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Poll: Is the practical computer education in grades K-12 adequate?

Is the current generation of K through 12 students getting a proper and practical education with regard to the personal computer? Will this generation be more adept and more aware of the benefits and the pitfalls of using a PC connected to the Internet? Ten years from now, will network administrators still be fixing problems caused by careless and clueless users not using common sense when it comes to security, malware etc?

These days seems to be adequate(in my experience, anyway). For the majority of people. I can only assume it's going to get better, and stronger with every year that passes, but I don't know how specific and technical the choices will be.

I was given the option of starting Programming in my 10th year(Form 4, for those who use that counter) and I really enjoyed it. I said to my teacher 'It's a shame I was never given this option from the beginning of high school' and he just laughed, knowing how successful programming would have been for 12-13 year olds.
So, in MY opinion, I would definitely have liked to do more earlier on, but for the general population, I guess it's not TOO bad.

Try visiting a few local school's to talk about the IT/Computer work area's. See what the real world is like.

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Go visit a school. What you will find is that the kids are mostly very PC literate as they have the time to experiment at home. It's the teachers who need educating. They are scared stiff of PC's. Most times the kids are more PC savvy than the teachers.

My kids were plonked down in front of a PC at home when they were 5 and learned to read on it. My son was dual booting his PC with Linux by the time he was 8. He walked out of a PC class on his first day at Middle school as he knew more than the teacher and now he is at High School he is selling virtual robots on Second Life which he develops in Javascript just for fun. All without spending a day in computer class in his life. All he needed to know was how to use Google and he was up & running.

If you are in my class, then yes
As for everywhere else, it depends on a lot of factors (unfortunately). One of the biggest problems is the mandated curriculum. Few states do it well, many just saying students have to take a computer class of some sort (if they require it at all, some have it as an elective only). In TX the required class is Business Computer Information Services (BCIS). Sometimes this is not even taught by a Computer/Technology teacher but the English or Business teacher. Even though it is HS class in TX, my school teaches it to 8th graders. Basically covers all Office software (I have integrated Open Office some), including Outlook, Word, Excel, PP, and Access. Good overall, my other classes go well above this (programming VB and Java, Webmastering). Budget can be a problem as well, having most up to date software/hardware for 100's of students can be quite hard.

As an ex ICT specialist for 10 years in an elementary school, I think I'm qualified to say that there is generally insufficient time in the school day for an average classroom teacher to teach what is needed to create a world of completely competent ICT users. As a specialist I worked through a programme starting with 5 year olds developing intuitive use of software by the time they are 10 and some simple programming using VB and .net. It was accompanied by safe use of internet, network access and other resources as well as research skills. I don't know about current practice in other countries but in New Zealand the government does not fund such specialist positions at the elementary level. Many of my ex-pupils have gone on to degrees in computer science. Since going back to an ordinary classroom position due to lack of funding, I have noticed the downturn in skills except of course, in my own room.

As the parent of 2 kids who are just finished/finishing high school I see the results of computer education in our Canadian schools. The kids are coming out with fantastic keyboarding skills (they can type rings around me) but not much else. When it comes to computer maintainence and troublshooting it all falls to me. It's the same thing as driving a car - they drive it just fine to get where they want to go; but don't concern themselves with fixing it or doing much more than filling the gas tank or, occasionally when told to, checking the oil! They definitely know which ones are the sleekest and most powerful/desireable though!

I have met grade 8's that know how to form a document, but not convert to usable by other pc forms. I have met many people from small to old that know nothing about maintenance or prevention. The ones that do know, are self taught in older age ranges. But too many know how to use one program or two and that is it. My youngest is 7 and she knows how to do lots of things, but will refuse to shut down right, surf all over and click on ads, try to give all her data online in forms. She will try to do the same things over and over when given dialog boxes and just leave them all up. I have coached her, she has no interest in keeping the machine "well". That is the overall attitude I meet.

K-12 education should emphasize reading for content, clear writing, and the core substantive knowledge of mathematics, geometry, science, geography, American and world history, and social studies that an educated person should have. Training in a foreign language or two is also a good idea.

The one computer-related skill I would require is touch-typing, because it has life-long value for almost everyone. Computer skills and concepts can be woven into other lessons, such as how to do research.

Of course it is possible to teach mechanical rules of safe computing use, but the ability to move those rules into concepts that can adapt to new situations requires an understanding of the society in which the individual functions. Thus the emphasis on a good education in the fundamentals for success.

Unless a child is in a vocational school or technical school, K-12 is not the place to be teaching programming, except as part of curriculum on logical thinking. And it certainly is not the place to teach every child about hardware, because most of the hardware will be obsolescent or obsolete before the child enters the workforce.

Those of us reading this forum are techies by vocation or avocation. K-12 education should not organized to create a bazillion computer-savvy clones of us, at least not if we want a world worth living in. We need the artists, the musicians, the salesmen, the letter carriers, the store clerks, etc. Heck, we even need a few attorneys, accountants, and doctors. (Don't worry about the politicians; they will always be with us and they have a skill set and motivations that techies really don't understand.)

Also, it is worth remembering that children will learn whatever is part of the world in which they live, whether it is the rules of baseball or how to get a song from mom's computer into their music player. A lot of the really valuable stuff one learns in life is not learned in a classroom.

Bottom line: K-12 should emphasize thinking and learning how to learn.

This k-12 generation needs to know the basics (English, Math, Science, Geography, etc) and they need to know how to develop higher order thinking skills, but they need instructional technology. We are in the audio/video/digital era and there's no going back. Everything depends on our acquisition of computer skills. The PC is a tool that is already being used for research, communication, creativity (art, music,etc). We do our present k-12 students a disservice if we don't include the proper use of the computer in their education.
The computer is yesterday's pencil. After we were told that it had a point on one end and an eraser on the other and it was important to sharpen it occasionally, we were taught to use it to achieve life-related skills.
We don't need to teach everyone programming but we must give today's students the opportunity to expand their learning through the use of technology.
Did you know that the average person speaks at about 200 words/minute; the average 3rd grader writes 15 words a minute and the average student thinks at about 400 words a minute? Think of the log jam in their brains unless they learn to use the keyboard to express themselves!
A huge amount of 4-12 are already owners of IPods, cell phones and gaming systems. Leaving them to use these tools on their own with no instruction or guidance is risky, but that's another rabbit trail.
I have just retired from 16 years of teaching computer to k-8 students and have seen the tremendous value of integrating classroom instruction with the use of the computer in almost every subject taught in the school. At first the going was tough as I had to woo the classroom teachers into the process, but the results were very rewarding as I saw Kinderg?rtners matching shapes, numbers and words; first,second and third graders writing stories and even books; fourth graders creating exciting slide shows for history fairs; fifth graders writing their autobiographies and using spreadsheets; Sixth graders researching for science fair projects; seventh graders creating Web Pages;and eighth graders making Fine Arts projects with camcorders, just to mention a few amazing activities I witnessed over the years.
I would never suggest an over focus on computers, but they must be integrated into the everyday learning of today's students or these students will be lost in the inevitable race they will find themselves in as they continue in their education.

I am concerned that education is being subverted to training. We are now producing children who can text a blue streak, but cannot write a proper English sentence or compose a logical paragraph regardless of how much technology they have at hand. The kids know all the latest details about pop culture, but have almost no understanding of our history or of the world in which they live. Egregious examples appear regularly on Leno's "Jay Walking" segments.

Good computer skills are essential to success in many lines of work, but the focus of early education must be on the fundamentals if this nation is to stop its decline and adapt to a rapidly changing world.

The keyboard has become the pen and the flat panel has become the book. I do not think that we are reverting education to training. We are merely utilizing new tools to find our knowledge.

I agree with portions of both sides of the argument. Change is inevitable and we must all be cognisant of the change. However, I think the most important thing that is being overlooked is the fact that anyone can publish anything they want on the Internet. The advantage of books is that they were professionally edited and publishing was also professionally handled. There was a process to make sure that what was put in books was actually correct. If you go out to some of these WIKI sites you can find errors abound and this is becoming a huge and accepted part of society.

That being said, it is not only an educators responsibility to make sure that kids have what they need when they hit the real world, it is also the responsibility of the parents to make sure it all comes together. Technology breeds laziness.

I retired 3 years ago from a pre-K through 12 school, in Bolivia. The school is a USA type school. Our computer program was inter-grated into the curriculum and the graduating students were very versed in word processing, spread sheets, power point. Science and math used computers for different labs and math projects. Classroom presentations used power point and frequently charts from excel. They had available classes on design work and machining of materials, CAD drawing and desktop publications. This was more of an applications class showing how the world could and did use computers. Web page design and web page programs were used to create their own web page. Programing used to be taught, Basic and Pascal, but were dropped in favor of applications. The thinking was that if they wanted to learn programing or be a programmer they could get that in University, applications were the present and future for most professions.

Elementary learned keyboarding and word, spelling, and language skills. Writing reports with word.

That school was a model that was supposed to show what could be done with computers in schools.

Close to $200,000 dollars were expended,over a 7 year period, on computers and networking and internet connections.

They have teachers that are specialists in information technology.

Not all schools have the funds available or the management is in need of the funds for other projects they think are more important.

Oz in Bolivia

I have taught computer-related subjects for almost 25 years, and taught other subjects for an additional for over 7 years. Students of all ages need to learn to use the computer as a tool, because of the enormous increase in productivity they will gain. Once they've acquired some application skills, they will have a base on which to build further understanding and skills. Unless they see a need to know about and how it fits into what they already know, most of them will find it much less interesting and less understandable.

I have seen it over and over again.

Ask a question on how to create a solution. The response is "one second while I look it up."

But what if there is no looking it up? What if you must use what is between your ears and a pencil if you are lucky? What if you have to have a knew creative solution in order to accomplish the assigned task?

I think what nonseq wrote "Computers should be tools, like pencil and paper, to advance education, develop critical thinking skills, develop communication skills....Everyone does NOT need to know how pencils and paper are made in order to use them" is very true. We needn't teach alal the kids how to write programs or make powerpoint presentations, however we should be able to offer more advanced skills at least at a 8-12 grade level. Ny daughter just graduated high school can barely type, and has no real idea where her files are located. She doesn't have the basic understanding of file structures or possible locations of her documents. Good keyboard skills should a must. And, before I forget, good computer ergonomics needs to be a part of the mix.

School k-12 is about learning basics. The basics are more important than the "flash" that computers permit the person generate. Life outside of school is where a person develops style and polish, once the basics are mastered: reading, writing, and math. The three are best learned, without the wizardry of engineers. Just how many 12th graders know how to calculate square roots of non-square numbers without a calculator? Learning the basics is fundamental to personal success.

Why are kids fitted with crutches, when they are capable of learning to walk? (and need to) Children need to learn to crawl before they walk. Why program in failure?

The school systems over emphasizes computer skills. Keyboarding in high school to ok. High school is about teaching trades, for those that should not go to college. It is also useful to teach how to prepare papers for the college professor.

There's a difference between operating, maintaining and servicing a PC, which represent different levels of skill. A person whose job or daily activities does not involve routine and/or major access and use of a computer system doesn't need, for example, to know the difference between PCI-e, PCI and ISA bus architectures, or how to change BIOS and/or jumper settings on a motherboard to change the bus speed. Conversely, a person who works as a PC technician would have no excuse for not knowing where to find "Control Panel" on a Windows PC, let alone how to install a new program on the machine.

I saw that someone talked about cars. There's a good example right there. The majority of people out there who have a driver's license and own their own vehicle do *not* have the faintest idea of how their vehicle's engine turns the gasoline they pump into it 1 or more times a week into the energy that makes it move (beyond the most basic "it burns the gasoline in the 'cylinders'"). They don't know that, for the engine to operate efficiently, it has to blend the correct ratio of fuel to air; that this used to be handled by a finely-crafted mechanical device called a 'carburator', which I remember as a child being replaced by a computer chip that the manufacturers then used as a marketing tool with the "EFI" [for Electronic Fuel Injection] logo on cars for about a decade before it became ubiquitous among all modern engines; and that now there are any number of faults that can throw that off (ah, the dreaded 'failed O2 sensor' of the 1980s Chrysler K-cars...).

But do they need to? Of course not! As long as the average driver knows the basics of *operating* the vehicle (turn key to start, gas to go/gas & clutch for manual transmission [formerly known as 'standard' transmission, from when automatic wasn't the standard], brake to stop, turn wheel to steer, watch gauges to ensure proper speed/operating temperature/adequate fuel supply/lights on for nighttime driving), they don't even need to have any knowledge of basic maintenance or the principles behind how the vehicle works...as long as there's someone else who does have the knowledge & can provide the service for them. And even if you have more in-depth knowledge, it doesn't mean you're an expert on it. I may know how to change my own oil (having helped my father many times over the years when he'd change it on the family cars), but I have neither the time nor the inclination to spend even 1 Saturday morning every few months doing it, when for a few extra dollars I can pay a certified expert to do it in less than half the time. Plus, if he screws up the work and my engine is damaged, I'm not the one that pays to have it fixed.

So, as long as the school provides them with enough basic knowledge that they can operate a PC without breaking it or being scared of it, *even if they don't know how to perform basic maintenance on it*, that's all that's needed. If they want to learn more, more power to them. But if they don't, that's quite all right, because that's their choice. You don't need to have the skill set of a PC technician, for example, if your 'dream' job doesn't involve you troubleshooting PC technical issues, so why waste teachers' time and taxpayers' money teaching you unnecessary knowledge? Save it for the kids that are truly interested. They'll be more attentive, the teacher will feel more fulfilled since the students' interest levels are higher, and the budget needs will be lower (meaning less cuts somewhere else).

TLDR: Millennials are more "tech savvy" than prior generations, but they lack the needed critical thinking skills... and today's public school systems are not adequate enough, both in classroom technology and the teaching of such technology.
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Today's students are more technologically savvy than any other generation before them. I am on the cusp of Gen X and being a Millennial (aka: the Net Generation/Gen Y), but I was fortunate to grow up in a house with a computer that used 5" floppies and MS-DOS. Both my brother and I were taught to utilize computers as a tool to work for us rather than "work on computers."

I have done extensive research on Millennials (in fact, I think when I go back for my Ph.D. I will make them part of my dissertation). Here is what I have discovered.

First and foremost, today's public schools do not encourage as much critical thinking as is required for a well-rounded education. With all the structure, teachers are considered (and expected to be) subject-matter experts. Lectures are the key to learning and interactivity is minimum. Students are told what to think and what to learn; they are not often given the opportunity to think critically and make informed decisions. Such a skill is imperative when working with computers.

With Millennial's reliance on technology, and increases in technology, they are not forced to think critically. They have a mouse and GUI that will do things for them, right? Wrong. But they are not taught that. Even basic computer skills are lacking. And if they go to college, they take a 1-3 credit hour computing course where they follow step-by-step instructions in a book on how to create a formula in Excel or how to add a header in Word... but they learn very little and retain even less. After all, isn't the computer supposed to do "it" for me?

Don't get me wrong... there are TONS of positive things that Millennials do (and will) contribute to society. But strictly technologically, unless they have a keen interest in technology, they lack the necessary skills needed to adequately utilize the computer. Do they have the ability to use the computer more innately than many Baby Boomers and prior generations (aka: their grandparents)? Yes. The knowledge curve is definitely on the positive side. However, it's the basic skills they lack, and in my opinion, it all goes back to critical thinking. Even 8 year-olds are now text messaging, expecting T9 or SmartText to finish their words for them on their hip new iPhone or Droid.

TLDR: Millennials are more "tech savvy" than prior generations, but they lack the needed critical thinking skills... and today's public school systems are not adequate enough, both in classroom technology and the teaching of such technology.

Quality of computer training varies by locale, country, state, country, school district, even school. This is a pretty tough poll to respond to without narrowing the scope.

"But I also have met many 20+-somethings that have no knowledge of how a PC works or how their Apple iPod stores their favorite songs. They have never seen one of our Cracking Open Photo Galleries and wouldn?t understand what they reveal, nor do they want to. They are perfectly happy in their blissful ignorance and look to others to repair and restore their PCs and other electronic gadgets from any security transgressions they may have made."

I don't expect a user to know how to service a computer any more than to service her car. They're both tools, and understanding how they work or how to maintain them (or any other tool) isn't a requirement to effective operation. That 'effective operation' includes appropriate safety and security measures, like wearing seat belts or installing anti-malware. It includes ensuring routine maintenance is performed (changing oil, installing service packs), even if the user doesn't perform them for himself.

Yes, I expect the responses to be based on location and experience.

I used to know how to service my car, but they got too complicated for me to keep up with, which makes me kind of sad actually. My first car was a 1972 Nova with a 307 V-8 engine and I spent weekends tweaking it.

Edited for better wording.

Who stuffed that in there? You, Mark? That goes way beyond "how to service".

In the big picture, it's the people who learn the least that define the benefit of the training per se.
People don't need to know how to service their computers, but they need to know that, following the car analogy; using seat belts is highly conducive to safety; it's not safe to leave it unlocked downtown; and it's not safe to pull over to read a map with your window down in certain cities and suburbs.
The security awareness baseline needs to be raised... as per the "womans perspective on IT security" thread, this is where reducing the number of zombie computers can be achieved easiest, and most lastingly.

I swear the average person thinks Facebook IS the internet.

I don't blame the schools though, its the technologies fault. Back when I was in school, the computers (Mac and Windows) crashed and errored so often, and were complicated enough, that you had to learn something about them.

I miss the old green screen days.

... that *Google* is the internet.

They know more than my husband in how to use the computer, surf, install and play games but I feel that they need much more education on how to avoid the bad stuff.

The schools here use the computers a alot in the education process, but those computers already have failsafes in place to protect kids and prevent them from getting someplace they're not supposed to be. Because of this I think they forget to teach kids about the bad things that are out there on the web and in emails.

I, personally, schooled (nagged?) my kids on the specifics of what NOT to do while online. So far, they've been doing pretty good with only a few minor things like Weatherbug and a couple of registry cleaners being accidentally installed. (knock on wood) I think my husband's PC has encountered more problems than any of the kids!

As others said it depends on location obviously. I wouldn't take that to mean it needs to be a private school or a big school or an upper class community even, though.

When I was in high school, we had a number of computer classes for the general student body. They were all probably electives, but you pretty much had to take at least a few because there weren't a ton of other options anyway. You could learn all of the Office products very well. There was a web design class or two (associated with the art department at that time). There were Photoshop/Illustrator classes (associated with the art department). There were "independent" art classes where you signed up and basically got free reign to do whatever you wanted digitally in any medium you wanted, you just picked a project and worked on it and were subjectively graded. There was also the yearbook class, I did that my senior year and basically spent a few hours in Pagemaker or Illustrator every day for a year. But again, none of these were mandatory so if a student didn't have interest, they didn't have interest and probably didn't take any of them. I think keyboarding was the only required class, and that was actually in 7th or 8th grade not high school.

One thing that was a bit mind boggling is the number of macs in the school environment vs PCs. I don't think I knew one person who had a "personal" Mac at home, yet about 2/3 of our computers were Macs in the school. Granted, they were very easy to use but more importantly the administrator controls for Macs were really functional versus a PC where our administrators couldn't figure out how to allow us the right permissions.

The school's IT administrator at the time sought out me and a friend to help him out actually. He proposed and created a class that the two of us took part in for 2 years, where every day for an hour or so we would either follow him around or fix things, or he would tell us what needed fixing and we'd go at it.

So for me personally, I look back and think they did more than I should have expected.

This was in a public school, in a middle class rural town of 8000 in southern Illinois. This was 11-14 years ago now. I'm sure things have evolved and matured a lot since then.

The problem is the legislators who decree what should be a part of the curriculum and the teachers who teach it are generally too old. For the most part they do not understand the technology and at best barely understand the value of it. As we have a society more advanced in technology finally reflected in these positions then technology education will move forward, from basic use to some actual understanding.

It is also my opinion that advanced computer knowledge still carries with it the oft perpetuated negative geek stigma, which pushes many away from wanting to know anything about computers.

People have the oppertunity to learn, but there will always be people who neither want to knw or have any incling of why they should know and unfortunatly they are the majority.
Most people don't know how their toaster works, even though they could easily just lean over it and figure it out for themselves. The question is why do we think that they should? They do a lot of other things, we do computers.
Yes the whole security thing is there but that is not their fault, or ours, but the fault is on those who criminally abuse computer security issues who we really should focus on.

The majority of what I have seen being taught is more of the here is how to move the mouse, type on the keyboard and find things on google than any actual practical education. If they taught more of the "Why" to complement the "How" we might actually see computer-savvy young people entering the work force that everyone keeps claiming is going to happen since people entering the work force now have had computers around them all their lives.

Teaching them basic keyboarding, how to point and click, and introducing them to MS Office? If that's adequate, yes, they do. But it's like teaching a teenager to drive without also teaching them how to check the oil, change a tire, or read a road map.

As a senior in HS who is about to graduate I find that technology education is lacking tremendously. I have had plenty of keyboarding education but that is just a memorization thing. What I think the problem is now is that students are used to being handed the instructions on how to do something instead of figuring it out on their own. This causes massive problems down the line because people decide that they have the excuse for not knowing how to do it even though a simple Google search would lead them right where they need to go. As far as I am aware, there are no states that have a computer education requirement even though businesses rely on computers heavily. Many of the students I go to school with daily know the absolute simplest functions of Office but do not know how they can truly benefit from using that software to its full extent.

The requirement in South Carolina is a keyboarding class taken in middle school and a single course in high school (usually Intro to Technology) at the career center. As of when I left the classroom in 2005, most of the other 49 states had the same minimal requirement.

BTW, what matters here is your contribution, not your status. You're a student, no problem. That your first post on TR is reasoned and well-expressed says much in your favor.

Adequate is not the question - necessary is.

The skillset necessary to interact, program, utilize a computer takes a very limited time. One can go from first introduction to user in less than 6 months, and proficient about 6 months later.

What is lacking greatly is critical thinking and computation. How about we teach them to use the computers in their heads first and then the one on the desk? How about removing the calculators until trig/calc?

Each year another graduating class that knows more about less attempts to enter college with less aptitude (sp) and character.

I don't care if my children are taught anything at school about computer use. If they have acquired the ability to think, analyze, and compute between their ears, a piece of hardware will present little challenge.

Unfortunately, your voice is one in the wilderness.

You interject into a discussion about iterations of buggy whips by buggy-whip aficionados.

Computers should be tools, like pencil and paper, to advance education, develop critical thinking skills, develop communication skills, etc.

There are those who want and need to know far more than the basic skills- like most of this august group (certainly not me and yes I know it's may and not august) but really kids pick up the fundamentals that turn computers into effective tools very very easily.

Everyone does NOT need to know how pencils and paper are made in order to use them.

Help them to acquire the ability to think, analyze, and compute between their ears. Unless of course we prefer sheeple.

they prefer to be sheeple. Much easier to let somebody else think for you; all you have to do then is react appropriately.

Dittos, anybody?

teens or users?

Or, at least, Americans in general.

If you have access, check out Cable Noise Network or Faux News. An hour on each should clarify matters quite nicely...

Rupert and Teds Excellent Adventure

Well... spin endurance training is great if you want to be an astronaut, right?

But for that purpose, I'd much prefer a centrifuge...