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    <title><![CDATA[Discussion on Poll: Are deadlines necessary for programmers? ]]></title>
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        <title><![CDATA[Why are you here?]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3338411]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Didn't I say you should hit &quot;Next&quot; if you actually live in a Dilbert Universe?]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3338411]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Marc Thibault]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Fri, 06 Aug 2010 15:22:07 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[First part of the poll]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3337706]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[&quot;In most situations, I don?t think that giving programmers deadlines makes much sense. If you assign a project to a mature adult, he or she should do it as quickly as possible without compromising quality. It is not as though a project deadline will make the work go any quicker or that setting an impossible deadline will allow a programmer to defy the laws of project reality.&quot;You could say the same for engineers, various types of contstruction, ANY type of job where schedules are necessary.  When the project changes, yes the deadlines have to change or more people should be added, if possible.  It does NOT invalidate the necessity for a deadline within a schedule.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3337706]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[melias@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:00:15 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Amen]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3337095]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[I got !@#$'d badly once by management demanding the addition of so many things, to what started as a very simple, narrowly focused project.It was early on in my career so I wasn't equipped to handle the ramifications of what seemed like minor features being demanded.You have to have a PM that understands SW Dev and is willing to stand up and fight for the right things.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3337095]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[jedmondson@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Wed, 04 Aug 2010 15:55:52 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[RE: Poll: Are deadlines necessary for programmers?]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336852]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Yes..but realistic.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336852]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[techvinny]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Wed, 04 Aug 2010 08:19:40 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Wow, did you misread!]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336838]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[You know why I don't think giving programmers deadlines make any sense? Because there is no really good way of determining what the deadline should be. It's not like, say, building a car at a factory. The steps for building a car do not change at all, once you have built a few, you know how long it takes to build that model of vehicle.But you know what else? I don't believe that programming work is unique, either. Construction projects are often late for the same reason, unless they are building cookie cutter items like houses in a subdivision. Auto mechanics' true time on a project is frequently nowhere near their estimate, which is why they don't bill you based on actual time. And so on.&quot;A deadline is an agreement between two, what was it Justin? oh yeah - mature adults, about the scope of the work being requested and when it can be completed taking into account the &quot;programmer's&quot; current workload. Believe it or not with most &quot;mature adult PM's&quot; the discussion includes reasonability of time spent vs. work requested. The deadline is not arbitrary as some have stated (not at the PM level anyway - the VP, that's another story) but it is the culmination of a discussion and a professional agreement. It is not do it by this date or else, it is you told me it would take 2 weeks, I gave you THREE, so don't give me any complaints when I expect you to live up to your agreement.&quot;When things work like this (which I agree is the ideal), then it is barely even a &quot;deadline&quot;. Seriously. It is an agreed upon date of completion, which is completely different from what is standard in the industry.Let me relate a story. I've been working with a graphics designer on a personal project. I asked for a logo to be made. I don't know what his process is, how long it takes for the creative juices to flow, or whatever. While I had in the back of my head a date that would make my life easier if the work was done by, I know that *I can't rush a good job*. Something like graphic design, when the work is done, the work is done. Can I ask for a ballpark date? Sure. But I also know from personal experience (both working closely with graphics designers and from dabbling in it myself) that some things just take longer than expected. Maybe &quot;the great idea&quot; didn't pop into mind at once. Perhaps the effect that you want takes much longer to create than you expected. And so on. Am I going to tell this person, &quot;I need it by this date!&quot; (that's a deadline)? Nope. Because I know that I'll get sub-par work. I asked him, &quot;about when do you think this can be done by?&quot; And he gave me a date that worked well for me. This is the difference between a negotiated finish date and a deadline.Now, when he blew the negotiated finish date, then yes, we had a problem. After all, as you say, I let him make the rope, and he hung himself by it. Luckily, on this particular project it wasn't critical... I needed an ETC more for money management than anything else. But at the same time, if it was a project on the job, it would have been pretty disastrous.So yeah, it's not that I'm as stupid as you seem to think I am. We are actually in agreement for the most part. I just don't think that handing someone a date and saying, &quot;I need this by then&quot; works out well. If you as the manager accepted a deadline without having a project plan, and then think that you can just pass that down to the person who is doing the work, you are wrong. This may be how many companies operate, but it is not a sound business practice.J.Ja]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336838]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin James]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Wed, 04 Aug 2010 08:10:55 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[That's exactly my thoughts too]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336832]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[You hit the nail on the head. That's how I've always liked to work too. The problem I've found is that so many people have been abused over the years by bad managers, they are unable to work like this. They just do not know how to function without an oppressive overlord putting them in situations which demand death marches or constant (emotional) beatings. You set them free and they just kind of mill around. Maybe they can adapt to things eventually, but it's hard to tell.In general, I try to not give people deadlines. I'll tell them what their priorities are and expect them to work full steam on #1 until it becomes held up or done then go to #2 and so on. I might tell them what funny, arbitrary date *my* bosses expect. My expectation is that a grown adult will then get things done in the best time possible. This often works out, but some folks just can't handle the responsibility and think no deadline means that it's unimportant.J.Ja]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336832]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin James]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Wed, 04 Aug 2010 07:29:15 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[RE: Poll: Are deadlines necessary for programmers?]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336619]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[This poll starts with a flawed premise (sorry Justin it just doesn't work on planet earth).In Justin James' opening paragraph he starts with this sentence:&quot;In most situations, I don?t think that giving programmers deadlines makes much sense.&quot; My only rational response to that is that if Justin James was on my project team I would spend copious amounts of time petitioning to have him removed from the project and also suggest that we never work with him again (i.e. fired or taken off the approved contractors list).C'mon dude.  Are you insane?  What makes a programmer so much above the rest of us mere mortals that you think they can do their work whenever they see fit, on their own schedule, without regard to &quot;arbitrary&quot; deadlines.Oh yeah, let's not forget Justin's qualification:&quot;If you assign a project to a mature adult, he or she should do it as quickly as possible without compromising quality.&quot;Duh!Well of course this makes sense because this mature adult has absolutely nothing else to do but your project.  Yeah right.Reality check Justin (sorry I'm using your name so much but you brought it up) - project managers, QA testers, business analysts, DBA's and yes the very hallowed programmers all have work assignments that have NOTHING to do with your project.That in a nutshell, the fact that I have to actually tell you that, tells me that you have no concept of what a project deadline means or why it is necessary.  It is not, as one poster has stated, only for project managers. (btw I am both a programmer - currently web apps with PHP/Zend, and a PM).  A deadline is an agreement between two, what was it Justin?  oh yeah - mature adults, about the scope of the work being requested and when it can be completed taking into account the &quot;programmer's&quot; current workload.  Believe it or not with most &quot;mature adult PM's&quot; the discussion includes reasonability of time spent vs. work requested.  The deadline is not arbitrary as some have stated (not at the PM level anyway - the VP, that's another story) but it is the culmination of a discussion and a professional agreement.  It is not do it by this date or else, it is you told me it would take 2 weeks, I gave you THREE, so don't give me any complaints when I expect you to live up to your agreement.Sorry Justin I can't give your incredible ignorance of real life any more time.The poll questions?  Equally flawed:  - Nothing gets done without deadlines.- Some people or projects do not need deadlines.- Deadlines are completely arbitrary and useless.How about Deadlines are an agreement or a contract. Programmers (hello Justin) who don't get this are, hmmm, whiners at best.  If you can't live up to your word then don't give it in the first place.they should do it as quickly as possible...sheesh]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336619]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[jrussell_fl@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 23:52:58 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Nope]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336627]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[A deadline is effectively an indicator of priority, but a list with high, medium and low would do that job.It's easy to get in a situation where deadlines can't be met, priorities always can though.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336627]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Tony Hopkinson]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 23:09:41 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[A little more complicated...]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336511]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Deadlines need to be involved from the start of any project planning* At the start the client / end user needs to define when they need the project completed by * The coder / project manager needs the Deadline to determine what is realistically achievable (if the client wants the earth in a month the deadlines, or scope, can be made more realistic up front)The problem in most coding projects I have seen is poor planning from the start where expectations and capabilities are not properly defined to start with ... and because of that mis-step at the start the deadlines become arbitrary and meaningless]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336511]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[AdamHorsten]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 17:20:31 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Without deadlines, programmers wont know what to prioritize]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336492]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[I believe deadlines are important to managers as well as to programmers. Some programmers can self motivate but it's not the only factor to get the things done. If a programmer have 10 tasks on his table, he has to prioritize them and this is only possible by knowing the deadline of each task.  I just hate hearing this from a boss: &quot;I need it YESTERDAY&quot;.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336492]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[paul_p_vargas@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 17:04:48 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[RE: Poll: Are deadlines necessary for programmers?]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336502]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[I think many projects need deadlines, but it all dependent on the client's wants! If they want to see progress &amp; want to be able to put out livedates, then they should have deadlines. If they have a live date, but just want the project for then, I think the programmer just needs to check in to show progression.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336502]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Envy-Tech]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 16:51:40 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Deadlines are quite important....]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336500]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[As a student, it's hard for us to meet deadlines especially if a program must be finished within a short period of time. A deadline must be realistic. Just like if you asked us to do a very complex program, as an experienced mentor, you should know our capability when we can finish the program.On the other hand, it sets my works in a hierarchy of priorities, therefore helping me which one to finish first.   ]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336500]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[charmaine khay]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 16:46:12 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Impossible no,]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336373]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[late and over budget yes.Deadlines are useful in that, they give you a good comparison between where you are and where management wished you were.A bit less of the eyes tightly closed and fingers fiercely crossed approach on their part would be useful.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336373]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Tony Hopkinson]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 13:08:43 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[All extremely obvious yet management]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336370]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[put an extraordinary amount of effort into denying this truth and then blaming us types who 'know nothing about business'.You'll be suggesting quality should be inherrent to the process next, instead of an optional extra task you end up backing out of.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336370]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[Tony Hopkinson]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 13:03:21 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Nothing more productive than a good deadline]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336328]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[If you can't set a deadline, then you are telling me that your project is not even worthy of your full attention. So, it goes down to the bottom of the pile until you wake up. Unless, of course, the project outline includes a hamburger and milkshake.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336328]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[ron_r_a]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 12:00:04 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Deadlines should be flexible, NOT etched in stone]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336317]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Invariably there is a level of unpredictability with any project. If everything was completely predictable before a project kickoff then all deadlines could be firmly set to a specific date. However, reality dictates a different approach: have a tentative deadline with some slack time to cover contingencies, such as: hardware not delivered on time, libraries not updated or released on time, developers not completely sure how to perform a task, fuzzy requirements that may change, etc.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336317]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[kovachevg@...]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 11:42:50 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[Good for you!]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336326]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[That is seriously messed up what management pulled.Good for you!]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336326]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[jk2001]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 11:40:50 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[the main complaint is that requirements change]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336323]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Read the poll - most people believe deadlines are necessary.The main complaint I'm reading is that management add requirements to a project without extending the deadline.That's not a programmer's problem - it's a management problem.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336323]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[jk2001]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 11:26:32 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[politics]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336322]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[They need to add a day to &quot;business school&quot; where they explain that *some* programmers do not pad out their estimates, and aren't playing some political game to maximize their free time.]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336322]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[jk2001]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 11:23:19 -0700</pubDate>
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        <title><![CDATA[goals, milestones, and deadlines]]></title>
        <link><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336274]]></link>
        <description><![CDATA[Deadlines should be the product of defining limited goals and setting milestone dates for completing each goal.If you're late on the earlier milestones, you probably won't make the last one, and miss the deadline.If it's really critical to make the deadline, it's good to know 1/5th of the way through the project, when the first couple milestone deadlines are missed, so you can cut your losses (or increase staff - but that doesn't usually work).]]></description>
        <guid><![CDATA[http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-334048-3336274]]></guid>
        <dc:creator><![CDATA[jk2001]]></dc:creator>
        <pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 10:17:13 -0700</pubDate>
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