Discussion on:

Three reasons Snow Leopard beats Windows in the enterprise

No really but still. I can't imagine MACs having a real place in mainstream business. They are what they are, niche products.

I see them as evolved thin clients/terminals.

As far as the total cost of ownership is concerned I think that most Windows box are badly configured by the IT dept if they are always turning sour. Our images can last as long as the hardware last for most users. People just need to realize that the end user is like a kid and lock them down properly. Plz don't bother telling me about the default security settings in both OS, they are irrelevant in the enterprise.

You can't Virtualize this OS because of Apple's strict EULA.They won't let you run it on non-Apple hardware. I think the whole TCO issue is nullified by the fact that I have to spend money to buy a piece of Apple hardware (which usually isn't cheap either).

Yes, one has to purchase Mac hardware to run Mac OSX, but in my experience the overall TCO is still much lower than Windows systems (after one factors in Windows-platform hardware replacement, licensing, cost of man-hours to clean systems of viruses, expensive (and always lagging the bad guys) anti-virus software - the list goes on. In the last 5 years of running our business, we've had 13 Mac-years and 5 Windows-years of ownership, and I've had to replace the Windows laptop twice (Dell both times), reinstall Windows OS three times, spend multiple hours wiping viruses/trojans that up-to-date anti-bad-stuff software missed, and replace recharger-units twice (and I know what I'm doing!!); I've had to reinstall MacOSX once (and that's the single problem I've had with the Macs).

You'll NEVER get me to willingly move back to a Windows platform.

You're doing something wrong.

I've been running Windows networks for years and I can't even remember the last time I had a real virus actually infect something.

It came loaded on a Wolfenstein 3d floppy.

The virus argument is always funny.

If you are living with sharks you're going to bit very hard one day. With thousands of viruses just swimming in the pool of WinDos, your must be the luckiest person in the pool. Hope you've worked your backup plan to the Max.

Tell me please, where the hell did mac guys get all their viruses from when they used windows? I have had one in 96 i think, but then again i was 9 years old at that time..

As long as you stay away from porn in *.exe you should be virus free :\

Actually, you *can* virtualize OS X Server. Just sayin'

The reason that Microsoft kicked Apple's butt so many years ago was that people liked the idea of having choices. We liked the ability to choose the hardware that we wanted. Windows took the emphasis off of the hardware and gave us flexibilty, granted MS dropped the ball.

I'm in an environement where there is no write access to the C:\ drive. All modified directories are on the D:\ drive, including the Program File. No way to install anything, change the configuration and good hardware configuration.
I don't agree with your statement. Having MAC OS since 2 1/2 years, no surprise, no glitch, same speed as day 1. When I turn my laptop on, I expect that it will react the way as yesterday. I have time to do productive work, not manage my Windows. On may MacBook Pro, I'm not lock and still working great.

''When I turn my laptop on, I expect that it will react the way as yesterday. I have time to do productive work, not manage my Windows. On may MacBook Pro, I'm not lock and still working great.''

On a personal note, I expect the same thing from my Windows 7 x64 machines, and they always deliver. But again, I am no end user.

You are much more locked down with OSX then I am with Windows.

In a corporate environment, managing your computer isn't your job. If thing go sour you just need to make a phone call to get the thing fixed.

Agree, this is not my job to support and I'm calling support when something goes. When I'm working with my client equipement, I cannot do support functions anything on the PC.
I'm also using may MAC at work and I have to support it myself, not really, I never had to do support work on it in 2 1/2 years at my client sites. Just updates at my business office.
Compatibility - Open Office is great. Visio, a lot better products on MACs. Trouble shooting tools at clients sites (network, wi-fi, etc.) I cannot may MacBook Pro on many different networks (small and very large) and no problem...

I had another document display pictures improperly in open office yesterday. It was created in Word. Text and formatting was off as well.

Bill

shhhh!! That's our big secret.. don't go telling everybody or they will all be running unix (and cluttering up our support forums) next week.
It's why I love my linux. I can shut it down, go to work all day, come home, start it up and it's exactly how I left it, except the clock has set itself from the internet time servers.
Things don't change or break because I have powered down for a few hours.

Move up to Unix and grow up a little. PS - the Mac is Unix based so if you like all the linux commands will work they on the Mac. (This is all Tongue-in-cheek stuff so please no flaming)

for digging up a seven month old zombie?

Is Honda or Nissan a niche market? With a 10% and growing, you cannot talk anymore a niche marcket. Most of the software vendors have a MAC version. I'm sure there is good money there for them.

We are talking about the enterprise market here. Apple is good for newcomers in the consumer market, like the elderly people.

The market share in the fortune 500 computer parks is much much lower. They are mainly used in design firms or for video editing and a few other NICHE markets.

Consultants aren't end users. If a windows box break it'll be replaced within 1 or 2 hours in any decent corporation.

"The market share in the fortune 500 computer parks is much much lower."
In fact, 40% of the Fortune 500, not counting Apple itself, is allowing Apple products into their network environment. The actual penetration is yet small due to the fact that these companies are allowing their employees to choose the hardware they want, but the point is that this hardware is working its way into the corporate environment at a greater rate than you imagine. All you have to do is go into any Apple store to see that, "Apple is good for newcomers in the consumer market, like the elderly people," is patently false; all age groups are buying Apple computers, not just the elderly.

This statement too, "Consultants aren't end users. If a windows box break it'll be replaced within 1 or 2 hours in any decent corporation," is not necessarily true, quite often the IT department wasting days or even weeks as they attempt one fix or another before succumbing to the knowledge that replacing is cheaper than repairing. I've seen even the biggest companies fall for this one.

Honestly, no IT professional worth his salt wants to admit to failure to revive a dead machine, even though it costs the company more than it's worth for him to try. Maybe the IT departments could learn something from the military about 'replace first, fix after' when it comes to servicing the overall device. If a plane can't fly, is the mission abandoned until the plane is fixed? No, they send up another plane. If the problem can't be fixed within a couple hours on the ground, the defective component is replaced by another and fixed in the shop. You never abandon the mission to fix a component, you replace that component as quickly as possible so that the shop isn't under stress to launch that mission. So maybe the computer can be repaired; why waste time trying to fix it on company time? Get that user back in production, then fix the hardware. I'll grant that consultants can't necessarily do that, but the IT department certainly can.

... that place sucked.

Here, you don't choose your hardware. You get what you get, if you don't like its a sad day for you. I won't even take a look at your hardware, if we don't own its not getting on the corp network. Its jut not up for debate.

Ive never seen any technician trying to repair a computer for more then 15 minutes. They take the HDD out and throw the remains in the junk room. When I said 1-2 hours I was referring to the worst case scenario, a HDD failure. Anything else will be replaced within 30 minutes, installed.

A) Roughly 40% of Fortune 500 companies are letting Apple products into the environment--usually by letting employees choose the hardware they want to work on.

B) I have witnessed corporate IT attempt to remotely repair a laptop computer for over two weeks when the machine was months overdue for replacement anyway. This, by the way, was no tiny company but rather one likely to be significantly larger than yours with hundreds of thousands of employees around the world.

Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean that something doesn't exist. Hmmm?

IT departments do NOT let their employees choose what they want. They may make exceptions to the rules, but they don't say "oh, you want a system thats 3 times as expensive because you are more comfortable with it? sure, why not?"
You make a standard and you stick with it even between brands and models of PCs, let alone MAC vs PC. This ensures ease of deployment and troubleshooting.
Also, that example of how long it took to repair that PC remotely is an example of poor judgement not an argument for or against a certain brand.
Yes, Apple makes it way into the corporate environment. Every company I've worked for had either 1) the marketing department or 2)
a top-level suit swear they couldn't do their work without a Mac and we would make an exception.
Apple makes quality products, but they are not just going to trickle their way into the corporate environment and take over.

True, they have some say in what's used in general, but the overall policy is generated by upper level management and the accounting department. If they determine that IT costs are going too high and that some other system has the potential to cut those costs by a significant amount, then IT is given the job of making it work, whether they like it or not. If a CEO says, "I want an iMac on my desktop tomorrow and I want it fully integrated with the network," IT has no choice but to deliver, or get fired.

The point is that roughly 40% of the IT departments in the Fortune 500 are already integrating Apple products into their networks, usually through the channel of the company letting the employee choose the hardware they want to use. The management software is out there that lets the IT department have control of the environment, and the Apple is proving its ability to produce a greater ROI through greater productivity.

I'm not saying that Apple will take over the enterprise, but I am saying that Microsoft is losing its dominant role, and if HP has its say, Microsoft may lose an even bigger piece of the pie.

"upper level management and the accounting department" do not set any IT policy. What do accountants and upper managenemt know about IT exactly?

Upper level management state the business problem and let IT find the solutions, fact. Mind you thr CIO is upper level management and part if IT - what now!!

Under you argument IT can now replace the accounts department as they seem to be able to replace IT (an IT people have generally better numberical and analytical skills).

I said, and I quote, "IT does not set company policy, however, upper management and accounting can tell IT what must be done." If Accounting says that IT is costing too much money, then IT has to either trim down or expect some major turnover. If upper management says "I want my Mac," then IT has to give it to them, or risk losing their jobs. When Apple's products are able to demonstrate a higher ROI over the existing system, then Accounting and Upper Management are going to say, "Make it so!"

That doesn't mean that IT is off the hook, however. They've got to prove beyond doubt that something can't work if they want to keep it out. The problem is, they've already been proven wrong more than once in real-world testing--I just cannot find any link to the proof I'm looking for; proof, by the way, that was documented on film over ten years ago.

Again, an efficient IT department will be one that studies all the technologies and prepares for any eventuality. If your IT department is smart, you will find out how to integrate Apple products into your environment before you're forced to do it.

Most things work, is about how WELL they work and how MANAGABLE they are.

I can only assume you do not work in the IT / Computing field - what are your credentials in the IT /Computing field to qualify your answers by?

"one that studies all the technologies and prepares for any eventuality" - there are millions upon milliion of solutions out there, any eventuality, so what now just study and do no work????

?????

Mind you - this guy has is to a T, no need to rewrite as it is so good.

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=330640&messageID=3292819&tag=content;leftCol

I know what I've used. I know what I've serviced. I pay attention to reviews and reports from far more than just one or two individuals. Statistics have proven more than once that Apple's machines are more reliable, and I personally know why, having also worked for one of the companies that manufactured components for them.

I don't 'assume.' I know.

what are your credentials in the IT /Computing field to qualify your answers by?

... Because you don't have a Need to Know.

you answers and posts are just amusing fluff.

"You get what you get" is so 80's. The real truth is that large corps are looking at their employees mental heath, so they are now letting mac's into the workspace. WinDos system produce so much stress that people will bring in there MacBook just to do there work. What really sucks is your attitude.

Look at the Mac version of Quickbooks. It can't do multi-user mode and I still believe that there isn't a version of AutoCAD for the Mac. A have seen mulit-function printers that say Mac compatible, but if you look at the specs things like scanning to the desktop...Windows only.

Bill

Just get Viewscan and it will work without any problems. and why not get AutoCAD? for Mac? also try Goldenseal Accounting Software for Mac.

Any form of the window's group of ridiculous versions of server and desktop OS's are a complete waste of time and money. I agree that Apple Snow leopard is far superior!
Any form of The windows group of ridiculous versions of server and desktop OS's are a complete waste of time and money. Microsoft is a real stinker! And, Let's not forget the absurd cost of MS office!

Alleged superiority of a given OS is ultimately irrelevant.

It's all about the programs that it runs.

The operating system IS software, and it's the most important software your computer runs.

Try doing Quick Look on a Mac. Then try doing that on Windows.

Try a complex, systemwide search on Windows. Then do it in Spotlight on a mac.

Suppose you are uploading photos to a site and you have to use browse. In windows, you can't see a full photo, only a name and an icon. You can quit the browse process if you aren't sure, then open the photo in whatever photo editor you use. Then once you've relinked the name and photo content in your mind, you can browse again and upload.

On a Mac, you hit the space bar and your upload opens full size, displayed as if it's opened by photoshop, but it isn't, it's instantaneous and it's the operating system doing you a favor, showing you exactly what you're uploading. If it's the right photo, you click OK. If not, you arrow down to the next photo, which automatically opens in the same Quicklook window you openend for the previous photo. This works even if you're uploading a video file or a sound file. Everything plays in the system without any other software opening.

That's just one example that happens to save me lots of time because I do lots of Web pages. There are hundreds more examples.

That's not the OS. That's a piece of software that you use to view and move around files. It's called "Explorer" in Windows and I believe Mac the software is called "Finder". Most OSes include basic software like an email client, a web browser, a simple text file editor. Sometimes they even include media players. These are all application software and are not the operating system.

Here's good old wikipedia's explanation of an operating system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system

Most people want to do a little more than the basics though, very little more. They want make spreadsheets, construct databases, play a game, edit a sound file etc etc.

The operating system that allows the user to make better use of the computer is the 'better' OS.

Since by the sounds of it you're a web/graphics guy. The reason Apple has historically been the platform of choice in this realm is because of Adobe's *software*. Adobe developed postscript and all those fun graphics applications that people wanted to use.

Actualy, Brenton, if you were a systems programmer I don't think you'd be so quick to say so.

You may have missed the point that this QuickLook feature happens from ANY application. When the app calls the system service to open a file, the library dialog box has this feature hooked in.

And "hooks" is what it's all about. The operating system, below the Explorer/Finder level, has to know about the mapping of apps to use to display the "look", which hook into the file system / Registry equivalent, has to include anti-reentrance hooks to prevent the app that you're currently running from being invoked to "look" the file that it's trying to open (a rather deadly "Hall of Mirrors" crock to fall down,) and hook back into the windowing system at both the window (Darwin) and display (Quartz) levels to control the presentation and streaming of the "look" previews.

Doing it is not hard. Doing it RIGHT takes a lot of work, down in the guts level of the O/S to make sure that it can happen independent of the GUI ("Finder"). Doing it right QUICKLY and SMOOTHLY is impressive.

And BTW, to see if it works independently of the Finder, try this experiment. While you have a QuickLook open, use the triple-finger salute to pull up the Force Quit panel. Do Force Quit on the Finder (it will change the name to "Relaunch") and watch as the background and desktop repaint. Did Quick Look repaint, too? If not, it was independent of the Finder.

The exact definition gets tricky and that line where the OS ends and an application begins gets harder to define. I will admit that often the GUI of an operating system is often considered 'part of the operating system' but in many ways it's an application.

I was using it to demonstrate a point to the person I am responding too. I was originally making a point that the software available on a given platform is often what makes it the 'better choice'. The individual responded saying that the operating system is what makes the difference. I was saying that in many ways the GUI is really an 'application'.

In windows; you can make it do what ever you want.. all the things you say it can't it can, the question is if you know how to

Windows vs Mac is a stupid arguement, but it ends up like this:

Mac = Stable because its locked
Windows = Potentially unstable because it allows everyone to do what ever they want once they have it installed, good and bad.

Look it up.

The feature has existed since Windows 95, Windows beat Mac to the image quick view punch a long long time ago.

It will be a sad Christmas day when the kids get a PC - But maybe with any luck they may get a MacBook or a iPad...

A Mac is a PC? Yes it will run Win7 and OS X so you can do both OS if you like. And if you like to run them at the same time get a package call Parallels.

Not so blatantly

I know it's a long way from how it might play out in the server space, but I've had this personal experience with a Dell Mini 9 netbook:

The machine came from Dell with Ubuntu installed. At one point I thought I'd try Windows XP on it, so I nLited a new XP disc and installed it, using advice I found in a tech mag. Ubuntu had booted in about 40s, so I was disappointed to see XP take over two minutes (I define "boot" as the time from button press to full functionality, including WiFi). I tried another nLited install, with identical results, then a full install. Of course it's wimpy hardware, but it was just unacceptably slow compared to Ubuntu.

So then, just for fun, and because I hadn't been fully satisfied with either Ubuntu or XP, I tried "hackintoshing" the little beast. I put Leopard on without problem, using instructions posted in the Dell Mini support forum. Result? It transformed the computer. Start is back down to 45s, applications open almost immediately, and it's quite acceptably fast - feels like a normal good computer.

The revealing thing about all this is that all three OSs were running on identical hardware. It's obvious that OS X was making much better use of that hardware than XP and slightly better use of it than Ubuntu.

The Leopard install is the full OS, with MS Office and other typical productivity apps. You'd think it had far more horsepower under the hood than a single-core Atom 270. I think that's a pretty impressive demonstration of OS X's overall efficiency.

that an enterprise IT department breach a EULA?

"the comment was that OS X uses hardware more efficiently"

what he did not say was breach EULA

Installing Mac OSX on non-Apple hardware is a breach of the EULA.

Not being able to install OSX on non-Apple hardware is a big hindrance to enterprise adoption (which is the topic of this thread)

EULA violations, lack of vendor support, invalidated warranties, all those minor trivialities.