Discussion on:

Linux is losing the race to the tablet

Are we forgetting that Android is Linux?

IKR. I could have sworn Android was not only linux based, but open source as well.

"linux based"

the JAVA on top that is 100% of what the user interacts with means Android is java more than linux.
rules android out for being a linux os powering a tablet.

You're forgetting that developers for android can develop for the Java VM OR develop C++ apps with the native dev kit. It IS a linux powered tablet.

A Linux Distro is one Based on the linux kernel. The user interface whether it is java based QT based or GTK or python has nothing to do with linux except that it is on top. You could say that ubuntu is more Gnome than it is linux and it is still a flawed statement. Java cannot run on its own. It must have a kernel (linux, unix, dos etc. etc.) for it to be usable just like any other UI. So Android IS a linux distro with a Java desktop environment.

My thoughts exactly...

Andriod is a version of Linux that was created for cell phone use, in order to fight the iPhone. Granted the new version is tailored for tablets, it's still a beefed up cell phone OS. Just like the iPad, it's based on the cell phone OS with changes for a larger interface.

I believe this article puts Andriod in a different category, even though it is technically Linux for that reason. When people think of Linux, they think of Ubuntu, SUSE, etc. No one has created a desktop tablet replacement as of yet that's hand held and price comparable to the iPad or any of the new tablets out there running some form of dumbed down version of Linux.

A perfect example: I used Adobe Photoshop CS4 on a regular basis, but my copy is for Windows because that is what I use at work. I use Ubuntu on my personal computer, and can install Photoshop through Wine with some tweaking. I also own the iPad running JumpDesktop in order to connect to my work and home Windows computer when needed. So far there is no tablet that meets my needs to run any of the software I use on a daily basis.

Isn't it just another distro?

Android is based upon the Linux kernel. But much of the user-space tools that Linux relies upon are not there. Android using the Linux kernel is like Windows XP using DOS. Sure it's there, but it's not really DOS. I'm referring to a tablet with a full-blown Linux distribution.

Uh, XP doesn't use DOS. No version of Windows has had DOS underpinnings since ME.

The point he's trying to make is valid though. Android is a Java user environment that happens to sit on top of a *nix like kernel. To go beyond it being a simple java runtime environment, one has to start modifying the OS; gaining root access, installing a userland behind the java RE and so on. Sap out the Linux kernel for a stripped down BSD or whatever and you still only have a java RE sitting on top of a *nix like kernel.

It'd be like saying Bob's OS is a real Windows OS because he happened to start with a highly stripped down and modified NTkernel before adding minimal requirnments between the kernel and Oracle's Java RE. Forgetting the fact that none of Bob's changes are going to be accepted upstream at Microsoft and when the system is booted, you get dumped directly into a java app running inside the JRE; no start menu, no iexplore, nothing provided beyond what exists inside that JRE sandbox. At this point, you don't have a Windows install; you have a JRE install that happens to use ntkernel behind it semewhere and would be the same JRE user interface if ntkernel was swapped for something else.

So, Vista isn't really a Windows OS? Just a gui running on the NT kernel?

Linux won't die so easy... Android is surely good contender to Win OS.

ain't no way I would buy a tablet if it was Ubuntu on it, in ANY form.

not likely to buy a tablet anyway, got no use for a system that doesn't come with a keyboard.

In addition to Jaqui's reason, I have no use for a WiFi device and am not willing to pay for a cellular connection, regardless of OS or hardware price.

This winner/loser aggressive mentality doesn't apply to Open Source. Linux is a sharing, collaborative, kinder, gentler OS. The only way for it to "die" is for all benevolent, intelligent, supportive people to die first. While all the big gun corporatist OS's are gunning their engines around the Indy 500 track at 200 miles per hour hoping to "win" the race, Linux is driving down Main Street to the local grocery store for some milk - elegantly, efficiently, reliably and affordably.

... using a manual transmission without synchromesh technology.

Not all distros are buld with Automatic Transmissions.. that doesn't mean that all distros are built with Manual Transmissions either. It's still much less user hostile than osX (pretty but only so long as you want to stay within it's approved uses).

I've heard you complain about OSX being an oppressive environment before, but I don't really understand why? It could be my limited exposure, but I see a pretty, stable GUI with loads of 3rd party support, and a full geek-worthy POSIX environment all in one. It's what people like Mr. Wallen want Linux to be.

I'm asking out of honesty, because I probably just don't "get it".. Where are the bars?

http://www.motorward.com/wp-content/images/2009/09/tony-nancy-drag-racing.jpg

Don't spill the milk.

I agree here. Linux has its purpose. I'm not sure having Linux on every desktop and tablet in consumers' hands is really all that important. The only thing we (Linux users) would win is better support from hardware manufacturers and content providers. But, there's almost always a HW manufacturer with a fondness for the OSS crowd. And as far as content goes, where there's a will there's a way.

Absolutely right on the mark. This "winner take all" mentality is absurd. Society is wide open for variety, and success doesn't demand the biggest market share, it simply demands that a product meet the needs of the people who appreciate it. How could we possibly be asking the question whether someone would buy a Linux tablet? Who would not want stability, openness, affordability, stability, choice, reliability, elegance, stability, stability, stability...?

http://nontechietalk.blogspot.com/search/label/Ubuntu

Well said cbader@. Ubuntu has already run on a Kindle - and it will run on the smaller tablets soon enough for me.

Well said cbader@. Ubuntu has already run on a Kindle - and it will run on the smaller tablets soon enough for me.

Microsoft hasn't been able to deliver a version of Windows that is any where near applicable for a tablet, so any pondering that Windows tablets will flood the market soon is way off base - not to mention, whatever they do deliver will likely fall to the same fate as Zune/Kine/WinPhone7 - e.g. a big flop no matter how much marketing money Microsoft throws at it.

And as others have mentioned, Android is Linux-based too. So to properly count it, you have to count Android with all the other Linux Distros. Granted, it's not quite the same - but it is still Linux at the core.

So, you can very well expect that the tablet market will take on the same characteristics as the phone market is right now. Apple will take second in the long run, with Android taking first place by quite a large margin. Apple and Android will spur each other to do better. Meanwhile, Microsoft will make a few failed attempts throwing billions of dollars at it each time without getting any where near the top two. You can probably expect Tablets with other Linux Distros (e.g. Ubuntu) taking up most of the rest of the top 10, which may or may not contain a Microsoft variant (more likely not).

As other's also pointed out; Android is a Java user environment that happens to have a Linux kernel behind it. it'd still be the same Java sandboxed environment if it was stacked on top of a BSD or any other kernel. I'm also not sure how much of Google's work on the forked Linux kernel gets passed back upstream to Linux propper.

The "Linux" in android is only in terms of the kernel; your still missing the full userland, standard commands and general interactivity outside of Java (jailbreaking blending the lines to some degree but not turning Android into a standard Linux based distro).

It's like calling a highly VW bug with a modified hemmi in it a "truck" because the engine happens to be a "Hemmi" just like the two tone rig parked beside it.

Linux doesn't face any need to obtain market share. Most people don't buy a "Linux" PC. They buy a PC, that can run OS X or Windows, and then they put Linux on it. Linux isn't about winning. Linux is about options. Linux is about the fundamental notion that your hardware vendor should not be making your software decisions. This is why Cyanogen is doing JUST FINE. It runs on devices manufactured by other people. The time of the hardware manufacturers trying to control the software environment must end.

@YngJoe_z

You've hitched your wagon to one single closed software. That's totally your prerogative. It does not by any means reflect upon the tablet community. FYI Wacom has a Cintiq tabletesque device that they seem to feel works just fine, and Asus has a Windows 7 tablet with plenty of horsepower for Adobe's bloatware.

This is the thinking that will prevent Linux from getting traction in consumer markets. The idea that software should be divorced from hardware isn't fundamental, it's fundamentalist. Every device is not a smaller web server, but this is how (most) Linux cheerleaders see things. On a web server, the interface doesn't matter a whit. On a desktop computer, it does more so. On a laptop, even more. On a tablet, with touch and a limited ability to input data, even more so. Is it any wonder that Linux has been less successful on each of these levels?

When Dave Thomas (founder of Wendy's) took over a bunch of KFC restaurants early in his career, he took a bunch of options OFF the menu. He took away people's choices! Yet the restaurants became MORE successful. Why? And it's not because people are stupid. Sometimes you just want some chicken, darn it.

Can you imagine if cars didn't come with dashboards or steering columns, but there was a 'universal', customizable, inexpensive 'control device' that fit in any of them? It would be paradise for hot rodders and custom car hobbyists, perhaps. But should a Ford F-150 really drive the same way as a Mini Cooper? Should people take 10 hours upon buying a car to get it set up to drive they way they want? Apple (and certain other companies) are able to push forward the window of what people do with technology BECAUSE they realize that people don't see hardware and software as separate, they see a device that does (or doesn't) do what they want.

Linux is, in fact, about options. Options can be good. But so long as "Options" is ALL that you're about, making a coherent, usable device becomes more and more difficult. Linux and open source software can be very powerful. But so far its greatest success is either where choice is everything and interface matters not at all (the server) or where the interface is in fact locked down completely (embedded). Hopefully by the time a balance is found, it won't be too late.

I'd be happy with just a bit more consumer market share; just enough to convinse more hardware manufactures to provide kernel/X/linuxdrivers.org with the specs to write support or ideally, provide driver source and share the development work with the OSS folks.

You also can't underestimate the power of pre-installs. If it doesn't come on the device initially, the majority of consumers are not going to care; they care only about what does come from the store on the device. if it's pre-installed, hardware issues have been dealt with by the vendor already.

It's a scary thought for some but mortals should have the option to choose Linux based distros too.. not just those of us who've put in the time. "Linux" isn't a country club that only some of us should be allowed to earn our way into.

Until the Linux-tablet designers (are there Linux designers, or just programmers?) realize that there are inherent balance issues with the list above, they'll run into problems with the consumer market. One of the reasons that iOS devices have "cleaner, better interfaces" is because they are 'locked' down. Flexibility and features almost always lead to complexity, which is the enemy of 'simple and clean'. You can argue (quite reasonably) that Apple strays too far in other direction, because let's face it, 'lock-down' has business advantages as well. However, as long as the open-source camp pretends that there isn't even an issue, and that 'lock-down' and lack of customization is a result solely of some sort of emotional complex on the part of Apple, we'll continue to get tablets that appear to have been 'designed' to check off as many features as possible from a list, instead of being designed to be a functional device.

Android is Linux. MeeGo is Linux, there are other linux based platforms.

Linux is a kernel and if you consider GNU/Linux, a set of libraries on top and around that kernel.

It's like saying that "linux" is not a player in the server room, but RedHat and SuSE are.

"If Linux is to gain any ground now, there must be a tablet maker shipping a model, an impressive model, with Linux pre-installed."

Remove the word 'tablet' and it's the same story as Linux failing to get a foothold in the desktop and laptop markets.

The basic functionality found in any system like Linux, Android & iOS is just too limited to provide a platform for me to use. I want a portable computing device that would run the applications that I use on my computer. If the device does not provide 100% functionality that I currently have, then it does not meet my needs and therefore is insufficent for my needs.

We have over 60 of them in use since they came out in 2008, and we continue to buy more. All running Fedora, so performance is super. And we use these in remote areas with no power available, so battery life of 4-6 hours works out great for us. I think your reference to the netbook 'craze' is a little ... off? Depends on what your preconceptions of their use are!

And Android is Linux is it not? No doubt the platform will under work in the near future to get over the Java hurdles. No doubt GNU tools will be added in the near future. And isn't it all open source, despite being Google controlled? The game is early yet.

Google Android and other Linux distros will win for the simple reason that they are the way of the future. Apple has demonstrated tremendous innovation in the past 6-8 years, but there is no way it can sustain the lead when faced with so much competition on open platforms. Give it another couple of years before it returns to being a niche player. And the number of dimwits still tied to M$ reduces by millions each month. Time is running out for M$ too, just like it has been for Nokia and RIM though they remained in a state of denial for so long.

Corporate replaced my laptop last month with a netbook. I lost two essential ports (replaced with dongles) and got a smaller keyboard and glossy display. I also now have a second bag to carry everything I need that no longer fits in the computer case.

Yes, it's lighter and battery life is better, but other than cost, I don't see the benefits.

If you have large hands, if you are travel mostly by car, if you have access to good power supply, you may be better off with a light laptop. Part of the issue may be 'Corporate' and the thinking that has gone into getting you the netbook and how its been configured.

Our teams travel on bikes and trains, so weight does make a big difference. They carry a regular backpack and the netbook fits in snugly. Price and performance are both significant considerations for us, and netbooks with Fedora do the job. The netbooks come at about $275, and we run FOSS local browser based transaction (DB) apps on the systems (XForms/PHP/MySQL DB apps, mail / chat), or the LibreOffice suite. Fast boot up / shutdown, total cost of all hw+sw under $300, reliable, convenient. Works great for us, phenomenal potential across the developing world! So it always makes me wonder when people write off netbooks. We have yet to port our apps to tablets, so we will know over the next few months on that front. But I don't see tablets replacing netbooks, since they are essentially consumption devices, so we would use for things like video conferencing & tele-medicine but not for transaction entry.

Absolutely true, until you consider the potential in Bluetooth keyboards.

Of course, at that point, you've pretty much turned it into a netbook. But you get to choose between the two form factors as you go.

a Gnu/Linux powered tablet PC is needed. Android is Linux, but not Gnu/Linux since, IIRC, this OS uses its own proprietary utilities supplanting those from the Gnu project. I believe Jack feels that a Gnu/Linux powered tablet would out-perform, feature for feature, any current tablet PC on the market now as that massive repository of software available dwarfs even that available to the iPad. Just my interpretation of the article.

Am i wrong? If not, then Linux is already in the tablet market =)

yes
I agree all of you about this.
Do you agree?

iOS was MADE for a tablet sized device, Apple had plans to re-release their Newton tablets with a new OS, but Steve Jobs put a halt to that as he saw netbooks were dying/being killed by his macbook air, and smart phones were starting to take off. HE then MADE the design team squeeze it into a phone and put the tablet idea on hold for the time being. I am surprised how often people refer to iOS as a phone OS forced on a tablet.
Anyone that has read any of my posts knows I am NOT an Apple fan, but I do believe that Steve Jobs is the greatest business man ever. Anyone who can disprove that is a liar. I think the iPad will sell like mad just because he made an appearance at the announcement, he just made 60% of his sales by showing up when no one expected him.

Since when is Linux a tablet?