Discussion on:

The interview and answering the no-win question

I've tried every trick that every career councillor has taught me, but my career has been more focused on small to medium companies with a less formal interview infrastructure. So generally the kind of answers described above are met with a look or "just answer the question". At least if you have an answer like those ready it shows you prepared for the interview.

Do you just pick the upper end or something?

I honestly think some of the smaller and/or disorganized companies demand a salary requirement before ANYTHING else because they don't know what to budget for the position. In some cases, companies post a job ad before they intend to do any hiring at all --- just to get a feel for what applicant' expectations are. Weeks or months later, the posting reappears with a salary range indicated --- but not before they've raised many a false hope by calling or emailing early applicants with only one question in mind.

It may seem impossible to dodge a premature discussion of salary requirements but here's what I learned: If you answer the question too soon in all likelihood there will be no further communication. This holds true even when the salary range that is later posted in a subsequent job ad was right in the ballpark of what you indicated to begin with. It just goes to show that you can offer to work for a salary that the company is willing to pay but that still doesn't mean they have any intent to interview you. You can't take any of this personally.

Another approach: "My salary is negotiable depending on benefit level, travel requirements, shift and overtime requirements. Please contact me so that we can discuss your IT needs further."

In larger companies the salary range is set before the job is posted, and conforms to a clasifcication system that has been long established.

If it the question is asked before the interview, it is a screening question. Specifically, if the number is too high, the candidate may not be likely to come down too much, and it isn't worth the time to interview them.

When the same question is asked during an interview, its also a screening question. But the reason to delay the question from the candidate's perspective, is to give the candidate the chance to prove that they deserve to be paid towards the top of the range, because they have something to offer the employer.

When I am asked 'What are you currently on' my answer is always X = (true figure + 10%) to which I will add another 10% to 'tempt' me to move. Which gives me a negotiation point that is 20% higher than my current rate.

Make 20% 21% and at least show you are numerate

Another author making money from unemployed don't-haves offering totally worthless and wrong advice. My usual scenario: Q: What is your salary demand? A: The normal range in this area for that job is agreeable. Q: Either give me a number or this conversation is over!

So either I can give them my number and have a shot at a job or I continue to be unemployed with no income. Hmmm -- I choose door #1.

My best advice: Don't get caught up in the game of whether winning or losing the negotiation; that's a game for blamers and faultfinders. Keep your eye on the main objective: Getting a paycheck! Give them the answers they want to hear, land the job however you can and trust that down the road you can negotiate better terms.

It's not about guessing the right number or even being able to negotiate a better package later. Do you want the job, and if so, what do you want to be paid for your time and effort? Clearly state what you want and if it is doable then you might get a chance at the job. If you need or want too much, or if you are expecting to negotiate later - later probably will never arrive. These are real "false expectations" and you may find yourself in a job you hate or you may be out looking for another job sooner than you thought. Always give yourself credit for what you know and how well you do your job, do a good job for whomever you choose to work for - remember you get to choose too - and enjoy your life. Just state you answer and move on, they certainly will, with or without you.

Negotiating after the fact is not practical advice. Once you are hired into a position and accept a salary it is extremely hard to change it, even after showing your value. Once they have you, they have you. You don't have much leverage for negotiations after you've started working for the company. Sure, you could threaten to leave but they know you probably don't want to start another job search.

To demonstrate the point even further, I've been in positions at several companies and received promotions after having demonstrated my skills and the value I bring to the company. Despite being promoted to positions with greater responsibility, I had a very hard time getting salary increases to go along with the new positions. As a matter of fact, they never did match the salary I would have received had I been hired into that position and negotiated the salary upfront.

If you have a certain salary goal, and it is a reasonable sum for that position, you have try to negotiate as close to that as possible before your employment begins. If you are hired in at a low-ball price, there's almost no chance you'll be able to change it and you'll be unhappy for the duration of your employment with the company.

........You are NOT on index related pay rewards with the usual crap that comes with annual appraisals.....hence why I am an independent Consultant.....oooh the stigma attached to that word "Consultant".......hence why I am in this game.....wolf amongst sheeple.

Sound advice otherwise

In my experience the best plan is to tell people you know what you would like to earn - x. The max of that the job could pay in the market.

Then tell them that you are happy to join at y less than this figure (the low to medium salary point) but only on the basis that after 3-6 months they put you up to x or fire you. It must be a contractual point not a verbal promise. Say you stand by your work and your belief in your worth and that you want to prove this to them at the minimum of risk.

After the time period you are either too valuable to not get the salary you want, or it was time to leave.

Sounds like a risky plan to people, but if you believe you are worth the money it does work and it shows both parties that the risk and reward go hand in hand. What company wants to take someone on who they have to get rid of and go through all the hassle again.

Although I have not had a lot of full time jobs I have used this each time and has appealed to people. Even for the jobs I have decided not to take.

When I'm asked what salary range I'm looking for, I usually ask the interviewer, "What is the salary range the position offers?" Sometimes I've been given a range and reply, "We can work within that easily." But sometimes I've been asked again what salary I want. Trying to turn the question on the interviewer doesn't always work.

How much did this author pay to have his book advertised on Tech Republic as an "article"?

For sale at $9.99 at this location...

My ultimate pet peeve in the job-search process is the ads that DEMAND a salary history or "requirement". First, it's none of their business what I've made in the past. I see this tactic as the HR Dept just being lazy. Second, if the company wants to use the salary they're willing to offer as a criteria for the interview process, then post it in the ad and let job-seekers screen themselves. I don't have a salary "requirement". Tell me what you think the job is worth and let me decide if I want to pursue it.

I know; it was supposed to say your not you. Sorry for the oops. Please don't get on the editor for that - it was MY mistake! I admit it me GreyGeek - you caught me!

My Bad! From 2000s.

If it is a lateral move say moving from one company to another, it will often depend on when the last raise was. If it has been a while since a raise in a lateral move then, I usually take my current salary and boost it by like 5 - 10%, again pending on what they typically start someone out at in the new company, and what the cost of living in that area may be.

If the move would be a promotion with a significant raise already involved, I don't get greedy, I ask for the starting wage of that position, but not before doing research in the type of position etc, to make sure it is a good wage for the job and location. Salary dot com is a good resource for that.

Reality is, do research. Figure out what other people in the area make in the same position, what a position typically starts at, cost of living in that area, and what you are bringing to the table. Don't get greedy, but don't sell yourself short either.

I got asked this question some 12 years ago before I became a Freelance Consultant PM. I answered pretty much via the advice given in this article and I was turned down for the Job. Ironically we became indirectly friends with one of the HR team who said that the Hiring Managers realised you were on top of your game and decided to go with someone who wasn't. (FOOLS in the long term) suffice to say it didn't work out as the person chosen left for a higher salary 6 months on. Irony No2 this Customer came back to me in a position of desperation and used me as a Consultant PM.......and made more in 4 months than they were offering as a Salary. People often play the short game and completely forget the long game.

While advise of putting off revealing numbers or turning it back on them can work when it is a sellers market (there is a shortage of qualified individuals), that advice will not work when it is a buyers market (un-employment > 4-5%). Guess where we are.

You want the job, Give a number or a range based on benefits travel... otherwise there are plenty of others out there that will take almost anything and they aren't going to waste time volleying with you.

... clearly didn't proof-read the article for all the grammar mistakes, so, I can't take it seriously. Do YOUR research, author, then, profess to tell everyone else to do theirs.

what I hate are companies that ask you what you made the last 20 years you have been working in the beginning of the application process. This is another screening tactic. They should be telling me what their salary range is for the hiring of the position. I agree with computer Dave - Tell me what the job is worth (to you) and let me decide if I want to pursue it.

Most companies today just want whoever will work the cheapest. The attitude is "There are hundreds of other people who could do the job so any one of them is disposable."
Management views everyone below them in the food chain to be fungible. Career planning in today's Tea Party "bash the working people" environment is a joke.

You should be able to explain every 'tier' of your salary. That is, the floor means 8 hours, go home and forget about work until tomorrow. The next tier is 8 hours and prepare for the next day. Next up, overtime (of course salaried workers dont get overtime pay right? Right!). Next, is how much of my work depends on me managing the work of others in ANY capacity. That is, how much stress will I have if I take care of my responsibilities but the next guy (could be my boss or a same-level colleague) doesn't meet basic standards. Then there are titles (senior, principle, etc.), and a whole lot of 'value-added' aspects I consider. I tell them up front "Previously I made X when I did this and that. It looks like I will be responsible for this, that, and those for you so MySALARY = Previous Salary + (more time/thought/preparation + greater load on my bag of skills and what thats worth) +/- (lifestyle (travel to and from, and number of factors), company prestige (larger salary at SAP vs. Mom & Pop's Software Kiosk) and other factors)..." Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose and go back to the drawing board.

The key is to know how much you are worth when you are employed, and always keep this in the back of your mind. If you are not employed, than you need to do some research. However, you dont need a book to tell you that...

I disagree with the staement "They know how much additional revenue can be generated by hiring you and what their current budget limitations are". They may know their budget limitations but most companies know they need a Java programmer but have only a vague idea how much that person could add to their bottom line because that is very difficult to estimate.

I work for a large company with salary ranges for various positions but the salary ranges have more to do with past practices and how much the person could earn elsewhere than how much value the positon adds.

What excuses do we have these days for posting articles, blogs, etc. that have multiple spelling errors or bad grammar? IMHO no excuses.
1. "You dont want to go too law than the figure"
2. One seemed to be fixed already as posted by BillM777
Aug 11, 2011 @ 7:36 AM (PDT)
3. "The know the need they have to fill"
Sorry if I seem harsh.

Please send me your resume, I'd like to have someone on my team who never makes mistakes.

J.Ja

I don't know about you, Justin, but I doubt very many of us here are paid editors. I tend to hold people who write for a living to a somewhat higher standard when it comes to the written word, much like the people you support would hold you to a higher standard of computer knowledge.

If this were the 1st time a Tech Republic author had ever erred it would be one thing. But I can't remember the last TR article I read that didn't have at least one spelling error, grammar mistake, or typo. It speaks to the whole world having to do more and more with less and less, all in the name of corporate profits and shareholder value. And that speaks volumes about the current state of the economy in general, and out industry in particular.

ahem..." out industry in particular "

Spotting typos in things is insanely hard, especially when you do it day in and day out. The editors at TechRepublic probably pore over more words per day than a traditional newspaper or book editor, and they do it with tighter timelines too. Furthermore, the computer screen is a lousy medium to proofread on, especially with many of the applications that the writers and editors have to work in. Some of them pick default fonts that make things just blur together, especially if you have been looking at a screen for 8+ hours a day. I know that for myself, by the time I get to work on my articles, my forearms are cramping so badly that I can barely use a mouse. I have things that I have had *four* different people proofread, and I have re-read a number of times myself, and yet there are *still* mistakes in them. Does that make me stupid? Does that mean that the other four people I asked to read them stupid too? Or does it mean that we're human?

Are there lots of articles here with these kinds of mistakes? Sure. I see plenty of articles here where a bunch of folks decide to play tackle football with the writers and the editorial staff. Am I downplaying the important of grammar and spelling? Absolutely not. They are important. They are less important than the content quality itself, though.

You can have all of the standards you want, but the fact is, while the writers at TechRepublic may get paid to write, few of them are "professional writers". They are IT professionals, the same as you. For some of them, English is not their native language. Others may have all sorts of other limitations. I doubt that any of them have degrees in English, Literature, or similar subjects. I think that amongst the writers here, I am probably the closest to that (I double majored in History and Philosophy, and spent a ton of time writing a ton of long-form papers). Getting upset because someone who spends ten hours a day in a server room and then takes the time to share what they've learned with you may be your right, but being nasty about and throwing around this "it hurts your credibility" line is meanspirited at best. Or to put it another way, what would you rather see here? A bunch of English majors with perfect grammar and spelling cranking out inaccurate articles or just quoting press releases and pundits? Or a group of experienced IT professionals who make the occasional mistake?

Here's a suggestion: TechRepublic is *always* open to new writers, last I checked. In fact, I know that we recently put out a call for more writers. Instead of playing armchair quarterback, try out for the team.

J.Ja

Where and how do I apply?

Send an email to Toni, I am sure that she can get you pointed in the right direction. I am not sure which editor handles the queries up front.

J.Ja

JJ: Editing is a challenging job; one that's exacerbated when required to perform the task via electronic format. Hard copy is easier on the eyes, but I'm betting the rate of content and medium used make printing and each page an improbability. --Bob

Can you understand ALL of the points of the article? Sure the credibility of the article comes into question with errors, however this isn't a scientific journal. It is a blog. Sheesh!

I noticed these too. The article isn't long enough to contain so many mistakes.

It is very easy for unprepared employers looking to hire to get fixated on this to the point that they ignore the actual applicants. Employers SHOULD do their homework and find a range, but then they should evaluate each potential employee according to how many of the job skills fit their needs and adjust accordingly. The other thing to do is to structure your pay with incentives for performance and leave the salary at the low end. The performers will merit the incentives, while those just looking to pay the bills will get what they want. This is a tougher road because it means real performance interviews and knowledge of the job in question, but also has a higher upside in potential gains for the employer.

For the applicant, do your homework as well. Get the CPI for the area and compare to the CPI in your current area. Unless you are desperate to leave your current employer or you are unemployed, use the CPI to adjust your salary and add in whatever amount would cause you to move (and cover moving expenses). Make this your bottom line figure and don't negotiate past that without forcing the company to give up guarantees as compensation. Don't forget to find out what benefits they offer, as a plan that includes employer-sponsored healthcare, dental, and vision is more valuable than one that doesn't by a long shot. Make sure to consider the whole package.

If you researched salaries in your area then you will know the pay range. An important consideration is the ratio between what the pay is and how much the business makes on your work; rule of thumb is 1:3. If you think of yourself as a revenue generator for your employer, then you will understand that 2/3rds of that revenue pays for logistical support, HR and administration. If you want $100K job then you need to produce $300K of value (not just money) to your employer. If you can produce even higher value then you will be able to get better raises and perks. If an employer offers a job that is closer to 1:2 then the job may not be stable, the business decision may not be well thought out or the job is very temporary.

An important consideration is understanding that you are trading major parts of your life span for money. Don't waste your life doing things you do not want or like for any amount of money.

Money isn't the only element of compensation - I've always considered things like vacation time and other perks as a part of the package. If you go to work for a company that offers discounts to employees on services, that's a perk that may have more or less value for you. If you can get another week of vacation in a deal - don't write it off - I would gladly take another week of vacation in lieu of salary. What about work-from-home or flexible hours - definitely some value there. On the other hand, "bonuses" are a wildcard and you shouldn't count on them when you're looking at your necessities budget.

Being flexible is important - always consider the entire package before you get stuck on salary.

If you aren't totally satisfied with the initial salary or overall package, then definitely establish a plan up front for progression - whether that's a title, a raise or additional benefits/perks - if you get those things out on the table in the beginning nobody will be surprised when you bring them up when the time is due. I walked out on a company one time because they refused to follow-through on a comittment for a promotion after I had held up my end of the bargain to everyone's satisfaction.

Once you come to an agreement and start working at a company, it is much more difficult to renegotiate your position - especially if you haven't indicated your desire for progress in the beginning.

I also don't know why anyone would spend $10 on a book that can be summarized by the comments (even so far) on this article.

In my experience the best answer to this is to answer in a range, saying it is dependant on the benefits package and other factors. The employer won't weed you out and won't be ready to discuss benefits yet (and if they are it is a buy sign).

You really need to do some soul searching and come up with a real answer in your head in order to determine the range. Pick an absolute Low, and a realistic best-case scenario High, and pick a range a bit narrower. If the range you give weeds you out, then that job was not going to fit your requirements anyway -- you don't have to take anything that comes your way. (if you are desperate then your absolute low in your head is still too high and you need to set your sights lower)

If they ask the question right off the bat, then it is being used as a weed-out question. Hopefully answering with a range will do.

If they ask it later on in the process -- 2nd or 3rd round interview - then it is a buy signal. You can still answer with a range, but narrow it even further, or come up with a buy signal of your own: "Salary is only one of the factors that I am looking for in a company. You've given me a good description of the postion and I really want to come here."

It's very simple, playing games is the wrong way to start a relationship. I just lay it out very simply: "I believe that this position as you described is worth $X at a minimum. I feel that with my experience and skills, that I should be paid around $Y. No matter what, I absolutely cannot afford to go below $Z." Yes, I tell them by minimum number up front. Why? So they know if they are going to be wasting my time or not. If they ask the reason behind them, I tell them. It could be that it is my current salary and I can't take a paycut. Maybe I love the new job so much I'd be willing to take a paycut. Perhaps it involves a much longer commute so I need a bit of a raise just to be breaking even. Or the local market for this job is really strong and anything less would be grossly underpaid.

It doesn't matter where the number comes from. But I've found that putting it on the table up front makes life easy for all of us. It shows them that I am negotiating in good faith. If they cannot offer me anything less than that, they know they it's not going to work out. They also know what I really want, and they will know that if they chisel me on it, how I'll feel. Even when I come in below what they had in mind, they usually offer the higher number anyways, it's seemed.

Something I've seen time and time again, are people who think that they are really great and demand a much higher salary than what was going to be offered. These people usually think that they "won" somehow, but they are wrong. For one thing, it sets unrealistic expectations on the new worker... they are getting paid top dollar (or beyond top dollar) and much fewer people warrant it than think they do. And pushing for too much up front leaves them with no wiggle room for raises and bonuses in the future, especially when working at a company that uses a "pay band" system. Obviously, it's better for you financially to get paid more from the beginning, but after a few years of no raises or minimal raises, you start to get annoyed.

Finally, pushing hard on the salary issue often puts a sour taste in people's mouths about you. I've seen this a number of times, where someone really was a hardcase about the salary (often for only a few thousand dollars a year), and while actual numbers were never discussed, the team knew that this person really was stubborn and got paid much better than the rest of the team. In one circumstance, one such person actually bragged about it on their very first day on the job! Needless to say, the rest of the team looked at this person really differently, especially when they turned out to be no better than anyone else on the team.

J.Ja