Discussion on:

10 mistakes Linux newbies make

Thought I'd pick a title that actually went with the article. The real trick will be to keep this discussion focused on things new users do rather another "my OS can piss further than your OS" (well, we can see how long it takes to spin off anyhow).

So, on to the discussion.

4. Not finding software - I can count the number of native apps not in my prefered distro repositories on one hand without setting down my beer. VMware in a native Debian package would be a godsent (64bit specifically). Nvidia's drivers also install clean though I'd like to see the installer added to the non-free or adding itself into the repository list like Google Chrome Beta does. Alsa's updated version with native X-FI support is also long overdue though I don't know where it's being held up. For me, the only other things outside the repository listing are obscure security toys.

6. Avoiding the command line - it's really not as scary as many people like to make it sound. I think this is often blown way out of preportion as I'm regularly in the cli regardless of platform. New users avoiding the very minimum command line experience cripple themselves on all platforms.

7. Giving up to quickly - sadly, yes.. Talking Barbie saying "Math is Hard" is what comes to mind for me often. Accept that this is something new and give it some time; you will be rewarded for your efforts just as you eventually where for learning your previous platform.

8. Windows hierarchy - I actually borrow ideas from different platforms. In terms of hierarchy, it's usially *nix -> Windows though for device naming and directory paths. In general though

My Documents = ~/Documents
My Pictures = ~/Pictures
%userprofile% = ~/
C:\ = /

There are similarities that can be taken advantage of.

9. Skipping Updates - been burned by Windows Update more than once. So far with *nix stable distributions, the only bad update I can remember was PHPBB3 on Mandriva 2007.1 which, when replacing the installed PHPBB2, did not manage the update very well and required a clean reinstall and database reconstruction under the new version. I've not seen an update chew a system yet otherwise but I still read the presented package list before pressing [Y] to continue.

The basic premise of this article is so slanted I just have to laugh.

While it is true that people make mistakes typing (I do, often), the whole point of the GUI was to eliminate typing mistakes in the first place. If Linux is to compete with Apple or Windows, it should offer - at a minimum - the same features as these mainstream OSs, and bury the command line the way Windows has, so that ALL obvious tasks can be accomplished through the GUI. For instance, trying to install a downloaded theme package from an independent artist's site should not be the nightmare that it presently is.

This is NOT a "newbie mistake." It is the way the programs are released to the public - unfinished and user unfriendly. I agree with the poster above who asserts that these "flavors" of Linux are deliberately designed to keep the fences up around a pet project. And the snide attitude of the majority of the Linux "help" community does nobody any favors.

I have uninstalled Linux 3 times now, as I had gotten flat tired of having to type in long strings over and over again, and I actually took typing classes, not to mention the fact that the very first computer I bought was a custom-built 286DX ($2,799 in 1988!) using Quarterdeck (an early windows-like GUI) to launch programs, so I'm no 'newbie' to DOS-like interfaces. OK, I just installed Ubuntu 10.04 and we'll see how it goes.

However, the file structure in 'nix OSs is truly bizarre and I still haven't found someone on any Linux help forum who can explain in plain English how to move a downloaded app file from my desktop to wherever it's supposed to go. I can't even find the fracking applications folder - if there is such a thing. In any case, the UAC or whatever it's called pops up and tells me I can't move files without permission - I have to use the terminal, which is BS. In Windows that's a simple copy/paste operation, but not in Linux, oh no, that would be too easy.

But why bother? The application folder is hidden in a maze anyway and there is no way to find it without several frustrating minutes of opening and closing windows and following obscure paths at which point I no longer care - I have work to do and I will now dual-boot back into Win 7, thank you very much. This just happened to me, and all I was trying to do was install a new themed icon file. Bollocks. Where's the right-click "open containing folder" context menu? Is the Linux community being deliberately arcane or is everybody just plain malicious? 'cause it sure seems that way.

IMHO, it is the Linux development community who are the ones making all the mistakes.

PS: Macintosh OSs are Unix-based just like Linux and they do not force the user to use the terminal for any reason at all. Now, it seems that Apples are very desirable machines. Gee, I wonder why?

The Linux community has absolutely no excuse for not making a user-friendly and efficient interface. Period.

Firstly, the usage of command line in Linux. You do not have to use it most of the time BUT when someone ask "Hey, how do I download this and that.", the community will usually reply "sudo apt-get, su yum, yast, etc etc" because then you simply need to copy and paste those commands into a terminal and hit enter. As oppose to "Click System -> Administration -> xxxx, then click this, on the window...".

Simply highlight the string on the web page/example and middle click on a terminal, dont really have to type. So, they are actually trying to make things simple.

You dont really need to know where the application folder is, yes it is there and it belongs to root, you should not need to umm do anything to it. In Linux, you should try to stay in your home/username folder. If you are compiling/downloaded an application for your own use, put it in your own user folder. You dont really need to move it to the "application" folder. Applications that you get from package managers should appear in your main menu and they are placed nicely in the "application" folders.

I believe the biggest problem with new Linux users is overuse of the "administrative" account; create things in super user mode and later have trouble manipulating it because it belongs to root.

I hope you find Lucid Lynx to your liking, there is really very little need to open the terminal.

As long as you log out when your done, what difference does it make?

For admin functions it saves gobs of time.

Granted, for average users there should be no reason to login as root.

That's why you don't give them the root password.

One simple reason:

rm -rf /

accidentally ran, either variation like "rm -rf ~" or "rm -rf $NULL_VARIABLE" or "dd -if /dev/zero -of /dev/hda" or whatever other command you can think of... Noobs don't have enough background to log in as root safely without destroying the entire O.S. And when they start logging in as root, they do log on all the time as root instead of logging on only as needed.

Remember: Windows is made with the spirit that every user's a dumbass (pop-up: "Do you really want to flush your c:\windows down the drain?" Second pop-up: "'r you sure?"). Unix and Linux boxes are built the exact opposite way; it assumes the user KNOWS what he's doing all the time (you ask for "rm -rf /, 'nix often does it without asking).

Now if I could get along without logging as "root" myself everytime that'd be better

I do it all the time.

Not when I'm simply using a desktop, but if I'm making changes to my server, I'll log on as root and make the changes.

Like you, I don't understand this reluctance to log on as root. I accept you have to be careful of what you're doing, but the same would apply if you su'd or sudo'd.

So if Jack or anyone else could give me a reason why I shouldn't do it, I'd be very happy to listen.

But all I hear is, you should never log on as root, with no explanation as to why.

Firstly, you noted that you do not login as root using a desktop as well and this discussion is about new linux users - who are obviously not serevr administrators.

The post above noted that there are many nasty things the root account can do if the user does not know what he is doing. Someone also pointed out, unlike Windows vista/7, there is no UAC to pause a root account from executing something like "rm -rf /" or some funny/nasty script that comes from god knows where.

For simplicity sake, lets say I have a friend who is new to linux and log on as root and root only and uses it like a normal account, browse, read mail, etc. Lets say somehow someone convinced/tricked him into downloading/modifying the .bashrc in his root account - bad things may happen right?

For experience users, maybe this is unlikely but it is still possible.

The basic idea is - when you need to do something that will affect the system, you need to take the initiative and provide a password.

With good reasons do admins inform you NOT to log in as root.. I run a multitude of servers, and server farms; and have been doing so for around 15 years or so. Therefore I'm not new to Unix,Linux,Windows, or Cisco, Sun, etc... now...

And I used to log in as root, never even created a normal user account for myself... so everything as root... until, I switched screens, which was logged into my production web server, cd (which takes you to your home directory {thats cd [enter]} And proceeded to rm -rf; No problem right?

Until I noticed the prompt stated / yep.. that's right, in all my experience, I failed to noticed, that I went to the wrong TTY, and that mistake took every out.. oh yeah, pull the plug and reboot try to restore by reload/pulling from the inodes.. but you talk about a pain in the a**... yep, last time I every logged in as root. Besides the story here, root, can really screw up systems, and without knowing until it is too late.. like
mount -o bind /var/data/data /home/data
mount -o bind /home/data /var/data/data

YES you can do that, I have seen it done...

Now... for you admins... I hate logging in and having to enter my password every time I want to sudo a command... easy steps for you..

Make sure you have sudo installed.
groupadd sudoers
echo -e "%sudoers\tALL=(ALL)\tNOPASSWD: ALL" >> /etc/sudoers
usermod -a -G sudoers __username__

no __username__ will never have to use the password when issuing a sudo. This used with private key remote logins, and well... ain't nobody getting unless they are at your console, or steal your laptop/desktop

Enjoy.

Thank you.

The gist of the post is top 10 errors newbies make. I have to agree. If you don't know what you are doing, logging in as root has the potential of causing troubles. Those of you that have replied "Why?" typically are not newbies. You know what you are doing. Therefore you are less likely to cause untold havoc to your own system.

Just my two cents.

I don't log in as root either. I su and sudo when needed. Once someone logs in as root, someone else could always find a way to find out how (ie. keystroke recorder, or looking over shoulders, etc.) and get in and blam.... you're done. There are two admins where I work that run the servers. Neither of us log in as root to get most of our work done.

Even in Windows, where you can have an account as "Administrator" and in Vista where you can turn off the security popups. As annoying as they are (Especially when refreshing the system) I still don't disable these features nor log in as "Administrator" unless something is REALLY fubar. And that is like hardly never.

Logging in as Root is not necessary - unless you're up to no good or asking for disaster. sudo -s is also a rarity. If you set your system up right, you can get a good secure system going without needing to log in as root or even doing a sudo -s.

I admit I *used* to do that on *older* systems and also in my robot system (embedded linux where there is no other way to log in). But the latest Desktop and Servers are such now that root is not really necessary as much as it used to be. It's good to learn to not rely on it.

For someone who promotes his/her own creativity, you do not seem to be open to much. For day to day activities, you do not need the command line in Linux. You can use the clicks and menus of the GUI; however, the command line is much faster for those who know how to use it.

If you need to execute complex actions you can manually execute each step in the GUI or you can write a script in one of the GUI text editors and execute the script. One of the benefits of this for people like you is that you can log the input and output. Ok, I took a jab, but I do this too. I always know that the command was executed in the same way because it was executed from the script. You can even put a launcher in your menu if you really want to.

But I don't use it and I should be forced to unless I need to do something super technical or complex.

I remembered installing openSuse and having to compile binaries for drivers before installing them. I have a computer science degree and this annoyed the hell out of me. What is this a programming assignment.

And don't get me started on the douchebags that make up the Linux community. What an arrogant bunch of jerks. These social rejects always treat you like you're too stupid to be using Linux. Maybe I am. Maybe I'm too preoccupied with getting **** done and being productive.

The Same Is True With Windows Powershell...

But I don't use it and I should be forced to unless I need to do something super technical or complex.

** Strange then that in a corporate environment where good security matters they do things to windows to make it behave more like linux and you can't just do things because you think you should be able to without consequence. If you download something as an administrator in windows you cannot execute it as a normal usetr unless you have been given the right to do so.

** I have a computer science degree also. I however choose to use some free (Open-source if you will) programs that someone who wanted to do something spent his spare time doing and releasing (et gratis) to the public in case it could help them too. The likely alternative is with windows/Apple is you would have to pay for it even though some of it may contain said Open-source above. I'm not saying this is bad, but recognize it for what it is rather than making out your difficulties are defacto everyone else's. When I started using the same (very steep learning curve for a beginner) MS-DOS in 1998 It took more than a year before I could say I was proficient. I got by with research and the good will of my fellow windows users just like I get by with good will of my current *nix users.

I remembered installing openSuse and having to compile binaries for drivers before installing them. I have a computer science degree and this annoyed the hell out of me. What is this a programming assignment.

And don't get me started on the douchebags that make up the Linux community. What an arrogant bunch of jerks. These social rejects always treat you like you're too stupid to be using Linux. Maybe I am. Maybe I'm too preoccupied with getting **** done and being productive.

** Sounds to me like you can't get enough of how caustic you think you are. calling people "douche-bag" kinda gives the game away a little bit as to the kin of intellect we are dealing with here. Of course you may just like getting angry at what ever you feel should be easy for you to achieve but which actually may require some work.. (like your computer science degree.

READ THE MAN PAGE in forums when trying to find an answer to a question. That is my biggest gripe with the open source community. I've read the man page, sometimes two or three or more times, if I don't understand it I go to google.

I've run into far too many people with the "READ THE MAN PAGE" attitude. As I learn more about different operating systems I am finding more and more uses for them.

YEAH! :-D

In the days when windows was my only OS people in online forums I asked for help used to say RTFM. They would then tell you you needed to be more explicit or else how were they expected to attempt to be civil much less help you! Guess they forgot they were new once and couldn't be specific cos that would mean you actually new more than you perhaps do... These people exist everywhere on all kinds of forum. Tried getting help to fix a fridge freezer where the freezer was working but the fridge had stopped. Thats another story.... hehe hehe

I was certified in Microsoft 16 years ago and I have NEVER been hacked into either, had a virus, malware or Trojan. Why is it that Linux users proclaim that the product is so uncomplicated and then proceed to tell you the most elementary mistakes that new users encounter? I am so tired of the Microsoft "bashers" (mostly techies) who are only jealous that they did not make billions on something so easy to use. I am old enough (so old) that I have techie friends that still cannot comprehend Vista and the fact that you just type the command the minute you click on the START button (OMG where did the command prompt go). If you cannot figure out that you can type a DOS command directly into the START box upon one click, Microsoft has included it in "My Programs" for the slow and inept. I read all of these technical reports from Tech Republic and when they come from the staff (specifically TJ Dojo)they are usually helpful. Other than that, it is just more Microsoft bashing and trying to justify why Linux or any other OS is "better". If you read this religiously like I do you have the reasons why Linux and Apple do NOT compare to Microsoft. If you don't, let me know and I will send you the information. writer2012@comcast.net

I have to say, I don't understand why Windows user bash Linux users, and why NIX users bash Windows.. oh Let's not even get into Mac, which uses Darwin, which is Unix. Windows 7, XP, Snow Leopard, Ubuntu, Slackware Gentoo, Fedora, Windows 98, Mac OS9.....get the point, they are all the same, and perform for the most part the same functions... you want a real machine, Grab an IOS system, and throw a GUI on that... Whether you are reading email from grandma, or doing complex BGP routing within a hacked mac mini, every OS has it's flaws, and perks. So my question is why does everyone have to bash everyone else for what they are using.... oh yeah I forgot SUN...

I play with every OS, and on a daily basis.... Windows, running linux VM Mac's running Windows VM, Linux, running FreeBSD VM's.. using COFS2 which is shared with samba, for the windows using... a real IT Admin, can do it all... or learn on the fly... enjoy.

On Another Note :: If money didn't exist, we would not need an OS Battle; nor ATM's for that matter... and therefore we would have no crime....EVER

Linux itself has come a long way in the last few years. I truly believe that most newbies to the IT field fear what they do not understand and that goes for any operating system. Educational opportunities for Windows has been more prevalent in the past but now Linux has hundreds of forums and resources that can be tapped to educate the user. You just have to go find what's right for you.

why are you looking for the folder where applications are stored?

"...how to move a downloaded app file from my desktop to wherever it's supposed to go."

What distribution are you using? The package manager for that distribution should handle all that for you - downloading the app, running the install so the app goes to the appropriate directory, etc.

Creative Blue was referring to an icon theme which with all the distros can actually be quite tricky, depending on the theme.
This and the mouse cursors are popular because generally these are the only things you can really customise in Windows, where as us nixers are used to some more elaborate style of customising and forget some of the smaller simple things.

One thing I will say though, If you need to fix something in windows ... like say the registry because it has been rodgered by some nasty virus (digital or organic), its CLI to do it, and that is from Microsoft ... oh and no up arrow or TAB when your in the recovery console ... oh no no you need to type every single frigin letter. Sorry bloke, no TAB no up arrow .... that is so last century.

I don't spend enough time in Recover console to be bothered by the lack of editing tools. At work, if I can't fix the problem with a Repair reinstall or a chkdsk /r, it's usually re-imaging time.

I understand the frustration which in part is due to what you are used to in Windows. But one must accept that Linux is different. Very different OS used to accomplish same. Think of a person who only drives automatic cars and then migrate to driving Standard/Sick shift. It would definitely be a serious learning curve. Just imagine flying an airplane! Or helicopter? They are different but used to accomplish the same thing. As far a Linux is concerned, as one person pointed out, simply use the aptitude install or yum install I have a windows 2003 dc and a server 2008..et.etc. That was the end of that article and I had been checking to see if he/she would come back and let everyone know what as ass he/she was and I am yet to see it. I think the thread ended with my comment. So both Windows and Linux communities can be good and bad and the support can be good and bad. Just a suggestion, Install VirtualBox and you can test out all the flavors of Linux you want without having to dualboot.