Discussion on:

Sure she's a good tech blogger, but what does she look like?

You are right. It's not fair that people, especially women, are judged on their looks (whether it worker, blogger, or day-laborer).

All we can do is try to influence the hiring committees at companies to look beyond looks and look at trustworthiness, skills, experience, education, and character.

As for blogging, someone said everyone is a jerk on the Internet. I just may be one, too.

http://www.xkcd.com/322/

XKCD really does hit the nail on the head a lot. Your post reminded me of http://xkcd.com/385/ which explains a lot of what's going on...

respectfully, this more to the heart of the matter:

http://xkcd.com/322/

xkcd.com ROCKS!

Love it...

I think that men and women are different in the way that they they on the whole, but there are always the exceptions to each. I think men can be more logic oriented, so they tend to migrate to fixing things. Women can be better at multi-tasking and relationships, so they migrate towards careers revolving people, like project management. I think that there are plenty of exceptions to each of those, and if someone can succeed at it, that's great.
I think the world of Toni's work, and I am at the very least entertained by her columns, in not informed. That has nothing to do with looks or gender, but her skill as a columnist. I think guys can typically shrug off negative comments, but Toni is also good at that, where as her friend is not able to. That would be the exception to the rule.

...I am so ugly, EVERYone looks better than I do.

You know when I need help with something I really don't care what gender has the answer or if they are young,old,ugly or a blue eyed talking duck. I am looking for a tech answer, not a date or mate. Are we really so shallow and stupid that we would deny or reject a person's expertise because they can't appear in Playboy or Playgirl? How utterly archaic and asinine. Maybe I will start the Outcast Tech Forums and Blogs site. Are you old, fat, too short, too tall, bald or overly hirstute but know your Tech? Join us at OTFB we feel your pain and their loss is our gain. Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

Are you old, fat, too short, too tall, bald or overly hirstute but know your Tech?

edit: runaway underscore......

how many categories do you have to fit in to join?

Sounds like an adult version of the high school band....

Sounds like an adult version of the high school band....

The primary qualification, of course, being the "adult" part. I don't see any need to put up with juveniles in this one.

Juvenile behavior, of course, is a completely different thing.

I completely agree with you. I do wonder, however, why your (or any other photo) is posted with your writing. If looks are truely irrelevant, then leave the photo off the site and use the space for the important content, unless, that is, you're hoping to make points with your readers (or somebody else). Challenge - Next time you post your photo, Use one that doesn't include an hour long make-up job and hairstyle. or don't use one at all, or use a pen name - Lots of writers do. Come on, we're all human here, right?

But there are plenty of male blog writers that have an image of themselves up on their site (or entries). And (I assume) they don't get the same sort of harassment.

And saying 'Come on, we're all human here, Right?' as a general excuse for acting like a Neanderthal?

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Letting people upset you when they voice ( or type theirs) can only lead to disruption in your day while they carry on their merry little way. For some people physical appearance is their main focus.I would suggest to these people that they should find a career that is more in line with their focus, maybe writing reviews for their local strip joint.

We should not insult Neanderthals, they were likely more intelligent that people who use "looks" or apperance to judge another.

One thing I have noticed is that in a male dominated field, we don't give a darn what other guys look like. However, we all look at the fairer sex and comment in our minds. Even Women do this about men...in their heads. The point is that as long as this is a male dominated field, you will not hear about the jerk women who do the same thing that the jerk men do, most of us don't say anything, but we do notice, just like the women notice. I would never make business decisions based on attractiveness though, intelligence is what I want in employees and coworkers.

You've reduced this discussion to it's pure form. The fact of the matter is I look like a geek, act like a geek and do geek things. I am loved by my wife and kids; I dont care about the rest. I have heard women describe me in all manners of offensive "visuals." OMG! Imagine that. Both sexes are guilty of it. The fact of the matter is that we're all human and do human things...... If you can't stand the heat, maybe it's time to visit a therapist

I think that the reason why there are pictures posted of the author or authors are because it is a way to tie the worker to the work. When one works in an office environment, you usually know who did the work. I think it adds a personal touch and ownership. If you don't have one, you can hide behind anonymity. Why would you want to do that, if your work is good or valid?

. . .on the head, Ipurcell. A big portion of the human brain is devoted to facial recognition. Research has shown that we learn better in a personal environment. Put those two together: we need a visual image to help make sense of information and integrate it into our existing knowledge.

Letting physical attractiveness interfere with our perceptions of a blog's worth says more about certain males' prejudices; not having the self-restraint not to blather publicly about it says more about our shallow, sex-soaked culture.

--Allen

Since Lodestone is invoking the "Research" word...
Assuming that judging a person based upon looks is only a male prejudice is simply wrong and ignorant. "Research" consistently finds that all humans, regardless of age or gender, imbue "attractive" people with attributes such as intelligence or "niceness". We're hard wired to make those sorts of assumptions. Learning to overcome these kinds of baseless assumptions is supposed to be part of being an adult.

Feeling OK about expressing ones prejudice as a non-sequitur response to someone's statement of technical expertise is yet another matter. Monkeys come in both genders

I judge people by their ability to communicate clearly, their knowledge of what they are writing about and their using language well. By that measure, there are a lot of ugly people on the Internet.

They be the lame and the halt.

Try compassion; not revulsion.

Hear!! Hear!! If you want to use instinct as an excuse for bad behavior, then go back to living in trees, (as even the Neanderthals knew better than to live by pure instinct).

The Neanderthals died off... well except for the mortgage executive sect that is...

After giving us fire, clothing, and religion.

They were a lot more advanced than some of the knuckle draggers I've seen on this thread and in the blogging world generally.

i know that first hand
Im aware i dont look like im good with comptuers i get told that every day but for all we know someone here could be a supermodel

yeah, but I don't like to boast about it!

:-P

I am the best photographer in my family, which means that either I will post a poor photo or go to a studio, which I don't feel like doing right now.

I can still add a personal touch with my picture. http://katharinehadow.ulitzer.com/

suppose I work in an Agile shop and, though I'm very good at it, I think it sucks and want to point out why it sucks ... I want anonymity; you don't need to see my picture to understand my written words

anyway, the topic is not pictures of the author, it's commentary about the appearance of female authors

Maybe to drag the likes of you into the debate.

I post a picture to find out what kind of person I'm dealing with. It's one of many tools available to figure out what kind of person you're dealing with. Most people (IT or otherwise) are not smart enough to consider their words before blurting their response. That's true in both print and in person.

Some may feel they're being unfairly tested. I say, "I'm protecting myself." I have no way of figuring out what the person is like on the other side of the chat. I'll use any tool available to see if the individual is worth chatting with or ignoring as noise.

Don't make a big deal about it by not posting a photo. You can use any image you want, it doesn't have to be a photo of you.
I'm a woman too and I work in an IT department in Panama (central america). I have to say no one treats me any different than the guys.
I did work in the US for 3 years in Miami and I did feel guys have a tendency to be more sexist over there (Miami, Florida). Not all of them of course but I would say about 85% do and about 2% of what is left over tend to side with the sexist guys to get along.

I would just suggest to not make your looks so prominent. And if anyone has a problem with you being a woman in IT, remember that is THEIR problem and not yours!

I do a lot of work with people of both genders from Central and South America and Europe. I have to admit that it really threw me for a loop when a lady just came up and hugged me out of the blue as a way of greeting after she hadn't seen me in awhile.

After I spent some time observing people's interactions in the offices, I just realized that it was a cultural thang and hugged back.

Here, in south-eastern Europe, it is completely normal for one man to hug and kiss 3 times another, if he hasn't seen him in a while!

in most cases ur right but not everyone in the us is sexist and being in miami (no offence to people from there) its one of the worst places in the united states to go if u dont want to run into that kinda jazz and such

You can't ask a female blogger why she posts her picture and unless you ask the men the same thing.

Also, if *you* were going to post your picture for the world to see, would you take a picture five seconds after getting out of bed? No, you should take pride in your personal appearance.

I agree with Toni Bowers. Appearance should not matter a bit. Everyone should stay on topic!

Calling him a caveman is an insult to cavemen. Don't they have enough problems from GEICO?

First, that was a decision that came down from above. If I'd had my way, my photo would not be there. Second, I just about spit my coffee at the screen when I saw what you wrote about "hour-long make-up job and hairstyle." I don't have the attention span for that kind of maintenance. The scenario was this: "Oh man, they told me I have to have a picture. Hey Eve, would you get the camera and snap one of me standing over by the vending machine?"

Want one of my sisters to clue you in on the salon life? I assure you they are EXPERTS at it! haha

I have a lot of experience with people spending an hour or more in makeup before appearing on air.

Toni didn't spend an hour in makeup before getting that picture made. The flash appears to have hit her directly square in the eyes as she is exhibitng redeye in the picture and squinting, where a real professional would have had her angle her face slightly and used an indirect flash. The human face is notoriusly difficult to light properly and knowing the tricks of the trade are the difference between those Polariods of you and your relatives in the scrap books and what you see in fashion magazines.

I agree and disagree with each of you. Ever since I have been in the work force females and males have been judged by their appearance.

In my humble opinion co-worker\clients want the work done right or they want the information to be accurate. I have heard many female clients state that my co worker is so good looking I hate to say it but many females have been just as judgmental as my male co-workers

People don't care what a person looks like they only care about quality over looks every time because they want the person that can provide the best service or information. I have never heard a client say "don't send the less attractive person" if their work was better

The issue that bothers me in the IT field is that if you are over 50 ( I am a 55 male) appearance means nothing it's your age that goes against a person.

I am unemployed (my last company went out of business) and will continue to be unemployed for some time not because I don't have the skill set, not because of my appearance I even have resorted to something as stupid as dying my hair ( I must say it looks good ) I don't care about the money it's not that I am wealthy in fact I could lose my house but I realize the economy is poor. I want to work I don't feel good about not being productive but most not all companies think younger is better

I have three daughters over 23 and I have taught each of them that one must produce a quality product or service to be competitive, continue to educate themselves in their chosen field and they must always stand up for themselves.

But as ssampier stated the "world is not fair" so each of us need to move on including myself and get over how we feel and do our best to achieve.

Perhaps if we are not judgmental others will not be judgmental, your right that part is just a fairy tale

Good luck to everyone!

Let's admit it. To much of the world at large a competent computer professional is the classic geek, a pasty white kid with pimples and broken glasses who has never seen a sporting event in their life, or an overweight pasty white adult male living in his mother's basement with a mind like a computer but no thought of anything unrelated to IT, except the sex he isn't getting. We all know that this stereotype is not true, and is in fact hogwash. Yet when it comes to hiring let an older well dressed athletic man, or an African-American or a women, or anyone who does not fit one of those stereotypes come in for an interview and it's "Thanks for coming, we'll let you know". Even a so-called "regular guy" that comes in would automatically get a negative reception. In fact my boss once told me when you are meeting with the customers as a programmer make sure you don't wear a suit or they won't think you're a "real" programmer.

So you would think we folks in the IT community would know that looks has nothing to do with competence. Yet Sexism and Agism and Racism and Stereotypes still persist in many of the blogs I've seen to the extent that I get so mad I can't read them anymore. Now some forums I've seen judge the content of a post before its allowed to be posted. Maybe it all blogs would carry out that kind of editing, these nitwits would soon see that they are not allowed to promulgate their trash. But as long as fools are allowed to see their trash published they will continue to do so.

A classic cartoon goes: On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog.

Well they do if you post a picture.

Whether people 'should' comment on it or not is irrelevant; they do. Sexism, heightism, reverence for strength and beauty are all alive and well in human society. If you are tall and good-looking, you have a better chance of getting into management (or winning at politics and entertainment) than if you are short or ugly.

No one makes up these rules; we simply reinforce them against each other with our vast diversity of individual preferences (i.e., there are only certain supermodels that I actually find attractive, yet on the whole, they all make money).

Sexism is also alive and well. The best study was from the Journal of Economic Analysis and Policy and reported in News of the Weird. They studied folks who had changed their gender via operations. These people had the same work experience and education before and after they had their sex change operations but the women who turned into males increased their earnings slightly whereas the men who turned into females saw a one-third decrease in earning power.

Probably need to 'fix' that 'problem' before worrying about snarky comments on the web. (The reason _fix_ and _problem_ are in quotes is because humanity is a herd of biological creatures that must reproduce well in order to survive).

I agree that appearances do tend to lead to preconceived judgements. It is unfortunate that women do seem to take the brunt of this however I am sure that there are men who get this at times also.

I am 6'4" and built like a linebacker and when I was first called to work on the network there were a lot of doubts until I proved myself. It seems that the notion was that I was good for lifting heavy things but intellectually they would be better off calling someone else.

In todays society there are templates that people seem to catagorize the IT staff fitting into which is crazy.

it's not just "today's society" ... whether we like it or not people have been making these kinds of judgments since people appeared on the planet

and look, Toni, we need to face facts here .. for every woman "victimized" by sexual stereotyping and objectification there's two more taking advantage of their appearance and certain "gender advantages" big time ... this is life, period

Here's a good article on gender stereotyping:

http://tinyurl.com/dzxs6o

I have a Cordura belt pack that contains a Buck 307, a Leatherman, a AA MagLite, and a pen. I have worn it for years (except when I was teaching...seems that in schools the Leatherman is a weapon, not a tool...sigh!).

I was told by the man that hired me for the job I'm in now that if I had been wearing that belt pack at the interview there would have been no question in his mind that I was the person for the job.

Women spend billions anually on clothes, cosmetics, plastic surgery, all for being noticeable. Meanwile, miillions die from famine and disease. Knock off the phony "1'm shocked" routine. You know perfectly well what you're doing.

More like all so men will give them an eye in order to be able to present their message or resume. So many men are still Neanderthals that if she doesn't come in looking dressed to the nines or as Betty Boob so the interviewer has something to fantasize about she has little to no chance of being hired though her resume may make all the male candidates look like Tinker Toy Technicians.

If I ever start a company I am hiring all the old fat dumpy folks I can find. I have seen too many people who make good eye candy but can't do diddly and I want folks with knowledge and capability unless I am an agent for models.

I have been hired once without an interview at all and a couple of times with only phone interviews. My resume and skills hired me not my looks and that is as it should be.

I personally resent every second I spend on makeup hairdos and clothes. (I haven't perceived a need for plastic surgery thank god.) Some women enjoy shopping and cosmetics but I think they've just decided that's their lot in life and they might as well make the most of it. As I am applying my mascara I resent all that time I could have been spending techifying. So why do I do it? Because if I just shower, throw on a pair of khakis and a polo I am invisible. Things go noticeably better for me when I tart up, and I don't mean to ******* level, just business makeup and an expensive haircut.

The only time makeup doesn't seem to matter is in certain women-only groups with a high number of lesbians. Otherwise, in typical mixed gender business situations, not only the men, but also the other women treat a woman better who has obviously spent some time on the her appearance.

what's the deal? did you waterboard your girlfriend to find out all the secrets?



so who's shocked? and how much have you donated lately to famine relief? what's the last tech toy you gave up to send money for third world medical care?

btw, if you haven't noticed, the guys are beginning to catch up on the personal appearance spending

I think most men would love to reprogramme their ROM chip. We're born sexist. I for one, would love to sit in a meeting with an attractive woman and not notice her beauty. But, thanks to MOTHER Nature, I'm programmed to see her as a potential mate 1st. to perpetuate the species. And she is programmed to attract the opposite sex. This is why women past the breedeing age still try to attract males, and vicea versa. Can't we all just get along?