Discussion on:
View:
Show:
You are right on with all by number three...after about 12-14 hours on the job, the youthful ones give out, all because they were up all night, the night before, at a party.
I don't buy the age argument, and the IT industry will be hard pressed to replace retiring workers with younger ones, there simply aren't enough of them to fill all positions. Besides if you look after yourself you can work until any age, after 75 it might get problematic though.
I started in the computer industry as a tech with DEC in 1980 at the age of 28. I later picked up a position with Lockheed and there became interested with programing and a couple of years later with system administration. My supervisor was in his 60's and the director didn't retire until he was 74. These 'old' guys were some of the sharpest mentors I ever had.
Their confidence in me made it possible for me to take on the semi-managerial roles I have had since then, but I have gone back to the field work because I enjoy the rigorous lack of a daily grind. At 59 I am still keeping the younger people of the organization a challenge to keep up with me. Don't ever discount the advantages of experience.
Their confidence in me made it possible for me to take on the semi-managerial roles I have had since then, but I have gone back to the field work because I enjoy the rigorous lack of a daily grind. At 59 I am still keeping the younger people of the organization a challenge to keep up with me. Don't ever discount the advantages of experience.
You young whipper snapper! I joined DEC in '77 at the age of 29.
I agree, but I am slowing down. Why beat my body up when I can use my brain to help the kids learn with mentoring.
I agree, but I am slowing down. Why beat my body up when I can use my brain to help the kids learn with mentoring.
"Besides if you look after yourself you can work until any age, after 75 it might get problematic though."
That's not much of an issue, today, when those over 35 are frequently dumped. There's a great deal of pressure pushing STEM workers out of these fields that can be seen within a year or two of graduation. I recall seeing an article a few years back in which someone had looked at the numbers and found that 35% of new STEM grads couldn't get STEM work. After 6 years, only 57% of CS grads had programming jobs, and after 20 years a mere 19% were still working as programmers. More recent reports show that it's still true that only about a third of STEM workers get STEM jobs within a couple years of graduation.
OTOH, in a 2004 survey, 52% of highly-paid executives surveyed believed they could land a job after sending out fewer than 100 resumes (and they still can't/or refuse to believe how difficult it is for bright, creative, industrious, knowledgeable US STEM workers to get STEM work).
At the same time, one of the best indicators/correlates of health and long life is wealth. So, if you're a STEM pro with long stretches of unemployment or under-employment, your life expectancy may fall short of the current circa 80-year-plus norm (after having reached adulthood as contrasted with life-expectancy at birth which is now about 78 years and is heavily biased by very high early life risks).
That's not much of an issue, today, when those over 35 are frequently dumped. There's a great deal of pressure pushing STEM workers out of these fields that can be seen within a year or two of graduation. I recall seeing an article a few years back in which someone had looked at the numbers and found that 35% of new STEM grads couldn't get STEM work. After 6 years, only 57% of CS grads had programming jobs, and after 20 years a mere 19% were still working as programmers. More recent reports show that it's still true that only about a third of STEM workers get STEM jobs within a couple years of graduation.
OTOH, in a 2004 survey, 52% of highly-paid executives surveyed believed they could land a job after sending out fewer than 100 resumes (and they still can't/or refuse to believe how difficult it is for bright, creative, industrious, knowledgeable US STEM workers to get STEM work).
At the same time, one of the best indicators/correlates of health and long life is wealth. So, if you're a STEM pro with long stretches of unemployment or under-employment, your life expectancy may fall short of the current circa 80-year-plus norm (after having reached adulthood as contrasted with life-expectancy at birth which is now about 78 years and is heavily biased by very high early life risks).
from my experience, the vast majority of people hiring IT staff would rather have someone cheap and uneducated than expensive and skilled. The reason for this is simple. the majority of IT work is not sophisticated. It's complicated because of poorly designed tools and interfaces but it's not sophisticated. It's cheaper to train uneducated talent to use the next generation of poorly designed tools than it is to retrain someone with deep understanding of the current generation.
We are letting down people would have we let them think the IT career has any substance. we need to educate them to the fact that the day they start working IT is the day they need to start training for the second career.
We are letting down people would have we let them think the IT career has any substance. we need to educate them to the fact that the day they start working IT is the day they need to start training for the second career.
I think you hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what I encountered at my previous job. When they interviewed me, the super said, " I actually prefer people with no experience, they can be shaped".
The problem was, their idea of "shaping" is to bring in call receipt agents, and continue that mentality in a complex environment. Result, flapping network.
The problem was, their idea of "shaping" is to bring in call receipt agents, and continue that mentality in a complex environment. Result, flapping network.
Hey Jack, please stop with the age discrimination. I am 49, and yes, I am getting older but I am far from dead! I have been working in the field for over 20 years and hopefully I have many more years left to go. So lighten up! Just remember, you too will be 49 one day as well!
Being able to do the job and being hired when you are pushing 50 with a short stick become unrelated. Jack is telling it how it is - not how he wishes it was.
For someone who doesn't know his ass from his elbow, given indissolute youth, about how it is that we all are.
It's, "sheer intelligence", by the way; not, "shear".
Squeeze all you can, Jack, out of your writing "for more than 12 years". No self-respecting, intelligent writer -- thinker -- would be caught dead saying that in public, unless an indissolute flack.
It's, "sheer intelligence", by the way; not, "shear".
Squeeze all you can, Jack, out of your writing "for more than 12 years". No self-respecting, intelligent writer -- thinker -- would be caught dead saying that in public, unless an indissolute flack.
That's a tad ageist, too, innit?
Indissolute youth and flack-ness aside, "shear" is now fixed.
Indissolute youth and flack-ness aside, "shear" is now fixed.
"Indissolute".
You wanna play...throw away your rule book; that is, unless you have not gotten beyond it; in which case, you need a comma after, "picky", as well as after, "but".
Thank you.
You wanna play...throw away your rule book; that is, unless you have not gotten beyond it; in which case, you need a comma after, "picky", as well as after, "but".
Thank you.
I see everything described here finds right context with the practicle situations. Thanks for putting it in nice writing. Great Work Mr. Wallen!
Tsk, tsk, tsk Jack. Yes there is age discrimination out there. But you don't have to continue to promote it!
As an over-50s engineer and now self-employed IT Consultant (as I got rejected time after time for the going positions), I can say one thing, the older we are, the BETTER we are. The young ones THINK they know PCs, servers and networking. But they don't - for example - UNDERSTAND how the "GPS" signal indicator on their iPhones work! Or bother to take the trouble to find out. If you want something fixed PROPERLY, it's the past elbow grease that counts. Unlike other jobs, working in IT is not a job, it's a LIFE. Something that the young ones don't seem to understand.
As an over-50s engineer and now self-employed IT Consultant (as I got rejected time after time for the going positions), I can say one thing, the older we are, the BETTER we are. The young ones THINK they know PCs, servers and networking. But they don't - for example - UNDERSTAND how the "GPS" signal indicator on their iPhones work! Or bother to take the trouble to find out. If you want something fixed PROPERLY, it's the past elbow grease that counts. Unlike other jobs, working in IT is not a job, it's a LIFE. Something that the young ones don't seem to understand.
You make a lot of assumptions about what young people know. Thinking you know more than you do is a common quality that is certainly not restricted to the younger generation.
I have found that when work is required after hours, the "1040ez" crowd are the first to "whine" about their precious time being taken away.The majority of them were hourly and still "b1tched" about it. Mature IT workers resolve issues, young IT workers apply "band-aids and work-arounds. I have had employess of all ages and each age group has it's share of weak IT skills. I also have found that veterans, young and old, have all of traits you've listed.
As an over 50, with 30+ plus years experience in this field, this is exactly what I have experienced. The company I work for now has an awesome group- some older, some younger but we all work together- we all make mistakes and we all learn from them. This group has been the exception rather than the rule?
You were lucky to have that environment. My old company systematically eliminated all the over 40 team bringing in young employees they could hire at entry level pay. Then complained when they left in weeks to a year for better pay.
Not all young workers apply band aid solutions and work arounds and some older workers do.
But I think too much focus on "tickets" results in IT departments like that, not the age of the staff. There is no motivation to do proactive maintenance when everything is measured in tickets completed.
But I think too much focus on "tickets" results in IT departments like that, not the age of the staff. There is no motivation to do proactive maintenance when everything is measured in tickets completed.
As a 53 year old training for a career change the age comment really pisses me off. I am currently in the restaurant biz 12 to 16 hour days are routine! One of the reasons I have to work so much is younger workers that don't show up! A good friend who is a Net.Admin said my work ethic would do well in IT so that is why I have pursued the training. I feel that I will have a good 20 years to give when I start.
Jack...I loved the article but you're way off on the age thing. I'm thinking that you added that little piece to make the article more "interesting" and/or more controversial. If you knew people half as good as you seem to think, you would know your age comments were inappropriate and a truly large, steaming pile of horse shiattte.
Here's my argument:
1) I'm 56. I've had a GREAT career in IT. Didn't start until I was 40. I was in the Airlines before. My career is going great right now as a College Instructor and an IT Professional. I enjoy a very healthy relationship with Contractors and Companies of all kinds. They call me ALL of the time....thank you very much.
2) My sister is 50. She works for the Army Corps of Engineers. She makes KILLER money as a Sys Admin site lead. She's an MCSE and a full fledged employee of Lockheed-Martin. He future looks nothing but bright.
3) My sisters husband is 52. He is an IT Professional also. He's very good and very current on his skills & Certs. Contractors are all over him all of the time. In fact, he's talking to one as I write this.
4) One of my best friends works for IBM. He's an IT Professional also. He's 63. GREAT guy and still smart as a whip.
Shall I go on? I do have more examples but I think you get the drift. You're very wrong about the age thing. Please don't write stuff like that anymore. It doesn't represent you or Tech Republic very well. Plus...it's just plain inaccurate information. Other than that...I love your articles. I read them all of the time.
Paul - Atlanta
Here's my argument:
1) I'm 56. I've had a GREAT career in IT. Didn't start until I was 40. I was in the Airlines before. My career is going great right now as a College Instructor and an IT Professional. I enjoy a very healthy relationship with Contractors and Companies of all kinds. They call me ALL of the time....thank you very much.
2) My sister is 50. She works for the Army Corps of Engineers. She makes KILLER money as a Sys Admin site lead. She's an MCSE and a full fledged employee of Lockheed-Martin. He future looks nothing but bright.
3) My sisters husband is 52. He is an IT Professional also. He's very good and very current on his skills & Certs. Contractors are all over him all of the time. In fact, he's talking to one as I write this.
4) One of my best friends works for IBM. He's an IT Professional also. He's 63. GREAT guy and still smart as a whip.
Shall I go on? I do have more examples but I think you get the drift. You're very wrong about the age thing. Please don't write stuff like that anymore. It doesn't represent you or Tech Republic very well. Plus...it's just plain inaccurate information. Other than that...I love your articles. I read them all of the time.
Paul - Atlanta
- Keyboard Shortcuts:
- Prev
- Next
- Toggle
