Discussion on:

The attacks on the aid flotilla to Gaza?

whats your openion ?

There are people who live in tents made to left their own homes or may be their homes destroyed on them and the world was blind??good people from many countries just want to give them food and medicine ??..the good people are attacked too??.and I am sure the world will still blind

I was at the demonstration in SF on Saturday. Most of the organizations represented were loony left. But the probelm set would be largely resolved if the Israelis could be made to respect property rights, which are not a forte of the loony left. Where are Libertarians for Palestine? Republicans for Palestine? John Birch for Palestine? Tea Party for Palestine?

So in addition to the loony left, you'd like to see the loony right too?

In his brief time here, maak_123 has acquired a reputation for trolling, posting anything he thinks will get attention. You may want to consider not rewarding him further, but if you think you can get an intelligent discussion out of him then best of luck to you.

Spam?? Really?

Egads, talk about the wussification of the human species.

That far right, you get lots of fundamentalist Christians, who would tend to side with Jewish Israel rather than Islamic Palestinians, at least for now.

Yes, they think that the Biblical Israel is a nation, although the Bible (Nm 23:9) says it is not, and that the Israelis are the national descendants of the Israelites in Palestine at the time of Xt, which they are not (the Palestinians, the first majority-Xn nation, are). But Libertarians are not Fundamentalist Xn. What about Christians for Palestine (about 12% of the Palestinians today are Xn) on the basis of Dt 5:19? Why not maxwell for Palestine? The absence of the right, whether or not raving, is curious.

..is for sale.
Palestinians don't have the green for that.
Also, the right can't say anything about Israel, because Hitler was (sort of) right wing. Actually just loony, period.
But zionists will smack an antisemite (read "nazi") label on any goyem even remotely right wing who says anything remotely critical of even the most corrupt practices of the most corrupt fringe groups of Israel.

but it is a fact that the Zionists were linked with the Nazis, and at least one relevant document is available in photocopy from US National Archives (taken from a drawer in the RHSA building in Berlin at the end of WW II); this can be pointed out, and the left might use it too, but it rarely comes up. And the left gets called "anti-Semitic" too (as though the Ashkenazim were Semitic and the Palestinians weren't...), and seems to survive. Furthermore, in California at least the left can be bought and often is. Finally, the Libertarians don't have much money, so why aren't they pro-Palestinian on the property-rights issue?

I pay serious attention to you or anyone else re this subject, is when you pick up an AK and go to work.

In which case, if you are serious, you don't say a word about it. You just do it.

You otherwise engage in empty, armchair bickering. Your Egyptian friend included. I doubt he has a serious bone in his body.

Like you, John.

you've probably heard it all, not limited to, the truth, the TRUTH and everything BUT the truth.

The Zionists? The Libertarians? And there is something dangerous about your attitude, if I understand it rightly: discussion decides on which side to pick up the AK, and picking up the AK should not be the only way of getting attention. If the League of nations had paid attention to the 1920 Jerusalem riots we would not have the Nakba now (although doubtless we would have some kind of problem in the Holy Land).

That you would puzzle over picking up an AK the way you would puzzle picking up the clean end of a turd.

Where are Libertarians for Palestine? Republicans for Palestine? John Birch for Palestine? Tea Party for Palestine?

I ask, where's Palestine?

Obviously
How do you see the natural rights of the arabs of Gaza and the West Bank being handled by their overlords?

At least that's what I recall you telling me not too long ago.

There's a difference. I am sometimes rejecting in demeanor about new things, but I let them percolate, too see how they align themselves.
Naturally, I am eager to put newly acquired information to the test, and since you introduced me to the concept, you're the perfect sounding board.

The Natural Rights of Man - the principle upon which the United States, itself, was formed - is a concept foreign to most nations of the middle-east, or so it seems to me. (Heck, it's becoming less and less of an important concept in the Unites States!)

You ask, "How do you (I) see the natural rights of the Arabs of Gaza and the West Bank being handled by their overlords?

(I assume the overlords of whom you speak are the Israelis.)

I can't address how the Israelis may or may not respect the natural rights of the Arabs of Gaza and the West Bank. But it seems to me that the, so-called, Palestinians don't respect the natural rights of man either - Israeli or otherwise.

How to get both to respect the natural rights of the other?

I have no idea. I doubt that it's even remotely possible.

I will say this, however; it's the designed role of government (at least in the United States) to guarantee its citizens the protection of those rights. Until governments in the middle-east value the concept, it will never be protected.

And like I said, even in the United States, the designed protector of natural rights has become the biggest violator of them.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/june_2010/48_see_government_today_as_a_threat_to_individual_rights

Had the colonies failed to throw off the yoke of english rule, and been thrown into a long-running resistance battle, and displacement by new colonists loyal to the crown... would they have been entitled to stop respecting the natural rights of their oppressors?

You asked, "Had the colonies failed to throw off the yoke of English rule, and been thrown into a long-running resistance battle, and displacement by new colonists loyal to the crown... would they have been entitled to stop respecting the natural rights of their oppressors?"

Judging by the tone and wording of your question, you're obviously sympathetic to the Arab and/or Palestinian side of the issue - unless, of course, you're suggesting it's the Israelis who are being oppressed.

Nonetheless, I don't believe the American Revolution and the current middle-east problem are at all comparable. Moreover, regardless of what position the United States government might take, or what opinion other Americans might hold, I've simply not cared enough to form an educated and informed position one way or the other. I realize that Israel is the only staunch U.S. ally in the middle-east, but I'm neither pro-Israel or anti-Israel. I have, however, said on many occasions that Israel should be recognized as having a right to exist - an assertion many of their enemies disagree with. (I'm open to having my mind changed, however; so make your case for the elimination of the Israli State and the disposition of its people.)

As such, the real question, I suppose, is this. Was the creation of Israel in 1948, itself, a justifiable act? That question, it seems to me, is the underlying premise of the whole issue? (Or should all the Jews, as Helen Thomas - that illustrious American journalist - suggested, all go back to Poland and Germany?)

Having said all that, Israel and its surrounding problems is simply not a hot-button issue for me. As such, you should probably answer your own questions and let the chips that define your own opinion fall wherever they may.

Heck, all I did was to ask john.a.wills, since he referred to it, where Palestine was. I looked, but I simply don't see it on any map that I currently have.

Edited: to add my Helen Thomas question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc4OeRu7cfs

(Spoken like a true and unbiased journalist!)

is not for using just because you don't like a post.

There's more than enough legitimate spam here, and on the other CBS owned boards she moderates of late to keep Tammi too busy as it is. All you do by marking posts you don't like as spam is add to her already mind-boggling workload.

You've become the little boy who cried wolf.

Did Maak mark his own post as spam?

James

all sorts of non-spam as spam. Filling up my Inbox with nonsense.

Just wondering. Would make things easier...

It's not like it's unheard of... Elsewhere it's even tougher; I got my posting rights revoked to another site for making a guess about future developments in a certain japanese cartoon... apparently I should have known I'd be right on target six months in advance and consequently posted to the Spoiler board.

You don't have to understand French. Just watch the video. As they say "a picture is worth a thousand words."


http://www.terredisrael.com/wordpress/?p=22059

You want to say that the food and the medicine turned to weapons. I think that the little thinking will make it clear for every one of us. They attack then they took every thing they killed many people who had human rights activities. The entire world angry with Israel, then what do you think they will do? They will say to the world -yes we didn`t find any thing except food and medicine- huh I don?t think so. They took every thing and they can put any thing they want and according to the Israel media they could make any thing to show them selves innocent to the blind world Wake up dear think behind the things don?t make any one lighten your mind, and if you want another videos for the children who die from hunger who die from the effect of the internationally forbidden weapons you will find if you want. But if you want to keep your eyes closed and so your mind it?s your choice but know that we live a short life try to make it a good one

because the government hans't told it, just this independent Youtube group. Actually, the Turkish customs checked the flotilla for weapons before the it set sail. But that won't convince some people.

that the Turks would never lie about weapons.

but they haven't, or at least their government hasn't.

instead of trying to change the subject again, do you agree or disagree that Turkish customs could be lying about the weapons?

And if they lied about such things, it would have threatened both of those things.

Turkey's ties with Isreal have been eroding, but ten years ago they were very strong and included military co-operation and arms sales.

James

Turkey is currently in the process of buying some jet fighters from the Israelis and did not cancel the deal when the flotilla was attacked.

...there may be a huge penalty to back out.

In Canada in the 90s, a conservative gov't signed a 5 billion dollar deal for both shipboard and search and rescue choppers. When the Liberals defeated the conservatives, they cancelled the contract and paid a 1 billion dollar penalty. Then they went back and ran the selection again - and guess what - they selection committee chose the same copter. The S&R ended up with a slightly less expensive version of the same copter.

Turkey may be bound by a deal.

James

So if I think a US ship is headed to Canada smuggling guns or drugs, I can board it in international waters and thats ok?

Thats piracy, and thats why our navies are off Somalia right now.

If there had been guns, there would have been a press conference. According to the Turks and the activitists, it contained such banned substances as paper and concrete, both items Isreal is blocking from Gaza.

If the boat had been in Isreali waters, I don't have a problem.

Didn't the US start a war (1812) because the Royal Navy were doing something similar?

James

is that it doesn't represent the actual issue.

How about this one instead: Newfoundland is shooting rockets and focusing terrorist attacks at Quebec. If Quebec suspected a US ship of bringing in more rockets and weapons that would be used against Quebec citizens, do they have a right to protect themselves by stopping the ship and searching it?

that 80% of the population of Newfoundland were Quebec citizens kept in exile because of their language or their religion, whose government was refusing at gunpoint to let them home and was making sporadic terror raids into Newfoundland, bombing police academy graduations and the like. Suppose furthermore that Quebec had been blockading Newfoundland for several years.

that the leaders of Newfoundland had stated numerous times that they wanted to see the total destruction of Quebec.

But really what does Hamas mean by the destruction of the Israeli state? Merely that borders should be redrawn to form a single sovereign state in historical Palestine, a perfectly legitimate political aim. It is the Israeli state as a repressor of its own non-Rabbinical_Jewish people that has to go. There is no threat of genocide, as the Zionists are attempting against the Palestinians.

I'm sure the innocent victims of their rocket attacks and terrorist activities would have a different view of their ultimate goal.

You may want to paint them as mistreated and repressed individuals, but others see them as cowards who hide behind women and children to fire their rockets at innocent civilians.

Rather than relying on rhetoric, I'll let the actual actions of both sides speak for themselves.

Hamas have said more than once that they will not be happy until there are no living Jews remaining in Palestine.

It's enshrined in their charter: "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
http://english.varsavskyfoundation.org/politics/hamas-victory-israel-needs-a-plan-b.html

It's proclaimed in videos by suicide bombers: http://www.haaretz.com/news/hamas-suicide-bombers-videotape-we-drink-jews-blood-1.180181

Yet you believe Hamas will settle for a mere redrawing of borders? Foolish.

Reinstate the Kingdom of Jerusalem!
One state for two peoples, both as second class citizenry, under Pope Innocentus Braunschweig!

In Israeli waters, where the ship was already going to go, Israel had the right to stop the ship.

I don't agree with any country stopping ships in international waters and sending on an armed boarding party to seize the ship. Its a bad precedent. The only exception is at time of war.

James

They do have the right to stop and search ships in international waters because of a lawful blockade. The only debate would be whether the blockade was legal.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article7142055.ece

And if these ships were carrying food and medicine for hungry and ill children, is that the freedom? And is that the human right? I don`t think so. At USA you have a big rights to animals but when talking about the occupied land every one can`t hear ,can`t see we all in the world consider our selves blind. And to those who defend Israel do you imagine that there is still occupied land at the 2010 year at the century of freedom there still a land took from their owners did that come to your mind ? What will you feel if some one took your farm before cropping? If they took your own home and tell you that from now you have no home, no right, no voice you have no thing even the children we will take them if you are in this position what you will do. Do you will say thank you for taking my land, for taking my home and for killing my relatives and family. You know, the truth will remain for ever for the generations after us and they will blame us for not being humans.

wihtout boarding it?

Since the stupid palestinians can't keep their hands off bombs and rockets, they have to be watched like little kids.

If they would get down to peace then they would probably lift the blockade and even before that the gazan economy would improve. But instead they want to carry on a 6000 year old vendetta.

There were al-quaeda mercenaries on board that one ship. since goods can be dropped off for inspection and delivery to gaza the only reason to try and run the blockade is a setup to cause trouble.

The reports I've seen, from such loonie lefties as BBC(sarcasm alert) reported many peace activists on board, including Americans and Canadians, but no Al Qaeda. Those on the boat who attacked the troops boarding carried clubs and rebar, not guns. Would anyone from Al Qaeda take on a mission without guns?

Turkey inspected the vessel before it left and the international observers were there to see there was no funny stuff going on. One of the items being imported was cement, which is on the banned list.

Take a look at the blockade list;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

1.5 million people are living on one quarter of what they received in 2005.

I don't like or condone Hamas, but Israel is punishing 1.5 million people for the actions of their leaders.

Continuing this blockade only strengthens Hamas.

James

They're being hounded like animals.
The Israelis don't want peace.
Why do you think they keep springing plans to expand illegal settlements?
Why do you think they keep using ineffective retaliatory tactics that punish civilians and increase hostilities?

They want the conflict to continue forever, because they think they'll eventually get what they really want.

They want the whole of Israel to themselves.
They want all non-jewish out, including christians, moslems, buddhists, whatever.
Did you know you'll get spat on for wearing a cross openly in orthodox jewish neighbourhoods in Israel? They don't care that the nazies were against christianity too, because it's not about that.
It's about being pure.
A pure homeland for a pure people.

Now the ones I'm talking about are not a majority, but they hold that power anyway. There is a national consencus to do this, to appease the religious right wing nuts who want that, because a civil war is to be avoided at all costs.