Discussion on:

Are CCIEs and other Cisco certifications as valuable as they used to be?

I have enjoyed this post immensely and I have the following comments.

I have been in I.T in Nigeria for quite a while now and I have only managed to spot One (1) CCIE and guess what? His is holding a political position in my home state!!!!

Certifications generally are a good tool but like most good tools are often abused. It took my about 2 years of reading and practise to gain my MCSE back in 2007, but I know of boot camps in the U.S and other parts of the world offering MCSE (Security) status guaranteed in as little as 15days. I am sure there are similar arrangements for the CCIE status. What this suggests is that this certs are available for the man ready to pay top dollars.

In most of Africa, the curriculum for Computer Science CS degrees is really weak. I have had to train CS graduates who graduated magna *** laude and even summa *** laude (while I was a trainer at Aptech)who knew nothing of say TCP/IP and OSI reference model. For such graduates, the only way to go will be to get certified, right? Maybe...

In Nigeria specifically, the typical description for an average I.T job reads as follows:

1. CS graduate (magna cumm laude)

2. Less than 25 years of age and

3. Certs as an added advantage

Note that the first 2 are requirements and the certs are only addition qualifications that may enable you outshine anyone that stopped only at number 2.

As a trainer, I noticed that some of the brightest students I trained where not CS graduates at all. So if the the main requirement for any I.T job is a CS degree (in Nigeria unfortunately it still is) the CCIE, MCSE, CCVP etc may not be of much help if you are not a CS graduate (I happen not to be one).

Immigrating??? The politics of it is killing!!! I got a job for an I.T group in Canada and at the phone interview stage, aside commending my skill set, the next and most important question I was asked is... 'Do you have a work permit?'Of course I answered in the negative and that was the end of the interview!!!!

I currently work where most of the 'exotic staff' ( I wont call a good number of them expatriates of experts for that matter)work on the possession of business visas and are treated like royalty even with apparently dubious qualifications. I even have one that claims he came from 'Microsoft India'??? lol

As long as these requirements remain in place in most of Africa and the immigration issues remain in the west, I.T certifications I dare say is not for the African to get a job

I personally spent the past three years traveling to and communicating with CCIEs, Network Academy and Cisco Channel partners in these regions. It is my experience that there is a demand but in most cases once a gifted network engineer achieves CCIE certification they exit the country. There are places in Africa cash heavy and technology light so good engineers have been getting fair wages to move within the continent. Yesterday I saw my first req. for 2011 from South Africa. While hiring was sporadic in Angola, Kenya and Nigeria for me personally, I did see the activity going on thru other sources.
If I could get more CCIEs visas I would believe me because I have met some very gifted technically astute IEs there.

If these graduates don't know anything of the OSI or the various networking protocols, then what are they learning in order to get their CS degree? Is it strictly a programming discipline without networking pieces to it?

The OSI model is in another degree.(BEng Electronic and Telecomms), That is the case in Zambia where i live.

Here the requirements are CS Degree OR BEng Electrical/Electronics/Telecomms. These are all considered equivalent when recruiting IT for IT positions. CS guys consider Networking as a job for elecrical guys.

Hi All,

I've been lurking these blogs for several years now, finally deciding to make a post. Quite an interesting discussion.

@darbyweaver

Hi Darby, I've tried PM'ing you, but for some reason my PM function is not available or functional (or I'm just slow, that's more likely). At any rate, my concern regards you mentioning having taken several stabs at the CCIE lab. Right now I'm still a CCNP candidate, but I'm on track to becoming a CCIE R/S candidate mid-year. Now Looking at this at face value, it looks to me like your company clearly values you as you're obviously quite busy. If you're even half as busy at home as you are at work, I can imagine squeezing time in to practice for CCIE lab is good near impossible. My main question is if time constraints is what's mostly contributing to the repeated lab attempts?

I only ask because I recently made a post in a Cisco Learning Network forum (https://learningnetwork.cisco.com/message/118784#118784) regarding my CCIE aspirations. Not to rehash it all, but to summarize asserted that starting in July, I'll be afforded the opportunity to take 6-12 months off from working and have a $10k+ training budget to work with toward my CCIE. I don't look at it as an opportunity to sink money into bootcamps (I don't feel I have enough experience for bootcamps to be of any true value to me), but I'll be funding my own training for CCIE R/S (building my own lab, etc). Now of course it's possible that persons from INE, IPexpert, et al could be selling me "pipe dreams", but up until now I've had a pretty realistic expectation that my invested time and effort would help me pass CCIE lab on my first attempt. Do you feel that if you had a similar opportunity that you'd be able to pass your CCIE lab next time around or do you think I'm being unrealistic here? Thanks for your input and please feel free to PM here (or on CLN) if you'd prefer to discuss this in private. Thanks!

PS- Anyone can chime in here or on the CLN site if you have comments or concerns as well; thanks!

@layer4down,

You bring up a good question. It's true. I do to spend the majority of my time at work and working for the company - whichever company it may be. The fact is I have to pay my bills first and foremost, while the certifications come next.

If you'll also notice, I'm forced to maintain a variety of skillsets, some of which have nothing to do with the CCIE RS for example and do tend to draw away time and energy.

Yes, I think if time were allotted away from the job (100%) and even without budget (in my case I own mostly everything I could ask for in terms of equipment and materials) I could probably take out the CCIE RS once and for all and make it look pretty easy in 6 months, if that.

I've seen/read of many over the years by now who have done just that. I've also read about or even know a few CCIEs who tend to work for partners more often that not that have done something similar on-the-job in a similar timeframe - recall they are working the materials, have lab access (not building their own lab usually - a little extra stress is endured building/paying for one's own lab gear that has to be accounted for), and these guys have passed the lab usually in 1-3 attempts or so.

Yes - If the time and materials are available and there are little to no distractions then I'd guage 6 months as a fair time frame for a person with about a CCNP to be able to overcome the CCIE Lab or at least be skilled enough to take it and reasonably expect to pass, given the current materials that are on the market today and access to the various blogs/forums/lists for any issues that one may still find elusive.

I've backtracked my own studies. I spent last year working pretty hard on say switching. Right now I study every available hour on OSPF, etc.

I don't mean just read it, think I have it, and maybe do it, and walk away thinking I have it and still coming up shy of being the expert.

I mean read it, watch it, and do it. Then repeat the process like groundhog day again... and again... If I can sit and tell someone what every bit of output is as I'm typing and if I can explain the entire process of the bulding the neighbor relationship and then forming the adjacency and using the language down to the database descriptors, etc. Then I might be able to understand that I'm actually getting close to the CCIE level prep required for the lab.

That's how I'm studying this year for it. I was hoping a week per topic. That has now turned into a month. And I can can see 2 months on the horizon just for OSPF alone.

However, I expect to be explaining OSPF every chance I get to everyone I can after that to keep it sharp as I go back over RIP/EIGRP to the same degree of explicit understanding. I don't want to have to rely on a single packet going by that I am assuming is doing something I may not understand. I've done this in the past and it has returned to bite me. Everything must be fully understood, else wasting trips to classes and to the CCIE Lab at places like RTP are wasted trips.

I've learned a lot in a lot of classes - no doubt. I've not learned the really nitty-gritty of what needs to be totally understood however. Some things are not taught in the CCIE classes - let's face it - 40-80 hours in a week is a lot of time, but it is severely limited.

There's not a single topic in the lab that can be mastered in 40-80 hours from A-Z and labbed up accordingly for the newbie (CCNP or so) and not one topic is given that much time for obvious reasons.

I might argue for Multicast or RIP and some one-off topics. However, I've found that even these little topics after studying continuously we sometimes have the tendency to get bored and satisfy ourselves with the stuff we do know. Fair enough. It happens. We are human.

Things like the boredom and some of the posts I read where people have said the exam seems easy when taken can easily dull one's senses... and worse people who pass somehow think you know more than you know and congratulate you on you passing attempt, when in fact, you are just going on to the lab to help make the statistics a little more impressive and hopefully enjoy a delighful mean with the proctors.

So that kind of obligatory congratulations that is usually unqualified makes one feel a little strange when the lab itself is not passed time after time.

If you can get away and study for at least 6 months and not lose sight of the target, that would be excellent. I'd have that lab paid for, cabled, and ready to go before day one started. I'd also have my materials in my hand and a firm plan on what I am going to cover with the flexibility and common sense to realize that I might need to spend more time on one or more areas than originally budgeted for.

Finally, I would not let "covering a topic" overcome mastering a topic. If you went 6 months and for some reason only mastered switching, then you've got one amazing bullet covered and it may well take 6 months to fully understand a complex topic like switching. Don't be mad at yourself it really takes most people years to comprehend everything encompassed by the Cisco 3560 Switching manual. I promise it probably took longer than 6 months for the authors to write it the first time and it is sorely condensed by any measure of the word.

So be wise and realize that some of these topics are not "time-bound" and some need time to fully appreciate what is happening. Alternatively, just debug the hell out of each one and get to the point you can understand the entire conversation from the start to the finish. It sounds like I'm joking, but I a smile didn't even cross my face. Nope. I'm serious.

Hope this kind of helps out a bit. Remember everyone takes a little different approach to the CCIE Lab. Some get there quicker than others for a variety of reasons.

Darby Weaver

Later

I can't tell you how many times where I've read these same dicussion topics. And 99% of the time it is an IT person from another country will ask the question whether they should get "this or that" certification; Usually it's either a Cisco cert or a database cert (Oracle, SQL Server, etc). Then, almost always the next question is, "is it worth getting the cert?". And usually when these persons start describing their IT background, it's usually that they have no actual working IT networking experience; it's all academic. And if they do have experience, it's in the non-IT areas (business/managerial, supervisory). The next question asked is can they succeed at getting an IT job in the USA with their cetfification.

I'v worked with many personns who have come newly into the IT field. You can tell that they have little to no experience. And many of them have constally talked about gettting the CCNA and then the CCIE. Yet, to have worked with them you can see that they have yet to grasp and understand the fundamentals of networking. But, they are fully confident in passing the cert exams and getting the cert, which many of them do. Many employers ask for Cisco certifications. I'm guessing they "feel" that if someone has them, then they are "IT-adept". Just because someone has a CCNA or a CCIE doesn't mean they understand networking. And just because an employer may use Cisco networking hardware, doesn't eman that ALL of their networing hardware is from Cisco. Lest we not forget about networking in the operating systems of Linux, Unix, Solaris, Windows, etc.

HR...does HR really understand? I'm not goign to go into that, because it's just reinventing the wheel and I can't think of anything fresh to say.

Do I think the Cisco certifications are as caluble tosay as they were in the past? No, I don't think so. Because it's so "easy" for anyone to without the foundation to get one and get a job.

1. Us guys who the the job and are hiring are not hiring specifically for certifciations, however we are hiring for people who can do the job, 15+ years of paper tigers has made seasoned professionals very watchful for those who are not what they profess to be.

2. I look for certs as a basis for skills and knowledge... then comes the interview. It's always interesting. Always.

In Australia it is TAFE ? (Technical and Further Education) that provides IT Training and CISCO Accreditation in what I am increasing finding is a static IT Job market. I.e. Jobs available only go to those already employed in the industry. Offerings of traineeships are rare so this means you have to skill up on your own time and dime so now after reading this article I worry if I enrol in CCNA 1& 2 I will have devoted nine months and $4,000.00 AU minimum to something is becoming devalued? I maybe better off relying on the competition of a Bachelor of Applied Computing with an advanced diploma in networking security this semester so as to enter the job market rather than padding my resume with CISCO Accreditation. So I guess what I really am asking is what are the key differences of CISCO Accreditation over a Diploma of Networking, Why should I want it apart from international recognition? Diploma Networking includes at a basic minimum:
Install and manage network protocols
Install network hardware to a network
Install and configure a network
Provide basic system administration
Provide network systems administration
Configure and administer a network
Manage project quality
Produce network architecture design
Prepare disaster recovery and contingency
Translate business needs into technical
Install and manage complex networks
Build an internet infrastructure
Develop system infrastructure design plan
Determine best-fit topology for a local
Identify best-fit topology for a wide area
Gather data to identify business
Evaluate RFID systems
Design an RFID implementation
Build a security shield for a network
Build a high performance security perimeter
Build a highly secure firewall
Install and configure a single-segment local
Install high-end switches in multi-switched
Install and configure router
Implement secure encryption technologies
Install and maintain valid authentication
Develop, implement and evaluate system
Develop, implement and evaluate an incident
Implement and evaluate systems for
Configure an internet gateway
Design and implement an enterprise VoIP

I also live in Australia and agree that jobs in IT are pretty easy to get if you are already employed in the field, but it is very hard to get a start. I used to work in a small computer repair shop, and when we advertised for two trainee positions we had over a hundred applicants. This was in a fairly small city in Tasmania (the smallest state). This is for bugger all pay while you do the traineeship, and then for minimum wage once you've done the training. People were falling over themselves to apply, because there are so few jobs vacancies offering a start.

I would also add that the situation in Australia is similar to what abasi_obori described - certs can help, but you have to have a degree first.

I just think things have matured from what they used to be. Back in the day a computer degree meant a lot. Now it is a minimum requirement to get an interview for most jobs, but doesn't have any particular meaning above that. Once yuo've got the interview, it's your experience, your personality and at a distant third your certs that will determine if you get the job or not.

Certs have similarly matured. Again, you used to be able to get a good job on the back of an MCSE. But there's a lifecycle certs have gone through that is basically described in the article. It used to be that a person would play with the technology and learn it well. Then a certification would come out, so they would take the test to get a piece of paper confirming their aptitude in that technology. At this point in the life cycle, pretty much everyone who has the cert is good at what they do, so the cert is well-respected. Because the cert is well-respected, people want to get it. At this point things change from "I'm good at the technology so I may as well get a certificate to prove it" to "I want the certification - what's the easiest way I can get it". At this stage people start memorising past exam answers, going to bootcamps etc and they learn exactly enough to pass the exam. Clearly they will know more than someone who hasn't done this research, but they are a long way off the knowledge and experience of the guy that got the cert earlier. Once a cert reaches this stage, it's starts to become less meaningful. Where as employers could just about hire someone on the strength of the cert back in the early stages of the life cycle, at this later stage it becomes more of a "nice to have" at this stage.

This is true of all certs, not just CCIE. It's also true of a university degree. There were a lot of people in my year that memorised the curriculum. They often got great results, but were near-unemployable. I used to watch some of them in the labs. They would do things like click "File - Save As - OK, then click OK again to confirm overwriting the file" instead of simply pressing ctrl+s.

Here's what I think this means for employees:
1) Get a relevent uni degree. Without it there are heaps of jobs you won't even be considered for.
2) Get knowledge and experience however you can, but be smart about it. Make sure it all looks good on a resume. For me, I spent a lot of time writing programs out-of-hours that helped with my old job. I also wrote their customer- and job-tracking software. These both look great on my resume because they show a) that I can write software b) that I am willing to do extra work c) that I spot improvements that can be made, and I make them happen.
3) I see certs as being very similar to point 2 above. They never hurt (unless you have far too many), but be smart about them. If you have a cert but there's nothing to show any experience with the technology on your resume, I will assume you went through a bootcamp to get the piece of paper. On the other hand if you have a cert, and have some work experience (even unpaid), or have a statement on your cover letter showing that you spent $3000 setting up a home lab and you've done x, y and z with your home lab (where x, y, and z are all relevant things that you don't have to do to get the cert) then that will show an interest and commitment to that area. I will be more likely to think you will have good skills and knowledge in this case.


My advice to suthross - if it's one or the other, get the diploma. Then spend a little time getting some experience. If you love networking, you will happily spend time out-of-hours doing work in this field. If you can't find any paid work, find a favourite charity or do some work for a friends business unpaid. It's a good way to get experience because you can make mistakes. People expect less if they aren't paying you, and charities and mates businesses probably don't have systems as critical as a business that will pay you a $70k salary.

I can see plenty of things you can do for free or very cheap. Install a really old PC with a Linux distro like ZeroShell (all the skills you learn will very closely transferable to enterprise gear), or implement one of the free VoIP softwares out there (many of them that make software for large businesses give away the software for up to five users). You can also pick up older gear really cheap on ebay, then play with it at home. I've bought a 24-port managed Cisco switch for $1.27! It's ridiculous! I can't buy a can of coke for that!

If you do some of the above and combine it with a cert of diploma, any decent employer will see that you are motivated, hard-working and genuinely love the area of networking. That will put you head and shoulders above most.

I think that last paragraph is the core problem with certs and the like - too many people that don't love the technology are getting them and believing that is a ticket to a high-paying job. With any IT job you have to be learning constantly, and to do that you've got to love it.

Thank you gechurch, I feel I am on the right track now as my home network laboratory has been growing with every piece of tech begged or borrowed I can lay my hands on. Bedroom looks like a switch room now and with so many pretty blinking lights, I didn?t have to decorate for xmus.
I have nearly finished my Bachelor of Applied Computing with one unit still to complete this semester which is the computing project, collaboration between the student and a real world organization designed to get at least some runs on the board experience wise. The website and content management system I am developing for the org I have nominated would cost at least 30k if contracted professionally. But at the moment is as you say build network systems for experimentation (I have been trialling SmoothWall, IPCop, Endian and Monowall but haven?t looked at ZeroShell yet.) Fix computers (This generates an enormous pile of parts that fills the lounge room) , tutor where you can and keep a rock solid academic CV going that shows commitment to personal development. The networking diploma is better for me at the moment as to overcome the regional tyranny of distance must do it all online as I can?t get to the centre for lab work. I think I will take the respectful path for CCNA 1 & 2 and get it because I want it not because I need it.

As already said Cisco's certification program is becoming like the "official" school for certain IT areas but this definition is it's problem, i mean that a certification is a start-up for a knowledge that you are maturing inside your jobplace and your daily activity instead is becoming more and more as a "i am an expert since i had my certification..." and that's just wrong.
It's almost 10 years i am working for a Telco and this year i should start my CCNP but this doesn't mean that i am not workin on what i will work AFTER my certification, it's added-value. The idea of being certified for having a job is good if applyed to ANY certification AND any experience, in fact in the END company want PROOF

I wish you all a good day

The Cisco certs are now becoming what Microsoft certs were a few years ago. A CCNP or CCIE was a very difficult certification that only a small percentage were able to master and obtain. But with the propagation of the "quick-study" and "guaranteed certification" classes and boot camps the ordinary person with minimal experience can now claim the title of CCIE.
Microsoft had the same issue with MCSE certs a while back. For years you couldn't swing a stick without hitting someone who had the cert but most just didn't have either the experience or the "knack" to troubleshoot network problems.
What I do see is is that with the exponential growth of the Internet there seems to be an easy way to cheat on these exams. One only has to do a simple search and find hundreds of brain dump sites that have the exact copy of the exams posted. Most of these sites are maintained and supported outside the United States (Russia, China, ...) but available to anyone. The temptation is there to circumvent the learning process and that leads to a devalued certification.
On the upside is that anyone seeking these professionals with certifications should easily find whether or not they are truly qualified for the position with just a few technical questions.

Brain dumps and methods of cheating the system happen and those who embark upon gaining the gold stars that way without the ability to pass an interview are smoked out all the time. I personally don?t think the certification is going the way of the MCSE yet though.

hmmm... salaries are higher where there is a shortage, and lower where there's a glut. Sounds like basic supply & demand. As a secondary issue, CCIE is like CISSP & many other higher level certs -- people without experience are jumping into the field & getting certified, drawn by high potential salaries, then are surprised that employers want experience too.

This is the same problem that cropped up years ago with the MCSE. That used to be a "respected" CERT. Then, the "bootcamps" came into vogue, promising 6-figure jobs after 5 day bootcamp (and paying the trainer thousands of dollars). We ended up with a ton of "paper MCSEs" who didn't know the difference between a port and a hole in the ground. With the Dot Com bust, jobs and salaries lagged.

Now, the CISCO bootcamps are lauded as the new "end all, be all". Same scenerio as above, a bunch of "paper Certified" folks with zero experience. The bootcamps are successful (for them) because they "teach the test", and game the system. The only one who win are the trainers: they get paid regardless. Whether you get the job or not.

People, you HAVE to have the experience to do the job. You have to pay your dues. I am embarassed to admit this, but I do not have a BS degree or any Certs. But I do have 15 years in IT, and have close to a 6 figure job. Started as a "break/fix" desktop tech, paid my dues at many low wage jobs, and worked my way up from there. There are many jobs that I will not get called for an interview because I don't have the "paper". When I do get called, I can answer pointed questions on real world situations. That is what employers really want. HR is who wants the paper.

I am currently working towards a few select CERTs, hopefully to insulate me in this uncertain economy. CERTs do have their place. As an addendum to your experience and knowledge, not in place of. Unless you have experience, stay away from the bootcamps. With no experience, stick with self-training, or Jr. College. Cheaper, and with JUCO, you could end up with an AS degree. Also, the longer you take to learn the material, the more you will retain.

They rake in exam fees and they churn out a bunch of drones who think everything at the end of a patch cable is "a Cisco" and who wonder why their CLI commands on a Procurve switch keep returning syntax errors...

I'm working on my CCNA just to get me past the HR filters and will rely on my years of ACTUAL WORK EXPERIENCE to land me the job.

Edit: By the way, your story sounds much like mine. I've payed my dues working a dead-end break/fix tech job for years. Even though I had a B.S. in CS, the job was all that I could get in the post Y2K economy. And it irks me to no end when a bunch of snot-nosed hacks off the street think that they can attend some bootcamp for a week and call themselves and Engineer. I'd like to interview one of those people...

1. Cisco does care...

2. HP... um... most Cisco certified guys at the CCNP or above level can handle an HP device as well or better (due to education with Cisco) as mostly any HP certified professional. Umm... wanna try me - you got my email.

3. Wait... I see you'd like to interview one of these people. I'm game if you are.

4. However, I'd like to flip the deck and return the favor and interview you. Can we use Eman or a public forum to "interview" each other? Fair is fair. You can decide the number of questions and technologies and we can let our audience decide... I've never heard of a tech duel but it sounds like fun.

No way. That radio announcer is sorely mistaken. Cisco's stock has tanked recently, but most likely that is due to a market correction based on earnings.

I have recently obtained my CCNA and have been beside myself with the lack of opportunity, and I believe ( for the most part anyway) that this is due to the economy.

Right now, companies are sitting on mounds of cash, and want to hire, but they are afraid of what the Obama administration is going to do next that will eventually cost them loads of cash and hurt their profits. Once Obama either gets replaced, or the companies see that he isn't going to continue to make poor economic decisions, they will break loose. But that could take several more years (although I dont think it will).

Companies need to be free to make thier own decisions, and either sink or swim based on those decisions. When government gets involved in business, we see job markets like the current one in the US.

It amazes me that their are so many intelligent people in the IT industry who cannot see this concept.

Anyway, job outlook based on Bureau of Labor, along with other reputable sources, liken the networking industry to that of health care with regards to demand, so hopefully it will pick up before the we go broke waiting for it.

Right now people and businesses in the U.S. are rather xenophobic, and rightly so. Take your Iranian in the U.S. on an H-1 visa. No experience, has the cert, but is from a country hostile to the U.S., "may" be of a religion hostile to the western way of life, and is looking for a job that has the capacity to cripple communications in this country.

Guess what? Those are the exact same things that could be said about the 9/11 terrorists. You want to hire a foreigner for router deployments, you'd better damn well examine their entire lives with a fine-tooth comb before you let them anywhere near an electronics closet.

And besides the security implications, I'd really wonder about the validity of a certification obtained in many areas overseas, where oversight of the exams has bneen lax in the past in some published incidents, and cheating rampant.

I agree with what most of you are saying. The 'paper' cert is losing its value. The question now is, what is it being used for? Once upon a time, it was the result of an IT professional spending years in their field and then obtaining the cert. However, that is no longer the case. Now, you take the boot camp and get the cert. In fact, today, that is the only way to get the entry level job. Does any else here remember that if you had a college degree, any college degree, you were guaranteed a job right out of college. No longer the case. In today's environment, the most successful engineer has both the cert and the experience. Getting the cert first, despite how one acheives it, shows that they have at least been exposed to most aspects of what they will face when they get out there. People are complaining that it is only experience that counts, but how do you get that experience today? You have to have the cert. The heady days of the 90's, the Wild West of IT is over. We are maturing as an industry and cutting our teeth in the most difficult economic time that any of us can remember, and we are succeeding and in some cases flourishing (depending, of course on geography and political situations). Get your certs, get your experience. You need both.

I just think that if a person can even earn the ccie, they should be put in a job. when you say job experience the question in my head is, "how can you get experience if no one ever hires you?" if a person can get a ccie straight out of college i commend them. that means they do know a pretty good level of knowledge about routing and switching. even if they haven't worked with the equipment yet. if they have passed the ccie, they HAVE worked with the equipment, and have the ability to become a great engineer. people don't want to hire newbies anymore. there are only so many experienced techs out there and it's time to make new tech's. does anyone out there understand what i am saying?

I tend to concur here. Where are the days of trusting one's abilities to obtain education. No one no matter who they are starts out seasoned. Seasoning takes getting hands on experience.I think that staying the course and finishing the certification should speak to dedication and ability to finish.

jasbo81,

that, i think is the main point. the guys whom are the gurus of now, were once just guys whom were highly interested in working with technology. companies allowed them to learn because no one else knew this stuff in the dinosaur days. now that these guys have a hang on things, there are newbies coming along wishing for opportunities but getting shot in the foot. this is a problem.

Cisco has become too... expensive, difficult, behind the times, etc.

I can now acquire equipment for 20-30% less with more power, flexibility, and availability. There is a backlash against Cisco for treating client like Sun has.

Companies like Juniper, Brocade, and Force networks are quickly replacing shops that were once Cisco.

So, the CCIE is not less valuable, but Cisco as a whole is beginning to slide.

Background checks are huge now given the data us IE's have access to.

Experience, soft skill, and networking is what gets you an IE position, not random thumb twittling on dimwitter, facecrack, or linkedin. You have to LOOK for that silver platter and not HOPE someone finds you to give it to you.

A true IE is extremely valuable. And, it is a small community where the more skilled, the smaller the circle and within that circle opportunities abound.

There is still no certification that pays better and none as high in demand for the skill it represents. Many recruiters are lazy and ask for a CCIE when they don?t need one because let?s face it only Cisco Channel Partners have a true need for the IE numbers. Because of the tendency for recruiters to think network engineers are some voodoo science practitioners they will send out the call for a cert to short cut the technical requirements of a position.
I do still believe and I stake my career on it every single day, CCIEs are worth their weight in gold.

My employer calls for a CCIE as the first selection criteria for employment.

I am the first employee in my position in over a decade to not have a CCIE coming in the door that I'm aware of.

So... some employers do require a CCIE but due to supply/demand/interviews (by a proven CCIE, etc.)... every once in a while a CCNP - like me might actually get a break and make the cut.

They make me work for it:

Today:

1. CSS Load Balancers
2. Firewall/NAT TS.
3. IPSec VPN
4. Misc. Switching
5. Wireless
6. Layer 1 TS for Cabling.
7. Wireless Design and Provisioning
8. Nexus/Switching BoM Review
9. Cisco WCS Planning Tools
10. Mentoring Co-worker on CSS, FW, and Switching + TS with Debugging and Visio
11. Writeup for Trunking/Etherchannel/Spanning-Tree BPDUFilter/Guard/PortFast etc.
12. Writeup for Debugging Spanning-Tree
13. Visio Diagram for the Load Balancers
14. Meet with vendor for Fluke Optiview
15. Certificate Validation
16. Step by Step Write-up for Load Balancer Config with Validation.

That was all today... alone and I'm sure I left some stuff out.

On the private side:

Review of broadcast traffic effecting network performance and design, backup and procedures, review of a network analysis I performed with Sniffer Pro and my findings...

The list goes on and on...

Not bad for a Thursday - I was almost burnt out from Wednesday - didn't give up till I gave out after midnight Wednesday night.

We are on Friday morning...

This is Sparta baby and every day is a CCIE Lab or maybe more...

Darby

Training for a Cisco certificate heavily depends on who is doing the training. I just finished 2 years in college, and it seemed to me that the only thing that the instructor wanted was for it to end. He never set foot one time in the router room to assist students. We (the students) were actually teaching each other all of the hands on part of the class.

So much for CCIE's, i am a new CCNA and the issue is as usual - Getting experience!! So far the cert has not influenced my opportunities at all. Companies need to get a grip and realize that network prodigies are rare and usually myopic.

please view my post thanks.

My employer calls for a CCIE as the first selection criteria for employment.

I am the first employee in my position in over a decade to not have a CCIE coming in the door that I'm aware of.

So... some employers do require a CCIE but due to supply/demand/interviews (by a proven CCIE, etc.)... every once in a while a CCNP - like me might actually get a break and make the cut.

They make me work for it:

Today:

1. CSS Load Balancers
2. Firewall/NAT TS.
3. IPSec VPN
4. Misc. Switching
5. Wireless
6. Layer 1 TS for Cabling.
7. Wireless Design and Provisioning
8. Nexus/Switching BoM Review
9. Cisco WCS Planning Tools
10. Mentoring Co-worker on CSS, FW, and Switching + TS with Debugging and Visio
11. Writeup for Trunking/Etherchannel/Spanning-Tree BPDUFilter/Guard/PortFast etc.
12. Writeup for Debugging Spanning-Tree
13. Visio Diagram for the Load Balancers
14. Meet with vendor for Fluke Optiview
15. Certificate Validation
16. Step by Step Write-up for Load Balancer Config with Validation.

That was all today... alone and I'm sure I left some stuff out.

On the private side:

Review of broadcast traffic effecting network performance and design, backup and procedures, review of a network analysis I performed with Sniffer Pro and my findings...

The list goes on and on...

Not bad for a Thursday - I was almost burnt out from Wednesday - didn't give up till I gave out after midnight Wednesday night.

We are on Friday morning...

This is Sparta baby and every day is a CCIE Lab or maybe more...

Darby


I don't sleep as much as some. I study when I'm not working. I consult sometimes when I want to since I get regular offers as my luck would have it.

I work hard to stay in the field. I regularly answer questions of just about anything in the Cisco spectrum on mostly a day to day basis (hit google and see if your question has been addressed yet)...

The list goes on and on...

And I'm the guy who failed the CCIE....

There are lots of guys who passed and they make me look like a rank amateur.


My co-worker is a CCIE and he does as much or more every single day and keeps the CCIE standard upheld in the North.

I've got the South and I have to work hard to hold down my side of the fort.

This is what it is to be a CCIE - I am a resource for my entire team and other teams and so is my partner.

That's how life rolls. Don't step up if you can't keep up.

No rest for the truly wicked!

I'm writing this at 2:33am and my day starts fresh in a few short hours with a Design Meeting for a brand new hospital... and it don't stop or slow down from there... it just doesn't work that way.

Wanna earn the salary and privilege of a CCIE... gotta wear the stripes of the tiger and learn to roar...

BTW - We are hiring for one more to work with me... as you might can tell... I got a little bit on my plate.

Kenny is a great example of the next generation of CCIEs. If you have not seen this LinkedIn discussion (group Tech Certifications) or the CCIE Flyer articles she has provided (www.ccieflyer.com) then you should go check it out. The CCIE certification remains a terrific way to lift one?s career to new heights. I do predict a turnaround in the old trend of hiring only senior resources in Networking in favor of cost saving neophytes. Some of you in this forum have seen and felt the hesitancy of employers who are selecting only experts in the field and they do not give a proven smart youngster a start. But one of my predictions for 2011 is an end to that trend (which really has only been happening for about 10 years). I mentioned an Iranian CCIE here in this discussion yesterday, his update includes several interviews my team has been able to land him so his life may make a significant change. His struggle is a human struggle not a tale of race or religion, but human. Perseverance is a strong drink but it will be as refreshing as cool water when the journey leaves that milestone behind. Hang in there all of you, please. Our industry needs young blood more than you may know.

In my experience, real world hands-on experience has always trumped degrees and certifications...especially after so many companies have been burned through the "diploma mill" type fiascoes a few years ago. There is no recession for me because I can handle ALL of the IT needs of my small company. Cisco, Novell (when it was popular), Windows, Linux, Mac, HTML, PHP, etc., etc. You learn what is needed and become proficient at it. The real difference for most companies is the employees' ability to handle customers and staff with equal grace. Talking to them as people (having good relational skills). Being able to handle computer illiterates one minute then being able to meet with management about budgets and needs. Unfortunately, this is a dying skill for ubergeeks who've spent their lives in their parents basements playing video games, hacking, etc.

If one works in a small business forever, I would expect that there would be a need for diversity like that. Although I'd say that the depth of certain areas would be significantly different than what's being talked about here. While BGP is still BGP, there's a "little" difference from running a single peer shop (or static default route?) versus a world-wide service provider. But what do I know?

And don't go overinflating yourself or underestimating those out there... Just because a CCIE concentrates a lot in particular technologies does not mean that's all they are capable of.

If you can handle talking to an Uber-Geek (who does NOT live with his parents for the record), I'd be more than happy to compare skillsets and capabilities with you. From your list, you may have me on PHP, but I'm not so sure about the others that you cherish...

If you don't want one, don't play. It's a very simple personal decision... but in the meantime, there will be particular limitations on the scope of your career versus others. It's always a personal choice. Do what makes you happy! But let others do what makes them happy as well!

for all those people thinking that Cisco certs specially the CCIE certifications will guarantee them a 6 figure paycheck.

http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventures-in-it/the-straight-talk-its-new-directions-514?page=0,0


His second to the last paragraph on page 4 pretty much spells out what's in store for the IT engineers looking for jobs. To quote: " Don't get me wrong, the engine room is critical. But it needs fewer engineers to keep it running -- or should -- than in the early days. If the engine room is your passion, become a Scotty. But don't stay an ensign, because not many will be needed in the years to come".

The key point Mr. Gruman is saying is that that many large businesses are getting rid of their large staffs of engineers because they don't need them anymore. Large businesses are no longer willing to spend enormous sums of money on IT, on a continual basis and outsourcing their IT services to Cloud providers to reduce costs associated with IT.

IT hardware and software manufacturers are embracing the Cloud because if they don't, the Telecoms like AT&T, Verizon will merge IT [computers] into phone service with "use for 6 months and toss" smart phones along with businesses embracing the BYO smart phones, laptops, and the days of laptops, desktops and servers that businesses buy will dry up to nothing.

So the IT industry will no longer be what it was and is today. Businesses hiring IT workers. Businesses will buy IT services from " Internet based" IT providers and shed their IT departments. While CCIEs will be in demand there will be a small number of Internet Based IT provier companies that hire them to run the infrastructure. The app developers will also see a reduction as the small number of Internet Based IT providers that create them don't need fleets of developers. An app is simply a small foot print, Web based, front end to remote database.

Even field service techs won't be in demand as the smart phones take over computing from laptops and desktops. Smart phones are, use and toss because the O/S is firmware and apps are stored in SD or flash memory.

So while my view of IT is pretty bleak, the evolution of smart phones by Telecoms is what's driving the IT industry today. IT industry has to move to make smart devices or the Telecoms will take over what traditionally was IT.

I just asked 28 CCIEs from many different countries in my network the following questions.

Did the CCIE certification...

Make you a more marketable network engineer?

Increase your salary level?

Increase your salary expectations?

In five lines or less; Is the CCIE certification losing its value?

I am waiting for the responses which I will share with you. Some of these have just earned their CCIE and others have been CCIEs for over 15 years.

More marketable: yes.

Increase salary level: not really.

Increase your salary expectations: not really.

Losing its value?
I don?t know. I know that it?s losing some reputation. A CCIE is no longer the best of the best; he/she is just really good. Others (CCDE, CCA, VCDX) are more like to be ?the best?. To me personally, CCIE was a painful certification to obtain that?s painful to maintain, with limited recognized benefit to employers unless they are Cisco partners. The only reason I recertified this round was because of how hard it was to pass the lab to begin with. If I had let the certification lapse, it would have had no bearing on my current or future compensation with my current employer. At the same time, I recognize that certain opportunities I?ve heard about I never would have if I was not a CCIE.

Did your CCIE make you a more marketable network engineer?
For me, the CCIE certification's primary value has been that when I'm looking for a job, the CCIE opens up more opportunities for interviews for high level positions. It's also opened up opportunities for interviews with companies who benefit from employee certifications, primarily Cisco resellers and consulting companies. However, once you're in an interview it's no longer about the CCIE ? actually landing the job is about experience, technical skills, communications skills, and social skills.

Did your CCIE increase your salary level?
I don't think the CCIE has affected my salary level, but it has helped land interviews for high-level positions.

Did your CCIE increase your salary expectations?
I don't think the CCIE affected my salary expectations, either ? I had pretty high expectations to start with.

In five lines or less; Is the CCIE certification losing its value?
Sometime in the last decade the CCIE certification reached a kind of critical mass. There are enough CCIEs in the job market now that companies can expect to be able to hire one when they're looking for good people. That has increased demand for CCIEs because most network engineering positions now specifically list the CCIE as at least desired, if not a job requirement. However, supply and demand is also at work. With over 20,000 CCIEs and former CCIEs supply is up, putting downward pressure on salaries. A better question might be: has keeping your CCIE certification become more hassle than it's worth?

It certainly made me a more marketable engineer. I have been getting emails from recruiters on a near daily basis since adding those 4 letters and 5 numbers to my resume. Just like the supply and demand curves are supposed to work, having skills in high demand combined with a relatively low supply of engineers with those skills drives up the price you can expect to receive for your services. Although my current employer did not give me a raise for acquiring the certification, they are cognizant of the differential between my current and expected salary. I would say that it has definitely raised my expectations for the future.

As far as I'm concerned, great engineers are great because of the combination of knowledge with experience. Without one to back the other, it is impossible to be on top of your game. While I can see that there could be some watering down of the cert due to the number of study materials available making it "easier" than in previous years, I strongly believe that the value of the CCIE as a certification is still there. I am sure the "Paper CCIEs" are out there, but in my experience, every CCIE I have met has been a very strong engineer with a wide body of knowledge.

Prime example of why we need to some help with the certification:


[quote name='waqas CCIE#27815' timestamp='1295807605' post='901742']

in troubleshooting section your real life experience could be helpful but i will not say the person having no experience cannot clear it when i attempted lab i was not touch with regular field work means no experience but in configuration section no experience could help you that is only your knowledge which helps you to understand deeply ipv4/ipv6/qos/security/ip services etc these are topics not we usally configure in live environment

Read the quote again, it's bears repeating:


[quote name='waqas CCIE#27815' timestamp='1295807605' post='901742']

in troubleshooting section your real life experience could be helpful but i will not say the person having no experience cannot clear it when i attempted lab i was not touch with regular field work means no experience but in configuration section no experience could help you that is only your knowledge which helps you to understand deeply ipv4/ipv6/qos/security/ip services etc these are topics not we usally configure in live environment

So... what do we configure in a live environment these days anyway?

Make you a more marketable network engineer?
It did give me more confidence when interviewing which carried forth in my efforts to find employment.
I believe that it was a dual edged sword in some cases. For some positions I was flat out told that I was overqualified and would get bored and leave so they didn't hire me. On the other hand, it did get me in the door where I didn't get any call backs before.

Increase your salary level?
This is a definite yes.

Increase your salary expectations?
Yes.

In five lines or less; Is the CCIE certification losing its value?
I believe that the CCIE cert is still a valuable certification to have on the resume. Over time, with "tools" out there for CCIE preparation, a case could be made that passing is easier than 8-10 years ago which some feel devalues the certification overall. I feel that the value of the cert rests on the individual that represents it. In my role a a supervisor and hiring authority, I value the CCIE certification and feel that it still shows the individuals desire and drive to learn and prove their skills.

It has certainly helped me. But there can only be a few low numbered CCIEs, so my case isn't the general case.

I think that CCIE status still has value. If not in higher salary, it should help in longevity. When reducing staff, do you keep the CCIE or non-CCIE, all other factors being equal?

No I dont think CCIE certifications are losing value but are increasing their importance every single day. I passed CCIE in 2007 and straight forward I got a very nice salary. All Network related requirements now a days ask for a CCIE certifications and I guess people now understand what is the value of CCIE and what they can do. However certain tracks of CCIE people say are saturated eg. R&S but mainly they are in very high demand than other CCIE tracks. So the final verdict according to me is - CCIE gains importance every single day.

Absolutely it made me more marketable.

When I got my first CCIE, there was a salary jump. For the others, not really. But it was increased marketing and bonus potential more than direct salary.

I suppose. But I'd probably expect something similar based on quantity and quality of experience as well. Not really sure how to answer that as it is obviously not applying since I've been a CCIE for almost 12 years now.

Is the certification losing its value?
I suppose it depends on your perspective. I think that it's becoming a piece of information that possessing the CCIE ALONE will not magically get you anything. Personally, I don't think it ever SHOULD have, but did. So the CCIE is still as important as ever, it's just that the market seems to be correcting it's blind follow/worship of those with the certification and looking for more realistic and tangible things to go with it.
So for qualified CCIE's, no, there's absolutely no degradation. If you just got your CCIE "certification" and nothing else to go with it, the perceived value of "magical wand" for employment has gone away. It's a correction, not a loss of value.

Side note: In the late 1990's, everyone had this inane idea that it was awesome to invest in technology companies who made absolutely no profit, and in some cases, actually no product either! When reality set in, and people realized what a ridiculous situation they had gotten themselves into, the market corrected. Some called it a "dot-com crash", others just said the "bubble burst". I suppose ones feelings on that situation would depend on whether they lost lots of money or knew when to pull out! Same logic...

Make you a more marketable network engineer?
Yes

Increase your salary level?
Yes

Increase your salary expectations?
Yes

In five lines or less; Is the CCIE certification losing its value?
No, companies I deal with still hold the cert in high regard

As a young engineer, passing the CCIE exam gave me instant credibility and allowed me to more than double my salary within six months.
Maintaining my certification over the last twelve years has reinforced my standing in the industry. Passing this exam immediately opens up doors in the partner community, while consistently recertifying shows the commitment to life-long learning that all employers desire of their employees.

CCIE has still its value at least in the US.But you need to have enough experience along with your certifications .Some companies need CCIEs to increase their credit in front of their clients and some need CCIEs to get cisco partnerships .So there are still jobs which ccie is a must for them and consequently the role has a higher salary.

Prime example of why we need to some help with the certification:


[quote name='waqas CCIE#27815' timestamp='1295807605' post='901742']

in troubleshooting section your real life experience could be helpful but i will not say the person having no experience cannot clear it when i attempted lab i was not touch with regular field work means no experience but in configuration section no experience could help you that is only your knowledge which helps you to understand deeply ipv4/ipv6/qos/security/ip services etc these are topics not we usally configure in live environment

Read the quote again, it's bears repeating:


[quote name='waqas CCIE#27815' timestamp='1295807605' post='901742']

in troubleshooting section your real life experience could be helpful but i will not say the person having no experience cannot clear it when i attempted lab i was not touch with regular field work means no experience but in configuration section no experience could help you that is only your knowledge which helps you to understand deeply ipv4/ipv6/qos/security/ip services etc these are topics not we usally configure in live environment

So... what do we configure in a live environment these days anyway?

How many times are you going to post that quote? I think I've seen it way too many places now to have any effect.

Face it. There are idiots in the world. They're everywhere.... but we don't need to memorialize them!

For kids coming out of college, to have such certifications was required, even if they had no real-world experience. I worked with many. But the business world discovered that there were many talented and experienced people who could actually program routers and run MPLS systems, VOIPs, etc., even without the pedigree, which is why you always see "or 5 years experience" as part of a job description. You sound too judgmental to understand. Having a well-rounded education and experience is far more valuable to a company. It makes you more marketable and able to withstand changing market conditions. Remember the dot com crash of 2000? (Maybe not). You're right...it is a choice. I chose to take a smaller, less stressful job after working through the corporate BS. And during this recession I not only kept my job but negotiated a 10% increase. But you can choose to work for a company where you're just another number instead of a valued person with a name.

I have always thought of the CCIE as the top cert in this industry. The CCIE shows that as well as the ability to pass an exam, it shows that you have the experience gained over years and that you have the knowledge gained over the years. I read the article with interest and then you totally devalued it with this statement "His certification is new and he has no experience to speak of. ". How the hell did this guy get his cert if he has no experience to speak of. It is becoming clear that some people are sitting boot camp after boot camp until they pass and then when they get in to the real world they are stuffed. Boot camps are great but only as a tool to prepare you for the exam. If this guy has no experience suggest he stops putting himself forward as a CCIE and try to get a role that will give him the experience.
No experience to speak of CCIE, I ask you........Cisco sort this out before the CCIE ends up being a paper exercise!

In my opinion, certificates are material proof of one's abilities and level of knowledge. The CCIE is without doubt still widely respected in the industry. Despite the attempts to degrade the exam, I can assure you companies still take this into account. Yes, it may only come in second to experience but I think people should give credit to newbies (CCIE passers with less than 5 years experience). Give them a chance to earn both certifications and experience. Sure the experts are the kings of their craft but they don't have the same drive they used to.

The only way the CCIE will lose value is if there is no need for them...it will be base on supply and demand. I find it demoralizing in one post in the article someone speaks about a fresh college student who pass the CCIE but has no experience as if was bad. Further down one speak of an Iran who gain their CCIE with no work experience but talk about him with so much passion. I just dont get it ...

It made me wonder how will i be view once I graduate from my university with a CCNP. Will i be look at as a cert chaser ? Well I been enroll in the Cisco Academy since my first days in college, CCNA and CCNP have always been part of my degree curriculum. Will it be my fault i was able to gain my CCNP so easily since Cisco only recommends 1 year of real networking experience before you take the test ( the same as comptia Net+)? Did you guys know that Cisco recommends only 5 years or real networking experience for the CCIE or CCDE ?

So what is the problem here ? These newbie CCIE's ( anyone with less than 5 years experience) is look down on among their peers. They are look down because they went out and achieve and refuse to stay still at a certain level. I know quite a few establish season admin who do not even take a crack at more advance certification because they are not require to have them. As a matter of fact most of them feel as if their employer will not sponsor them in their training and cert they will not waste any time on it. That is not the way to go in today's highly competitive market.

In today's job market a master degree is look as the the status-quo. I see it all the time.. kids graduating then taking up a masters degree to increase their chances to get into med or law school, or to land a job within their field of study. So over achieving in school or training with no experience is the norm now... you can thank the economy for that. Honestly i look at you elder IT professionals as very lucky individuals. Only during your era of time a company would allow someone with no experience and no degree to break into the IT field as a walk on. In today's world a bachelors in computer science or related discipline is mandatory.... add in at least 2-4 years experience and you have a shot unless you graduated from a high profile school.