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I think they should but no. The civilian sector in the U.S. has to consider that the military personnel are salaried workers. Even if they do work overtime like during a war or other situations, they do not get overtime pay. Many people do not think of them as of being in an exempt status.....
Actually having been in the military myself they ARE covered under federal wage laws. They are considered emergency services. Your private sector job does not fall under that category.
We typically worked 5 day weeks from 5am till we were released for the day which could be anywhere from 4pm to 6pm. We had weekends off. If we went on an FTX that was 24/7.
Exempt or non exempt it does not matter. You are paid 40 hours a week regardless if you are there for the full 40 or less. Companies forget that and sometimes will require you to take a holiday for a client day off even though you are salary and paid in bulk and not per hour. Being salaried does not mean you are a slave.
We work in an Employer Market. They always work it to their advantage and most the time the worker is the one getting screwed because in the end you need a job.
We used to be salaried and in 2004 we were reclassified. Our private sector company had a cow because it did not know what to do. No overtime was authorized but it did not want to tell our clients that. They also had a problem with emergency pagers since now they would have to pay us to be on call.
They did whatever to try to wiggle around labor laws. Right now to avoid paying us OT they are opting to have us work that day but take a day off that week as long as we do not go over 40 for the total week. Being they are based it Texas they forget that California is 8 hour days as well. LOL. What I love is that they still charge our client though as if we did work OT. The last OT project I worked on I got a copy of the bill proposal for our client and thought gee how nice my chunk of that hourly rate is not even a third and I am the one doing all the work.
Hell I worked the academy awards earlier in the year and we got an email from management asking us to explain why we could not had done the support during normal business hours. Our time cards are detailed. Project code with description was listed. But yeah sure I will tell them that for the 2009 Oscars if they could please do it during normal business hours and not on a Sunday afternoon to evening. I am sure that would fly.
We typically worked 5 day weeks from 5am till we were released for the day which could be anywhere from 4pm to 6pm. We had weekends off. If we went on an FTX that was 24/7.
Exempt or non exempt it does not matter. You are paid 40 hours a week regardless if you are there for the full 40 or less. Companies forget that and sometimes will require you to take a holiday for a client day off even though you are salary and paid in bulk and not per hour. Being salaried does not mean you are a slave.
We work in an Employer Market. They always work it to their advantage and most the time the worker is the one getting screwed because in the end you need a job.
We used to be salaried and in 2004 we were reclassified. Our private sector company had a cow because it did not know what to do. No overtime was authorized but it did not want to tell our clients that. They also had a problem with emergency pagers since now they would have to pay us to be on call.
They did whatever to try to wiggle around labor laws. Right now to avoid paying us OT they are opting to have us work that day but take a day off that week as long as we do not go over 40 for the total week. Being they are based it Texas they forget that California is 8 hour days as well. LOL. What I love is that they still charge our client though as if we did work OT. The last OT project I worked on I got a copy of the bill proposal for our client and thought gee how nice my chunk of that hourly rate is not even a third and I am the one doing all the work.
Hell I worked the academy awards earlier in the year and we got an email from management asking us to explain why we could not had done the support during normal business hours. Our time cards are detailed. Project code with description was listed. But yeah sure I will tell them that for the 2009 Oscars if they could please do it during normal business hours and not on a Sunday afternoon to evening. I am sure that would fly.
"You are paid 40 hours a week regardless if you are there for the full 40 or less."
Gee, I can't remember the last time I worked for a hi-tech employer that expected less than a 45-50 hour work week from it's salaried engineers. Start-ups usually expect even a lot more than that. It wasn't till I switched to contracting and hourly pay that I was able to ease off the hours w/o fear of recrimination from my employer.
Of course, now when my client takes a day off, so do I... without compensation. Everything is a trade-off.
Gee, I can't remember the last time I worked for a hi-tech employer that expected less than a 45-50 hour work week from it's salaried engineers. Start-ups usually expect even a lot more than that. It wasn't till I switched to contracting and hourly pay that I was able to ease off the hours w/o fear of recrimination from my employer.
Of course, now when my client takes a day off, so do I... without compensation. Everything is a trade-off.
In the Canadian military, you are told from day one that you are paid for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and will go and do whatever you are told -- and LIKE it.
I've never heard of any armed forces punching a clock and demanding overtime pay -- but who knows. Does the US Army have a union too? Do they go on strike?
In Canada, refusing to do what you're called upon to do and work whatever hours you are told to work would be considered a pretty serious offense -- at a minimum, would rate extra duties or jail time.
I've never heard of any armed forces punching a clock and demanding overtime pay -- but who knows. Does the US Army have a union too? Do they go on strike?
In Canada, refusing to do what you're called upon to do and work whatever hours you are told to work would be considered a pretty serious offense -- at a minimum, would rate extra duties or jail time.
I was told we were 24/7 when I went in but in garrison we still typically had working hours and off duty hours and that varied.
FTXes were all 24/7 because you are in the field.
Back at the billets your day started at 5am. You got up, put on your PT clothes, started to clean your room, went out to first formation.
The end of the day was roughly between 4-5pm depending on when you got your tasks done for that day. It typically consisted of you waiting around to be released. This could be up to 6pm.
We typically did not work weekends. Those were off duty hours. Again, unless it was a Field Training Exercise that was over the weekend as well.
If you get deployed somewhere it could be 24/7 as well BUT it depends on that. You still would have some sort of on duty and off duty hours.
FTXes were all 24/7 because you are in the field.
Back at the billets your day started at 5am. You got up, put on your PT clothes, started to clean your room, went out to first formation.
The end of the day was roughly between 4-5pm depending on when you got your tasks done for that day. It typically consisted of you waiting around to be released. This could be up to 6pm.
We typically did not work weekends. Those were off duty hours. Again, unless it was a Field Training Exercise that was over the weekend as well.
If you get deployed somewhere it could be 24/7 as well BUT it depends on that. You still would have some sort of on duty and off duty hours.
When I served in the US Navy, I was allowed to work all the overtime I wanted, but the pay did not increase. When I reported aboard my first ship, the I asked the Chief what the hours were, he told me we just work half days at sea, 0700-1900.
Can't means Won't
Won't means Jail
24 hour grafting on ops is evened out by half days and sports afternoon in camp.
Won't means Jail
24 hour grafting on ops is evened out by half days and sports afternoon in camp.
Companies classify employees for their benefit so it is very possible that you will get your overtime if you pass the excemt non-excempt test. I just won a sue against the company I was working for two years after my resignation; my position was Sr. UNIX Admin so give it a try. There are law firms which will work with you and you don't have to pay a penny; if the sue is won, they get 33% of the monies. Remember, companies are there to screw the employees and they get away with murder. Now, the question is: Do you have the guts to sue the company your working for?
murillorobert said, "Remember, companies are there to screw the employees and they get away with murder."
That's retarded.
That's retarded.
Perhaps not all companies, but there are plenty of unscrupulous company officers out there who are more than willing to "push the envelope" with regard to using creative methods to avoid paying their employees what they should be or what they deserve.
As far as using the term "retarded," that's certainly not a very professional response.
As far as using the term "retarded," that's certainly not a very professional response.
I would have said "cynical", but must disagree with
"retarded". Companies are there to make a profit,
generally. Those at the top feel justified in keeping as
much of the profit as possible for themselves, generally.
This usually means paying those who do the actual work
as little as possible, regardless of their value to the
company. As an IT guy, most of my jobs have been
"salaried", though my work schedule has typically
included weekends, holidays, and required overtime - and
was not at a "suit and tie" level.
"retarded". Companies are there to make a profit,
generally. Those at the top feel justified in keeping as
much of the profit as possible for themselves, generally.
This usually means paying those who do the actual work
as little as possible, regardless of their value to the
company. As an IT guy, most of my jobs have been
"salaried", though my work schedule has typically
included weekends, holidays, and required overtime - and
was not at a "suit and tie" level.
As there are several peers on TR who have family members with mental disabilities, comments stating 'retarded' in a derogatory manner usually get pulled.
I use it myself in some specific cases where I am describing a system that has failed, appropriately meaning the system has been retarded, as in reverted or moved backward.
Even saying that someone shows a retarded mindset is not so bad as it really is a term for moving backward. Engine timing can retarded but it doesn't mean it is stupid.
To describe someone or something as retarded with the intent of suggesting it is stupid, or ridiculous is not so acceptable though, pretty derogatory and offensive to many.
I use it myself in some specific cases where I am describing a system that has failed, appropriately meaning the system has been retarded, as in reverted or moved backward.
Even saying that someone shows a retarded mindset is not so bad as it really is a term for moving backward. Engine timing can retarded but it doesn't mean it is stupid.
To describe someone or something as retarded with the intent of suggesting it is stupid, or ridiculous is not so acceptable though, pretty derogatory and offensive to many.
retarded, unless I clarify the meaning first. I know in the past I have said something like
The manager is retarded, meaning hindering, or being a roadblock which slows progress.
I try to avoid it for most other purposes, as it is not a term that would go over well, even outside of TR.
The manager is retarded, meaning hindering, or being a roadblock which slows progress.
I try to avoid it for most other purposes, as it is not a term that would go over well, even outside of TR.
I am trying to figure out how this line of discussion is enlightening us on the salary issue. I'm happy that none of you have ever said anything that someone else has found offending. Better yet that you feel it necessary to standup and correct someone regardless of the subject.
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone..." Oh I'm sorry, did I offend someone by saying "him"? Oh well, I didn't say it.
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone..." Oh I'm sorry, did I offend someone by saying "him"? Oh well, I didn't say it.
I am not seeking your apologies, just hoping to bring a little awareness that, while some terms are often used with the most harmless intent they can actually offend others.
Your eloquence has been duly noted many times, I have no issue with anything you have said to me.
Your eloquence has been duly noted many times, I have no issue with anything you have said to me.
You also have to consider if it is worth the relatively few dollars you will get to be tagged with the reputation of "troublemaker." Perhaps it was worth it to you, but for most people who actually want to go somewhere with their company, suing your boss is usually not the best career move. And it will follow you to your next job too:
A) Your old boss will probably find a subtle way to let your new interviewer know you'll be big trouble if he hires you (the "you don't want to hire this guy" message is often signalled by what the old boss doesn't say as much as by what he does say)
B) Many companies run credit checks on prospective employees as a condition of hire, and your court case will show up there, both as a record in the credit report and in the form of a lowered FICO score.
I worked for a company that hired someone who had sued their previous employer, and while she did get a job, she was always viewed with suspicion by management, she never was trusted with anything important and she never went anywhere with the company, and finally ended up leaving.
So sue away if you're so inclined, but be assured the road is fraught with risks.
A) Your old boss will probably find a subtle way to let your new interviewer know you'll be big trouble if he hires you (the "you don't want to hire this guy" message is often signalled by what the old boss doesn't say as much as by what he does say)
B) Many companies run credit checks on prospective employees as a condition of hire, and your court case will show up there, both as a record in the credit report and in the form of a lowered FICO score.
I worked for a company that hired someone who had sued their previous employer, and while she did get a job, she was always viewed with suspicion by management, she never was trusted with anything important and she never went anywhere with the company, and finally ended up leaving.
So sue away if you're so inclined, but be assured the road is fraught with risks.
When you sign for a job you make a commitment, if you want an overtime pay you must negotiate BEFORE you sign, if you don't like the job without an overtime pay just quit, be professional.
Overtime rules are defined by law, NOT company policy. The concept of overtime was created under federal statute to protect employees and it is the employer's responsibility to prove that the position is not entitled to overtime compensation for time worked over 40 hours per week. In other words, it is the COMPANY'S obligation to justify not paying overtime, not the employee's to prove that he/she shold.
Personally, I think the idea that someone can be expected to put in 60, 80 or more hours a week and not receive additional pay is offensive. The whole point of overtime was a recognition that people need and are entitled to leisure time. And that making them give up that time should require the employer to pay an increased rate for it. When you get hired for a salaried job, whatever that job is, the pay should reflect a 40 hour work week. Unless they are making well into the six figure range. Any work over and above that should be paid at time-and-a-half, at least.
It isn't just a matter of being professional, it's a matter of being LEGAL.
Personally, I think the idea that someone can be expected to put in 60, 80 or more hours a week and not receive additional pay is offensive. The whole point of overtime was a recognition that people need and are entitled to leisure time. And that making them give up that time should require the employer to pay an increased rate for it. When you get hired for a salaried job, whatever that job is, the pay should reflect a 40 hour work week. Unless they are making well into the six figure range. Any work over and above that should be paid at time-and-a-half, at least.
It isn't just a matter of being professional, it's a matter of being LEGAL.
If you're a consultant, and you're working for a consulting firm, it is expected that you'll work overtime. It goes with the territory. Prior to accepting employment, there is usually a clause in the hire letter that states two things that you must agree to, or don't take the job; 'at will' employment which means they can fire you, part company, terminate you, etc., for any reason or for no reason at all, and a statement that says, "You agree, if hired, that you will, at times, be required to work over forty hours per week and that your work may include working nights and weekends." Notice that it says "at times." Heck that can all the time, part of the time, sometimes, every time. Where consultants are concerned, it's loosey goosey, but it is accepted!
You may accept a variety of conditions, but that doesn't make them legal.
If you accept it, then that's what will happen.
If you don't accept it, then they fire you, you have a legit legal case.
If you accept it, then that's what will happen.
If you don't accept it, then they fire you, you have a legit legal case.
I haven't seen anything about salary / payment / whatever in those clauses. To agree to work OT is one thing - to get paid is totally another and as someone said, mandated by law. Maybe (?) if the contract says you agree to work 24h / day with this salary then it would be OK?
Of course, in IT over 35 years I still have to see a job which wouldn't require you to work OT sometimes. Computers just don't sleep..
Of course, in IT over 35 years I still have to see a job which wouldn't require you to work OT sometimes. Computers just don't sleep..
Most people in IT that work the additional hours are usually comp'ed time. This is usually an un-written agreement between a manager and employees. Now although this time is not normally calculated at time and a half it does have the benefits of being more flexible then scheduling vacation. I have been in IT for at least 18 years and all but one position has been exempt. In each case the above applied. I'm sure that the law is solid and if someone wanted to pursue it would probably have a good chance in winning (with the right lawyer) but COME ON. Why are we in IT... because we love it! We really don't mind the extra play time, and by my past we do get a form of comp for the extra time spent at work. This isn't a fast food joint and we have to flip an extra 100 burgers without compensation. Would you really be that upset that you would rather sue then just find another job???
That?s my story and I'm sticking to it
That?s my story and I'm sticking to it
The law is a protection, not an inhibitor. If the position your taking is exempt, that does not bar the payment of overtime. When my dad worked in research at Ford, he was salary + hourly and was paid OT for extra shifts. Quite often these shifts were not 8 hours long, though scheduled.
You signed a contract with your employer to work 40 hours a week. You do NOT need to negotiate overtime .. your employer does, when they request you work it.
If you cannot come to an agreement .. JUST SAY NO.
Les.
If you cannot come to an agreement .. JUST SAY NO.
Les.
IT "consultants" generally are employed by the hour (at least here on the East coast), so are not by definition "salaried", which is the topic of this article.
For salaried employers: in 25 years of doing this on salary, no employer has ever discussed the issue of expected hours-per-week with me at hire time. The expectation is that you will do what your colleagues do. If you work less than they do, the backlash will be of the form of reduced bonuses, lack of advancement opportunities, etc. And then good luck trying to get another job using such an employer as a reference.
So, I think the idea of "negotiating overtime" up front for a SALARIED POSITION doesn't really happen in the real world. You are just expected to do so.
For salaried employers: in 25 years of doing this on salary, no employer has ever discussed the issue of expected hours-per-week with me at hire time. The expectation is that you will do what your colleagues do. If you work less than they do, the backlash will be of the form of reduced bonuses, lack of advancement opportunities, etc. And then good luck trying to get another job using such an employer as a reference.
So, I think the idea of "negotiating overtime" up front for a SALARIED POSITION doesn't really happen in the real world. You are just expected to do so.
niiice, kinda like government. actually the way they are supported by government and allowed to pi$$ on their employees, they may as well BE part of the government sector.
What a scam.
What a scam.
Jeez, this is ridiculous.
If you think your company is actually out to screw you, quit.
I, however, am not comfortable with the us vs. them attitude. I'm part of a small company, and I know that everyone here is trying to let the company win, and I also know that if the company does, everyone will benefit from it. Sure, the owners will garner more of the victory, but they also get hit harder when the company is enduring tough times.
Why can't we just do the job we're employed to do and take the pay we agreed to get?
With comments like this, it's no wonder I have trouble finding good, hard-working employees.
If you think your company is actually out to screw you, quit.
I, however, am not comfortable with the us vs. them attitude. I'm part of a small company, and I know that everyone here is trying to let the company win, and I also know that if the company does, everyone will benefit from it. Sure, the owners will garner more of the victory, but they also get hit harder when the company is enduring tough times.
Why can't we just do the job we're employed to do and take the pay we agreed to get?
With comments like this, it's no wonder I have trouble finding good, hard-working employees.
Why can't we all just live in peace?
Its not a metter of taking the pay we agree.
When you are hired and a salary is quoted, it is based on 40 hour workweeks.
When your employer requests you work beyond those times, it is the EMPLOYER that is ignoring that work contract, not the employees by requesting overtime pay.
I agree that working for smaller companies is always more rewarding, I prefer them myself, more pay, more growth potential, more hands-on operational involvement, less ridiculous corporate red tape to get things done etc.
Small businesses rule the world in my eyes, and they have ALWAYS been my preferred employer. But when an employer takes advantage of that and 'expects' you to constantly work overtime, he has to rightly pay for it.
I don't mind throwing in an extra ahour here and there to get the job done, just don't TELL me to do it or EXPECT me to do it and then expect it more and more. ESPECIALLY if you are going to bitch about me being 10 minutes late on Tuesday.
Its a two way street but there are laws in place, in Canada, that stop employers from pushing it and insisting that you work longer hours for the same money.
Its not a metter of taking the pay we agree.
When you are hired and a salary is quoted, it is based on 40 hour workweeks.
When your employer requests you work beyond those times, it is the EMPLOYER that is ignoring that work contract, not the employees by requesting overtime pay.
I agree that working for smaller companies is always more rewarding, I prefer them myself, more pay, more growth potential, more hands-on operational involvement, less ridiculous corporate red tape to get things done etc.
Small businesses rule the world in my eyes, and they have ALWAYS been my preferred employer. But when an employer takes advantage of that and 'expects' you to constantly work overtime, he has to rightly pay for it.
I don't mind throwing in an extra ahour here and there to get the job done, just don't TELL me to do it or EXPECT me to do it and then expect it more and more. ESPECIALLY if you are going to bitch about me being 10 minutes late on Tuesday.
Its a two way street but there are laws in place, in Canada, that stop employers from pushing it and insisting that you work longer hours for the same money.
If I could stand up and say Amen on that one, I would! Going along with whatever you are told to do does not a professional make. Cover you a$$ at all times! You need to be a competent, professional employee not afraid to stand up for him/her/itself yet not crossing over that line and being a whiney, snivveling, spoiled brat of an employee.
In 2004 things here changed due to constant abuse of salaried workers. I am no longer salaried. I am an hourly wage earner.
It is a two way street and too many think because you are salaried that means they can have you live there. You are simply paid on flat rate for typical workweek hours which is 40 (and btw whether you are there or not, when I was salaried exempt they would make us take vacation days for our client's holidays. Funny how they had no problem me working those 10 extra hours but hell no we can't let them have that day off. I finally just said fine I will come in them. But but there wont be anyone here. Yes, but you are already paying me for the week anyway and I earned that vacation time not to be rooked by you).
Exempt is not meant for permanent. It is meant for those temporary times when OT may be needed. What is laughable is that it was more or less meant for management who was supposed to be there when the doors opened and be there after the doors closed. In reality how many of them stroll in after opening hours and stroll out long before the end.
When we were salaried exempt I never really bitched about putting in an extra hour here or there. I would get clients who would call me 5 minutes before we closed. I would go help them. What pissed me off was when management would bitch over begin late.
It is a two way street and too many think because you are salaried that means they can have you live there. You are simply paid on flat rate for typical workweek hours which is 40 (and btw whether you are there or not, when I was salaried exempt they would make us take vacation days for our client's holidays. Funny how they had no problem me working those 10 extra hours but hell no we can't let them have that day off. I finally just said fine I will come in them. But but there wont be anyone here. Yes, but you are already paying me for the week anyway and I earned that vacation time not to be rooked by you).
Exempt is not meant for permanent. It is meant for those temporary times when OT may be needed. What is laughable is that it was more or less meant for management who was supposed to be there when the doors opened and be there after the doors closed. In reality how many of them stroll in after opening hours and stroll out long before the end.
When we were salaried exempt I never really bitched about putting in an extra hour here or there. I would get clients who would call me 5 minutes before we closed. I would go help them. What pissed me off was when management would bitch over begin late.
I'm glad that things work so well at your company and that employees are fairly compensated. But it seems that's the exception, rather than the rule. Unions gained power because they addressed the inequities in the workplace. Of course, many of them then abused that power. Human nature, unfortunately.
During the hard times, like now, it isn't the top level people who necessarily get hit hardest. As anyone who has ever been laid off in a downturn will tell you. Unless the owner/executive is in danger of losing his home or being unable to feed his family, what he's going through doesn't begin to compare.
In my job, I work hard to do things right. And I go above and beyond every day. Plus, I make an extra effort to make my supervisor look good when preparing things for him to present or send out. Not because he will reciprocate. After 20 years, I know that my welfare is only important to him as it affects him. But I think of myself as a professional and I know that the impression he makes on others affects the perception of the organization as a whole.
If you can't find good hard-working employees, it may be because they're afraid to leave their jobs, they're burned out or they've learned to be mistrustful and resentful of the their employers. Whether you personally deserve it or not. Employees have learned to look our for themselves, because they don't expect the company to do it.
During the hard times, like now, it isn't the top level people who necessarily get hit hardest. As anyone who has ever been laid off in a downturn will tell you. Unless the owner/executive is in danger of losing his home or being unable to feed his family, what he's going through doesn't begin to compare.
In my job, I work hard to do things right. And I go above and beyond every day. Plus, I make an extra effort to make my supervisor look good when preparing things for him to present or send out. Not because he will reciprocate. After 20 years, I know that my welfare is only important to him as it affects him. But I think of myself as a professional and I know that the impression he makes on others affects the perception of the organization as a whole.
If you can't find good hard-working employees, it may be because they're afraid to leave their jobs, they're burned out or they've learned to be mistrustful and resentful of the their employers. Whether you personally deserve it or not. Employees have learned to look our for themselves, because they don't expect the company to do it.
What I always love is the rhetoric from top of how they feel our pain etc.
The company I work for has been in acquisition mode for 7 years now, that is it buys out other companies who outbid it for that IT support.
Where does it get the money? By telling us it has none and this year it cannot give out raises or they will have to lay people off. Or telling us all they can do is 2% across the board and get this we are only taking a 2% increase too as if they are one of us.
One of us? I was unaware that the 4 bucks plus I pay for milk was not the same price for them and they actually pay 500. If things were as such it would be much different but all one can do is laugh at a company memo when you can look up their salaries and see their 350K base pay, almost 400K bonus with another 300K in options. Oh but they are ONLY taking a 2% pay raise on that base.
Man we are so much like buds. I feel so loved and that they so understand me. NOT.
But yeah in most cases it does not compare and word from the grunts to management lurking ... it kills our passion for the one that pays our check. We have to dig deeper into ourselves to convince ourselves that we still love what we do. We know when you are patronizing us and thinking we are too stupid to figure it out.
The company I work for has been in acquisition mode for 7 years now, that is it buys out other companies who outbid it for that IT support.
Where does it get the money? By telling us it has none and this year it cannot give out raises or they will have to lay people off. Or telling us all they can do is 2% across the board and get this we are only taking a 2% increase too as if they are one of us.
One of us? I was unaware that the 4 bucks plus I pay for milk was not the same price for them and they actually pay 500. If things were as such it would be much different but all one can do is laugh at a company memo when you can look up their salaries and see their 350K base pay, almost 400K bonus with another 300K in options. Oh but they are ONLY taking a 2% pay raise on that base.
Man we are so much like buds. I feel so loved and that they so understand me. NOT.
But yeah in most cases it does not compare and word from the grunts to management lurking ... it kills our passion for the one that pays our check. We have to dig deeper into ourselves to convince ourselves that we still love what we do. We know when you are patronizing us and thinking we are too stupid to figure it out.
Holy crap! So, your bosses OWE you a raise? Seriously? And the company now needs your approval to spend its money?
Please, please send me your resume so I can be sure my company never hires you.
What's with the class envy going on here? It's no wonder Obama is leading, since he likes to play on these differences, too.
If they are worth $1 Million to the company, why shouldn't they get that pay? You feel like you're worth some amount (what, 100k?) and wouldn't bat an eye at them paying you that, right? So, just because it's a bigger number they're somehow evil or deceptive since you're not making the same amount?
Give me a break!
What you're describing isn't evil, deceptive or unfair; it's simply business.
Also, to the comment that "you got a job based on a 40 hour workweek" :
Really? Are you sure? Or were you hired to do a certain job? Now, certainly some people are hired with time expectations specified, but I would wager that most people who actually qualify as exempt would have been hired to do a JOB, not log a certain amount of time per week.
You guys make my head hurt with your job expectations. Go run a company for a while and then tell me how you feel.
Sheesh!
Please, please send me your resume so I can be sure my company never hires you.
What's with the class envy going on here? It's no wonder Obama is leading, since he likes to play on these differences, too.
If they are worth $1 Million to the company, why shouldn't they get that pay? You feel like you're worth some amount (what, 100k?) and wouldn't bat an eye at them paying you that, right? So, just because it's a bigger number they're somehow evil or deceptive since you're not making the same amount?
Give me a break!
What you're describing isn't evil, deceptive or unfair; it's simply business.
Also, to the comment that "you got a job based on a 40 hour workweek" :
Really? Are you sure? Or were you hired to do a certain job? Now, certainly some people are hired with time expectations specified, but I would wager that most people who actually qualify as exempt would have been hired to do a JOB, not log a certain amount of time per week.
You guys make my head hurt with your job expectations. Go run a company for a while and then tell me how you feel.
Sheesh!
In BC, and the rest of Canada from what I know, salaried positions are based on 40 hr work week, not just GETTING YOUR JOB DONE.
Certainly if you give someone 40hrs of work and they constantly need 50, then you have issues, but if you quote a salary, the Employment Standards Branch clearly states that it is based on a 40 hour work week, even HOURLY wages are based on a 40 hr week, overtime is overtime. Workign more than 40 hrs a week means that you are entitled to overtime, no matter what your antiquated, slave labour thought process makes you believe.
Perhaps you need to start looking at the laws if you do run your own company. It wouldn't be the first time some business owner THOUGHT he had it straight only to be corrected later down the road at his expense.
SO anything OVER 40 hrs goes against fair employment standards practices and the employee is OWED the overtime, if you don't pay it promptly, you will be subject to offering late payment interest.
Once again, as you seem to have misunderstod the rest of this thread, most people don't have any problems working an extra hour to get work finished or to wrap up other projects, but continually asking or expecting them to do so is wrong and you need to pay for it.
If you employees walk in late once in a while, I am sure you don't mind, so as not to be a hypcrite of course. However, when your employees are late on a regular basis and expect you to not say anything, don't you think you are rightly allowed to dock them pay for missed time?
Well that works both ways, just need to look and think for once.
For ALL EMPLOYEES REGARDLESS OF STATUS:
"(1) An employer must pay an employee overtime wages in accordance with section 40 if the employer requires, or directly or indirectly allows, the employee to work more than 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week."
Section 40 for you too:
"40 (1) An employer must pay an employee who works over 8 hours a day, and is not working under an averaging agreement under section 37,
(a) 1 1/2 times the employee's regular wage for the time over 8 hours, and
(b) double the employee's regular wage for any time over 12 hours."
You can get around it by signing an averaging agreement, a lengthy and detailed document explaining WHY your employee is paid differently, generally someone who works odd shifts like a fisherman who can work 20 hours one day and 2 the next. It has to be signed by both the employee and employer and updated with a new agreement each year. I've seen one employer try to use averaging agreements, he was turned down by the ESB as well as having all his service techs quit on the spot. It was almost 7 months before his service department was nearly up to par with what it used to be, a pretty expensive lesson indeed at a loss of over $150.00 hr.
NOTE on exemption: While many IT staff are told they are exempt, you will find that MOST are not. The FLSA does have clear requriements for exempt status and they apply to IT less and less each year, as teh field becomes less of a professional field and mroe of a field of constant study. If yuo are requried to constantly upgrade and learn new knowledge, you are most likely due for non-exempt status, meaning you gte OT like everyone else, but most companies don't se ethat as it falls two paragraphs after the comment that uses IT as an example of exempt status, not recognizing teh very tight guidelines it can be applied under.
Certainly if you give someone 40hrs of work and they constantly need 50, then you have issues, but if you quote a salary, the Employment Standards Branch clearly states that it is based on a 40 hour work week, even HOURLY wages are based on a 40 hr week, overtime is overtime. Workign more than 40 hrs a week means that you are entitled to overtime, no matter what your antiquated, slave labour thought process makes you believe.
Perhaps you need to start looking at the laws if you do run your own company. It wouldn't be the first time some business owner THOUGHT he had it straight only to be corrected later down the road at his expense.
SO anything OVER 40 hrs goes against fair employment standards practices and the employee is OWED the overtime, if you don't pay it promptly, you will be subject to offering late payment interest.
Once again, as you seem to have misunderstod the rest of this thread, most people don't have any problems working an extra hour to get work finished or to wrap up other projects, but continually asking or expecting them to do so is wrong and you need to pay for it.
If you employees walk in late once in a while, I am sure you don't mind, so as not to be a hypcrite of course. However, when your employees are late on a regular basis and expect you to not say anything, don't you think you are rightly allowed to dock them pay for missed time?
Well that works both ways, just need to look and think for once.
For ALL EMPLOYEES REGARDLESS OF STATUS:
"(1) An employer must pay an employee overtime wages in accordance with section 40 if the employer requires, or directly or indirectly allows, the employee to work more than 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week."
Section 40 for you too:
"40 (1) An employer must pay an employee who works over 8 hours a day, and is not working under an averaging agreement under section 37,
(a) 1 1/2 times the employee's regular wage for the time over 8 hours, and
(b) double the employee's regular wage for any time over 12 hours."
You can get around it by signing an averaging agreement, a lengthy and detailed document explaining WHY your employee is paid differently, generally someone who works odd shifts like a fisherman who can work 20 hours one day and 2 the next. It has to be signed by both the employee and employer and updated with a new agreement each year. I've seen one employer try to use averaging agreements, he was turned down by the ESB as well as having all his service techs quit on the spot. It was almost 7 months before his service department was nearly up to par with what it used to be, a pretty expensive lesson indeed at a loss of over $150.00 hr.
NOTE on exemption: While many IT staff are told they are exempt, you will find that MOST are not. The FLSA does have clear requriements for exempt status and they apply to IT less and less each year, as teh field becomes less of a professional field and mroe of a field of constant study. If yuo are requried to constantly upgrade and learn new knowledge, you are most likely due for non-exempt status, meaning you gte OT like everyone else, but most companies don't se ethat as it falls two paragraphs after the comment that uses IT as an example of exempt status, not recognizing teh very tight guidelines it can be applied under.
...and the "upper" class has been waging it for a long time. Why are you uncomfortable about the peons finally saying, "enough is enough?"
Did you ask your company to change the incorrect practice before suing? I had worked in a company as an IT Manager (exempt-employee) and overtime very often. I found out that company just wanted to avoid paying me overtime; and that's why I got the title IT Manger (single person IT shop, without supervise anyone). After I confronted with that company, I didn?t have to work overtime anymore; I worked strictly 8-5 then went home. Could I sue, yes! But I just don?t want to promote the suing culture.
I have been with the same company for 34 years and have seen the answer shift from "yes" to "no". Exempts used to fill out a Blue Form to get overtime hours approved/paid. Or, in the case of software development, automatic overtime was negotiated before a project was even started. All of that changed in the late 80's when economic conditions downshifted. You can now get comp time but not overtime. But we now have an option to *buy* more vacation
Your company may choose, as a process of competing in the marketplace for staff to pay overtime or give comp time as a matter of policy, but if your position is legally non-exempt as defined by US law, comp time can only be given in the same week as the "extra" time was worked so that the total hours worked for the week does not go over 40. Once you have worked over 40 hours in a week, it is illegal for the company to substitute comp time for overtime pay.
I think people have a hard time understanding company policy does not mean legal. The law is what is legal. Company policy is just what the company decides how it wants to handle something. Whatever it decides still does not mean they are legal. Companies will often try to stretch what the laws says. They naturally try to work it to their advantage. Either way it still does not mean by proxy their policy is legal.
My company had a policy of no comp time. It was an unwritten rule about giving it out. Our local management would just ask us what day off the following week do we want but again officially the company policy stated no comp time was ever to be given.
In 2004 we were changed to hourly by federal mandate.
My company had a policy of no comp time. It was an unwritten rule about giving it out. Our local management would just ask us what day off the following week do we want but again officially the company policy stated no comp time was ever to be given.
In 2004 we were changed to hourly by federal mandate.
When I was first hired, I was hired as a "salaried" employee even though I had no actual management duties. This was common practice at the company. A complaint reached the Dept. of Labor and they came in and did an audit of all the workers at our company (about 150 at the time). As a result of the audit, many of us were reclassified as "Non-exempt." As a result, we now get paid for all hours we work. The key in determining the exempt vs. non-exempt status had to do with whether the employee had management or supervisory responsibilities over a group of individuals. If you didn't, then you were non-exempt. As for determining the pay rate, it was done like Toni suggested. They took our current annual salary, divided by 52 to determine the weekly equivalent, and then further divided that by 40 to determine the hourly equivalent. Needless to say, it helped my paycheck.
Having spent almost two decades teaching at upper secondary and tertiary levels on salary incomes,one point is extremely clear - work never finishes at workplace. There has been always a situation where unfinished work is taken over to home to complete for the next day.
Some degree of compensation needs to be done [OP]to raise morale of overworked teachers in developing countries.Overtime payments will act as an incentive especially for civil servants.
Some degree of compensation needs to be done [OP]to raise morale of overworked teachers in developing countries.Overtime payments will act as an incentive especially for civil servants.
When you take a salaried job you are getting paid to do a job the best that you can. If you're not capable to do it in your normal working time (you've probably been screwing off) then you are expected finish it on your own time. That's what you are getting paid for. If you want overtime, get a hourly job, join a union.
What has become of work ethic? Most of our young people think that the time that they are at work is their time not the time their employer has paid for. No wonder other countries are passing us by as we give our jobs away.
What has become of work ethic? Most of our young people think that the time that they are at work is their time not the time their employer has paid for. No wonder other countries are passing us by as we give our jobs away.
That is a load of stereotype dung.
If you actually work in IT then you would know that a GREAT percentage of IT is like being a firefighter.
Your coverage hours are 9-6. You get a call 5 minutes to 6. Client is down. It is multiple people. Can it wait till the morning? No, because you do not come in till 9 and their day starts at 7am. They need to be back up. One machine is a very important machine because it generates revenue and gets calls from different time zones.
If you work in management, quit. Get a job as a regular worker. You are giving typical BS management jargon to imply that a person is not doing their work during work hours and there is plenty of time so no need for OT.
I worked the academy awards. It was all OT. On our time sheets we have to put in the project codes and then a comment for the OT.
I still got an email from upper management asking why this work could not be done during normal business hours. Gee, hmmm ... maybe because the Oscars are on Sunday and in the evening time.
We are being passed up because people cannot afford training on their own and very little of companies today pay for training. We are being passed because companies want to pay you less for the work you do now so they outsource. So stop being a jackass. Jobs are outsourced because of profit margins not being Billy and Sally went to Starbucks and got a latte. It is because they do not want to pay a US programmer 70K a year when they could outsource it and get some Latvia guy to do it for 2500 USD a year.
If you actually work in IT then you would know that a GREAT percentage of IT is like being a firefighter.
Your coverage hours are 9-6. You get a call 5 minutes to 6. Client is down. It is multiple people. Can it wait till the morning? No, because you do not come in till 9 and their day starts at 7am. They need to be back up. One machine is a very important machine because it generates revenue and gets calls from different time zones.
If you work in management, quit. Get a job as a regular worker. You are giving typical BS management jargon to imply that a person is not doing their work during work hours and there is plenty of time so no need for OT.
I worked the academy awards. It was all OT. On our time sheets we have to put in the project codes and then a comment for the OT.
I still got an email from upper management asking why this work could not be done during normal business hours. Gee, hmmm ... maybe because the Oscars are on Sunday and in the evening time.
We are being passed up because people cannot afford training on their own and very little of companies today pay for training. We are being passed because companies want to pay you less for the work you do now so they outsource. So stop being a jackass. Jobs are outsourced because of profit margins not being Billy and Sally went to Starbucks and got a latte. It is because they do not want to pay a US programmer 70K a year when they could outsource it and get some Latvia guy to do it for 2500 USD a year.
I have a System Engineer friend in Latvia who works for $4,000 per month. There isn't anyone in the entire country who works for $2,500 per year. Please, don't further these lame stereotypes and lies.
I think if you're going to complain about having to stay late occasionally and resolve an issue, you should put the shoe on the other foot and ensure you aren't using company time for personal things - yes, including posting on TR...
Just last night I went in to buy some sunglasses and the clerk was chatting on her cell phone. Only when I walked over and ASKED her to open the case did she put down the phone. After she unlocked the case, the phone rang again and she resumed talking. I know this is a mall worker, but I also know that professionals do the same types of things - making personal calls etc. If you want to be a professional, staying to resolve an issue without dropping the phone at 5:00 and sliding down the dinosaur's back ala Fred Flintstone is part of the deal.
Just last night I went in to buy some sunglasses and the clerk was chatting on her cell phone. Only when I walked over and ASKED her to open the case did she put down the phone. After she unlocked the case, the phone rang again and she resumed talking. I know this is a mall worker, but I also know that professionals do the same types of things - making personal calls etc. If you want to be a professional, staying to resolve an issue without dropping the phone at 5:00 and sliding down the dinosaur's back ala Fred Flintstone is part of the deal.
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