I am a female supervisor, and I must say that in my own experience women have been far more evil then men.
Again this has been my experience and I don't mean to state that all women are bad.
To this poor gentleman who is being harassed, I say get a mini tape recorder and keep in with you at all times.
Women want equal rights then they should be subject to the same harrassment rules as men.
So he needs to protect himself from these monsters. You can get a good cheap recorder for under $100.00. Also keep notes of dates, times, places, who was present and things that happen. Then if necessary get yourself a Damn goog lawyer.
Good luck to you, and I hope women and men take heed to how they treat others in the workplace.
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unless any party included knows about its existence prior to the recording. The best bet is to follow what I wrote at http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-12850-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=320703&messageID=3197375&tag=leftCol;post-1441.
But yes any victim should have a personal journal of sort including dates, times, what was said, and any copies of correspondence, and logs of any verbal communications about such incidents. But the 3 steps must be followed.
But yes any victim should have a personal journal of sort including dates, times, what was said, and any copies of correspondence, and logs of any verbal communications about such incidents. But the 3 steps must be followed.
It may be enough to play the recording back to the harasser, their boss, HR or your attorney. That would have plenty of shock value.
Even in court, recordings made without the other party's knowledge may be admitted as rebuttal or perjury evidence, or at the discretion of the judge.
Even in court, recordings made without the other party's knowledge may be admitted as rebuttal or perjury evidence, or at the discretion of the judge.
The laws of states vary on tape recording.
As an example, in Texas only ONE party to a conversation has to agree for the recording to be admitted without a warrent. So, assuming that you consent to recording yourself...
As an example, in Texas only ONE party to a conversation has to agree for the recording to be admitted without a warrent. So, assuming that you consent to recording yourself...
Contrary to popular belief most courts worldwide will accept such recordings or even answering machine tapes. It is also completely legal in many cases to tape telephone ocnversations without notifying the other party.
The telecom act and privacy laws state that you cannot record a conversation as a THIRD party unless ONE of the two other parties is aware of it. Though it is often challenged on a case by case basis and can be overruled by the Supreme Court for special circumstances, it will stick for the most part.
In other words, I can't secretly tape a conversation between two people but if someone asks me to tape a conversation, within reason, or if someone tapes a conversation themselves, especially for legal purposes, it is just fine.
I worked for the CRTC monitoring and recoding sales calls from call centres and had to rely on this law constantly. I also used it in my divorce and have seen it used many times since while sitting in on similar cases.
The telecom act and privacy laws state that you cannot record a conversation as a THIRD party unless ONE of the two other parties is aware of it. Though it is often challenged on a case by case basis and can be overruled by the Supreme Court for special circumstances, it will stick for the most part.
In other words, I can't secretly tape a conversation between two people but if someone asks me to tape a conversation, within reason, or if someone tapes a conversation themselves, especially for legal purposes, it is just fine.
I worked for the CRTC monitoring and recoding sales calls from call centres and had to rely on this law constantly. I also used it in my divorce and have seen it used many times since while sitting in on similar cases.
As a company, we do note on the on hold that some calls may be recorded, but thats a nicety, not a requirement. All calls to the call centre are recorded, and the agents are fully aware (they signed a document). Some calls are reviewed for training purposes. But in the rarish occasion that a customer abuses an agent, we have used that recording as well. The use of that goes through HR though.
James
James
In many cases it is a third party that records conversations for validity and to ensure that legal guidelines are eing met. Such as the case with online sales of subscriptions, LD service, cable etc.
THis was a requirement set otu by the CRTC after they saw the number of US subscribers who said they hadn't agreed to take Sprint (or whoever) and were switched without knowing, in Canada that is impossible. In Canada, firstly the request is sent to the local line provider who again calls the customer and tries to win back their business before THEY switch the customer's switching circuit over. Secondly, all people who say they want to switch are transferred to a third party verification company that runs over the plans details and confirms they will be leaving their local carrier for long distance and will recives a bill from both companies after that time. In every case, if they so much as ask a simple question, the verification is terminated and the call is passed back to the sales rep. That way, reps can't scam sales to win bonuses or comissions, they can't switch people period. If they have lied or misrepresented the product enough to confuse teh customer, the verification questions will raise questions and the call is passed back to a sales rep again for clarification.
I used to LOVE turning up in court to see some yokel who thinks he's going to get out of a $300.00 LD bill by saying he was switched withotu knowing. I'd pull out that tape and play it for the judge, with the guy saying "GREAT I can't wait to leave BC Tel and get a cheaper service!"
"But I saw it on the news people are switched without knowing!"
My comment, try watching Canadian news next time.
Just a bit of a segue, sorry.
THis was a requirement set otu by the CRTC after they saw the number of US subscribers who said they hadn't agreed to take Sprint (or whoever) and were switched without knowing, in Canada that is impossible. In Canada, firstly the request is sent to the local line provider who again calls the customer and tries to win back their business before THEY switch the customer's switching circuit over. Secondly, all people who say they want to switch are transferred to a third party verification company that runs over the plans details and confirms they will be leaving their local carrier for long distance and will recives a bill from both companies after that time. In every case, if they so much as ask a simple question, the verification is terminated and the call is passed back to the sales rep. That way, reps can't scam sales to win bonuses or comissions, they can't switch people period. If they have lied or misrepresented the product enough to confuse teh customer, the verification questions will raise questions and the call is passed back to a sales rep again for clarification.
I used to LOVE turning up in court to see some yokel who thinks he's going to get out of a $300.00 LD bill by saying he was switched withotu knowing. I'd pull out that tape and play it for the judge, with the guy saying "GREAT I can't wait to leave BC Tel and get a cheaper service!"
"But I saw it on the news people are switched without knowing!"
My comment, try watching Canadian news next time.
Just a bit of a segue, sorry.
ALL parties to a conversation must know that the recording is being made before it can be used in court (Of course, that does not apply to recordings made pursuant to a legally obtained warrant).
In other states only one party to the conversation has to know about it.
I believe that in conversations involving people in multiple states, a person in a one party rule state may record the call, but the recording cannot be used as evidence in a legal action in a two party rule state's courts.
Answering machine tapes are simple. You obviously know you're being recorded.
In other states only one party to the conversation has to know about it.
I believe that in conversations involving people in multiple states, a person in a one party rule state may record the call, but the recording cannot be used as evidence in a legal action in a two party rule state's courts.
Answering machine tapes are simple. You obviously know you're being recorded.
I think, by definition, that would include a variance in some places (we'll pretend "some states" are places too then, I suppose) and is why I didn't say "all courts".
Many companies include policies that suggest an employee has "no expectation of privacy" while on the premises. There may be direct language pertaining to video surveillance or technology monitoring, but the wording may be vague enough to allow the recording to hold up in court. The wording may not even limit the recording to official company actions and may include anyone on the premises who is conducting the recording.
Hi, I am surprised seeing this much of response to this issue! it means, there are lot of men are suffering this?! poor you gentlemen!
I had a situation at my current job where a woman was often generating all types male bashing banter on a regular basis.
I complained about this openly once, they (my all-female-peers) almost kept it in check. When one would get started on male bashing, another would pipe up, "now wait, you can't say that, there is a penis in the room." Having been downgraded to "penis" was totally unacceptable and I put those bitches right in their place each time it came up.
On the last occasion, the main instigator and my roles in the team were to be in a certain area working together pretty much alone. She demonstrated her mastery of verbal abuse pretty well mainly by asking me about some personal detail of my life and then restating it as evidence of some profound character flaw on my part. When I pointed out this bullying behavior to her she tried to tell me that I was being mean to her.
Over the course of the day this abuse escalated to her throwing things (ie taking off her shoes and throwing them at me) and actual punching and shoving.
At the end of the day I emailed my supervisors describing what had happened and that I would try to take care of it one on one with her. I then emailed her explaining how I don't deserve that treatment with BCC to my supervisors of course. Her response was of the type you might expect (read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse ) Apologetic, while trying to minimize and make excuses for her behavior. I responded with the link above and basically stated I wasn't accepting or asking for any apologies from her and that I wasn't putting up with any more crap from her(also BCC'd to my supervisors).
My supervisors (all of them lesbian by the way) were supportive of me and respect my contributions to the team. They made arrangements so that I would never need to work near her agian.
Later on through the grapevine I learned that she was telling people that I had retaliated agianst her for rejecting my romantic advances. Of course every one already knew I hated her well before all of this. That and she's 5'1 and 300lbs, and I have a super hot girlfriend. She lost a lot of credibility and hasn't exactly been fired, but is no longer on the schedule either.
I complained about this openly once, they (my all-female-peers) almost kept it in check. When one would get started on male bashing, another would pipe up, "now wait, you can't say that, there is a penis in the room." Having been downgraded to "penis" was totally unacceptable and I put those bitches right in their place each time it came up.
On the last occasion, the main instigator and my roles in the team were to be in a certain area working together pretty much alone. She demonstrated her mastery of verbal abuse pretty well mainly by asking me about some personal detail of my life and then restating it as evidence of some profound character flaw on my part. When I pointed out this bullying behavior to her she tried to tell me that I was being mean to her.
Over the course of the day this abuse escalated to her throwing things (ie taking off her shoes and throwing them at me) and actual punching and shoving.
At the end of the day I emailed my supervisors describing what had happened and that I would try to take care of it one on one with her. I then emailed her explaining how I don't deserve that treatment with BCC to my supervisors of course. Her response was of the type you might expect (read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse ) Apologetic, while trying to minimize and make excuses for her behavior. I responded with the link above and basically stated I wasn't accepting or asking for any apologies from her and that I wasn't putting up with any more crap from her(also BCC'd to my supervisors).
My supervisors (all of them lesbian by the way) were supportive of me and respect my contributions to the team. They made arrangements so that I would never need to work near her agian.
Later on through the grapevine I learned that she was telling people that I had retaliated agianst her for rejecting my romantic advances. Of course every one already knew I hated her well before all of this. That and she's 5'1 and 300lbs, and I have a super hot girlfriend. She lost a lot of credibility and hasn't exactly been fired, but is no longer on the schedule either.
Harassment knows no gender, race, ethnicity, creed, sexual orientation, nationality,or religion. Meaning that both Victims and perpetrators can come from any combination. As someone who used to serve in middle management, I was trained quite extensively on how to deal with such matters.
There is a 3 step process.
1. Tell the offender(s) to stop. If the entire office is doing it, then make it clear to all of them that the behavior is offensive to you.
2. Threaten to tell others. During the statement of telling them that the behavior is offensive, that if it continues that you will tell some one about it. That someone may be a supervisor, manager, CEO, Security, or HR. Whom ever you are comfortable with talking about the situation.
3. Tell others, even when you threaten to tell others it is important that you follow through, and notify someone from the above list, that you told so & so that you didn't appreciate the comment, and cited it as being offensive.
It is against the law for anyone to retaliate against you for reporting harassment. If you report harassment, and suddenly behaviors change and comments are made about "well don't talk to that guy he will report you" that is retaliation. Or if you suddenly get poor performance marks, and you can document that before you had met or exceeded performance expectations that could be retaliation. Or if you are suddenly terminated, demoted, or otherwise passed up for things you were previously in the lead for, all of which could be indicators of retaliation.
If you cite harassment, document it, keep a paper trail, copies of previous performance reviews. CYA, Cover Your @ss.
There is a 3 step process.
1. Tell the offender(s) to stop. If the entire office is doing it, then make it clear to all of them that the behavior is offensive to you.
2. Threaten to tell others. During the statement of telling them that the behavior is offensive, that if it continues that you will tell some one about it. That someone may be a supervisor, manager, CEO, Security, or HR. Whom ever you are comfortable with talking about the situation.
3. Tell others, even when you threaten to tell others it is important that you follow through, and notify someone from the above list, that you told so & so that you didn't appreciate the comment, and cited it as being offensive.
It is against the law for anyone to retaliate against you for reporting harassment. If you report harassment, and suddenly behaviors change and comments are made about "well don't talk to that guy he will report you" that is retaliation. Or if you suddenly get poor performance marks, and you can document that before you had met or exceeded performance expectations that could be retaliation. Or if you are suddenly terminated, demoted, or otherwise passed up for things you were previously in the lead for, all of which could be indicators of retaliation.
If you cite harassment, document it, keep a paper trail, copies of previous performance reviews. CYA, Cover Your @ss.
I am glad to read JM1981's comments and the original blog posting. I am male and was subject to a different kind of harassment a few years ago -- it was so bad that I had to leave the job (my dream job!!). There was an incident of male-on-female sexual harassment in our office. When it became public, upper management then called an all-hands meeting of the 300+ employees to outline policies and procedures (and warnings!) regarding this type of behavior. During this meeting, someone said that harassment should not only cover gender-based offenses, but all other types (race, religion, etc.). That statement prompted one of the female managers to say this: "well, we should feel free to bash Christians, since they deserve it!" There has applause and approval at this statement, and nobody from HR or upper management called her on this bigoted statement. I was shocked and appalled. Since I am a Christian and I did not keep it a secret, I was worried about what would happen. My worst fears were realized -- I was hounded, harassed, ridiculed, and spit upon subsequent to this. I spoke with a close friend in management about my fears and the events, and he said that I just had to get used to it since harassment only applies to men-on-women sexual-based harassment. Subsequently, I received a terrible annual performance evaluation and a warning that I would lose my job next year if I did not improved. That was grossly absurd since for the prior 7 seven years, I received outstanding reviews and annual corporate awards for performance. When I finally quit this otherwise dream job, I gave a 2-hour exit interview to the HR rep, who was obviously expecting a 5-minute wrap-up and discussion of health plans. I don't know what finally happened, but one of the chief perpetrators of the harassment against me was "booted upstairs" -- he was rewarded with an executive management position in which he no longer had direct supervisory responsiblity over anyone. It was definitely his dream job.
What you were experiencing was a hostile work environment and your religion is absolutely covered under the law. You and your friend in management can google the term and find out all kinds of info. Here's one example:
http://employeeissues.com/hostile_work_environment.htm
http://employeeissues.com/hostile_work_environment.htm
I find it hard to believe that Christians were specifically targeted by your former place of employment considering you're in the USA....another religion...possibly/likely....Christian down there....highly unlikely.
I don't usually enter this type of debate, but I think there's a little more to the story....I'm calling you out on this one....
I want more information & more details.
I don't usually enter this type of debate, but I think there's a little more to the story....I'm calling you out on this one....
I want more information & more details.
... There are many American's that are anti-Christian here in the US. Being Christian myself, I've encountered many people who consider all christains as extremists who are out to either condemn or convert, and are BTW all linked to GWB.
I've also heard comments by some people at work about the evilness of christians...
so...its not that hard to believe...
I've also heard comments by some people at work about the evilness of christians...
so...its not that hard to believe...
Daryl: it is true. If you must know the rest of the story, let me just add the one bit of additional info left out of my first posting -- the place of employment was an academic institution of high standing -- these places are hotbeds of atheism
I am appalled when I hear other women male-bash. And it's true, these are the same women who woud scream the loudest if they felt they were being harrassed. I don't see the point in bashing anyone based on gender. There are so many reasons to dislike people on an individual basis. 
I work for a construction company and it is definitely male-oriented. We only have a few females in the IT department and we chicks are treated differently. Overlooked, talked down to, ect. Every once in a while, I'll hear things that really shouldn't have been said. Even so, it would take a lot for me to actually complain. Having been in a REAL sexual harrassment situation, I understand that if you fight something like that, there is a price that comes along with it.
I work for a construction company and it is definitely male-oriented. We only have a few females in the IT department and we chicks are treated differently. Overlooked, talked down to, ect. Every once in a while, I'll hear things that really shouldn't have been said. Even so, it would take a lot for me to actually complain. Having been in a REAL sexual harrassment situation, I understand that if you fight something like that, there is a price that comes along with it.
If I don't like your skin colour or religion, I don't give a crap if your a man or women, you deserve a good bashing and should take it like a man....or a woman that acts like a man.
If you are fat and don't like being called fat, I can completely understand that.
I just can't understand why you wouldn't start losing weight so people would stop calling you fat. DUH! Come on people, THINK for once!
It's no different than me calling a Chinese person a ch**k. I didn't make it up, I didn't give birth to you in some foreign land. Get over it! We used your grandparents to build our railways, people left to hammer spikes were called chinkers, regardless of origin, due to the sound it made. So if anything, it is a tribute to your grandparent's hard work!
Geez! Some people are just too sensitive!
If you are fat and don't like being called fat, I can completely understand that.
I just can't understand why you wouldn't start losing weight so people would stop calling you fat. DUH! Come on people, THINK for once!
It's no different than me calling a Chinese person a ch**k. I didn't make it up, I didn't give birth to you in some foreign land. Get over it! We used your grandparents to build our railways, people left to hammer spikes were called chinkers, regardless of origin, due to the sound it made. So if anything, it is a tribute to your grandparent's hard work!
Geez! Some people are just too sensitive!
What a relief to see that bigoted, ignorant tosspots like Oz_Media are not afraid to stick their heads - or is it ar**s - over the parapet of sensibility
Do I really need to add sarcasm tags when responding to sarcasm with more sarcasm?
If such adult humour is aove your head, either jump up and down when reading it or hang out somewhere else until you grow up and get it.
If such adult humour is aove your head, either jump up and down when reading it or hang out somewhere else until you grow up and get it.
Well your ignorance will catch you eventually when you land yourself and your company with a law suit and bad press for acting in that way, everyone is equal and everyone has rights to not be subjected to abuse regardless of how you pretend to justify it, sorry but your plain wrong and I hope you end up in court at some stage to teach you a lesson or better you end up being the minority and find yourself on the receiving end
What's with all the witless Brits today? Did they stop playing Monty Pythons or something?
I KNEW you'd get it and expected some dullard to miss it, but from two Brits? I'm totally disappointed, I don't know what they are doing with the water in the UK these days, I don't know where the overly sensitive and witless are coming from. Perhaps it's just the younger generation these days, how embarassing, maybe I need that Canadian passport afterall, this is totally defeating!
An American got it, without offense, though and Americans are usually the most easily offended and seem to miss sarcasm! (Given, it was a very sharp witted and sarcastic American witha great sense of ha-ha)
Okay, what did you do to the world while I was sleeping, maecuff?
An American got it, without offense, though and Americans are usually the most easily offended and seem to miss sarcasm! (Given, it was a very sharp witted and sarcastic American witha great sense of ha-ha)
Okay, what did you do to the world while I was sleeping, maecuff?
I was bored. And since I control the heavens and the earth and all the inhabitants, I thought I'd take an opportunity to f*ck with you.
Rolling me over to be arse raped by the Dallas Cowboys is more like it, what a headwrecker THAT was?!? I'm still in shock that they didn't see the sarcasm, is it the modern world that has removed such sense from people? People can't see what is said unless it has smiley faces and acronymns with it now?
To top it off, they are people from one of the most dry witted and sarcasic populations on Earth, and yet they didn't get it?
I'd expect it from almost anyone else but not from a Brit. I'm floored, I think I'll head out and see a few clients for a while to recover from a REALLY wierd morning. This just threw me for a loop, what a disgrace to the race, maybe they are just children or Americans pretending to be Brits or something?!
Your gonna have to take your shovel to them I think, give them a little what for!
To top it off, they are people from one of the most dry witted and sarcasic populations on Earth, and yet they didn't get it?
I'd expect it from almost anyone else but not from a Brit. I'm floored, I think I'll head out and see a few clients for a while to recover from a REALLY wierd morning. This just threw me for a loop, what a disgrace to the race, maybe they are just children or Americans pretending to be Brits or something?!
Your gonna have to take your shovel to them I think, give them a little what for!
Case in point about PC being more important than actually having a personality and correctly reading something first. Far easier to jump to a conclusion and whine than think it through and be human. God I hate living here.....
The grass isn't any greener in North America, believe me. (well with one exception, British Columbia is a stunningly beautiful rainforest of a provice and the grass is VERY green here )
This is far from the land of opportunity it used to be though. Class separation has been takign place over the last 10-15 years and it's really visible now. Just as with the UK except the less fortunate are just left on the streets to fester.
I hear of more and more people heading home to the UK and Europe these days.
i have worked back and forth a great deal, not so much in the last two or three years but I am still in daily contact with people in the UK, some of which moved from Canada and the US, NONE of them would move back here.
As for being PC, it was a trend in the late 80's and early 90's in Canada, the new uzz word. But I find that it has only just sorta taken on in teh US over the last few years, so the annoying people we had to deal with in Canada are now mirrored in the US, and it just gets bloody tiring.
In this case, I was shocked as hell to read two replies from brits with no sense for sarcasm or dry humour, it simply blew me away. I grew up on Monty Python's, Fawlty Towers, The Two Ronnies etc (okay...and Magic Roundabout, BIll & Ben, The Wombles and of course the Klangers) so I never knew anythign but dry sarcasm when I came here. Boy did that every go over well in school! Got me in a lot of trouble and got me out of a lot too.
) This is far from the land of opportunity it used to be though. Class separation has been takign place over the last 10-15 years and it's really visible now. Just as with the UK except the less fortunate are just left on the streets to fester.
I hear of more and more people heading home to the UK and Europe these days.
i have worked back and forth a great deal, not so much in the last two or three years but I am still in daily contact with people in the UK, some of which moved from Canada and the US, NONE of them would move back here.
As for being PC, it was a trend in the late 80's and early 90's in Canada, the new uzz word. But I find that it has only just sorta taken on in teh US over the last few years, so the annoying people we had to deal with in Canada are now mirrored in the US, and it just gets bloody tiring.
In this case, I was shocked as hell to read two replies from brits with no sense for sarcasm or dry humour, it simply blew me away. I grew up on Monty Python's, Fawlty Towers, The Two Ronnies etc (okay...and Magic Roundabout, BIll & Ben, The Wombles and of course the Klangers) so I never knew anythign but dry sarcasm when I came here. Boy did that every go over well in school! Got me in a lot of trouble and got me out of a lot too.
Wow... Funny as a root canal. Hard to believe that these are the words of a professional...
Hard to believe that you posted 5 hours after Oz_Media confessed to it and you still don't recognize sarcasm.
This thread seems to be a good example of how things tip over from humour to offense. It seems you can offend anyone, anywhere about anything. Probably someone is getting offended by this post right now. Their intolerance offends me!
We all enjoy a bit of banter which makes the working day go faster. It is recognising when this tips over into hurting someone that is the issue. Humour works best when everybody finds it funny - so it best not to bother trying with Americans and Germans.
We all enjoy a bit of banter which makes the working day go faster. It is recognising when this tips over into hurting someone that is the issue. Humour works best when everybody finds it funny - so it best not to bother trying with Americans and Germans.
Generally sarcasm is definied by it's extremity. "Nobody would REALLY think like that so it must be tongue in cheek."
And then there are the dense.
I find Germans have a good sense of humour too though, perhaps not so quick witted in English but they laugh whether they understand or not, just to seem happy and welcoming (or is that welcommen?).
And then there are the dense.
I find Germans have a good sense of humour too though, perhaps not so quick witted in English but they laugh whether they understand or not, just to seem happy and welcoming (or is that welcommen?).
...Exposes us to many nutcases who really would think like that.
You may think I'm dense cause I don't always get your humour, I may think your dense cause you don't get my points.
Seriously before the internet, I never thought that anyone really thought the moonlanding was faked, that Hitler was a woman, etc., etc. But I've met people online who believe stuff is just that wacky. Luckily my education into semi-professional skepticism at alt.folklore.urban has stood me in good stead.
But even that has taken a turn for the worse. There are now on snopes.com some items marked true that neither David or Barabar believe to be true. Its an attempt at irony, but there have been people who have quoted these pages as gospel.
James
You may think I'm dense cause I don't always get your humour, I may think your dense cause you don't get my points.
Seriously before the internet, I never thought that anyone really thought the moonlanding was faked, that Hitler was a woman, etc., etc. But I've met people online who believe stuff is just that wacky. Luckily my education into semi-professional skepticism at alt.folklore.urban has stood me in good stead.
But even that has taken a turn for the worse. There are now on snopes.com some items marked true that neither David or Barabar believe to be true. Its an attempt at irony, but there have been people who have quoted these pages as gospel.
James
I've never said you were dense, you always seem to get my humour and if you don't really find it amusing you at least recognize when I'm joking. Perhaps its because you sorta know me better than someone else just visiting the site.
I see these staged lunar landing whackos online all the time too, however they are RARELY on TR, sure there are the NebNinjas and ITlobo's but for the most part it's a sane bunch of employed professionals here.
I guess what baffled me most is that maecuff was a bit sarcastic in her post, to which I replied with thick sarcasm and two people from a nation KNOWN for their sarcastic/dry/quick wit would be confused by it.
Oh well, they are not from the regular crowd so I won't call them too many names.
I'm just surprised it was from them and not someone who didn't speak English fluently, where they would understandably miss the subtlety by reading verbatim.
I see these staged lunar landing whackos online all the time too, however they are RARELY on TR, sure there are the NebNinjas and ITlobo's but for the most part it's a sane bunch of employed professionals here.
I guess what baffled me most is that maecuff was a bit sarcastic in her post, to which I replied with thick sarcasm and two people from a nation KNOWN for their sarcastic/dry/quick wit would be confused by it.
Oh well, they are not from the regular crowd so I won't call them too many names.
I'm just surprised it was from them and not someone who didn't speak English fluently, where they would understandably miss the subtlety by reading verbatim.
Congratulation for having the courage to call it like it is. Unfortunately or fortunately, as one might care to look at it, boorish behavior is not and never was the province of one gender or another. We are all human, and must sometimes be reminded to follow our best behavior. Both past excuses and current excuses for sexist behavior don't cut it.
The women involved might think he's in on the "joke", or not mean to include him in generalizations.
He could probably mitigate the situation by simply not letting the comments pass without rebuttal.
I'm not saying he needs to get angry or respond in kind, but things as simple as:
- "that's a generalization"
- "not all men are like that"
- "please, how would you like it if I said the same thing about women?"
- "tone it down, please, there's a member of the oppressed minority present"
- "I hope you don't think I'M like that?"
- "ouch!" *with a wounded look*
- "that's a little sexist..."
Any number of quips can make the women in question more aware of their behavior - without coming across as retaliatory or offending in turn. If quips don't work, whenever possible he should leave the room or opt out of the conversation; they'll get the point. The butt-covering instinct will take care of the rest.
He could also ask the worst offender to lunch and have a "when you say this, I feel" conversation.
Or he could pick someone in the office with whom he has a rapport, and just vent a little about how it makes him feel. Ask her to support him in trying to change the situation. Then he won't have had to really confront anyone except his friend, which should be comparatively easy.
Most people are not likely to continue with an offensive behavior if they're aware of it. Unless there's an outright bully in the bunch, they'd probably feel bad to realize they've caused distress.
If that doesn't work, THEN it's time to take it up the chain of command.
Chances are that management will instruct him to attempt to deal with it himself first, so there's no point in going to them until he's tried some variation on the options I've outlined above.
He could probably mitigate the situation by simply not letting the comments pass without rebuttal.
I'm not saying he needs to get angry or respond in kind, but things as simple as:
- "that's a generalization"
- "not all men are like that"
- "please, how would you like it if I said the same thing about women?"
- "tone it down, please, there's a member of the oppressed minority present"
- "I hope you don't think I'M like that?"
- "ouch!" *with a wounded look*
- "that's a little sexist..."
Any number of quips can make the women in question more aware of their behavior - without coming across as retaliatory or offending in turn. If quips don't work, whenever possible he should leave the room or opt out of the conversation; they'll get the point. The butt-covering instinct will take care of the rest.
He could also ask the worst offender to lunch and have a "when you say this, I feel" conversation.
Or he could pick someone in the office with whom he has a rapport, and just vent a little about how it makes him feel. Ask her to support him in trying to change the situation. Then he won't have had to really confront anyone except his friend, which should be comparatively easy.
Most people are not likely to continue with an offensive behavior if they're aware of it. Unless there's an outright bully in the bunch, they'd probably feel bad to realize they've caused distress.
If that doesn't work, THEN it's time to take it up the chain of command.
Chances are that management will instruct him to attempt to deal with it himself first, so there's no point in going to them until he's tried some variation on the options I've outlined above.
the best reply I have seen on this topic. I can imagine how difficult it would be to confront everyone in the office about how they were hurting you feelings. Your methods would work quite well and be much less painful.
It is so much fun to put a bunch in their panties. I so rarely get the chance these days. sigh....
that as long as female bashing continues - and it does - I laugh my @ss off when they get their panties in a bunch.
I think I will.
I think I will.
As my friend, when my panties get in a bunch, would you please make sure they are straight on my head?
I would hate to be wearing them in an incorrect manner while being a stinker!
I would hate to be wearing them in an incorrect manner while being a stinker!
Sexual harassment demeans both parties. I like the aspect of our culture to work with both men and women as professionals and not as predators.
I witnessed a sexual harassment with a young man and a 30-ish woman. He was rather too friendly and asked very personal questions like what her bra size was. This was before sexual harassment became an open issue. I was surprised that the woman would continue to talk with the young man and not tell him off for the obtrusive comments. I did not know how to deal with it either. The young man was moved to a different location in the building after a few weeks.
I witnessed a sexual harassment with a young man and a 30-ish woman. He was rather too friendly and asked very personal questions like what her bra size was. This was before sexual harassment became an open issue. I was surprised that the woman would continue to talk with the young man and not tell him off for the obtrusive comments. I did not know how to deal with it either. The young man was moved to a different location in the building after a few weeks.
"Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" Not really. Women start off occupying the politically correct moral high ground with us pigs (men are all pigs, didn't you know?) down below. They are allowed things we wouldn't get away with.
A few years ago in a hospital I worked in the female staff stuck A4 sheets to the walls with a drawing of a man planted into the ground, sticking out from his middle on upwards. The caption was "Grow dope, plant a man." They were so proud of themselves; so many jokes with women as the butt of the joke were doing the rounds and here they at last had one in which the men were the but of the joke. We good-naturedly indulged them - let the girls have their fun. All hell would have broken loose had we pasted jokes about women on the hospital walls. New Zealand is an Amazonian society where political correctness is queen.
There are so many one liners which will stop a domineering woman right in her tracks. Here are a few, try them.
*Don't break your pretty little head about that. Let the men worry about it.
*If God wanted you to think He would have made you a man. (My favourite.)
*There's a sink full of dishes with your name on it.
*Why don't you go and bake a cake?
These, and others like them, render most women speechless. Unfortunately, only for a few seconds.
A few years ago in a hospital I worked in the female staff stuck A4 sheets to the walls with a drawing of a man planted into the ground, sticking out from his middle on upwards. The caption was "Grow dope, plant a man." They were so proud of themselves; so many jokes with women as the butt of the joke were doing the rounds and here they at last had one in which the men were the but of the joke. We good-naturedly indulged them - let the girls have their fun. All hell would have broken loose had we pasted jokes about women on the hospital walls. New Zealand is an Amazonian society where political correctness is queen.
There are so many one liners which will stop a domineering woman right in her tracks. Here are a few, try them.
*Don't break your pretty little head about that. Let the men worry about it.
*If God wanted you to think He would have made you a man. (My favourite.)
*There's a sink full of dishes with your name on it.
*Why don't you go and bake a cake?
These, and others like them, render most women speechless. Unfortunately, only for a few seconds.
I used the phrase to cover multiple meanings from payback to role reversal to appropriate responses. A jerk is a jerk regardless of sex, age, or ideology. The solution applies for either situation.
The proper thing to do, when faced with boorish, childish behavior is to retaliate in the same boorish, childish way?
Being a woman, I can say that not one of those comments would render me speechless. Not even close, and frankly, they aren't all that clever. In fact, I don't think I know ANY women who would be rendered silent by those comments. And if they are? I'd say it was because they were above continuing the conversation.
Being a woman, I can say that not one of those comments would render me speechless. Not even close, and frankly, they aren't all that clever. In fact, I don't think I know ANY women who would be rendered silent by those comments. And if they are? I'd say it was because they were above continuing the conversation.
"Being a woman, I can say that not one of those comments would render me speechless."
Yes, that's a very hard thing to do. Almost as good is the nonplussed expression of a lady who can't believe what she's heard. In this old world so sick with political correctness few women have come across something as pure and honest as good old male chauvinist piggery. Call the PC police. I've been naughty.
Yes, that's a very hard thing to do. Almost as good is the nonplussed expression of a lady who can't believe what she's heard. In this old world so sick with political correctness few women have come across something as pure and honest as good old male chauvinist piggery. Call the PC police. I've been naughty.
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