Discussion on:

Linux design needs to be out of the hands of developers

About 13 years ago I received one of the most useful project review comments I've seen:
"Your biggest problem is you can't understand how the users can fail to understand."
This was when I was first beginning to develop Enterprise Web Applications.
The problem was that since I was close to the product, and knew all of the ins and outs of how it worked and why, and my general testing users were also used to the way I worked and the product, they had no problem handling the applications, and loved the way the applications worked, yet we were getting less than glowing reviews for the front end not being intuitive enough for new users.
This was solved by moving the UI design review process back to the first draft stage and getting feedback all along the way from completely new users, as well as bug/feature checks by the experienced users, and really (really, really) paying attention to the feedback from the ones who didn't like the product as well as those who did.
UI developers need to listen to the people who don't like the look/feel/functions more than the people who do like it, or else get used to only having the fan base users enjoying their products.

I've been using systems of various types since 1968, when I took a course in COBOL while in high school. I am not an IT pro, just a user. But I know about 30 languages. I have developed some projects in LaTeX and emacs. Open source is an interesting idea, but I think that in the long run it is seriously problematic. I am going more and more to the idea that only commercial products are acceptable. 1) There is no support in open-source - I myself have not been responsive to problems in my little tool, and this is pervasive. 2) Interfaces SUCK 3) Stallman-centric GNU stuff is run by EXTREMELY arrogant jerks - try to figure out how to download gnu-emacs. There is no netinstaller, and it's like an IQ test to figure out how to get the f***king product. 4) Many products are aging, and there is no succession plan. For my little product, I have no idea who might be interested in maintaining it, since it is a very niche product in an area that is becoming totally obsolete, so I think that when I lose interest, it will expire. 5) I used to get excited at a new product, but now I know what installing a new product means - an endless succession of supporting products need to be installed, and each of them requires others supporting tools. Installing one simple tool might take 15 hours, between the installs of this and that, the requirements to get new unencryption and archiving tools, and so forth. Plus many of the tools have very inconsistent degrees of flexibility - some tools can adapt to my directory structure, others cannot.

In conclusion, I have after 30 years grave doubts about the open source approach.

Just to address your points:
1. There is support in open source. You have to pay for it like you do with M$ or Apple. The difference is that it's much cheaper in open source.
2. The interfaces are not much different than Apple or MS. As a matter of fact the new Unity interface has quite a few similarities with Mac OSX.
3. I had one bad experience with a Perl forum where I submitted a question about some code I wrote and got my hair promptly removed by the blast of hot air from their responses about how it was stupid and could have been done better even after I told them it was my first attempt and to give constructive criticism. But, haven't had that problem since in all the time I have been using Linux.
4. I agree with this. Up to now there has been no motivation for free software authors to continue their work and would just let it die. But, Ubuntu has done a great thing by creating a venue for developers to sell their product and to provide reviews by people that have used it. I think this problem will fade away as more developers use the online store approach. Also, if they want to sell their products they'll bump the quality unless they want a bunch of bad reviews.
5. Don't know about the other products but this was my first experience with Suse Linux about 10 years ago. Things have changed now with Ubuntu's (and probably other distros) package managers. They resolve all dependencies and install everything that is needed. They still need to get completely away from things like proprietary drivers that cause you to have to re-install them every time you get a kernel update. Still, there may be issues from time to time when conflicts occur of knowing what to do. You don't know if it should replace a library or keep it and you shouldn't have to know.
Generally, things are improving but they still have a ways to go in order to be as usable by the average Joe user as the other OSes.

IMHO the interfaces are very different.
I can even tell the difference between propietary interfaces like MS and Apple, the second one always looks more polished and ergonomic. I'm sure Apple runs their interfaces through endless tests with actual users, from different fields of expertise. MS probably does the same but to a lesser degree.
The open source interfaces, on the other hand, are created based on developer's opinions and let's face it, some of them are square-heads.
What could look as a great interface to a software developer, may look cumbersome and unintuitive to an architect, a designer, a doctor, you name it.

http://www.gnu.org/software/windowmaker/
Here is what we do when we forget there are geeks allowed among the linux or unix establishment.

I've been on Windowmaker for 8 years now. It really is all the desktop I need. It has features other window managers are now getting to. It is easily customized. It has not been updated in years, and is essentially abandoned, but then, it's an interface which doesn't change! So for you old farts out there like me who want a fast, very usable windowing interface that is stable, this is a great choice.

I haven't been using WindowMaker for eight years, but I started using it about eight years ago. I stopped about six or seven years ago, I think. It's pretty nice for what it is, but I gradually found myself gravitating in another direction. These days, I use i3 instead.

To this moment i thought Linux was misunderstood by the general user, but now i can see the problem. Is all about the way we geeks or nerds think, sometimes we assume way to much and that is the big problem. This have to be revised and supervised by the various organization involved and supporting linux. If this is not solved linux will have a low growing rate and will never be the freedom os that every linux user wants to share with the world.

Let me start this by saying I use Linux. Not as my main platform, but all my computers are dual boot Win7/Linux. The biggest problem facing Linux is the attitude that 'if you use Linux, you know what you are doing'.

I hear countless Linux users say year in and year out, 'this is the year of Linux'. And, it never is. Why? Because in order for Linux to take off, it has to be open to people who don't know what they are doing. I have read countless books, articles, tutorials, and the vast majority do the same thing. For Windows and Mac, they give step-by-step instructions including screen shots, for Linux, they usually say something like 'you know the drill', and give no instructions. It was extremely difficult when I was trying to learn Linux. No, I DON'T know the drill! Tell me what to do!

And that is really the crux of the problem. It will NEVER be the 'year of Linux' until they come down from their high-horse and start letting 'average' users into the club.

I have been using Linux since 2002 and until now I depend of Windows for several tasks (obviously I used both) Apple and Microsoft make their software for ANY user (young, old, new, advanced and the most important thing: for many countries and languages). I??m Mexican and I don??t speak or read or write well in English but at least I try to express my oppinion; perhaps 90% of my fellow countryman and countrywoman don??t speak English or (worst) they don??t care about this issue. Manny people of my country used to have Windows (pirated) and don??t pay a dime for software, so perhaps you could ask: why they don??t use Open Source Software? because they don??t understand it, if there is very difficult for people who reads and speak English, can you imagine the problem for those who do not? I really hope that somebody understand and can help with this ??cause I like Linux and open source very much. Happy new year for every body!!!

I have read that Linux is hip in Brazil. Maybe you should get a distribution from them. Portuguese should be close enough to Spanish for you to read better than reading English.

As someone of Latin (Roman) ancestry, I can tell you that Spanish and Portuguese are as close as English is to Danish (which, btw, is one of the linguistic foundations of English through Old Est Norse language, together with French spoken by the Normands long ago, and others).
Or, to say it otherwise, is as different as MS Windows is to Linux.
So, I invite you to try learning something unknown in,... let's say ... Danish.

So, this is where the Linux arrogance is coming from, actually. No support in Spanish? No problemo. There is plenty written in Chinese.
You still don't know how to compile a kernel only for installing a wireless card with the only objective of browsing the Internet? "Than you have IQ problems, dude" would be the mainstream answer in Linux world.

But, no. Linux doesn't suffer by arrogance mainly. They actually don't have anyone to kick their a--es when they make mistakes or take bad decisions. And, the arrogance come to second place when they actually don't care about the users' opinions.

So, to resume, learn Danish, man. You may need it for a couple of libraries in Linux.

Wow! I was surprised to read that. Being a resident of Arizona, EVERYTHING here is in English AND Spanish. Goes to show how much we assume! As long as it takes Ubuntu to load and install the Language Packs, you would think that Spanish was included?! (or are we talking about support forums/documentation?)

Have you tried Google Translate as a 'bandaid' for the lack of Spanish support? Obviously, it doesn't negate any lack of native support for your language, but maybe it would help until the Linux community wakes up to your needs.

So why don't you join the club? Get off *your* high horse and join your local Linux User Group. These groups generally consist of people from all walks of life that shares Linux as a passion, and they are incredibly helpful. This is the secret behind all things open source - it's not just the developers (yes, some of them can certainly be arrogant, but that is really besides the point), it is the community. If you cannot find a local LUG, chances are really good you will find some online resource by doing some judicious Googling. Don't know the drill? Try to Google for your problem (in words), and add a "+ HOWTO" behind it. Scroll down the list and find your step-by-step instructions. Yes, I am arrogantly confident that you will in actual fact find what you need with a proper search within less than 10 minutes. Or don't you know how to Google? C'mon dude, you know the drill!

His point was Linux has no "PRIMARY' source for support.

Most users don't have the time or the inclination to join a User Group. They don't want to be part of a "club," or become active in a "community." They don't have a "passion." They want to use their computers to get things done, be they important tasks or trivial ones.

Your statements all illustrate the exact problem adimauro was describing: so long as Linux is something you have to learn, it's highly unlikely it will become popular, and the blindness of Linux advocates is that they just don't get this.

Yes, it's irritating and depressing for those of us who do put in the time to learn about such things, and there's no doubt this Fabulous World of Tomorrow That We're Living In would be far better off if people didn't think of their computers the same way they think of their cars. But the reality is that the learning curve for most Linux is too steep. There needs to be a distro of Linux that a typical American can learn to use without having to read an instruction manual for. Sadly, I don't think Linux will take off until that happens. The question right now seems to be, can Ubuntu be that distro?

I've been trying various Linux distributions for over ten years. I have checked the forums when I run into a problem. Sometimes I even find an answer to my problem. But Linux nerds excel in tech speak. I've rarely been able to understand a Man page because they are written for technical people and not for the casual user who's just trying to get his sound card to work. I've tried six different live distributions on my Acer laptop and not one of these distributions was able to configure WiFi to my Netgear router. And none of the six distribution's help pages were able to explain how I could configure the link. Actually, Netgear even has Linux drivers that I could use if I want to go ahead and install the software. But I was just interested in doing a test drive to see what feature I like on the different distributions. Knoppix does allow the user to store a profile on the Windows hard drive. So I may try doing that so that I can use the CD Rom reader to install the Netgear drivers. Oh well...

I used to use a linux chat room and the common response to requests for help was "RTFM". After googling that acronym, I opened a technical manual with about 20 pages then booted back into windows.

I eventually did get my second monitor working but it took far too long. I don't want to Invest time learning how to make things work in an OS. The knowledge expires too fast.

The issue is probably one of training. Few colleges do this. Most of them do M$. As for government & business, they have cut training, to save the salaries of their top echelons. So until new-style community companies embrace Linux & get some low-cost training under way, the argumentation will simply go on, round & round the houses, fruitlessly

Les

In a few hours, there will be a stack of posts on the relative superiority of GOME, GTK, and several other desktops and an equal number of posts on why (insert name here) sucks and should be banished. It gets tiring. If you want to move Linux to mainstream, understand that GETTING TO MY STUFF is all that matters to the end user.

I don't care what mp3 player I use as long as I can connect to my phone and load music or burn CDs for the car. I don't care what Office app I use as long as I can find the commands I need and share files with the windows world. I want to be able to change my wallpaper and put icons where I want them and have it all work.

Therefore, work on it. I will bet your daughter couldn't tell you what desktop she is running on a bet. But she would let you know in a heart beat if it lost her bookmarks and homework.

I have always said that you get a bunch of tech guys together to design something and what do you get -- something that only they can use. It's almost impossible to get techies to see the end user's perspective.
Case in point -- Steve Jobs is not a techie and he understood how to design an interface that would work for the masses for the computer, the tablet and the phone. The majority of non-techies use these devices everyday. Put them in the hands of techies and they complain about not having enough control, being locked in, etc. Which is why Android is made for techies. Although they are locked in as well to Google's eco system they feel like they have a little control over which phone they can buy and can put their own flavor of the OS on it.
So, thank you Jack for bringing that point out.

Sorry Jack, but I believe you missed the mark here as badly as the new desktop developers. First, I am a baby boomer, and change really doesn't bother me. What bothers me is poorly designed half baked products. What the real problem is is that the developers have little direction and spend way too much time wanting to be like Apple or Microsoft and trying to change a desktop operating system user interface into a smart phone user interface. Which make little to no sense. I have tried both of these new desktop interfaces, Gnome 3 and Unity, and both are seriously flawed from a desktop user interface perspective. When you change a simple one or two click process to launch an application into a fiasco, it's not called CHANGE or PROGRESS, it's called poor user interface design.

I have been using Linux for several years now and support it in our Christian school in both thin-client LTSP and regular desktop deployments. However, I have become very frustrated with Linux on the desktop due to it's instability and lack of printer support. Now these latest desktops are bloated, unstable, and are not really user friendly. I find Windows 7 to be far more intuitive and just works. Most of my users don't like Ubuntu due to these issues, and probably the CHANGE issues and would prefer Windows XP, which I have installed on several desktops. If money and supporting the evil empire were no object, then I would switch all the users to Windows.

Microsoft made this same mistake several years ago when they introduced Vista, which was never really supported by businesses and if businesses don't buy into it, then it will have very limited success. Remember Microsoft ME and Bob? Linux is killing their desktop success and will soon be relegated to server use only in businesses.

You are the exception, not the rule. Most people our age hate change. I even experience 20 and 30 somethings that hate change. So, he is absolutely correct in his assessment of the masses not the few and far between.
I disagree with your assessment of Unity as well. I think it's headed in the right direction but it isn't absolutely perfect. Nothing is. But things have been simplified for the most part. I can't say for sure but I think they're trying to use the best of Windows and OSX to try to come up with the ultimate interface. Not a bad approach if they are doing this. I see a lot of similarities with Unity and OSX.
I don't know what your definition of limited success is but Apple has done pretty well and they still aren't accepted into the enterprise for the most part.
It would probably be a lot better if the developers would announce their intentions and try to let people understand what they were thinking. But since we really don't know what they were thinking then maybe we're missing out on some critical info that would help us understand why they are doing some of the things they are doing.

I think much of not being accepted has been Apple's own corporate culture towards enterprise customers. osX server didn't seem to get Apple's full effort as a network keystone like a Windows domain server. Iphone had how many generations before proper Exchange connectivity turned up? I don't think Apple truly went after the enterprise market or hasn't recently.

They seem to ship consumer products that can be used in enterprise environments (if the CEO says "make my new toy work") rather than an enterprise product that can also be used by consumers.

LTSP and desktop setups for a school sound like a good start but stability issues are probably much less welcome. What distribution are you using that gives you such instability?

Debian stable is still on Gnome 2.x, which is quite nice. This computer I am typing on is connected to a Windows network and I print directly to the network printer, a Brother laser printer. I downloaded the, I think, ppd file and used CUPS to set it up - no problem. If you want to you can even do a minimal install. Search Google for Debian minimal install. However, I'd go with this: (http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=61221)

Updates are really simple, and if you set your sources to, e.g. stable, you'll have a rolling distribution in which you never have to reinstall (or do a version update) if a new major version comes out - like going from Vista to Windows 7.

The other thing is, Debian is rock solid. I also have Mint installed on this machine, but stopped using it after a while. Yes, it looks much nicer than Debian, but looks are not everything. If you teach the kids at your school to value function above form you'll have done them a big favour.

And yes, change is bad. Improvement is good.

http://www.watchcartoononline.com/the-simpsons-episode-215-oh-brother-where-art-thou

Let the user develop the desktop... right.

Greed is still out there. It's worse now than it was in the 90's. Just an FYI but there's a lot of average Joe users that are adopting Linux. I gave a user an Ubuntu system after they caught a bug on a social site and they don't want to go back to Windows now.
You are correct, people don't want numerous interfaces but realistically, unless you go with a specific eco system like Apple, you're not going to get that. Nope, Linux Desktop is not over. It's catching on...

Seriously dude, open source (Linux) is every where, if you think that it's dead just have a look around at all the devices and what runs the internet! Also Linux is Linux, are all the different versions of "Windows" different [sic] "OSes", no they are not, and neither is a different flavour of Linux!

Unbelievable. In this context, it's "its", not "it's". Also: "death throws". Just unbelievable.

Another indication why, and how this country is going down the tubes.

Want some tarter sauce with your red herring?

I think that's actually a spontaneous loss of tolerance for the rapidly decaying state of literacy amongst the supposedly educated.

because demonstrating good grammar is the pinnacle of high society quaff quaff quaff- HE-HAW

you do realize that there is also internet outside of your precious country? that non English speaking people are reading (and commenting on) this site?

It's possible pauldoyle98 was just trying to avoid speaking for other countries.

I'm soory you're country is going down the toobes but I'm not from the the US and my spelling mistakes are really no indication of how you're is preforming.
why not climb down of the moral high ground and make a comment in the context of the conversation.

also I've made some grammatical errors in the passage above- give yourself a big hug if you spotted them

Should I call a WAAAAAAAMBulance. Spelling Nazi

It's everywhere on servers, not desktops (which don't run the internet). I'm redhat certified and I know the uses of Linux. comparing every Linux distro as another wildly anticipated much improved version is just incorrect.
[sic] are all the different version of Windows different 'OSes' ..ummmm...YES apart from the name 'Windows'
if the different flavours of Linux are all the same operating system One has to ask WTF is the point then?
Ubuntu is fine as a single user desktop - that's it

I think he means it's getting so bad, that even DEATH throws up!

Q: are all the different versions of "Windows" different [sic] "OSes"

A: Yes, they are.

Linux desktop usage is higher right now than it's ever been in the past. That doesn't mean that it's on the verge of being mainstream, but it's certainly far from over. It doesn't ever have to become mainstream to continue to be successful.

Linux is probably closer to being one operating system that controls all your devices than any other system, though that's not saying that much.

Do you think corporate greed is over? Do you think we could make any headway against corporate lock-in without open source and systems like Linux and the BSD systems?

I for one am glad that we still have the ability to install whatever system we want on x86 machines. I am glad that things like the BeagleBoard, the PandaBoard, and Raspberry Pi exist. The freedom of open source isn't about never using mainstream products. It's about not being forced to use them for everything. It's about being able to go in the direction that your interest and imagination takes you. The freedom of open source isn't just for the people who program or tinker with devices like this. It's also for the mainstream that is influenced by them later.

Windows wouldn't be as good as it is today without open source operating systems, and Mac OS X probably wouldn't even exist.

Linux desktop has only a 2.9% share of operating systems being used. Higher than ever? That's not saying much. I love how you clowns love saying it's "higher than ever" or "the Linux share is up 61%". Yea 61% of 2%. Far from over? It hasn't even made a dent yet.