Discussion on:

10 reasons IT certification will be important in 2009

"Certified IT pros have a credible advantage over their colleagues."

No offense, but you're kidding right?

I've worked with certifed people are much more incompetent than those not certified, yet were preferred by HR because the paper said they were competent... at what, we're not sure, but it was an "industry" standard.

Hey, did you know that anyone can make up a cert program about anything? I know that ASHI and FABI (home inspection affiliations) were compltely fabricated by 3 guys to give themselves a 'crediblity'. Fancy name for a coffee group.

In reality, Certification means that ?I?ve been trained to start learning to practice in this area of Information Technology?.

(A. MS, Novell, Cisco, IBM, etc. can?t fix their own problems in a timely fashion, so they certify that you?ve been trained so that you can?t either? And you think that?s a good thing? And you paid money, too?! I don?t quite get it.)

The resume says "I'm Certified in....."
(B. I never asked for a resume in the ad.)

And my response is "So? What can you actually do?"
(C. I have easy interview questions. Why is it so hard to answer?)

Or my response may be "OK, there's a problem in this home network at this location. Fix it in two hours and you can try out that desk right there."
(D. Some Certified IT Professionals eyes can get really big on that one and they start remembering appointments and previous commitments elsewhere. I, on the other hand, know exactly where the problem is and keep it that way just for this purpose. BTW, White shirt and tie might be a hindrance here (I?m sure the Ad said ?Casual Dress?))

Or, I may ask the interviewee to make a pot of coffee, or if they do Windows (real, glass ones that you see through, the original ones), "What do you think would be a good way to get rid of roaches in a server without taking it down? (Orkin = no job)?, or ?Now, durn, How was it we were supposed to put the kernel into upper memory?? or any number of questions that they may never expect in an interview in ways that would probably not be expected.

If the interviewee actually spends more than 1.5 minutes looking for the shelf stretcher that I ask him to hand me out of the tool room, or the roll of flight line from the back of the truck, or the Magnetic Flux Reversal Tester lying on the workbench, the interview may be just about over. If the interviewee shows unwillingness to perform the requested action at all, it?s already over.
(E. I?m busy; most of my interviews are on the fly)

Being Cocky doesn't cut it and the quickest way to get cocky is to have a piece of paper that says that you know everything. After staring at that hard earned piece of paper a few times, you start to actually believe it and start to "Toot" your own horn. And that, my friend, is a really quick way to make your self look like a fool.
(Been there, done that and, yes, there's a T-shirt or two around here somewhere).

Oh, I'm certified all right. But I put those 30 some odd diploma's, along with the medals and decorations, in a box and hid them from myself. They tend to make me think I know more than I actually do.

I've come to realize that the really cool part is, knowing that I never actually will and have fun with it.

Keith Hailey

If you go with must have cert X or Y more usually A-Z inclusive, let's ignore lying boogers for now.

So aside from counting how many heads they have, whether they are likely to take a crap in your bin, you are now deciding whether in your professional opinion they should have been certified.

Given the HR numpties have only passed you candidates who jumped or perhaps sneaked through hoops, some of which are useless, how many useful people did they not pass you?

Last set of interviews I did 7/9 'highly qualified' candidates I was passed, would have been hard pressed to land a junior role, never mind the senior one I was interviewing for.

Certs are a nice money spinner for the big boys, and everytime some industry professional recommends them on a technical basis, I want to know who paid them.

Make you better at the job, possibly, be able to do it, my arse....

Mentos would be good too!

I am actually working on industry certifications but I'm really only hoping to get my foot in the door as a junior somewhere, at least until I've got some actual experience under my belt. I think too many people get their certs and then think they all of a sudden know it all. The thing is, from the 13+ years of experience I've got as a Desktop tech, working on a limited basis with servers... my certification tests are full of bogus extraneous information that I'll have to UNLEARN before I'll be able to get any real work done... There's the way they do it in the tests, and then there's the way it WORKS, and never the two shall meet.

Actually I find that on the tests they want the LONG answer, when a couple of clicks will do the same job.

and a probably a degree. They aren't without value in and of themselves, anything you learn something from, is good.

To me they are only fit for purpose in that they will give you a leg up to get a chance at the role.

The days where you could go the route I did bogged off decades ago. Go for the certs the HR numpties want, and get full value out of them. Seeing as they are near mandatory, any other course of actionis a waste of everybodies, time except CertsRUs...

Keep that long answer in mind, it's the one that will let you figure out how to create a user in Linux, Or VMS. It's the one that will let you code in Java instead of C# , set up a database in Oracle instead of SQL Server.

Trust me you'll need it....

I've been in this field since 1994, and learned everything I know the hard way. Nice to find someone in the hiring capacity that gets it, thanks for renewing my spirit.

You have to begin at the source, wherever they are coming from 1st. Then it's a matter of preventative maintenance. Borax is great for external surfaces but not to be used inside the equipment. There is an organic paste, usefull on hard to reach corners. WD40 kills ants on contact and windex will drop a spider quick. Good luck!!

Yeah, lazy hiring practices are among the biggest problems with certs.

i believe so, a newly graduate IT person with certification can't underdog an experienced IT person without certificates...and in my country Philippines, IT schools aren't even giving warning to student that IT certificates are very important mostly in working abroad, and upgrading IT skills here is very hard and expensive as well, so how can person apply for a new certificate if his skill isn't updated?

Early on I obtained 3 certs (A+, Net+, CCNA). The best decision I have made was to spend my time working on my CS degree rather than certs. No collection of certs will be more valuable in the long run than a good [key word used to exclude most online schools, UoP, etc.] degree. The very best jobs in computing are held by PHDs, and certs will never get you there. Although now due to DoD requirements, I'm forced to get a couple more certs, unfortunately.

I too am in the DoD and have to get certifications that I never had to before. 17 years of experience won't keep me at my job if I don't get the entry-level A+ cert. Seems kind of silly, but it's the way it is. Get on board or get left behind.

Kind of a silly statement: "The very best jobs in computing are held by PHDs..." Isn't that true in any industry??

I've been in the industry for 20 years. I've seen people with certs, people with degrees and people with hands-on training. None have been 100% as far as producing good techs but they haven't been complete failures either.

I guess it depends upon what you do. I've found that most people with just certs can't function outside their, very small, work bubble.

To me, a four-year degree is somewhat of a waste. The industry changes too quickly and what you learned in the first 18 months is almost worthless. You also work in a small bubble.

I would rather hire someone that has five years experience and has taken a few courses over someone with certs or a degree. I've found they work out best compared to the others.

State government here doesn't pay more for certs. I was on the cert track in 2002 and stopped paying the outrageous prices for tests after I discovered the cert wouldn't get me anything more for salary. I kept taking the courses (prepaid) but saved the money for something better.

Certs may have changed and now be more productive. I think memorizing answers and getting a cert is worthless. I hope these tests have been designed for the type of tech that's out there in the real world. If not, I won't fall into that trap again.


EMD

I've been in the industry for 17 years and hiring people for the last 10 years. I agree with you that the cert path, the degree path, or the straight experience path all have pluses and minuses as far as producing good technicians. For sure, the certified ones with little experience and no degree are the weakest candidates to me.

Completely disagree with you, however, about a four-year degree being a waste. The purpose of such a degree is not entirely to boost an exact hands-on skillset. It is to formulate a general way of thinking, including building a needed general concepts knowledgebase and skillset. In addition, a person who has completed a four-year degree has shown that he/she can stick with something through to completion. Saying that a tech who has taken a few courses is superior to someone who has a degree is utterly foolish. If two candidates both have the same level of experience but only one has a degree, the one with the degree easily gets the nod unless an obvious shortcoming for the educated candidate comes out in the interview.

And he has a degree. This one proves the point for the experience and a few classes end of the spectrum.

My evaluation of this young gentleman, so far, is that getting a degree teaches you to "Ask the Teacher" when things don't go as expected or anticipated. That seems to happen every few minutes. I haven't taught since 1992 and I can't get anything done when I have to stop what I'm doing every few minutes to point out the obvious. It tries my patience and I almost gave him his wallking papers yesterday for raising his voice at me when I tried to explain to him what he was doing wrong and how to fix it.

No, the degree is not a waste. I just wish that they'd include a few classes on things like, let's see, Tact would be good. Customer Service would be an exelent choice for a course subject. Interpersonal skills would be another. A decent expectation of what is expected as far as job performance is another (Daydreaming with Thumb in Rectum is not a a real world expectation). Real world examples in the theory classes would be kind of cool, too. And, like an electrician or plumber, should be taught business basics so he can use what he learned to survive on his own in case the individual doesn't land that dream position that every one of the grads seem to think is supposed to be handed to him upon graduation.

Week before last, another young man with an IT degree working with Acer/Gate/Machines (I just call them Frankenstien Systems now) was explaining to me why he was wanting to charge $129 for me to obtain the XP Activation Code for a system that one of my customer's had purchased and was out of waranty. My rather large sign on the main street now has a rather large, rather public display of why not to buy from Frankenstien Systems. Just wait.

When, a 4 year degreed punk tells a 25 year IT veteran that he doesn't know his donky from a hole in the ground, the punk is asking for more than a lawsuit. I could do something really great for his career, like give his boss the recording of him explaining why his valuable services have to be paid for to fulfill a duty that the customer purchased the day he bought the system. (Once I get the little messages saying "This Call May be Recorded", I make sure it is.) His lawyers would cringe at the part just before I told him that he was nuts and that I would no longer support ANY system manufactured by their firm.

I could also post his name right here on TR for the tech world to know who this air headed fool is and to avoid hiring him like the plague.

Well, I could. But I do believe in a little bit of mercy.

I still say that all a four year degree or any certification means is that the individual is officially prepaired to start learning their trade or the area of certification. It surely doesn't mean that they know what the Heck they are doing.

Keith Hailey