Discussion on:

10 signs of incompetent managers

Making decisions based off of which VP she/he wanted to please.

This "wishy-washy-not-making-a-decision" trait is really bad for a manager to have. Decisions need to be based on facts and reality of what is happening NOT who to please!!

Out to please VIPs in the company is a trait common to most managers.

Bad managers invariably have a very biased view, do not take the time and trouble to form ACCURATE assessments, are very opinionated with their OWN opinions, regardless of fact; are HYPERCRITICAL and have ridiculous expectations of employees. They denograte instead of trying get genuinely plausible improvements. They will criticize employees to the hilt rather than genuinely trying to help.

If you have such a manager, try to get a job ELSEWHERE, before you become a victim of the manager's complete and utter, total incompetence.

A bad manager will set out to criticize this post! They are completely incapable of constructive criticism and in particular constructive self-criticism! Watch out for the flame posts in reply to this posting!!!!

I totally agree with your post, or rather I agree with the post you're replying to. Luckily my current manager doesn't give me this feel. When he does try to please something he informs the team about that. "We made this decision to make sure that guy1 was pleased it won't cost us that much time and we can get on with the project." something like that.

Anyway back to what I wanted to say; to say that your post was constructive in any way with such language is a JOKE

Sorry Alex the previous poster is correct. You need to get a clue!

First I would like to start off by saying; anyone that criticizes this post in any way is a very bad manager.

Secondly, anyone that makes a list of 10 reasons why anything is anything, is a joke. Surely there are more than 10 signs, why limit the list to 10?

10 reasons that this article is stupid....

Because no one wants to read 100 reasons on an internet message board.

cause 10 is better than 2? and when the 10 are informative - you can take what you want and leave the rest. When only 2 hostile statements are made, well, you tend to want to ignore them both. Oh, and this reminds me of something I recent said of social security:

1. we are always right.
2. if we appear to be wrong, refer to rule #1.

So instead of just criticizing the person who actually wrote an article that said something, why not say something? BTW, for me, the boss who uses the two points I made above, is pretty obnoxious to work for and can make a life pretty miserable. I liked the ten...and probably could have been 100 since bad bosses can come with so many dysfunctional habits.

http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/10things/

For example:

10 cool things you can do with a USB flash drive
10 Windows XP services you should never disable
10 ways to get the most out of Bing
10 great ideas from five great bosses
10 reasons Linux should be your netbook operating system

Your get the picture.

If there was only ten things, people wouldn't be writing books (OKAY, so some people would still be writing books, but not as many...) or getting degrees in the subject.

to chaz. This is the most common bad management trait.

... is a necessity for a manager to keep his or her job. It is only sad if this is their primary focus. If, in all other aspects, they are a good and respected manager, then they are doing their job, both for the VIPs, and for their subordinates.

Don't throw away a manager just because they want to please the boss. Shouldn't we all want to please the boss?

Ending an argument with"anyone who disagrees with this is blah blah blah" is poor arguing technique i'm afraid and is a sign of immaturity. I like "top 10 lists" because they encourage me to think about the issues. I rarely agree with all the points but that's OK. To blinly accept any top 10 list as gospel demonstrates an inability for independant thinking. Unlike you, i welcome criticism of this comment.

But so will English teachers, non-management IT professionals, etc. Perhaps he is enjoying the HYPERCRITISISM of his manager because he himself is incompetent?

"Watch out for the flame posts in reply to this posting!!!! "

With an argument such as yours, did you really expect anything less?

most managers that i have seen have self expansion in mind. not to say that is bad but with out the team to get you there its no different than power running a character in a game, good that you got there but what did you miss on your way? Self improvement is important but not at the cost of your team. remember the old saying there is no "I" in team? managers have a responsibility to do what the job that the company hired them to do. if your job descriptions included kissing the vp's butt then go for it. other wise do your job do it well and go home.

The extreme of this is what I call the tissue-paper manager. They are so much "company people" that they essentially parrot back anything their bosses tell them (even if it is contradictory) and don't seem to have any opinions of their own. They do not go to bat for their team and provide as much protection or organization as tissue paper.

Luckily this type of manager doesn't last very long.

they get promoted.

or they become apartment managers who only know how to to the line and not serve the residents.

How about this; when the manager would have a problem with someone on his team, he would tell the individual that the "team" was complaining rather than himself. It usually creates a lot of stress and distrust among fellow teammates.

Completely wrong and points to incompetent manager. The manager has the responsibility of team's well being and productivity and should be able to handle this situation using own authority

How about the manager who forms some sort of friendship with the poor performer of the team. As a result they then look the other way while that individual makes their own hours, can't do their job without mistakes or help from peers, and slacks off.

The manager would even to to the trouble of taking a single project and carving small sections out to the other, overloaded team members so that the overall project would be a success because the 1 poor performer could not be trusted to do the project alone (and has a track record of failure and recovery issues as a result of their projects). The end result is the entire team gets the praise and not the true contributors thus protecting the 1 poor performer and demoralizing the rest of the team.

Thankfully I believe in Karma, this manager has been demoted and no longer has the 1 poor performer as direct report (has none actually) so hopefully Karma will catch up to that individual too. The person's reputation is well known amongst the peers and many outside management from the team.

my manager is one of them! Only regurgitates to us what his boss tells him. Even got a company car same as his boss so he could be in his little 'Skoda Club'. Pathetic!

I think a manager that like to point fingers when things go wrong in a bid to cover his backside is the worst breed of them all

Managers who refuse to praise
Managers who refuse to share credit
Managers who manage the job instead of the employees......

I could go on and on.....

Let us not overlook nepotism and its storied history of dreadful management skills. Baby girl can only do right.

Complaining about the Admin staff to the Tech department, and doing the same in reverse doesn't improve your abilities with either team.

Protect your own team from "corporate" politics, and protect the "corporate" from your internal team dissensions.

BE THE BUFFER!

couldn't agree more

i've been working for a manager who has many of these characteristics for some time now and its bringing down the team.

what can an employee do to deal with or help a manager overcome some of their managers short comings ?

I would recommend this book - How to Make an Appeal, from IBLP. It gives great principles on how to make an effective appeal and can be used in any circumstance. Be proactive and be the catalyst to make positive change! Cheers!

Here's a link to the book:
http://store.iblp.org/products/MB4/

Generalisations can be dangerous, and I regard the 'treat them like kids and they will behave like kids' as an example, and it is mismatched with the generalisation about treating employees like adults. Take it from someone who has a qualification in the hard sciences and a qualification in psychology, any stimulus merely increases the probability of a behaviour\cessation of a behaviour. Not even stimulating a single neurone causes an action potential, it merely increases the probability of one.

FWIW, the stuff on consultants and procedure following could have been aimed at the current British government, who've been inflicting precisely these things (box ticking culture, e.g.,) on the British people, in the name of political correctness. It's a pity, but I doubt if any of these buffoons will read your article. Maybe if you started writing for the Telegraph or the Times?

Zwort, you're bang on the money when you say that our current government is as bad. Not only are they obsessed with box-ticking politically-correct management themselves, they've created an atmosphere where everything else is full of politically-correct box-ticking managers as well. All our public services are afflicted with this 'management culture', and everyone is now called a manager. Your local policeman is now a 'beat manager', your local fire brigade have done away with sub-officers and station officers, they're now 'crew managers' and 'watch managers'. And don't even mention education...

Everywhere you look these days there are Managers who couldn't manage their own backsides but who know how to talk the talk, use the buzzwords, form committees, impress other managers, and earn huge salaries (usually at the taxpayers' expense) whilst not actually doing anything very productive. What we need is fewer managers (a LOT fewer!) and more leaders.

Rant over!

Over on this side of the pond, I play a game called buzz-word bingo....I lay out all the hackneyed phrases like "value added" and "win-win" etc. in a 5 x 5 grid. During the meeting, I check off the ones that I hear. When I get any five in a row -- BINGO!, it is my time to excuse myself from the meeting.....

These lists of attributes are to prompt discussion. Certainly there are exceptions, seems like several are taking exception to #10 which I equate to poor planning. I would use this list more for introsepction and information to take under advisement. Additionally projecting the list onto people within your own org, as I see in some entries, as validation, seems petty.
I believe a compelling attribute to break into the Top 10 would be to transfer blame to direct reports. Good leaders tend to take ownership of issues within their influence without hesitation or qualification. Going along with that is loyalty. I appreciate leadership that act as political barriers for the people that do the work.
Certainly generalizations but helps me to stay grounded and avoid becoming a caricature.

And by bipolar I mean she acts one way with management and another with her staff. Instead of treating everyone the same, her staff are treated with condescension even when the issues brought to the table are valid. Yet, no matter what happens in a meeting, she will end every one with the comment, "Just remember, my door is always open if you have any issues..." She's also great at making a blanket statement regarding processes and procedures even if only one person is not following them. She's quick to anger and point the finger, but not to praise when it's well deserved. She's also made her opinions regarding people from the US quite clear (she's from another country), and they are not favorable. My question is, why the hell are you even here? She will not listen to what her staff, all of whom have been with the company a lot longer than she has, because she wants to change everything, no matter if she truly understands the situation or not.

>She's also made her opinions regarding people from the US quite clear (she's from another country), and they are not favorable. My question is, why the hell are you even here?

I had this happen when working for a US subsidiary of a Japanese company: One Japanese senior manager rarely passed up an opportunity to badmouth Americans, but would never leave his stateside posting because the standard of living was so high.

America would be great if it weren't for all of the Americans... =P

We miss you Kenji (ok, not really).

Change yourself.

Managers, like everyone else, are needed. I am not sure for what, but they are needed.

Like everyone else, they come with years of baggage. Some good, some bad.

Whatever sitution your manager is in, don't dispair.

Managers, like everyone else, are trainable.

It just takes a bit more work to train an "imcompetent manager".

Don't give up. The results are worth working hard for.

There is nothing like having a well trained manager.

Doug

I am one who has been sometimes subject to analysis paralysis, and long hours is another not-so-shining example of behaviors.

However, #10 is sometimes caused by rapid growth of a company without growth in resources or automation to match.

Where would you put "failure to hold subordinates accountable"?

The VP at my old company has that in spades. Their poor planning and/or execution or outright lying resulted in needless hours for me and my staff which no amount of protests could overcome. And no funding for automation to improve processes nor adequate time to implement, primarily because the VP does not really understand what software can do for you.

Case in point, implementing ITIL-based processes several years ago. Instead of seriously implementing a tool with an adequate CMDB to collect and make information available to the various process staff, he wanted it in spreadsheets. We attempted to implement a SaaS solution but the vendor could not customize it adequately for our purposes. Still provided lots of information that the VP simply would not believe. So a year later they have punted on the SaaS product and have implemented the CDMB in Excel. This for a 3000 person, 14 global site company with ~4000 workstations, ~600 servers and at one point ~40,000 different software components actually installed, with something like 18 different major/minor/build combinations of MS Office and over 600 databases in active use...

The Peter Principle states that "Every manager rises to their level of incompetence." Then guess who we have making hiring decisions. And the snowball grows...

...is a fallback for weak minds. Of course, it happens, but it isn't necessarily the rule. Many managers are competent, and care about both their superiors and their subordinates, and focus primarily on getting the job done.

We tend to rag on bosses (yes, I'm guilty too) for things we disagree with, when we often really don't know the whole picture, and the manager doesn't always have time to explain the whole picture to us. Give 'em a break--unless you're sure they don't deserve one. Then, the best thing to do is try to find another job.

Probably not the best to qualify the Peter's Principle. I do not think that you ever read the book. Anybody can be incompetent at any level, from a clerk to the CEO or the President. His principle simply says that we all keep getting promoted, until we reach our incompetence level. Peter never said that all managers were incompetent.

There are things from the book that I don't agree with, but puts out several interesting points.

The Peter Principle is a valid sociological phenomenon. You get promoted if you do a good job. You stop getting promoted when you are unable to do your current job. Thus, posts _tend_ to fill with people who cannot do their current job very well.

Best quote is from a follow-up book called Peter's People: A bureaucracy is like a cess pool--the largest chunks always rise to the top.

To give every promotion a probationary period. If it doesn't work out go back to your old role where you were great, or create a new role to acknowledge that they are better than their old role but not good at being a manager. Perhaps DBA ->head IT-> "data ninja".

The problem with this I suppose is once you've promoted someone they forget the complement really quickly and if you demote them it will be a bitter insult and they'll likely leave. Oh in a perfect world people would be humble enough to admit that things aren't working and they don't deserve the role they got promoted into.

I have a cousin who's husband kind of did what will happen to someone that doesn't like how they get treated: he had no clue how to be a machinist. Got fired in a week from a place. Got somewhere else and told them a line I guess about how he studied machine shop in highschool and had a month of experience at this big company. Anyways lasted a couple months at the second place. After a few go arounds I think he actually learned enough to be good enough to not get fired. A manager that didn't work out could use his stellar track record at whatever he was before and the fact that you promoted him as a foot in the door to another place hoping they are too nice and won't ever call him on his incompetence.

you are SOOOOOOOO right!

Surprisingly, such managers who "manage" their boss well, move up the chain very quickly!!!

one of my previous manager (Pete Doyle) had told me "manager works for the team" (and he used to). Any Takers???????

Recently I consulted for a company where CIO showed all 10 signs of incompetence... Unfortunately he had a more than deep personal relation with his director. Not to mention he covered tax frau... (well this is for authorities).

When I was younger this kind of people (who survived indefinitely in a company despite unbelievably poor performance) were called "ratocorp" (from "corporate mouse"): a plague that feeds from what is left, procreate a lot and is extremely hard to exterminate.

Went to an interview for a new position, ?new? manager on the interview panel. I advised beforehand that I required a projector to show a PowerPoint presentation-guess what, no projector. Fortunately I had prepared enough hard copies of the presentation for the panel (had some knowledge of the competencies of the panel). Didn?t get the job and was informed afterwards that I knew too much and the manager and the CEO didn?t want to be shown up. The Project I was applying for still hasn?t been completed and a new on is about to commence that requires the original one to be in place. HaHaHa!!!

It is always very interesting to watch people who have strong views on management, perform if and when they cross over. If only it was as easy as when you are dreaming.

And hurried back to be a technologist.

What I discovered as a technologist turned manager in a misfortune 500 company is that management is dreadfully incompetent and pretty much irrelevant. If the company / agency has good workers then it has a good chance of staying afloat.

I found myself surrounded by narcissists, alcoholics, drug abusers, narcissists, psychopaths, liars and thieves. I guess murder was optional. My favorite incident was my so-called "peer" was discussing IT technology needs for the business with the vice president of budget and finance. The "peer" got a project I was doing cancelled because he did not understand the need for ftp at remote plants and did not know what tcp/ip was. And I'm guessing that nearly all the managers coming here to Techrepublic.com at LEAST know what tcp/ip is.

The good news is that I got my old job back [at a greater salary than I could have ever dreamed of as a manager] and have been very happy [except for the bad management decisions which forced me to work long hours so payroll/personnel and budget/finance could continue running]. The best revenge is living well, they say.

And the management at Containerboard Packaging at Weyerhaeuser where I was a manager? Not only is the IT Unit management gone, but the whole business was sold off to International Paper. No one is left. All the management lost their jobs and are no more.

The Universe seems to balance out. It has yet to be seen what will happen to the two managers just under the temporary interim IT director who are married to each other.

In the meantime, you good folks who are most excellent technologists, enjoy what you have [and don't work too many long hours] and do not be tempted by the call of management. It isn't what you think it is. Instead, it is compromising your principles for no particularly good reason for purposes which are at best questionable, near as I can see.

Besides, the inherited skills to be a great technologist are quite different from those to be a great leader. Don't try to do both. You may good at one, but you'll really suck at the other [generally speaking].

After 14 years of senior management I can say that the world of management is dominated by over promoted, incompetent, sycophants who spend their time undermining their junior staff and their colleagues to disguise their own inability to do their job. It is a very rare event when you find a manager that shines - male or female.

Having worked with, been, and interacted with many different levels of management within IT, long hours are somewhat a requirement.

Currently, my hours are less than they have been in the past, but with 15 hats to wear and the limitations on staffing, all parties work extended hours.

So, I would be cautious about #10. If there are long hours being worked and little is being accomplished, I would agree with you. Alternately, if the long hours drive substantial progress necessary to "keep the ship afloat", I would wear it as a badge of honor.