Discussion on:

When it's OK to quit your job

I just quit my job the other day.

OK, we've all had at least one crappy, entry-level job where we were taken advantage of and treated like a pee-on. It's part of growing up and it's what prompted me to go to college. I learned alot about jobs that I didn't want to do for the rest of my life.

Something that I feel has been lost on the younger generation is a little something called work ethic. Too many people have developed the Holier-than-Thou attitude, feel they are irreplacable and think they are above having to do any kind of grunt work and if they are required to do so, they think they should be paid exhorbitant amounts of money to do so. (Lot's of people overseas are willing to do these grunt jobs for cheap, though. Remember that the next time you see a manufacturing plant close and ship their jobs out of the country.)

Has your son spoken up to his boss about his feeling as though he's being taken advantage of? And I don't mean, has he whined and complained to someone about it; I mean, has he requested a meeting with his supervisor, perhaps with HR in attendance to thwart any backlash? Perhaps he has, but your article only stated that one of his bosses 'learned of my son?s discomfort with the [cheer]' which gave the impression of hearing it through the grapevine.

While the daily rah, rah cheer sounds completely corny to me, how long does it last? 1 minute? Perhaps 2 minutes? Is he doing it on his own time or, is he getting paid to stand there and cheer like a dork? Again, totally corny but, is it going to kill him?

Unless a person is being put in some sort of physical danger, being forced to do something unlawful, etc., I feel it's never appropriate to just walk off a job. If your son hates his job that much, he should be out there looking and applying for another job. Once he's found that new job, he should be submitting proper notice that he's leaving. You never know when you're going to need a reference. I think a person should always have the next job lined up before quitting the current job. And, just because his bosses might be unprofessional jerks, your son (and anyone else to which you give career advice) should be taught to never stoop to that level. They're only going to screw themselves in the end.

And sometimes, it's important to walk off a job... for the message that it sends to the people who are making it worth walking away from. It's important to allow your principles to make a statement sometimes. Otherwise, the people who abuse their positions of power will never know why so many people are leaving... because those people leave quietly. If you leave with a bang (not physical violence, but a good wake-up jolt), it makes a big impression.

I've "abruptly" quit two jobs in my life. The first one, I'd been employed there 4 days when the sales manager had a screaming cursing shouting match with my manager and I simply decided it wasn't worth what they were paying me. The second was when I worked for a company that had arbitrary rules about when you can put in a request for a schedule change even if your last schedule request was denied, and then wouldn't tell you what schedules were available, you were just supposed to "Guess." I walked up to the shift supervisor and said, "I came to give my notice. You'll notice I won't be here anymore." and then I told them why.

A good work ethic is important from BOTH sides of the table, not just me the peon. The company I work for should have a strong ethic towards their people and then they can have my loyalty. My loyalty is earned, it's not hired.

While I agree with most of what you said Jessie, I need to point out that most of the people doing the abusing are so narcissistic that they will not get the message.

When I first started where I am currently, I asked why the turnover was so high. The employees indicated that management had the "do as I say, not as I do" attitude, and for good reason...I witnessed it.

Most of the managers and supervisors here don't have the training they need to be a leader.

And therefore, I am also currently conducting a job search. And with any luck, my phone will be ringing very soon.

"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock."

So; I agree with you Jessie (and Toni)

however, no one should have to put up with demeaning themselves performing for the entertainment of their managers. Work ethic means realizing that you have been hired to improve the financial standing of the company and the contract that you have with them means that you spend your time there working towards that goal. In the case of entry level jobs that usually involves a lot of labor and whatever endeavor the manager comes up with. Work ethic does not mean putting up with the arbitrary abuses from management, even if you are being paid for it.
I wouldn't quit because of the lousy cheer but, I would refuse to perform it. I would let them decide whether they want to fire me because of my refusal.
Lastly, he will never need a reference from this job in the future. I worked many jobs before my professional employment - assembly line, landscaping, restaurant, shipping and receiving, farm work. I can assure you that none of those jobs ever mattered to my professional career.

-nt-

At least in NC, if you are fired for cause you are not eligible for unemployment. I have a friend who was denied unemployment for that reason, and another friend who contested the unemployment claim of a former employee who she had fired for (real good) cause. To be eligible, you have to have worked full-time - p/t employees are not eligible - for a certain number of hours (measured in monts), and your employer has to let you go for reasons other than your own fault. You have to be laid off, you can't be fired.

It's never a good idea to get fired. It affects you as you seek other employment. You can't pretend you didn't have that job - if you lie about having held a previous job on your application for a new job, you can be eliminated from consideration if they do a background check, or fired later even if you did get the job.

So, you have to fill in that little "Reason for Leaving" field to fill out, and people do check references. It doesn't matter right you were, if you get fired, it looks bad.

My first IT job the asst manager would have a "migraine" every friday. He was originally one of two programmers and when the other quit he said he'd quit too unless they made him asst manager.

When I mentioned to my boss with HR present that people were noticing the Asst Mgr "sick" every Friday he offered to "take care of them" if I would name names completely ignoring the real issue of the asst mgr playing hooky each Fri.

I got the heck out of dodge as soon as I could. EVERY job since then has been better.

You must be an old dude like me.

Too many people today think that the employer owes them a job and they shold get paid for showing up. Guess what in life as well as at work you are going to have to do a lot of things you don't like to do. It is called being responsible and being an adult. Kids are not taught that today. They are taught that if things aren't jsut to their liking they should take their toys and go home. Maybe that is why jobs go off shore...a lot of those places still think it is honorable to have a job and pay your own way.

Jobs go offshore because people there will do the work for less than our minimum wage. As for owing me a job?...No! You are right; no one owes me anything. However, I might have to choose whether my salary and benefits are with dealing with abuse...or not.

they don't think they deserve $25.00 an hour plus benefits to sit on their a$$ and attach the same part over and over for 8 hours minus lunch and breaks of course.

Please, let me know you feel this way in the interview. Then you won't have to worry about me taking my "toys" (35+ years of business experience and IT skills) and going home. We won't have an agreement on work for pay ever.

I have worked for managers who felt that they were doing you a favor by granting you the pleasure of dealing with their plantation-style management. I tend to prefer working for someone who respects my skills and who is really glad to sign my paycheck at the end of the week.

If my manager does not repect what I do and is not glad to sign the check, then why am I there?

When I was 18 I worked in a now extinct fast food restaurant whose specialty was fried chicken. For those unfamiliar with the way that fast food chicken is fired, think pressure cookers filled with oil and breaded chicken. After watching a twenty-something assistant manager pour boiling oil down his front, effectively removing himself from the gene pool, my friend since kindergarten and me quit. Because we realized that the accident was due to the manager choosing to save money by not providing safety equipment, like pot holders and aprons. So, once the first aid squad showed up and took responsibility of the assistant manger that we were holding up, because he was in shock, it was adios.

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with you. You're talking about a completely different situation. We are professionals with families, financial obligations and a career to consider. Her son was a Home Depot (assumed from the give me an "H" statement) employee probably making no more than $10/hour. He's young with no family or financial obligation. Yes, if he was a network administrator at an MNC, the situation is different. Home Depot-type jobs are a dime a dozen. At that age, I would've quit too. Work ethic has nothing to do with it. You sound like the type of person that would stick with a job despite the fact that they rake you through hot coals.

When I was 16-18 working jobs like that, I had a great work ethic. They paid me to do a job and I did it. I tried not to burn bridges and maintain references, but who really cares at that age? If you did, you weren't living at that age. However, 10 years later, I care about that stuff very much and would do the proper 2 week notice standard. Holier than thou? You are the one that is holier than thou.

First, I have to make one observation. With due respect to the author of the original story, and without trying to question her impartiality, I suspect that anyone who reads this would first think: "Hey, isn't this a parent systematically defending her child?". When our child rushes in the house screaming and telling us "someone hit me!" what is our first--parental reaction? Do we ask: "What did you do before being hit?"

The foregoing observation notwithstanding, I can empathize with your son. I have gone through some of his experiences, specifically, working almost 70 hours/week and being paid for 40 hours. I did that as a college (undergraduate student).

After graduating from college, I faced the same discriminatory practices. At one point, my VP had to become involved. On my second job, I was subjected to discrimination again. Why did I continue?

In the first episode, I was an international student. In the second, I was still on H1-B visa and had not completed my studies (which I am actually still pursuing--and you will understand why).

I was learning and, in a sense, I knew gaining knowledge was more valuable than the short-term perks. I was thinking long-term, not short-term and therefore, though I needed money, I had decided to let go and focus on building my skills.

The second experience was a little different. I had earned my first graduate degree, two professional certifications in Web Development. I was no longer an alien. However, my tolerance zone had not been reached yet. In any life situation, I also set my tolerance zone. It is a matter of principle and strategic planning. Once the tolerance zone has been crossed, I make my move. Naturally, I am not a quitter, because quitters seldom win. But that doesn't mean I cannot quit. Again, once my tolerance zone has been crossed, I quit. But I plan my move. Quitting just for the sake of it is not wise to me.

When I supervised a talented team of colleges students, I repeatedly encouraged them to strive to better their education. Knowledge is power, and education provides you with knowledge that can allow you to unlock certain doors. I am glad most of the students I supervised have gone to earn at least their BA/BS degree. I know some who have earned their masters.

As a parent, allow me to ask you: Did it ever occur to you to ask your son to not just quit, but go to college and earn at least a bachelor degree? (if he's done so, please disregard and accept my sincere apologies). However, there are certain types of jobs none will dare ask a college graduate to do. You may not earn enough first, but at least, you would be doing a decent job. I am not making too much now, but my current salary is almost twice what my most recent job paid me. Furthermore, I earned my second master (Information Assurance) last year, and am now working on my doctorate dissertation in IA. I first decided to not quit--not yet- because I had:

(1). Established a goal
(2). Established a tolerance zone
(3). Put in place a quitting strategy

As long as item #2 had not been reached or crossed and that #1 was still realistically attainable, I had to be patient and bear. While working on #1, I kept on refining my strategy, reviewing it tactically. And once #1 had been achieved say 80%, I launched my quitting strategy. I quit. The job I accepted was not a well-paying one. But it allowed me to continue working on my long-term goal. Less than one year after quitting, I earned my second master and two years after quitting, I received a job offer that entails excellent growth opportunities.

Bottom line, I know--and again, I have a=seen and still see that at work- that many companies have really poor managers and some of the terrible work practices. However, if i were to advise a teen, I would focus less on teaching them quitting than setting long-term goals, developing strong work ethics, establishing a tolerance zone and building a quitting strategy. Quitting to just quit can prove disastrous.

Just my modest opinion and I have the right to be wrong and to learn from you.

Erick

"(Lot's of people overseas are willing to do these grunt jobs for cheap, though. Remember that the next time you see a manufacturing plant close and ship their jobs out of the country.)"

People lose their jobs because they didn't work hard enough huh? Right.


"I feel it's never appropriate to just walk off a job. "
"should be taught to never stoop to that level"

It's a matter of disrespecting an employee / employer relationship. Workers are tools of the company but they're also people, keep in mind your ambition and drive to help the business succeed won't matter if a company is facing financial crisis.

Work as hard as possible for the right people.

I wouldn't go after him with a weed-whacker. However, I would keep in mind that the number one threat of violence in the work place is not from terrorists, it is from disgruntled coworkers, therefore it is best to have a fully gruntled workforce.

If you son can put up with the hatred of management (it's probably time to start getting used to that anyways), then he should begin confronting them. They know how good a job he does. He can now say he isn't doing any extra work for extra pay. They may try to shame him into it, but a good manager will quickly realize that a worker is actually better than a mindless drone.

It ain't worth working for a bad manager so he ought to give his manager's a chance to see what sort of idiots they really.

And I would recommend trying to get fired over principle instead of quit. Everybody quits. When someone gets fired, the manager actually has to fill out paperwork and now there is a record of when the work started slowing down.

"... it is best to have a fully gruntled workforce."

If managers would learn this little lesson, vast amounts of the rest of their problems in productivity, earnings, etc would just melt away.

I am nearly doing it at the moment, but with the way things are at the moment i have to stay, i don't want to be without a job it would drive me nuts. Lets look on the bright side i just seen a job that i might go for

I'm an IT person too. Am ready to bail on my job. Information Security. Why do companies complain about lack of IT folks and then treat us like dirt?

seeing how this is an IT related site and all.

When did that happen?

Removed your oxygen and while you were "out" IT took over.

As Hal is taking a breather (pun intended)you may now rejoin the program already in progress...

Seriously, if you can pay your bills and still have enough left over to have some fun with, why leave? Especially now?

However, if you're like me and started out doing grunt work, got extra training and certifications to handle more responsibilities, was given more responsibilities and still get paid a grunt salary, you've got a reason to leave.

If people act like dicks on top of that, adding insult to injury, it's time to leave.

That is exactly why I am on my way out.

ROFLMAO -- that was so 1950! I didnt think that anyone still did that!!! LOL

So next time ask yourself Is This Good For The Company.

Bill Lumbergh: Milt, we're gonna need to go ahead and move you downstairs into storage B. We have some new people coming in, and we need all the space we can get. So if you could just go ahead and pack up your stuff and move it down there, that would be terrific, OK?
Milton Waddams: Excuse me, I believe you have my stapler...

Both the place where Toni's teenage son works at and the qoute from "Office Space" sounds too much like VMC especially their Game Test Labs. Personally, I have no intention of letting VMC know when I get a new job, and I really doubt they are going to notice when I stop showing up.

All I can suggest is to look for a better job and give the impression that you are going to "grin and bear it" with management's blatent stupidity and poor/sub-human treatment of you and your co-workers.

Although the weed whacker bit sounds like it would be fun, like Toni I have no desire to spend time in jail. When your employer treats you like crap and takes you for granted, it is their way of saying "feel free to look for another job and don't worry about letting us know."

Rama K. Brooks, Project+

I also work for this "H" company. We don't do it every day but on occasion we still do it. If he doesn't want to do it there are several ways out of it, such as saying no right to the manager's face. Nothing says he has to do it at all.

I think the "W" company does it too.

This happened with my daughter at the same chain, believe me, she doesn't need a cheering staff - she's a pretty motivated kid.

I asked her to pursue where this idea came from and she said HR. Get this, in her store they actually told her she needed to do the cheer or they would look unfavorably at her. This reminds me of many of Kevin Wheeler's discussions of why the perception of HR is where it is.

She quit, and so did a lot of other individuals, leaving this store pretty much in the lurch. So what goes around comes around.

Which goes to prove there's nothing "human" about HR. I too take a dim view of most HR initiatives. They are trying to create some sort of Utopian organization where everyone thinks the same, acts the same and looks the same, which totally ignores basic human nature and is thus doomed to fail.

My father, who spent 20+ years in the Unemployment Compensation field at the state level always used to say that HR departments were better when they were called Salary and Benefits AND that was their job: They made sure the pay was correct and appeared on Friday, and then they made sure the health insurance was paid on time.

The move the "Human Resources" gave them too much power and far to much of a gloss of professionalism.

Know what you think it's reasonable to put up with, and know the risks you're willing to take. I don't think most problems happen all at once, so when I start seeing problems, I do 2 things. I make a list of what I can do to fix them, and I start looking at the job market and making sure my resume is up to date.

I don't think it is ever ok to just quit, even in his position. That to me shows bad character. I think that your son should put in two weeks notice, even if he hated the company. When you son becomes a manager, and people just up and quit and put him in a bind, how is he going to like it? To teach him to quit is teaching him that when things go bad, run away. He could also stand up for himself and pull the management aside and let them know his thoughts, and that since they keep assigning more responsibilities, then maybe a pay raise is due. He could take his skills to the competitor's store too. Why burn a bridge by quitting?

If your state has a will to work law, the people of the state have stated that the employer and employee can walk away from a position with no notification or repercussions.

If it is acceptable for business to terminate an employee or their position for any legal reason, then business must accept that it is okay for the employee to walk for any legal reason.

If her son becomes a manager, I hope that he will be wise enough to understand that employees are valuable and not treating them with respect and dignity will quickly lead to some painful lessons in management theory.

A business culture that is using constant negative reinforcement of employees is neither healthy nor successful. I would encourage Toni's son to draft a speech to deliver during the "cheer" to tell the management staff exactly how their actions made him feel. His closing line should be something along the lines of:

"... due to the constant negative commentary given to me while management gave me additional duties to be performed beyond the scope of my regular dutires caused me to suffer both physically and emotionally (please see attached records from my health care provider).

Recognizing that my current employers have created a hostile work environment, I hereby am resigning before I can be damaged further.

I plan to discuss options with legal counsel."

At the bottom he should sign his name, hand it to the manager in charge of cheering and then talk to a lawyer. Offer them the maximum of the case on retainer the law allows and let the lawyer see how much they can get out of them.

A number of businesses pull these kinds of tactics as they realize the number of people that will file a suit is small; but, the negative publicity will usually get them to the table making offers to just make it all go away.

If most people had ethics beyond lining their pockets at everyone else's expense, we wouldn't have the economic mess we do now.

There's the answer, sue em...... Gotta love this type of thought. It's a small world and burning bridges always comes back to bite you. Also, remember this, there are always two sides to the story.....Best I can tell from the original blog, this was an entry level job and they can basically ask / assign him any task. I'll bet no lawyer would take the case.

Also, we learned everything we needed to learn when we were 5. Two wrongs don't make a right. Take the high road. Talk to management and let them know how you feel. If they don't address it, find another job and then put in your two weeks notice.

however, does it not put a person in a bind when a company fires or lays off without notice? What about while you are on vacation?

It goes both ways ya know.

I heard on the radio this morning about a company that held a fire drill as a mechanism to get many people who were being laid off out of the building.

from paranoid managers because they know how bad they have been bending the staff over. They expect retaliation and freak out and do stupid things like this.

I have been tasked (in the past) with walking someone outsode for a smoke, and then having to let them go -- and sending soemone back in for their car keys and jacket

really NT

been misbehaving, they get paranoid about retaliation. Then they come up with stupid things (like you mentioned about the fire drill) for damage control.

Yeah tell me about it, I came back from 3 days off for my birthday to be retrenched !!!!

That was back in November and it bloody hurt..

Since that, I've been searching for a job back in IT, and finally started one last week at a small IT company with a hefty pay cut, but that's the way the market is at the moment...

Taking the high road is always the best way. I've had to ask for my old job back once!

She didn't suggest that he just up and quit the job one day. I believe her column was more about when to make the decision to leave a job, and consider ways to move towards that goal. People quit all the time with two weeks notice!

But, I agree with the suggestion that he at least discuss the issue with management. My suggestion is that he approach whichever manager or 'senior' worker and discuss the issues with that person. There may be a mid-point between quitting entirely and continuing serving as a company slave.

I'm sure Toni's son enjoys the job, or at least, enjoyed it until things were piled on. I'm hoping he's able to find a solution without taking drastic steps, particularly in the current economy.