Discussion on:

The 10 elite smartphones of 2010

Original post:
http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/hiner/?p=7029

While the iPhone should certainly be in the top 10, and even the top 5 is reasonable, but putting it at #1 just shows that the writer is an iPhone fanboy. There was nothing revolutionary about the iPhone4, and if it wasn't for most that fact that most Apple users are retarded diehards for any Apple products, the iPhone4 should have been a complete flop. Only Apple users would put up with the horrible ATT service with all iPhones, and antenna issues of the iPhone4. I certainly give credit to Apple for developing a phone that is still competitive with very little updating over the past couple of years, but its not #1 on my list for 2010.

Seriously, how much of fanboys can the media be? Does Jobs send you guys free phones and buy you lunch or something? Look at what you wrote about the EVO Hiner. Then re-look at what you wrote about the iPhone. The EVO is a better phone. The iPhone is great, no doubt. It's even better for people who don't know how to use these things since it's sort of "idiot" proof. Is that why you guys like these phone; cause of their easiness?

I was really hoping you wouldn't be an Apple sheep Jason and put the iPhone #1, but of course, like the other sheeple, that's exactly what you did.

Article FAIL.

I'll admit that I actually have an iPhone 4, and my sister has an EVO 4G. I don't really care about one-upping other phones, but with the EVO in mind, considering that her phone seems to always have a dead or dieing battery, and how choppy the interface is compared to the iPhone, the end-user experience could stand a bit of improvement. I will admit that her ability to run more apps without apple's censorship, use her phone as a free wifi access point, etc are pretty nice trade-offs however.

There are ways to get her battery to last a lot longer. I don't have a choppy interface. Neither does anyone else I know... But I agree the battery should be better. I like the iPhone UI. I'm just tired of the media giving so much attention to the iPhone and making it #1 because it was first. That was a few years ago. I remember when the EVO came out and it was the first phone with 4G and many other firsts and Yahoo did a little write up on it. The iPhone 4 comes out a couple weeks later and Yahoo does a huge write up, front page material!

Anyway, tell your sister to go to the Sprint community forums and there are easy posts on how to get better battery use. Hopefully the MR they released recently improves on the battery life as well.

The HTC UI sense is really nice -- especially now that the EVO has Android 2.2 (Froyo). Also, unlike the UI on the iPhone, it's extremely customizable. You can even have your EVO look and feel just like an iPhone if you want. The EVO has 7 home screens and supports widgets and folders. My EVO came with a home screen customized with widgets to control WiFi, BlueTooth, GPS, and 4G -- which helps manage battery life. I purchased a 3500mh battery for $22.00 which gives the EVO fantastic battery life (and considering I got my EVO for $150.00, this was still cheaper than the iPhone or EPIC 4G). After solving the battery problem, this is easily the best smartphone available -- the only complaint one could have is that it's also the biggest, smartphone on the market (but I love the large screen!!).

Again, as I wrote just a second ago, I agree that the iPhone should not be #1, but you comment about the ease of use being a factor...yeah, it kind of is.

If you are rating a smartphone, one factor to consider is how easy it is to use. No one wants to fight with their phone or get a PhD in the phones operating system just to use it no matter how amazing it is.

Wow, thanks. No kidding! Have you used an Android phone yet? I have used the iPhone. They are both easy to use. Have you really had difficulty using a phone? If so, you wouldn't even make it to med school. You obviously missed my point. The iPhone UI is very simple, which IS nice. It was the first smart phone to come out and be so easy for the non-tech but that's one of the main reasons it keeps it's high ranking with people is because it was first. Newer and BETTER phones have come out since. I like the iPhone and if it was on Sprint when it first came out, I would have gotten one in a heartbeat. But that doesn't mean phones like the EVO aren't better. If the iPhone came to Sprint now, I would choose the EVO. Unless you like being married to a monopoly like Apple, open source is the way to go if you have a good phone to go with it. HTC, Samsung and Motorola are making great phones.

Not only is the iPhone the best smartphone on the list, it also has the smartest user base. I did a small sampling of extended family, there families and even some of my clients.This is what I found. iPhone user's had more useful apps and used most on the functions of the phone. Mail, Photos, cameras, Video, Video editing, interfacing with their Mac's (some PC's) large database of contacts and backup of the iPhone. Most (about 95%) of the Other smartphone users did't have a clue on how to do anything with there smartphone. A little games, some contact list and maybe a free app or two. They just used them for taking photos and Messaging. Backup. Forget it. Not one of them had any real idea about backup. So as far as I can see, the new "SmartPhone" user (excluding iPhone users) are dumb. It's just a phone for them with a little texting on the side. " Hay Bro look I have a "Smartphone" Yo Yo

And maybe you should learn how to write before you start typing your standard "Apple is great" drivel. Last time I checked, there was no "i" in versus. But hey, at least you had spell checking to check the rest of the document, too bad the abbreviation "vs" isn't included in your standard spell checker. Apparently, all of your friends and family are as stupid as you are. And clients? Yeah right, like you're smart enough to even have a job, much less run a company. Apple products are popular because they're idiot proof and nothing else. Any moron can use an Apple product, the rest of us are smart enough to learn how to use technology and make up our own mind instead of letting Apple tell us what to buy.

So a tech product that has intuitive software and hardware and is easy to use is somehow a bad thing? Wow.

Those that are slinging insults towards end users for investing in something easy to use really end up making themselves look stupid.

That's why other phones OS's are selling more than Apple I guess, there really are more intuuitive and easier to use phones, that actually offer call quality, greater flexibility and durabililty too.

iPhones are being gobbled up by Apple sheeple but not the masses.

Problem is, there are 2 many sheeple and Apple marketing strategy has been really successful.

It is true that Apple is excellent at marketing. Initially it was like the LInux trend, people chose Mac to be the odd ones out, elitist etc. As someone that does a heap of graphics, audio mixing and video rendering/editing, I agree wholly that MAC's were definitely superior for those tasks, but I preferred the Windows GUI and integration better. With Win7, they have hit the mark. It is fast, allocates and manages processes and tasks very resourcefully, keeps the hard drive and file system in great shape and offers some excellent features.

As for Apple (what I call) iToys, I have seen, owned, used and sold far better devices for years already and don't buy into releasing low quality featureless products at a premium price. Their marketing is flawless, their following is now a mix of those blinded by marketing, those assuming they are the most popular devices available, those who have few needs and like the OS and of course those that just HAVE to in order to fit iin with the anarchist, 'look I'm unique" crowd. People spew the same old BS, just like those who still say how buggy Windows is, how insecure etc. In reality it has improved immensely over the years, from where I also agree it was hideously flawed.

To each his own but nobody's about to convince me that they are better than others, are less restrictive, less expensive, more useful or anything else.

How is that possible when iPhones hold 17% of the worldwide market and almost 25% of the US market? Are you telling me that 17% of the people in the world are Apple "sheeple"? Are you telling me 25% of the people in the US are Apple "sheeple"?

Your logic fails on too many levels, OZ.
Especially when facts are brought into the question.

If even 40% of Apple's sales were to Apple Sheeple.then their actual adoption rate would be 60% of your stated figures, which is hardly an indication of adoption by the masses. Even if they held a 25% market share, and half of them are 'sheeple' then their real market penetration is not exactly dominating the masses at all.

I know plenty of people who have iPhones, mostly freebees from work with free, unlimted usage. Not one of them, most of whom veterans in Telecom, can give you a valid reason they would buy one over another device. Most of them have other, preferred devices for personal too.

You're still assuming that any percentage of iPhone buyers are automatically 'sheeple', a dangerous assumption on your part. You seem to equate anybody that buys an Apple product as a 'sheeple' despite the fact that more people are buying Apple products now than any time in the past. Only 15 years ago, Apple only sold a total of 700,000 computers a year when, aside from the Newton PDA, computers were all they sold. Now they're selling over 100 million computers, and tens of millions of the iPads, iPhones and iPods each over the course of any single year. By your own logic, that means not only have the 'sheeple' bred more 'sheeple,' but have convinced huge numbers of 'the masses' to become 'sheeple'.

Now do you see where your logic is failing?

"You're still assuming that any percentage of iPhone buyers are automatically 'sheeple',

No, I have not said that at all, please quote wuere I have before you make false assertions.

You seem to equate anybody that buys an Apple product as a 'sheeple'

Again, I have bever said any such thing. I HAVE said that a portion of iPhone buyers are sheeple, it is a fact that many people love Apple so much that they will buy practically anything that Apple releases, we have had them say as much on TR for years. Apple fans wait and wait for the next great Apple release of almost anything. They buy multiple iPods when they are released, they have owned ever iPhone from rev 1 when they adopted it purepy because it was an Apple product running iOS, it is a FACT,

I have NEVER, said that everyone that buys Apple is a 'sheeple' I ave in fact VERY clearly explained how a portion of Apple's adoption is from sheeple, increasing initial adoption rates of ANYTHING they release.

If you are going to assert that I have said something, at least put forth some quotes to support your claims. If you are going to continue spewing complete rubbish that you make up in your wee mind, do so on your own as I don't have any interest in discussing what you THINK I said or what you WANT me to have said in order to support your BS.

Have your fun, lie and BS all you like, I'm not interested in trying to have a discussion with you if you are just going to pretend you have a point by saying I have said what I haven't.

"By your own logic, that means not only have the 'sheeple' bred more 'sheeple,' but have convinced huge numbers of 'the masses' to become 'sheeple'."

You seem to understand how viral marketing works, yet you don't even realize that you know it.

While your understanding of markets is that of a grade school kid, you really are lost here, REALLY lost. You are only proving by your lack of being able to grasp basic market trends that you have little hope of nor interest in learning either.

"Apple products are popular because they're idiot proof..."
You just hit the nail on the head. Apple's devices are built for the non-techie--the person who simply wants it to work without having to waste time and money fixing it all the time. Honestly, after 30 years in the technology business, I'm tired and just want to have some fun. I want computers that work without having to spend time tweaking and cleaning on a regular basis. I want a phone that works right without having to put up with arbitrary reboots and freaky signal/app issues. I want a media player that's easy to load and navigate without having to learn a new 'language' for each new model. And despite being a writer, I want my tablet to be easy to carry and use wherever I am, even when I don't have a place to set it down. I might not be able to write a novel without tying a bluetooth keyboard to it, but taking notes, updating databases and proofing photography are simple and quick, letting me do what I need, when I need it, without forcing me to sit down to do it.

Yes, the average consumer is stupid compared to techies. But with Apple's products, they no longer need to rely on you to keep their devices working. Apple's strength is your weakness.

"...wants it to work without having to waste time and money fixing it all the time"

I've owned Symbian and even WinMobile phones for years now, I haven't spent one MINUTE making them work again, as they haven't failed.

You then chime in about your PC repair experiences, as if it relates to smartphones too.

Just because you prefer Mac to PC, because you feel they are more reliable, it has no bearing on the phone market and that Apple still doesn't even come close to challenging the real smartphone makers and their operating systems.

Symbian and RIM smart phones were essentially extensions of the standalone PDA that just added a phone to the device. These smart phones were great for corporate use, but quite honestly they were too difficult for the average consumer, which is exactly why they weren't selling to consumers. WinMobile was hardly any better because, as usual, Microsoft tried to make a mobility device look and work so much like Windows itself that at best it served a niche market that was far more corporate oriented than consumer oriented. It is an established fact that when Apple announced the iPhone in January of '07, RIM believed it impossible that anybody could make a full-screen smart phone with any kind of decent battery life and essentially ignored the new device until after it hit the market and they discovered how Apple had leapfrogged them.

Since then RIM has lost market share to less than 25%, WinMob is down to something like 7% and even Nokia's Symbian is down from a high of over 65% to something like 37%. How can you say Apple (and Android) can't possibly challenge the "real smartphone makers and their operating systems"? It looks to me like the challenge is real and the former leaders are struggling just to stem the tide against them.

Here's the thing: Yes, the Blackberry and Symbian are better established in the corporate world; but a little research finds that executives may use Blackberry for work but an iPhone or Android for personal use. Why? Simply put, they're easier to use than WinMob, Blackberry or Symbian. Corporate efficiency is about the least effort for the most productivity; unfortunately, IT is the least efficient and most expensive single division in any corporate enterprise. Better quality computers and communications could offer less technical overhead and reduce costs significantly. The problem is, the reduced cost would come in the form of fewer technicians needed in IT.

FACT: Symbian is down from 40% to 37%Q3. Apple is far behind RIM Android and Symbian.

FACT: Even after several releases, years of marketing and everything else they put into selling devices, they still lag behind others. I have enterprise devices and personal devices too, no iOS and no iPhone though for either.

5, 10, 20 years from now is completely unpredictable, who knows what will come out or take over from smartphones all together? I digress, if speculation based on market trend offers any foresight, which I agree it really doesn't, then Apple will not see the lead in devices sales any time soon.

Q3 2007
Symbian 68.1%
RIM 10.6%
iPhone 3.2%
WinMob 12.2%

Q3 2008
Symbian 46.6%
RIM 15.2%
iPhone 17.3%
WinMob 13.6%

Q3 2009
Symbian 46%
RIM 21%
iPhone 18%
WinMob 8.8%
Android 3.5%

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/11/03/canalys_q3_2009_iphone_rim_taking_over_smartphone_market.html

"Apple takes the lead in the US smart phone market with a 26% share"
"- With a 33% share, Nokia is still the leading vendor worldwide, but Android-based smart phones grab a quarter of the market"
http://www.canalys.com/pr/2010/r2010111.html

What was that about lagging behind others? Both RIM and Nokia are falling in the smart phone market to Android and iOS. Facts are facts.

Your worldwide stats for Q3 2009 and mine are almost the same, what are you tryiong to propose correcting. 43% is the more commonly found stat for Q3 09 ,compare that to Q3 2010 ans you'll see that mu figures are very accurate.

As for the US market, it barely counts when looking at global adoption rates, US market will always follow trends and is as skewed as their music and media sales stats, again when compared globally.

And ocne again, of COURSE there is a drop is sales across the board, there HAS to be when a new player is in. Did you expect Apple to take a 1& market share and not see ANY change in other device sales? Of course not!

But moving from even 30% share to dominating with a 58% market share is a HUGE feat compared to gaining an initial 25-30%.

"I've owned Symbian and even WinMobile phones for years now,..."
I won't argue this. However, I will argue that except for you and a very few other people, it seems the majority of technicians found Windows Mobile to be buggy at best and very difficult to use for any kind of generalized use--as long as they only used a single application for a given device, they worked fairly well, but they couldn't be used as a POS device, then an inventory counter, then an stocking tool and back to a POS without having issues that tended to slow productivity even compared to paper and pencil. Many reviewers gave WinMob and it's associated devices poor marks for usability. Even Apple quit using WinMob devices as POS tools as soon as they got iOS to the point where the iPod touch could run powerful enough software for the purpose. WP7 appears to be a significant improvement over WinMob 6+, but we'll just have to wait and see how well it will be adopted.

"... [Apple's] following is now a mix of those blinded by marketing, those assuming they are the most popular devices available, those who have few needs and like the OS and of course those that just HAVE to in order to fit iin with the anarchist, 'look I'm unique" crowd."
You make assumptions about users, as I pointed out, calling all of the above 'sheeple'. In the face of the almost total lock on smart phones Nokia and RIM had, devices like the iPhone sold over a million in just over two months when it was introduced and now sells nearly ten times that many in the same amount of time. Yes, maybe, just maybe, that first million were, as you call them, 'sheeple'. If that's true, then their disease is catching because there are now well over 60 million iPhones in use around the world adding up to 17% of the world wide smart phone market with Android phones pulling very nearly the same numbers. If you were to assume that the market itself had remained stable, that would give Apple and Android each 35% of the former market and, as I clearly pointed out from one analyst, even now leaves Nokia's Symbian at only 33% of the current market. My point? Symbian is NOT seeing growth in sales and neither is RIM--all the growth is due to Apple and the Android phones--both types less complex and easier to use as described by nearly every current iPhone/Android user, even those who have jailbroken their iPhones.

"I know plenty of people who have iPhones, mostly freebees from work with free, unlimted usage."
First off, I find it difficult to believe any employer in Canada is giving iPhones away for free to their employees unless, contrary to the majority of reports I have read here in the States, they've decided its security and usability is equal to or superior to what they're already using--usually Blackberry, stateside. If your statement is true about iPhones given away, it gives the lie to your comments about nothing being as good as Symbian and Blackberry. If your statement is true about nothing being as good, it gives the lie to your statement about them being given away. You can't have it both ways. Add to this a comment by one of your fellow countrymen who claims to live reasonably close to you, "The odd part is that Oz-Media and myself live in the same part of Canada yet our experiences are so wildly different in terms of what we see being used in the corporate environment," and what happens is that the majority of the technical types here completely disagree with your viewpoint, even though that same majority is almost as anti-Apple as you.

"And ocne again, of COURSE there is a drop is sales across the board, there HAS to be when a new player is in." That assumes a static market base where the total number of buyers doesn't change. In reality, that number does not remain static and again according the the reports I linked, Nokia's total sales numbers hardly changed yet the market share plummeted because the market itself--the number of buyers--effectively doubled and is still growing. If Nokia really looked at the numbers the way they should, then they'd be proud that they've not lost that much in raw profits or total units sold, only that they haven't grown as rapidly as the market itself is growing.

Finally, to re-touch on one of your first complaints, "Just because you prefer Mac to PC, because you feel they are more reliable, it has no bearing on the phone market and that Apple still doesn't even come close to challenging the real smartphone makers and their operating systems."
My 'feelings' about Apple's reliability is not just opinion and not just anecdotal; Apple's customer satisfaction ratings across the board for hardware and service have maintained a 10-20% lead over all of their competitors for years and has become the world's #3 computer seller in total numbers sold (not counting i-devices) over the likes of Toshiba and Acer despite their massive jump in market share caused by netbooks. That reliability does extend to phones as well, since nearly every review that compares the iPhone to any other similar device notes that fit, finish and stability land solidly in the iPhone's corner even when the other device is given superior marks for features or 'openness.' Even Consumer Reports gave the iPhone 4 a superior rating by almost 5 points over all other smart phones in July even as they refused to give it a 'Recommended' rating for the antenna issue.
Apple IS challenging the 'real' smartphone market and is forcing the competition to adapt or get left behind. Nokia and RIM rested on their laurels too long, not believing that the iPhone could do half of what Apple claimed for it. Now they're having to scramble just to keep up.

I will argue that except for you and a very few other people, it seems the majority of technicians found Windows Mobile to be buggy at best and very difficult to use for any kind of generalized use--as long as they only used a single application for a given device, they worked fairly well, but they couldn't be used as a POS device, then an inventory counter, then an stocking tool and back to a POS without having issues that tended to slow productivity even compared to paper and pencil.

the two largest telecom providers in Canada sell thousands of WinMobile and Palm devices each and every year to enterprises across teh country that DEMAND such systems over an above all other offerings. They are VERY popular for POS and asset management operations that iPhone can't even BEGIN to manage, iPhone doesn't even offer teh capability beyond a crappy little imager system. An iPhone imager is NOT abar code scanner, not even close, and therefore absolutely userless in every way when it comes to POS and asset management systems.

Secondly, IT Staff have little to no input when it comes to said companies choosing devices for their carpet to concrete workforce. These needs are put forth by RPF;s that have stringent requirements, whene iPhone is often instantly disqualified right from teh get go, poor security, encryption, limited interface and radio options, NO laser approval at all, harder to integrate, no removable/rehcargable battery, not isafe certification and so on and so on. Apple is not even a consideration, their choices are primarilyy between Palm or WinMobile 6.5, FACT.

"Even Apple quit using WinMob devices as POS tools as soon as they got iOS to the point where the iPod touch could run powerful enough software for the purpose."

Maybe you need to study lasers, different bar codes and teh readers required to scan them, Apple doesn't even enter the playing field with their PDF imager. (no, don't bother going on about PDF files types, that's not the same thing either, do some homework on PDF barcodes instead.)

Again you continue to prattle on demonstrating your complete lack of understanding of market shares, new devices and hwo market share evens out. I won't even bother if you just parrot without recognizing you have missed the entire point being made.

First off, I find it difficult to believe any employer in Canada is giving iPhones away for free to their employees"

Then be baffled. It's again a simple fact. I've been given one, it sat in my drawer for thre emonths until I gave it back because I couldn't use it for anything I need to do that I can with WinMobile in a Motorla/Symbol system. It doesn't synch with Symbol's secure access points due to a lack of encryption standards, can't scana real barcode, doesn't interface with the three most popular POS systems on the planet etc. I doubt you, as with many people, don't even have a CLUE what POS and suply chain management actually entails, ESPECIALLY to the people who manage it, what software and device requriements are needed.

I don't give a crap who agrees with me or not, i don't care if someone in the seat beside me disagrees. Fact is, the device manufacturers that cater to such markets don't even OFFER iPhones as an option, iOS is simply not available with such devices.

People use the terms 'enterprise' and 'business use' far too lightly these days. Anyone who wears a polo shirt and dockers to work thinks he's an enterprise worker. Checking email and using a basic CRM app is not exactly something taht requires a lot of cpability.

IT staff have little to no impact on the enterprise market at all actually, that's more toward the small and sometimes medium size business where one or two IT guys seem to run the show. I work with companis with teams of c-level staff and not one that I've seen can or will use an iPhone for their business needs, perhaps for personal use but that's about it. You simply CANNOT make a case for a device that doesn't meet their most basic needs, no matter how many stats you throw out, if it doesn't meet their minimal requirements, they cannot use it, will not consider it and you will lose all future opportunities to bid.

That assumes a static market base where the total number of buyers doesn't change.
Not at all, it is the most basic math there is. PERCENT, means per one hundred. Whether there is 5 or 5 million, 20% is STILL 20%.

My point is, when a new device manufacturer offers a product the PERCENTAGE or market share others have MUST reduce if the new device sells ANY units at all. You can't have one company retain 40% another retain 60% and a new manufacturer gain 20%, that would equal 120%. It is IMPOSSIBLE, market "SHARE" is just that. If I sell 10 devices this year and own 100% of sales, YOu introduce a device and sell three of them, YOU now have a 30% market share and mine has fallen to 70%, that doesn't mean my device is no longer being used or that I have to worrk about going out of business, no matter how excited gaining market share gets you.

Nokia's total sales numbers hardly changed yet the market share plummeted

Uh, yeah. Still don't get it do you? To go back to simpler terms again, I am STILL sellign 10 devices, you have sold three. Yet my market share has dropped. So if I am sellign just as many devices this year as I did last year, why would I be bothered by competition? When you sell 8 devices and I sell 2, there's reason for concern but that is SO FAR from being teh reality here that it isn't worth debating. You seem to be completely clueless when it comes to marketing, COMPLETELY clueless with regards to the most basic principals. You still prattle on as if you have a point though, which you do not as you clearly don't even understand what you are debating.

Apple's customer satisfaction ratings across the board for hardware and service have maintained a 10-20% lead over all of their competitors for years and has become the world's #3 computer seller in total numbers sold... blah blah blah, I haven't said otherwise. You are going on about computer quality, I have no disagreed and I have used a Mac as it served my needs better too. I have not questioned Apple's MAC computer quality.

Where you are wrong is that reliability does NOT relate to phones as well. I know the factories in China that make their components, they are NOT build from quality parts as Mac computers are.

iPods offer the lowest music quality available today, many people love them becuase they have no idea what else they coould have or have no real understanding of sound and music reproduction. iPods dummed down music listeners to the point that most can't tell the difference between high bitrate audio and a 128kbps MP3. FAR better devices are available to those who actually listen to music. Don't bother, I promise you that there's NOTHING you can teach me about audio or player quality.

As for iPhone quality, if it hasn't already broken most people will say it is excellent quality whether it is or not. Again, this is pure marketing at work, making people BELIEVE that their product is a quality product. You need to study sampling.

Apple IS challenging the 'real' smartphone market
No, Apple is changing the CONSUMER smartphone market. The Enterprise Digital Assistant (EDA) market doesn't even include i{Phone as a possibility.

Common requirements that are requested for "REAL" smartphones (EDA's):
-access to critical enterprise-class applications they need to complete any job (iPhone=fail)
-MINIMUM IP-54 sealing, IP-64 preferred (iPhone=fail)
-Four foot drops to concrete (iPhone = fail)
-A wide range of operating temperatures, freezer to heater (iPhone=fail)
-Minimum of RS309 and RS409 scanner (iPhone=fail)
-high-performance scanning and accurate reading of both poorly printed and damaged bar codes (iPhone = fail)
-Switchable 3G networking,flexibly to both GSM and CDMA networks (okay Apple is trying there but not even close to being competitive to existing EDA's)
-Rechargable battery and higher capacity battery options(iPhone=fail)
-Multiple battery charger (iPhone=fail)
-analogue resistive touch interface for greater input accurcy (iPhone = fail)
-Dual microphone support with noise cancellation (iPhone = fail)
-Meet or exceee MIL-STD 810G specifications (iPhone=fail)
- Advanced Data capture (iPhone=fail)
-Enterprise Security EAP-TLS;TTLS (CHAP, MS-CHAP, MS-CHAPv2, PAP or MD5); PEAP (TLS, MSCHAPv2, EAP-GTC); LEAP,EAP-FAST (TLS, MS-CHAPv2, EAP-GTC) Again (iPhone = fail)

Don't begin to tell me what entreprise devices need, I've waded through the pages of requirements.

Now they're having to scramble just to keep up.

No, they are still dominating market share. Apple is trying to keep up, match then surpass the others. If others don't do somethign new and exciting, they will lose market share over time...again that is 'IF'....

Once they make a change and follow a trend, Apple lovers will simply say they are being copied, as always, just as Apple has copied everyone else for years now.

Now a debate about F15 avionics? It's all yours, not my field.

Without prejudice of any offense:
As a private consultant to small businesses, you simply don't have the exposure required to make such firm assertions on a subject you clearly have limited knowledge of.

"An iPhone imager is NOT abar code scanner, not even close, and therefore absolutely userless in every way when it comes to POS and asset management systems."
Interesting that you should say that since plug-in barcode scanners have been available for the iPhone practically from the first version and Apple is using them as POS and asset management tools in every single Apple Store around the world, not counting any other companies using them for similar purposes.

"Maybe you need to study lasers, different bar codes and teh readers required to scan them, Apple doesn't even enter the playing field with their PDF imager. (no, don't bother going on about PDF files types, that's not the same thing either, do some homework on PDF barcodes instead.)"
Invalid -- read my response above.

" I doubt you, as with many people, don't even have a CLUE what POS and suply chain management actually entails, ESPECIALLY to the people who manage it, what software and device requriements are needed."
Better than you think, since I used to be a purchasing agent for a factory and had to stay on top of inventory management for both production and maintenance. I received a 25% raise after only one year on the job because of how much money I saved the company compared to my predecessor.

"Fact is, the device manufacturers that cater to such markets don't even OFFER iPhones as an option, iOS is simply not available with such devices.
Are you absolutely certain of that fact? What of the doctors using iPhones with plug-in housings that read patients' vital stats wirelessly? What of lawyers using iPhones and iPads to carry and present their portfolios? What of salespeople using them to make presentations and close the sale? What of auto dealers using them to negotiate, document and close the sale to customers (Mercedes Benz and others)? What doesn't have the capabilities?

"IT staff have little to no impact on the enterprise market at all actually, that's more toward the small and sometimes medium size business where one or two IT guys seem to run the show."
You've GOT to be kidding! IT is the single largest and most expensive liability any corporation can have. They may not be the biggest in manpower as such, but an international company needs so many different IT branches over and above hardware maintenance and desktop repair it's silly! When you also figure that such companies can have hundreds of offices and each one needs at least some level of on-site IT, not counting coders and administrators it's obvious you really don't understand the corporate world.

"If I sell 10 devices this year and own 100% of sales, YOu introduce a device and sell three of them, YOU now have a 30% market share and mine has fallen to 70%"
Wrong! If you sell 10 devices and hold 100% of the market, then I come along and sell 3 similar devices while you still sell 10 you hold 77% of the market and I hold 23%--the market itself has grown by 30%. Just because I sold three doesn't mean you didn't sell your ten.

"So if I am sellign just as many devices this year as I did last year, why would I be bothered by competition?"
You just said what I did. Why is Nokia bothered by competition? Why? Because they're not growing with the market; they're standing still. That's almost suicide in todays' marketplace.

"You are going on about computer quality, I have no disagreed...,"
No? How about, "Apple still doesn't even come close to challenging the real smartphone makers," and "I ... don't buy into releasing low quality featureless products at a premium price." I'd say you've disagreed more than once just in this series of comments.

"As for iPhone quality, if it hasn't already broken most people will say it is excellent quality whether it is or not. Again, this is pure marketing at work, making people BELIEVE that their product is a quality product. You need to study sampling."
That 80% customer satisfaction rating includes iPhones, by the way--still more than 20% better than almost every other brand.

* "-high-performance scanning and accurate reading of both poorly printed and damaged bar codes (iPhone = fail)"
You lack access to available hardware that gives the iPhone that capability.

* "-analogue resistive touch interface for greater input accurcy (iPhone = fail)"
The iPhone's digital touch interface has been demonstrated more sensitive and more accurate than any competing system. An article proving this was posted over a year ago by TechRepublic.

"Don't begin to tell me what entreprise devices need, I've waded through the pages of requirements.
Meanwhile, international banks and other major corporations around the world are testing and adopting the iPhone and the iPad for in-house use. Looks like you don't know everything about enterprise needs.

"Apple is trying to keep up,..."
Better look again. Whether it's RIM, Nokia or one of the Android models, all of them are producing at least a few all-screen models that were unheard of before the iPhone--and so far the iPhone is the most reliable and easiest to use of all of them.

"As a private consultant to small businesses, you simply don't have the exposure required to make such firm assertions on a subject you clearly have limited knowledge of."
Perhaps, but I have direct access to the inner workings of one of the largest banks in the world. I think I have a much broader view of the enterprise than you, localized in your remote province. I have no argument with where you live--one of my best friends lives and works for a major corporation there--but your own words prove that your knowledge of international enterprise operations is limited.

"Now a debate about F15 avionics? It's all yours, not my field. Trying to distract me? Show me where I mentioned anything about F-15s in this thread. I at least quote you.

I just spent ages replying to all of your mindless drivel here proving all of your assertions the result of bad comprehension or just pure BS, it posted but disappeared. Maybe it was misposted in the thread. I don't care. you're just not worth the time or effort as you are blind to reality and have your mind made up, no matter if it is wrong.

In short:

iPhones DO NOT have a laser and cannot scan bar codes on their own. ANY handheld with USB can operate a scanner. Again do your homework.

A purchasing agent for a factory with inventory management experience. Not qualified to speak on a global marketplace for high end mobile EDA's.

Yes I am absolutely certain that the people that cater to those markets do NOT offerer iOS as an option, 100% certain. I provided links to all their websites and devices pages in my lost reply but you can Google it yourself. Palm and WinMobile 6.5, offered by those that iPhone doesn't even begin to compete with, Symbol/Motorola (mobile enterprise device division), Intermec, Janam, Honeywell (also HHP or HandHeld products)for example. Look them up, their devices STOMP on consumer "smart phones" and offer mainly WinMobile, with Symbol and Janam still moving a lot of Palm devices. No iPhones, NO androids, NO iPads, NO cheapo retail store products.

I said IT staff have little to no input on the enterprise device decisions for their company, as I know they don't. I've closed million dollar deals with company's without the IT department even expecting the devices when they turned up.

Your reply was some crap about IT departments being all over the world, how important IT departments are to corporations etc. Babble that has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING I said, not even CLOSE to what I was saying.

I then spoke specifically about Apple computers being quality products compared to cheap iPhones and you replied by quoting me talking about iPhones and iPads. I know the manufacturer of the iPhone and iPad components, they are a cheap Chinese mfr that even small electronics builders don't deal with unless they have to.

Man you can't be that dense, you must just trolling and looking stupid in the process.

I don't lack access to a scanner, OTHER DEVICES HAVE ONE BUILT IN, making them far more useful as mobile computers for those involved with asset and supply chain management. How many iPhones will you sell with a tethered Metrologic Voyager on it, when I turn up with a rigged device, a spare battery and a built-in scanner? Answer 0

The IR touch used by Apple is hideous, They don't offer a stylus because they CAN'T. Thus more user error due to a small on screen keyboard when compared to handwriting and drawing recognition of a stylus device with pint point accuracy. Apple bought out an old, bankrupt IR screen builder. That company failed to keep up with market demand for accuracy in touch, which is dominated by ELO/Tyco. They added ANOTHER company's multitouch chip set. It creates a fun user experience but is NOT accurate for data input. In fact, for numerical accuracy other devices offer scanners that will automatically enter bar codes so there is NO user error. I'd LOVE to go toe to toe with you in the CEO's office. "Sir, what vulpine is about to show you is exactly what a device can't do for your enterprise and why Symbol invented the ES4000, which I will show you afterward."

You'd be one el broko B2B rep trying to push iToys to them.(especially when you argue points they never raised to begin with! LOL )

Apple IS trying to catch up, we were discussing market share, which is STILL dominated by Rim, Symbian, Android. THEY are not playing catch up to anyone. That may follow a market trend in offering a touch device, but Apple has been buying their technology and following others all along too.

You then agree that you don't have as much market exposure and yet try to qualify yourself by saying you've worked for a bank and that BC is a remote province, illustrating not only your lack of qualification but your lack of geographical knowledge too. You must make your fellowman so proud of the US educational system.

BC, Vancouver on it's own, Canada's largest and most diversified port city, does more than C$75 billion in trade with over 130 different economies annually. Port activities generate $10.5 billion in gross domestic product and $22 billion in economic output. Vancouver is also the headquarters of forest product and mining companies. In recent years, Vancouver has become an increasingly important centre for software development, biotechnology and a vibrant film industry.

Living in Vancouver guarantees I have a greater exposure to world markets that you could ever begin to muster living in Maryland. Of course you don't even realize that you rely on BC and Canada to survive each day. I've done business with electronics manufacturers in Maryland, they don't have access to the product range or pricing that we do in Vancouver, thus rely on us to import for their manufacturing needs.

"Now a debate about F15 avionics? It's all yours, not my field. Trying to distract me? Show me where I mentioned anything about F-15s in this thread. I at least quote you.

No it's not a debate about avionics, LEARN TO READ ALREADY! I said I WOULDN'T debate avionics as you claim it is your field of experience.
I quote from your profile: "I joined the Air Force, becoming one of the first enlistees to be trained exclusively for the avionics of the F-15 as it was coming into the inventory. I did well enough at my job to be 'invited' to become a trainer for the F-15/F-16 avionics systems."

As I know little about avionics, I won't try to lecture you on such. As you clearly know very little about mobile enterprise computing, you shouldn't try to debate it with those who live it either.

All you do is make crap up, claim I say what I didn't and then argue against your imaginary posts.

EDIT: Great, now I find it! I had two tabs open and replied under my own post.

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=339715&messageID=3403415&tag=content;leftCol

Same thing, either way, you are wrong and out of your depth anyway. Like i said, no big deal I wouldn't tell you about F-15 Avionics as it is your professed area of experience, not mine, enterprise devices are an area I have plenty of experience with, I was selling smart phones to businesses worldwide before most people knew what they were.

"I know the manufacturer of the iPhone and iPad components, they are a cheap Chinese mfr that even small electronics builders don't deal with unless they have to."
Very interesting since this same manufacturer is the same one that assembles Apple's desktops as well as nearly every other computer brand sold in America--FOXCONN.

"The IR touch used by Apple is hideous, They don't offer a stylus because they CAN'T."
What IR touch? Apple's touch is capacitive, not infrared and third-party styluses are out that are perfectly functional on the iPhone and iPad.

"Apple IS trying to catch up, we were discussing market share, which is STILL dominated by Rim, Symbian, Android. THEY are not playing catch up to anyone."
No, I said Apple is not trying to play catch up on technology, that other brands are scrambling to keep up with Apple in that manner.
When discussing market share, they're scrambling like mad to keep Apple and the Android consortium from passing them.

"Now a debate about F15 avionics? It's all yours, not my field. Trying to distract me? Show me where I mentioned anything about F-15s in this thread. I at least quote you."
"No it's not a debate about avionics, LEARN TO READ ALREADY! I said I WOULDN'T debate avionics as you claim it is your field of experience.
I quote from your profile: "I joined the Air Force, becoming one of the first enlistees to be trained exclusively for the avionics of the F-15 as it was coming into the inventory. I did well enough at my job to be 'invited' to become a trainer for the F-15/F-16 avionics systems."
Purely a straw man argument, since I didn't bring the subject up in this conversation, you did. But since you do bring it up, for the US military to ask you to become an instructor, you have to be superior at your job to the point where they want you to teach how you're able to do that job so well. I'm sure the Canadian armed forces do much the same thing; they certainly wouldn't want an 'average joe' teaching advanced skills.

" I was selling smart phones to businesses worldwide before most people knew what they were."
Which is why I'm saying you're obsolete, since neither of the platforms you say are moving so well is holding up in the mobility market. Palm is almost dead--to the point that HP has bought them and apparently done almost nothing with it yet and Microsoft is replacing WinMob 6.5 with WinPhone7. If any of these devices are still moving (and yes, I did look at your links and the products listed) they are now primarily to replace inoperative devices where they already have an established base.

You want me to believe that the iPhone flat can't do certain mobility tasks simply because certain hardware isn't built in, but it's damnably easy to create a docking unit that will give the iPhone those capabilities for less than the price of one using an obsolete OS. As I said, such devices are already in use in stores and hospitals in the US as well as legal and corporate offices. The day of the single-purpose tech device is fading. Microsoft is realizing it, HP is realizing it and Apple is demonstrating it. I think it's time you began to realize it too.

The IR touch used by Apple is hideous, They don't offer a stylus because they CAN'T. Thus more user error due to a small on screen keyboard when compared to handwriting and drawing recognition of a stylus device with pint point accuracy. Apple bought out an old, bankrupt IR screen builder. That company failed to keep up with market demand for accuracy in touch, which is dominated by ELO/Tyco. They added ANOTHER company's multitouch chip set. It creates a fun user experience but is NOT accurate for data input. In fact, for numerical accuracy other devices offer scanners that will automatically enter bar codes so there is NO user error.

Once again, the iPhone, iPod Touch and iPad use a capacitive touch screen. Styli are available fron multiple sources.

As for bar code scanners, several apps that use the on-board camera to read bar codes with no other hardware required. One called ,AFAIR, Red Laser is used along with a custom app to interface with their backend database server at a couple of local shops.

One question out of a possibly morbid curiosity -- are you unable to spellcheck your posts?

but there IS an 'i' in their, not to be confused with 'there'.

Spelling means f-all, but proper use of a word is probably somewhat useful to people.

Can't you make up your mind can you! You can't possible own a "SmartPhone" You need money to own one, Anyone that take the time will realize that you're only on this blog to flame people, not to be to hard on you raym44 but it's you who can't understand the real facts about Apple & its hard working user base. Yes, I do have clients like you, WinDos lovers that spend all their time complaining about everything. I just charge more for my time. Have a good day

First off, in research you took what is called a "sample of convenience" which is generally considered the worst kind of sample next to a biased sample which, in some ways, your sample can fall into that category as well.
Why? Well, you polled family and, as family, it is reasonable to assume they support each others activities. For example, if the family really enjoys photos, they would all reinforce using the camera on their phones, etc. So, your sample fails...miserably.

Next, you make an assumption of intelligence based on device usage. If I take someone who has an IQ of 90 and teach them how to use every option on an iPhone and they, in turn, use every option, how does that change the fact their IQ is still 90? They don't suddenly gain 20 IQ points because they are using a simple device. So, your assumption of intelligence fails.

This leads to the third flaw. You generalize this to the ENTIRE population by saying that iPhone users are more intelligent because they use all the features of their phone. As noted, intelligence and feature usage do not correlate. So your hypothesis also fails.

In summary: failed sample, failed assumptions, failed hypothesis.

Oh, and I use every feature on my Android phone. Multiple e-mails, calendars, remote control of computers, eBooks, music, movies, photos, light word processing, games, news and RSS feed reading, messaging, shopping, managing stock portfolios, and yes...I backup all my data through Titanium backup...but everything is also synced with Google, so it doesn't matter if I switch phones.

I don't know if you've looked at the SMartPhone market share but iOS/Apple is not even a top 3 contender. You can "believe" what you wish, you can sample yoru family and friends but when it comes down to it, they sit behind Android, RIM and the monster Nokia (symbian) with a HUGE margin to make up before they'll even be in the running for top smartphone.

If the IPhone is being outsold in the marketplace then that's the end of the story isn't it?

The masses aren't buying it so they agree with you that the other options are better. So are the masses 'sheep' for buying the other options? No it seems they are only sheep if they join the majority in buying Apple products (which is not the case in your argument). If they join the majority in buying other devices they are not sheep.

All very difficult to stitch together as a coherent argument isn't it?

If the marketplace has spoken does anyone really need you kicking the loser (Apple) when they are down? How does that help anyone?

Jason gives his opinion, you disagree. You even claim to have hard facts to show that the majority of buyers agree with you. Point made. End of. How many times do you need to make the same point? And why would you bother? According to you the masses have spoken up in agreeing that the other options are better.

Do you really have so much free time that you can bang on year after year on every single post about the iPhone with the same boring stuff? You do know you hurt your argument by doing so don't you?

According to you Apple has lost so you should feel good that you got it right and a few smug "I told you so" posts could suffice. According to you, you won the argument. So keeping on fighting so hard looks bad. Winners don't give of the smell of desperation that lingers over your postings.

Anyway, something to think about next time the urge to type hits you. "Will I help my case by posting again?".

I do have the time to bang on about it, over and over again, just as everyone keeps banging on about iPhone. If it's so clear, then we would not read what we do here. The purpose of the discussion is to air views on the original article and discuss our feelings on it and the comments that follow.

If you already know what I am going to say and you don't want to read it, get your manual out and learn about clicking links. You'll find that it is actually a conscious action that you can gain control of yourself. Once you have mastered the technique of clicking links and forum surfing, you'll learn how to avoid reading what you don't want to read.

I have never said Apple LOST anything, you are free to provide links to where I have though, if you would like to quote me. (damn, MORE clicking!!!)

You only hurt your case when you repeat or defend fictional comments. Repeating facts is simply repeating facts, in order to put forth one's case. The most stable assertion is in the presentation of irrefutable facts when opposed to marketing BS and parroting beliefs. Supporting BS that doesn't stand up to any scrutiny is where you hurt your case.

Now, go look up that clicking thing and save yourself the trouble next time.

Unfortunately, you seem to believe that repeating your opinions ad nauseum somehow converts them into facts. You may believe that there are no Apple products that are superior to other products but that does not make that a fact. You appear believe that Apple's OS X is an inferior product to Microsoft's Windows 7. You never seem to get around to providing any evidence to back that opinion -- that you hold an opinion that the Microsoft GUI is superior to the Apple GUI does make it a fact.

Where is the quantifiable data to show that superiority? A post with items such as it takes 17% fewer mouse clicks to complete a common set of tasks using Windows 7 compared to OS X with a list of the tasks would be factual. A comparison of Windows, OS X and Linux under similar task loading would be factual showing which handle heavy loads better would be factual. A statement that you find Windows 7 to be prettier is not a fact, it's an opinion with no visible means of support.

The touch interface is growing, as evidenced by iOS, Android and even Palm's WebOS and RIM's new Blackberry devices. HP has been offering touch-screen computers for a few years now. The technology is changing to a new paradigm. Keep up or get left behind.

How ironic coming from you the KING of BS and misinformation. You're an idiot.

--and he's not willing to admit it. Why? Because his living depends on customers being dependent on his skills, and Android and iOS don't fall in his skill set. He's got to convince someone that he's right just to get new customers to replace the ones he's lost to his competition.

At least, that's the way I see it. When you're hyper-trained to one set of tools, finding out that your tools are obsolete makes you obsolete.

"Why? Because his living depends on customers being dependent on his skills, and Android and iOS don't fall in his skill set."

Wrong. I don't rely on mobile devices to make a living at all. Want Android or iOS? No problem I can get you whatever you need and it makes no difference to me at all. Have I lost devices to teh competition? Yes. Were they lost to iPhone competition? No, not once, I can get you any flavour you wish. Devices are lost to competitors who offer different devices, 99% of them are WinMbile 6.5 or Palm, BY CUSTOMER CHOICE.

"At least, that's the way I see it."
Well, then you see (guessed) it wrong and that's not my guess, it's a simple fact as I know it and don't presume it. You made a false assumption, end of.

When you're hyper-trained to one set of tools, finding out that your tools are obsolete makes you obsolete.

Very true but again it does not apply as you wish it too and is simply false as used in your last statement. I haev all the tools and avery big tool box, mobile sales are an almost invisible/irrelevant portion of my income. I would rather not sell a single mobile device again but I must, as I work to help new and old businesses develop, with a focus on their productivity and efficiency, and I am called upon by many for mobile solutions as part of that service.
Thankfully, they never want iPhones in the mix though.

Is it because you're wrong and you know it?

"Devices are lost to competitors who offer different devices, 99% of them are WinMbile 6.5 or Palm, BY CUSTOMER CHOICE."
Then why, if 99% are WinMob and Palm, has WinMob's global market share fallen to less than 6%? Why has Palm's market fallen so low it doesn't even register on the market any more? 5 years ago you might have been right; 10 years ago you almost certainly were right; today? I don't think so. Not according to any report I've ever read in the last three years no matter how anti-Apple it was.

"... mobile sales are an almost invisible/irrelevant portion of my income."
Then how can you possibly speak with any authority on an issue you have no contact with. What I see is that your customer base is so narrow that new technologies are an afterthought, not a primary consideration. Your own words over numbers and platforms merely emphasizes my point that you're an obsolete consultant working with obsolete technologies. Your customers need to start moving into the modern world if they want to maintain any kind of standing in their market.

Then once you get back on track and recognize that I am speaking of business devices, you will then find that business devices include WinMobile 6.5 or Palm. No Symbian, No Android, No iOS.

As described in my post above, consumer devices don't even begin to enter the EDA (enterprise market).

... that statement is totally false.

I might also note that a large percentage of the Fortune 500 are already testing and using iOS devices in their companies. Even some of the biggest banks in the world are using iOS devices and supporting customers' iOS devices, though I will agree that Android, as yet, is not included in these uses.

You must mean a Canadian, yeah we all know each other, even though we have 10% of your population, sprawled over a larger land mass.

a ssomeone who has sold such devices for nearly a decade now, I've seen more TESTS than you can imagine, it does not equate to adoption.

Why attend to particulars when you can take vulpine on by means of his self-satisfied and eternally vulnerable "falsity"?

Unless you have no grasp of that, yourself; depending as you do on the J. Walter Thompson agency adage of marketing to emotion, rather than to that infinitely narrow slice of humanity who respond to logic.

I don't think either of you do.

Is so blatant I wonder if he actually believes it himself or is just trying to look stupid trolling.

Your sampling is funny. Go do some more on the Apple App Store and see the Games:Productive apps ratio. Which smartphone doesn't have Mail, Photos, cameras & interfacing with their computers?

And why the large iPhone contacts backup? It's a hazardous job to transfer iPhone contacts that's why.

First, I completely agree the iPhone should be in the top 5, but not #1 for the very reason you listed...the antenna issue is inexcusable and should have been fixed by Apple (and no, a free bumper case is NOT a fix).

However, I disagree about the AT&T comment. This is an article about the top smartphones, not about the top service carriers. So even if AT&T sucks donkey balls, that isn't what the article is about.