Discussion on:

Why consultants should not sell generic PCs and servers

Every vendor will have some failures. the more of a particular make and model you have the higher the chances of you running into this obviously. but a lot of it can be avoided by going with what is good/best and not what is cheapest. I've got computers I built ten years ago that are still going strong right alongside s few old Dells... but these have seen many more Dells meet the scrap heap over those years. The adage holds true, "Garbage in, garbage out."

This does not mean that I automatically assume that you or whoever cheaped out on everything about the white boxes, but your descriptions of the failures tend to color the picture that way. Truth be known it is hard to provide a white box for the same price as the big boys. If I get to choose the components of a custom build then I know I can trust it and would take it over Dell, HP, or any other pre-built.

The number one reason was left out. If you are a good consultant, you have more profitable uses for you time than competing with Chinese manufacturing companies. (There are some good smaller integrators that are better than the big boys, but I don't consider that to be white box). I am big on small computers that bolt to the back of the monitor these days, the ASUS EEE box is big on my list for desktops. Cheap, reliable (knock wood), and fewer cables running around for users to kick out of the socket. (All in ones mean you have to replace the monitor every time you upgrade).

But I strongly agree that some special purpose boxes may need a custom build machine. But even then there are appliance makers that may have the bundle done already.

The black box (Major) systems tend to have fewer 'glitches' than a whitebox system bought for a hundred or so dollars less. I recently rolled out HPs to give myself more time for other things than troubleshooting the existing white boxes, and it worked! That being said, the executive and accounting offices gave me Hell for the costs. Said that the extra productivity from the employees (and from me) 'wouldn't happen'. I think they were wrong.

Some of the whiteboxes were actually well-built with good components. Even some of the cheaper ones have lasted near 10 years! But there always seemed to be calls every other day about 'glitches'. Annoying little things that just kept happening, although they didn't disrupt operations at all. With the HPs, those calls have disappeared. That being said, I didn't get the 'cheapest' HP business systems I could. I go a couple of models up and settle there. Also, one of my branches went out on their own and bought HP home systems to save money. I don't think any of those systems lasted 3 years...

When I spec white-box, I DO build it myself, or closely supervise those that do. It's not worth the time at the employee desktop level. Heck, even at the server level I think it's worth it to go name-brand. But when our drafting department cried that they NEEDED a high-end workstation (worth about $15k or more) and had NO money in their budget, I told them I could build one for $3k. The system works beautifully, is better appointed than the black-box one, and hasn't suffered a hiccup.

I agree that brand-names SHOULD be prevalent in business. They do pay off in the long-run. A white-box built to the same standard will usually cost almost as much! But if you have a client that insists, I don't buy the 'hard to get parts' arguments. I find them easier to troubleshoot, and you can roll up some of the costs savings to have a spare PC or two for use or for parts! So far, the HPs only glitches have been with hard drives (which saves me no time since I need to restore the data), and some other little things I've needed to rely on tech support to help me with, and they've done nothing but argue that no problem exists! I find white-boxes take a few minutes to troubleshoot and a few more to repair, most times.

If you are selling anything besides your time, expertise and knowledge, you are not a consultant. You are an equipment salesman. Now if all you do is recommend equipment to buy, without getting anything in return from the vendor of that equipment, then that is fine, but the moment you go to selling stuff, you quit becoming a consultant and become a common equipment vendor.

The issue is not big box vs. white box. The box is not the measure, the measure is the integrity of the support personnel. I have seen much abused of customers by BIG box companies that you do not mention. To get a Big Box mentality is the same as saying the government should take care of all our problems. No people need to trust in something other than BIG, cause big is going to take advantage of you. Sir you miss the real issue.

Just to touch on something I said earlier, you buy a bunch of name brand systems, you can plan on sending a handful back as DOA. Do you know how many DOA system's I have delivered? None! That's what happens when you build it, if there is a bad part, it is taken care of before the customer gets the machine. It's called customer service. I have a compaq that was provided for me for my job. I had it 1 week before it started saying CPU fan has failed, I called compaq and we determined it's a bad fan. They won't send me a replacement fan, I have to send them the box, it will only take 2 WEEKS!!!! I bought a fan and had it fixed in ten minutes! Yup you go and buy the big name boxes and get their idea of customer service.

FYI: I've found the BAD CAPACITOR problem in both NAME BRAND and WHITE BOX motherboards..

As far as I'm concerned, that blows your whole SCREED out of the water!

I've been in this industry BEFORE there was a real PC. I can compare the countless motherboards and components from a hardware standpoint.

I hate to break it to your CLOSED MIND, but BOTH Big Box and White Box companies have their share of bad designs pushed onto the public. The Big Box companies just have a PR Department that can do DAMAGE CONTROL. Dell is just one example of this type of ANTI-SOCIAL behavior.

Why you think you are qualified to make such a sweeping statement?

Your behavior appears to make you a SHILL for some of the advertisers for ZD...

Just like a certain butthead that shills for M$......

I tend to disagree with the reasoning in this article that all white box machines are lower quality (don't last as long) as brand name machines. I personally don't build machines because it's more work than I want to do and I don't want to be build the documentation or be forced to stick around through the life of the machine. Where I see brand name computer being better is that they have documentation about the system online and it's easy to find. They have driver downloads all in the same location as well.

Bill

I build white box to provide improved quality of each component.
I always offer a price guaranty. You can buy every component cheaper somewhere else.

I was dragged into consulting part time for someone who couldn't find a decent consultant. And my son's school roped me into the job as a volunteer. And I spec'd major brands, as I do in my 'daylight' job.

Frankly, I don't care what the hardware costs... it doesn't cost ME, it costs the customer. But is has to be solid, and I spec the right system to do the job.

I remember specing a Dell server with RAID, they charged me for 'integrating' the raid controller... hell, it didn't even show up on the same day, forget aboutit being 'integrated'! And I had to hunt for drivers... and shoehorn them onto startup floppies for NT SBS (Ok, it's been a while...) which was supposed to be factory installed. You get the idea.

And I've run into other issues, from the HP server that refused to boot Redhat (which it was supposedly 'customized' for) with a USB keyboard, to jumping through hoops to get Dell to send me the 25th disk that failed out of the crummy batch they sent me at my son's school. Oh, and stripping out the bloatware on factory OS installs is so much work, it's easier to build a fresh image and just image the machines.

White box desktops are just plain silly. Anyone who thinks he can undercut a Tiawanese assembly line on price is kidding himself; but the majors are no picnic, either!

The same can be said for the name brand "big boys" if you start buying outside their corporate line. I don't run screaming when I see a whitebox, and when I spec one it is with corporate level parts. Case in point I still have a dual core Opteron 939 server I built around 2006 and it's running great.

Now why you would want to spec a whitebox might be personal preference or control over design. If the reason is to save a buck, cost can cut you with name brand or whitebox. You get what you pay for.

As far as software piracy goes I've seen a ton of it OEM on those corporate name brands, especially WinXP professional.

While this article is a interesting anecdote it sounds as if your conclusions are biased.

I boils down to one thing with pc's whether it is White Box or Name Brand, I build custom PC's when a customer really wants a pc that lasts.. DELL, HP IMB, etc, I have replaced just as many as them as I have cheap white boxed PC's. I will agree with you on the software side of things...allot of white boxes will have software that is not registered. But, I have very few customers come to me after I have built a customer a custom computer with problems. Most of the time it is for a upgrade 3 to 4 year later. It all boils down to the parts you use in my opinion and the environment that it is built in.

We started with White Boxes before they were pegged with the name. It took several trys until we hit the right combination of motherboard, graphics, and HDD. With the right combination the systems were solid and if one did need a part, it was readily available. Our servers were White Boxes and when we moved to HP, my hope was that HP would be as reliable as the servers I built. They are! We ran Exchnge up to 5.5, SQL 7(?), SMS, printer & file sharing 24/7/365 on White Box servers until they were replaced with HP DL 380 series boxes. The cost savings is just not enough of incentive to build a White Box. Straight away, I can not built a box as sophisticated as the HP's are engineered, and certainly not save much in the process. I do think White Boxes are still a viable alternative, just choose the components, and the intended usage wisely.

I've been working with DIY whitebox workstations and servers for decades. I started out in retail PC sales at a small mom & pop shop before the big box stores came along and destroyed that model for the most part. I've had GREAT reliability from DIY machines during that period. I'd say most of my DIY machines outlast their functional usefulness. Becoming obsolete is what kills these old machines. Along the way, those machines often offer an upgrade path, where I've had DIY machines that have morphed slowly into complete new machines over the period of years, ugprading component by component taking a machine from one state, through an intermediate state, to a final state, before the technology changes so much in some fundamental way that all the equipment reaches a logical End of Life.

During that time, I've also seen some rampant industry problems cause outrageous failure rates. The Taiwanese Capacitor Plague is probably one of those defining moments in any IT professional's career who has been in the industry for awhile. In the DIY market it was mostly low end components that had the highest failure rates related to fautly capacitor electrolyte. In particular, AMD systems seemed to be real prone to losing IDE channels when busted caps leaked fluid and shorted out contacts. I saw this issue frequently, and consistently on AMD systems with VIA chipsets. I don't think it was AMD's fault, or Via's fault. I think that AMD and VIA tended to end up on budget DIY motherboards and DIY budget motherboards tended to use lower quality components, and thus the less expensive taiwanese caps with faulty electrolyte. A high quality Intel P4 motherboard of the era, though, was likely to have higher quality components, including japanese caps with the correct formula.

But - here is an interesting observation. Among Dell systems, I saw huge numbers of failures of Corporate and personal desktop PCs that were all clearly traced back to cap failure. But you know what, I just recently retired a Dell high end (dual P3/700) workstation from that era, and I've never lost a Dell *server* that I can think of that can be attributed back to failed caps. And I've worked with a boatload of Dell servers during the last 15 years.

I agree with you, in the larger scope, simply because vendor consolidation makes sense for any kind of organization with any sort of scale. If you're not of that basic scale, you're not really on my professional radar. I know there are a lot of people in the industry out there that make their living at that level - and that the truth of the matter is that if a Dell server costs $2500 they can probably put together a generic white-box DIY server for less than half of that cost, often with better specs. I know that such a DIY machine might give years of reliable use. When you're starving, you take what you can get and you make the best out of it.

But if I had options, I want a name brand and a premium price on my equipment. One that has a top market presence if possible. Really, of the enterprise class server vendors, Dell is basically the DIY white-box vendor in this segment, too. Far cheaper than the competition, and it shows in so many ways.

This is, not surprisingly, one of my arguments on why you put a legitimate commercial OS on your business grade equipment, as well. The logic for one extrapolates well to the other.

I can't speak for the US experience but I have supported thousands of PCs for numerous customers over 25 years in Australia. The "white box" is almost always more expensive than the equivalent brand name PC but offers better build quality, reliability and performance. Brand Name support is slow and expensive. Software licensing is an unrelated issue.

As someone who does sell whitebox desktops and servers I find Erik's position frustrating. My company has been building whiteboxes for over 15 years and we have plenty of boxes that have out lasted the name brands. The difference is in the quality of the parts. We use Intel currently and I don't build servers out of anything other than Intel server parts. As an Intel partner we are able to warranty service comparable to the big guys and sometimes even better. In my experiences with Dell and HP I'm always having to jump through hoops and spend time PROVING that a part is bad before they deal with it.

We've all gotten bit by the capacitor issue even Dell. Some companies handled it better than others. We've don't only assemble servers for our own direct customers, we build them for other consultants.

We were building custom servers for a local software company that deploys software to 911 emergency centers. The owner of the company decided to outsource the hardware to dell instead of dealing with internally. The best metric we got about the quality of our products was from the companies purchasing agent. They were deploying Dell servers in new installs and constantly having to call Dell for repairs. While machines build by us, continued to run without a hitch. Everyone at the company tried to get the boss to stop buying from Dell, because of the problems.

So not every whitebox builder assembles crap computers, not all of us use desktop boards and call it a server.

Erik's position reminds of the furor a few years ago that erupted over the Microsoft credentials. It got to point that suddenly everyone that had any sort of credential was suspect of not earning it.

Broad paint strokes can hurt not only individuals but entire groups. For some reason it seems that a lot of so called "experts" who write columns want to bash whitebox builders. I've see it pop up all the time.

My question is this...If whitebox is so bad for the industry, then why do Microsoft and Intel put so much money into products and programs aimed at that market?

As for his remarks on piracy it has nothing to do with whitebox builders, so don't go there. It has to dollars and companies that don't want to spend the money.

I would NEVER consider a name brand.I've done that once (Apple) and within 3 weeks the product failed.It was a failure well documented in the media.The response was a denial that the product was faulty and my only recourse was legal.
This is why name brands are costly - to support advertising,high margins and an intimidating legal department.
In 30 years of being in the business and using no names boxes I have had 1 power supply die and a couple of hard drives ( I currently run 40 drives) - as well as a "Click" drive. - All after considerable use.Considering "no names" are about half the price of the alternatives I know I am miles ahead.

No more. I did it to save money for very low budget customers. I was the "starving artist" willing do whatever I had to for very low paying jobs.

It's a road to nowhere. Servers are all Poweredge's now. If customer cringe at that, it's a solid indicator the relationship isn't going to work.

I have run into some pretty "bad" product from HP and Dell on occasion especially some of the motherboards being used. Custom builds can incorporate the best of the best. I want my clients to have great working equipment. Saves my time to in chasing problems.

Let's look at the clam shell design Dell used on so many of their systems. Those were a pain in the a$$ to get into and install memory. The slim design models that you have to take apart in layers to add memory. Hard drives that are mounted sideways or vertically, or upside down. Power supplies that have exactly 3 4 pin molex and 1 sata jack. For hp/compaq, T15 or T20 torx head screws!!! Is there something wrong with industry standard Phillips Heads?!?.!!?!

I built a file server running win2k server for my office with help from a friend in the year 2000. It is still running and serving the 5 users it was configured for. I only had to deal with a fried power supply (caused by lightning and a failed UPS) and a replacement for a failed RAID hard drive after about 5 years. Bottom line is it actually saved me a few bucks without too much downside.

Interesting paper but would be careful not to generalise. In the past hardware was pretty much unreliable however advances in technology suggest that "white box" products could be quite powerful. Some branded items have also caused problems especially in mission ciritical installations.

I've been reading TechRepublic for a long time, and I have never seen any article as horribly biased as this one. Custom built computers aren't inherently bad. You get what you pay for on both sides. Years of experience in the industry has shown me the opposite of what you're claiming.

If you build cheap crappy custom machines, you get cheap crappy custom machines. If you buy cheap crappy Dell/IBM/whatever machines, my experience has shown me that these are generally worse than the crappy custom machines. At least the custom machines don't require overpriced proprietary parts that significantly increase the total cost of ownership, and time to repair.

I build custom built computers, and they're much better quality, cheaper to own, and easier to fix than any of the brand name computers out these days. Particularly those new all in one PCs that conjour up memories of the early 90s.

I'm not sure I disagree with your opinion except I can add memory with a lifetime warranty from a vendor I've been dealing with for over twenty years and at a lower cost than Dell or HP. If I can get warranty service like that on other items like raid controllers and motherboards I would be more willing to build white boxes these days. But alas, I've been disappointed with motherboards and power supplies over the years also. I always used to use PC Power & Cooling. Are they even still in business? I always thought that Gigabyte was a class motherboard vendor until I had problems with one of their motherboards, and also ASUS, and most others, and now realize that none of them are as good as I had hoped. HP is so proprietary that they are on my don't buy list right now. I've been impressed by Lenovo recently with even a low end desktop that was a great value.

Would you lump a vendor like SuperMicro in the white box category or not? As near as I can tell they are a solid vendor, but haven't used them yet.

As far as off-shore support I've had it both ways, good and bad. The real problem is how well they are trained and with their understanding of "our" version of English. I've been disappointed with both Dell and HP recently with scripted support without an underlying understanding of the problem I was trying to describe. But I have also had some great support from India, Canada, South Africa, and elsewhere, but I agree that on Server systems and major vendors the support should be within the country where you reside with people who speak the native tongue. In Dell's case I am lucky to have resources available to cut through the channels to get questions answered. HP and Dell also have some good online forums. Spiceworks has the most helpful online forums for almost any system or network question and Spiceworks itself is free with major vendor support from Dell, HP, and others.

Or just a board. I've gone the route of BOTH. I'm in the process of retrofitting OLDER SuperMicro hardware with NEWER motherboards. Try that with HP and Dell servers.

The EATX footprint and multiple mounting screw placement makes the SuperMicro case as easy as using an ANTEC " white box " case.

The Supermicro hardware is a perfect example of NO PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE like the HP gen 1, gen 2 gen 3 and gen 4 products.

My only complaint with the Supermicro MBs is that you have to go liquid cooling in an ANTEC case..;-). It's HARD to get rid of 200 watts of heating power with air cooling, not so hard with the SuperMicro axial flow in the rackmount case...

The reuse of components is also what is wanted when you throw out the word GREEN.

How many HP, Dell and IBM servers/desktops are really GREEN??

Answer: NOT MANY!

( and I am not talking about the latches and component parts inside a Dell )

Ok Erik, if you are going to lump ALL white box systems under the crap category, I will return the mindset. It sounds like Erik is saying that we would be better off using ACER systems in business rather than white boxes. I had to call Acer a couple months ago about a netbook memory upgrade. They say that the systems works with a 2gb stick of memory as long as you aren't running Win 7 starter. I removed the hard drive so OS wasn't a question of working. When I powered on the netbook, no post, no video. I called to find out if there was a bios patch, they just kept saying that because I had Win 7 starter installed on the hard drive that wasn't plugged in, it wasn't going to work. I had to walk them through what happens when a computer boots. I had to do the same thing with Danish Black at HP. Danish was happy to listen that I was well. Yup, great support.

So how about that apology Erik? We won't lump Dell, HP, and IBM under the crap category as long as you don't throw us White box system builders under the bus? Dell and friends have been known to produce garbage systems, there are plenty of white box builders that throw cheap parts in a cheap box and call it a business computer. However, there are a bunch of us that take great pride in our work and find it very offensive when someone writes an article saying what we do is unworthy of being used in a corporate environment.

I've seen success and horror stories from white-box builders and name brand systems alike. Erik, many of your points are very good ones, but you sound like a guy who's frustrated with the bite white-box sellers have taken out of your own business. If white-box systems were all as bad as you claim, there would be no need for you to write an article to explain the obvious to the rest of us.

I disagree with this missive completely.I have been building computers from scratch since about 1976-77. I now build bespoke PC's using mid to high end components. There are certain component manufacturers I refuse to use,after having had some very bad experiences. I segued into this niche market for exactly the opposite reasons you purport, namely the big manufacturers use cheap components, most especially PSU's. From experience putting a high quality PSU in a PC, and it will run for years.Many ones I have to fix , or build a new machine for is the mainboard has blown, most likely due to the PSU.
I very rarely have any returns ( I build quite a few, and I could not name the last time I did) , however on a daily basis I get called to fix machines by the major manufacturers. Cheap cases , cheap components and cheap PSU's , one and all....

regards

Fitvideo
Fitvideo

Having been an IT director and a consultant on and off for quite a while and as someone who has designed and built hardware, my recent (last 5 years) experience has caused me to avoid, HP, Dell IBM. Particularly in the small to medium (under $100M) area.

Issues:
1. Ever increasing support contract costs.
2. Difficultly in ordering non OEM loaded software.
3. Old platform designs.
4. Terrible customer/tech support.

Occasionally, if I can find what I want (depends on the usage) on their sites (Dell, HP), I will recommend one of their units. But for high performance and good value, I find that units assembled by a good non-big 3 manufacturer or one of their resellers can work quite well.

However, when I take that route, I always tell the customer to buy extra unit(s) (depending on the number they employ) so they have directly swappable hardware spares. This usually is more cost effective than the support contracts. I also explain to them the cost versus risk aspects quite thoroughly and offer them the closest thing that the big 3 have with comparable performance specs so they can make an educated decision. I also have them talk with the vendor directly (I don't take a piece of the pie).

I also note that I use this technique mostly for SAN based virtualized environments and have found it to work quite well. I use it for my own professional environment and have units that are still running strong after 7 years. Of course proper maintenance, heat management and cleaning helps a lot with this.

The correct answer is really that it depends on what you need the unit for.
Single app Server, PC or Virtual Host?
Educated user or neophyte?
Big or small/nonexistant budget and staff?
Are you a one man shop or part of a larger organization?

These are all factors in the equation, but the key thing is to always do what is best for the long term interest of the customer so they will be able to stay a customer.

I have deployed Dell computers for projects and this PC's have lasted for more than 5 years on different companies. I don't believe anymore in cloning, it is more expensive and more difficult to keep warranties and licenses. Dell provides all I need in one purchase, are they perfect?, no, but they get the job done most of the time.

Good grief. A CONSULTANT, such as myself, does not play around with off-the-shelf, single-PSU workstations (i.e., PCs) within the business.

That said, if your client asks for a recommendation on non-critical "end-user" machines: More than anything else, it depends on the number of machines. For an "Enterprise" using Windoze, 3-year lease agreements (with site licensing and next day hardware replacement), from Dell, is an attractive recommendation. But, if you're making a recommendation for a small number of computers, then it's best to specify a big-label box -- but STRONGLY, STRONGLY suggest replacement of the el-cheapo PSU's which they come with -- and recommend RAID. Always!

90% of the time, case cooling is also insufficient, and easy to upgrade. STRONGLY, STRONGLY recommend a big, quiet, fan. It takes about 2 minutes.

($20 PSU's with wide swings in voltage AND "flutter" as well, eat motherboards. The cheap motherboards are prone to fail, and the "cheapest per terrabyte" disks WILL NOT!! be Caviar Black. But nearly all computer hardware failures start from the PSU, or from excessive heat.

DO make specific model recommendations. And of course, because you're replacing a couple of parts, be absolutely sure that the model you're recommending doesn't have one of those "warranty void if removed" stickers.

Thank you for the good writeup. It in fact was a amusement account it. Look advanced to more added agreeable from you! However, how could we communicate? http://www.techworldreviews.com

We only purchase high end now. In a I.T. shop with 800+ servers we learned the hard way that we can not build a white box that stacks up to IBM and H.P. servers. Plus IBM's 4 hour response time is critical when your systems must stay up.. It goes back to the old mind-set of, what is the data worth you are storing on your servers? I work in the medical industry and no kidding the buck stops here.. White box's can not perform at the level of my heavy metal box's from IBM!

Think about it... the best thing about Dell is that their service tech will be at your site within 24 hours. The worst thing about Dell is that their service tech will be at your site within 24 hours.

If they just had their systems built with parts from other than the lowest bidder our real costs and TCO would be lower and the work time lost due to their inferior products would be eliminated.

Give me a pure Intel "white box" any time over the brand name systems.