch encountered. No REQUIREMENT to have my own PC. But it wouldn't matter since I have one anyway. No REQUIREMENT to purchase software. But for the most part, I'm loaded on the software side.

If the client requires you to incur additional costs, then it is up to you to perform a cost-benefit analysis and make a nay or yea decision.

If a bait and switch and game occurs and you recognize it, then it is up to you to accept or reject it.

Life is no sweet smelling roses without the stink. My goal is to proactively make life for me more rosey than stinky.

God Bless
Faith

http://www.linkedin.com/in/faithsloan
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Kam, did you serve? I am wondering how people get TS/SCI/+poly without having come straight out of the military. The highest I've seen has been a TS without military history. I suppose it's just a matter of time.

but just can't prove it.

Urban legends .. Just gotta love the internet.

I got a buddy with a Ferarri ...
I got another buddy with a Bugatti ...
I got another buddy who's a ninja ...

Wishing you all the best, Kam. But remember there are always 2 sides to the same old raggedy coin. Flip the shiny part right side up, my friend.

God Bless
Faith

http://www.linkedin.com/in/faithsloan
http://www.lexjansen.com/cgi-bin/xsl_transform.asp?x=ast&s=sugi_a&c=sugi#faitloan
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Truth be told: IT is NOT on its way out any more than GREED is on its way out.

More people are greedier and as a result costs are higher and wages are lower. The only way to really beat the problem is to find a trend where you can build a lucrative niche and make more money. In the 90s, IT in general was a lucrative trend and it all of a sudden became "cool" to work in computers. As a result, a lot of people who wouldn't dare risk being uncool jumped into IT during the 90s and these same people are still in their positions or in higher ones now, meanwhile the true geeks who don't care how "cool" something is as long as it's intellectually stimulating got shut out because the "cool" guys feared for their job security and had the suckup skills to survive and sell themselves.

That being said, IT is not on it's way out anytime soon, even with offshoring and shrinking average salaries, IT will be critical in the future. It is important to find the segments of IT where there are good trends to ride and then position yourself there. .NET and Java aren't going anywhere anytime soon, but programming really requires skills that aren't about the code in order to survive. I got stuck in the unemployment line for 2-3 years on and off after the Y2k and .com busts and now I've been back in IT and in 2-3 years I've positioned myself in a great place and have a great boss. I got stuck in the cold when everything went down the drain here in Cleveland (WAY tougher economy than DC!) because I didn't do anything about the downturn trend I predicted in IT and went into business for myself in late 2001--then 9/11 compounded things and I ended up unable to find a way to make a living from mid-2002 to mid-2004.

Now I keep looking for trends and I try to get in front of the wave like a surfer, and paddle hard to be ready for the wave. I am now completely tech-support free (though I do it on the side for a modest rate of $100/hour) and work as a project manager & software engineer. I've found that healthcare is in DIRE need of automation and that they will pay some ridiculously good money for software to run all sorts of parts to their business. I'm currently an employee where I am now, but eventually, my goal is to build some good solid connections and business understanding in order to open my own company and sell solutions to the healthcare industry. Healthcare has tons of room for improvement (15% of U.S. healthcare costs go to administration alone--highest in the world!) and if I create solutions to ease their burdens, I will be able to name my price and do great.

The days of the single-role player making the supermegabucks in IT are finished. Truly successful IT people can't just be a programmer or a hardware tech, they have to be conscious of business needs and be able to solve problems to fill that need. IT people who learn to find a growing need and sell their solution to fill it, no matter what they do, can make great strides in their income.

Why don't you prove something? Always hounding someone for proof won't get you the job you want that everybody else already has.
Why don't you just call me a liar? I bet your boss really enjoy having you in the office.

"Why don't you prove something?"
I'm not the one making the outlandish claim.

"Always hounding someone for proof won't get you the job you want that everybody else already has."
If everybody else has it, then who hands me the breakfast burrito as McDonalds? You?

"Why don't you just call me a liar?"
Whatever makes you happy. Liar.

"I bet your boss really enjoy having you in the office."
He does.

If you want games, try Chuck'E'Cheeses. The rest of us don't have time.

Yes I agree. I know many people that make over the 100k mark. Some are typical network admins, a few are QA testers and a couple developers. All make over 100k here in the DC area and all have TS/SCI clearances. Couple of them don't even have a degree.

DC

I agree but not just in the DC Area. .NET and JAVA contracts and full time gigs are in abundance on the job boards such as Dice, monster, computerjobs, etc etc.

I preferred to tackle a niche technology 12 years ago --- ColdFusion.

There was a bit of talk amongst my tech and business peers in regards to ColdFusion going by the way side. That, my dear friends, is the myth of the decade.

I believe that the most valuable candidate is the one who is not only technology savvy but who can also 'speak' to both the tech as well as the C-level exec types; who can also write technical and non-technical communications; who also knows something about the business and/or about business in general.

Do you know programming? How about architecting business solutions? What do you know about database optimization and Queries optimization? ARe Business Analysis, Project Management, Cost-Benefit Analysis in your arsenal of tools?

The moral of the story: It is important that YOU take charge of where you want to go. Don't stand around the water cooler discussing impending doom. Figure out where the company is going. Who are the decision makers? Make yourself known. Create a custom position for yourself.

That, my friends, is what will distinguish your tree from the others in the huge forest out there.

God Bless
Faith R. Sloan
http://www.linkedin.com/in/faithsloan
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Right, but most of us who are very knowledgeable about and good at the tech side don't have the suck-up skills. Unfortunately the "C-level exec types" won't or can't take it upon themselves to learn to 'speak' to us.

I agree, most of us are not supermen. But You don't need to be be a superman to learn how to talk to the C-level. Remember that they have the power, and unless you are at C-level yourself, you will need (sooner or later) to learn to speak to them or stay wherever you at at the hierarchy. Right, to be deeply technical requires another way of thinking: analytical, perhaps a bit introverted, perhaps a bit crazy to think out of the box. But for the same reasons, probably you have the mindset about how to do stuff better for *less money*, and all C-level worries about is that: how to make more money and spend less. TCO, CAPEX, OPEX, get used to that and you will be all set to talk to your senior executives.

That's what I was saying a few posts back. I didn't say it as well but it was the gist of what I was trying to say...
You need to stay current. Your future is in your hands.

I think this kind of advice is the kind that certain people are unable to deal with. There was a time when they could just figure out how a computer worked and do ok and even rather well. Just because you say those things does not mean that people have the ability to do them. It looks like we still have some hold-overs in the industry. Perhaps a ways down the road you'll only have to give that speech to new college grads as there won't be anyone left without those abilities. Then again, maybe you're just one of the minority who can be highly successful in this environment and it will just always look that way to you. I've heard this before. How many "custom positions" actually exist? I think few. That's the whole reason non-custom positions and Dice ads exist - because most people don't have that ability. Well, too bad for them. The evolution of humanity continues and life is hard for the majority. Nothing new there.

Just put it on your CV and try to find a job, then (if you're lucky) compare it with the .NET and java vacancies

is dropping like a rock though. Fortunately my employer was struggling to get Delphi developers of the quality it desired, so we are switching to .NET, not as difficult as the HR numpties would have us believe, that.

There are still some diehard firms trying to milk their Delphi code base, but you are looking at career death if you don't amasss some experience in .net or Java in the winders marketplace.

For employers there are a lot of peope who claim they know Delphi. Based on our last recruitment drive, though, only about 30% of those available, who haven't yet moved on are past junior level in terms of ability.

Computer Training - with most high schools and elementary and middle schools teaching computer skills, I have noticed a steady decline in the demand for end-user computer training. I was in that business for 13 years, and could see the trend happening back when I left 7 years ago.

FoxPro is a language hat can work natively with databases but it is focused more on cursors rather than on T-SQL and I believe it has been a long while since last version from MicroSoft.
+ designing the user interface with foxpro is a nightmare

FoxPro is a language hat can work natively with databases but it is focused more on cursors rather than on T-SQL and I believe it has been a long while since last version from MicroSoft.
+ designing the user interface with foxpro is a nightmare

Actually Microsoft quit supporting Fox Pro.

Actually, while they have announced there will be no new versions of FoxPro, MS has committed to providing mainstream support for the product through 2010 and extended support through 2015. They released SP2 for the current version (VFP 9) last October.

Not True. FoxPro (Visual FoxPro) is supported until 2015. What is true is that MS has said that 9.0 will be the last version of VFP. That said, the FoxPro community has taken up the gauntlet and continued with VFPx with many user supported 'add-ons'. In conjunction with SEDNA, MS's interface and add-on, VFP is still a viable solution for many RDMS front ends.

I respectfully submit that the poster that thinks VFP's UI is a nightmare, just doesn't 'get it'. Especially if one has a reliable Framework, you can put very nice solution together for any number of cases, across many back ends, MS-SQL, Oracle, MySQL, Postgres, etc., in very short order.

The whole thing boils down to MS wanting to get the bigger bucks for their VS platform.

For those interested in looking at the real world and not the MS & Gartner hype, VFP can still stand on its own against the best.

I'm not currently working with VFP, BUT, I simply love VFP's object oriented development evironment, it's GUI dev tools, the simplicity in wish the database engine can attach to back-end databases, and it's capabilities as a web-scripting engine (when used with Westwind Technologies add-on).

It has been successfully used as a server-side database engine for many years.

The poster simply doesn't get it. I'll agree.

I plan to purchase the VFP 9.0 upgrade this month.

VFP's followers are some of the most die-hard in the programming business. While Microsoft will support the product for some time they will neither market nor, in many respects, acknowledge its existence.

Why? The product comes with its own blazingly fast database engine (Rushmore). Likewise you can create front-ends that connect to, query, and manipulate a seemingly endless list of external data sources (AS/400, iSeries comes to mind). Either way, plunk down about $600 or so and you have a highly-efficent and head-to-toe database-centric application development tool in a box.

And that's it's problem.

Microsoft makes a lot of money selling CALs for SQL server - thus you will hear plenty of marketing for VB/C++,dotNyet..ANY development environment that does NOT come with its own database backend.

And VFP followers are not sheep easily assimilated into the .NET collective.

A highly-efficient, cost-effective player like Visual FoxPro is flat out pesky! VFP is sort of like the engineering plans for the car that runs on water being kept on a shelf somewhere.

Okay, that's a stretch but you get the idea.




http://www.universalthread.com

I work in healthcare and we have a few FoxPro-based systems where I work. While I can't speak to the development toolset, I will say that it is a NIGHTMARE to deal with FoxPro databases from someplace like SQL Server or MS Access because they have no obvious structure that is exposed to other worlds, and therefore backend reporting and two way data transfer (esp. real-time) are a MASSIVE pain. At least one vendor is going to switch from VFP to a completely rebuilt .NET/SQL application on their next major version. Also, I've read and heard plenty about VFP's security and I know not whether it allows for easy SOX auditing, triggers, and the like. I would prefer to eliminate FoxPro-based systems we have now and purchase no more of them in the future because of these reasons. I don't believe MS is pushing .NET/SQL simply for the sake of selling CALs or Visual Studio Licenses, I believe it has more to do with FoxPro just being ready to retire since these newer technologies are more of what businesses will want to carry them through the early 21st century.

just put it on your CV and go find a job. Compare it with the .NET and java vacancies.

I.T. in the USA will soon follow the way of the dodo bird....and the milling industry and the steel industry and....you get the drift. Automobile manufacturing is another industry that in 50 years will no longer be in the USA, except the foreign companies.

I've been in I.T. for 20 years and would NEVER suggest to a highschool kid that this is a good career to get into, matter of fact I am in my 40's and trying to get the hell out of I.T. but it is not an easy task at my age.

I.T. employees are and have always been WAY underpaid!

I don't agree with this whatsoever.. You're seeing a lot of larger companies coming back to the US for jobs because the support that they get and the customer satisfaction from overseas support just isn't up to par with what they get in the US and Canada.

More and more it's important to bring in skilled IT professionals.. But what has happened is too many so-called professionals have tainted the market and it just makes it increasingly difficult for employers to find qualified computer positions.

Yes, you may work for a "foreign" company when you work at a Toyota plant in Kentucky or a BMW plant in South Carolina, but the fact of the matter is you're working and you're putting food on the table so at the end of the day does it really matter that it's a foreign company?

You are DEAD ON about the "so-called" professionals out there tainting the market! I have been saying this for years now. I know a LOT of so-called IT professionals out there doing just that. One guy I know claims he is an "extremely intelligent IT guy" and "worth every penny and more" yet this jack@$$ couldn't set up a simple AD server or Exchange without the help of a 3rd party consulting company! WTF? (this guy even told me I should start using said company because "they can solve any problem") My response? Uhh...I already solve the problems that arise on my network. Why should I convince my company to pay someone else to fix problems..that's what I'm here for.

Bottom line is this...there are too many people out there getting "free passes" into the IT industry without any real scrutiny. Microsoft certs are falling by the wayside because of boot camps pumping out idiots with the answers to the exam in on hand and a cert in the other with no real experience; Tech schools are pushing people out the door with a degree in hand that can't even set up server '03 (this is fact as I went to a tech school and, all joking aside, there were people in my graduating class that couldn't even connect a computer to a domain!) These reasons and more are why the IT industry is the way it is now. It is why more and more companies are using 3rd party consulting firms. If something is not done and done soon, we are all going to be considered as useful as the damn Geek Squad. "Got a problem? Reformat! Printer doesn't work? Reformat! Monitor won't come on? Reformat! Reformat! Reformat!"

From my standpoint I can say that school's aren't doing their jobs. I would have to say that they need to refigure the way that they are teaching. More hands on exp would provide a better quality I.T. personell. Everything I know that I actually use is through my own interest and looking into it. For instance, I was in pre-med for a good while and because of this I have taken many biology and chemistry classes. For every biology or chemistry class I took I also had to take a Lab that actually went hand and hand with the class. So here I know the theory behind setting up a network or a 2003 server, but I don't have any hands on experience. I finally got my first IT job still about a year away from having my bachelors in ISTE. Coming into this job I felt as if I didn't know enough. I feel that I barely know the introductory to IT. It was near impossible for me to find an entry level IT job. But I finally found one and I can say all the things I have to do are so simple. Even the things that are over my head I just do a tiny bit of research via the internet and can find the answer. By no means do I mean that I'm good at what I do I'm just saying if there are idiots out there ruining the market with their lack of ability to produce sufficient IT services. Something has to be wrong. I really think that throwing in some more hands on exp in schools might help. But maybe its just my school. I'm new in this job market and its already looking like the market is on a downward slope. I don't really know if anyone of you would be in the same boat, but 2 months ago everyone was looking awesome and then I read this. hahaha

The problem is that the schools emphasis is on passing the tests and not the practical work. The only thing a Cert should be used for is a gauge, ok this person had read the material and was tested on it.

In the mid to late 90's there was a phrase going around for CNE (remember them) "paper engineers". One trend I've seen lately is Companies test you before they even interview you; I've walked into a Company and first thing they would do is hand me a test, one even gave me a practical test.

Also keep in mind that all vendor certs are not equal, the vary n difficulty. One example is the Avaya Cert program, compared to say a Cisco CCNA. Most cert tests are simply multiple guess and nothing else. Some, like the Cisco Exams have simulations that force you to configure or do some sort of a practical task.

I still require applicants to have a Certification before I interview them and when I do interview, the process is at least four hours which include several interviewers.

At least when I ask them to setup a sniffer trace on a VOiP issue, they can tell what CODEC the customer is using and any other related information needed to correct the issue. That person is worth every penny spent IMHO.

-Peace

I am basically agreed, but recently Indian tech support in large companies improved dramatically.
I used to be so angry even a year ago hearing English with Indian accent. But now they are ok. Very polite and professional. So you cannot say that foreign tech support and programming will disappear.
But I am agree that skilled IT professionals is what everybody need.

I know a company that is bringing it's entire phone-support back to the USA because of complaints and loss of business to competitors.

If people would stop being so polite and would actually log a complaint over this stuff it would happen quicker. My company relies on a vendor that just moved its support to India. The employees here just stopped calling them altogether because the service was so bad. We paid almost $200k a year for nothing! When I got here I threw a fit and got some of their other clients to join me as well. Just last week I recieved the new phone number for their re-opened call center in Dallas. Sometimes you have to push back on a company.