Discussion on:

Android fragmentation is real

I've been using Android for over a year now.
The only people mentioning so-called fragmentation are bloggers, and those whom the bloggers get fired up about updates.

Are you a developer? If you were, I am sure you'd be on the other side of this argument.

Are you a developer? Let's see some credentials since you want to speak for all developers.

I'm developing an application for Android right now and it's not a big deal. Unless you want to use a specific feature such as bluetooth or front facing camera in your app you just develop it for the oldest possible version and it will work with all the newer ones.

I believe what he's saying is that if you're using Android... don't mess around with what works. Don't tweak. Don't update. Stay away from adding to or taking away from what works.

I learned the hard way. The only way my phone does what it's supposed to is if I leave it alone and let it do what HTC wants it to do.

Same thing here. If a manufacturer ships a device with their flavor of Android you are better off with it that way. I tried lots of custom ROMs and tweaks on my Droid Incredible, after which I always go back to the stock HTC Sense ROM it came with. Tweaking sometimes brings out the demons better left alone in Android devices. I am very happy with my HTC Sense stock ROM; it's not worth the tweaks.

The nice thing is that the HTCinc is generally a solid phone. I've got it on Stock ROM with a new launcher, as well as half root with r-on. the "demos" you talk of, are they really a product of tweaking? Or are they a product of you not knowing what you're doing and just screwing around until you get frustrated and just return to stock rom? I'm not being a jerk, I'm actually asking the question.

And you're okay with HTC owning your phone? You pay for the phone, you pay for the data, minutes and texts, but you don't own or control anything on the phone? That seems pretty illogical to me - I own my phone and the data on it which means I get to do whatever I want to it, regardless of what HTC "wants" to do. I'm not saying that you should root your phone and put a different ROM on it, but I am saying that when you buy the phone, it should damn well work for the amount I'm paying every month.

I feel like you do, to an extent. I have a 1st gen droid by Moto, and verizon. I dont have v-cast or any of the V-crap. My phone has had 4 OS updates and so far is still able to download apps from everywhere and play my music collection that I own. Uses Google Nav, and the droid marketplace, plus google apps, plus amazon apps, plus on & on & on!! I would root the phone in a heartbeat if I felt the slightest bit APPLEIZED. But I don't and so, unless the newer versions of android or manufacturer/carrier crap-ware had me trapped I would be fine! What choices do the users of other OSs have again? Oh, yeah! NONE....thats right... This OS is the closest thing to freedom in the handset world. It will not die from "fragmentation". because what he calls fragmentation, we android buyers call choice! 16 gig of ram and a dual-core CPU is the same everywhere. Whats different are the carriers and manufacturers. Their fragmenting of the OS is called choice, moving from one to another is called choice without being charged $1.35 for a song with limited use, that costs $.20 on the CD and has NO DRM and can be put on 25 devices if I choose.

I will never go apple due mainly to the reasons above.

I have this discussion about Android all the time. And it seems for now the Android users are ok, with having out of date software. That's surprising to me since some of the apps in the market are written for particular versions and they possibly wouldnt have access to the latest and greatest. My take on it...if I am paying as mush as I am for my phone...it better be up-to-date and let me do what I wanna do. (Even if I dont wanna do it, I still think I want the opportunity.) Android in my opinion is a cow...that all the phone manufacturers cant wait to cut up and try to make thier perfect burger.

@Marc Garza. I'm just curious why you think the OS is outdated? My 1st gen MOTO droid was 2 years old in November of last year. The OS has been updated 4 times, the last was about 9 months ago now. (shipped with 2.1, currently 2.2.3) There is not one app or feature that I have found that my phone can't run. Some are slow, but maybe thats 96 meg of onboard and a 650 mhz CPU, and not an OS issue? In the non-fruit flavored handset world I dont see the same drive to make products obsolete and non backward compatible that I see with Apple hardware and software. Perhaps you meant Apple and not Android? Can you name something besides 4-g LTE or a rear facing camera that my moto-droid can not do? I have unlimited data as long as I don't upgrade too. And besides 4gLTE, not a single viable reason to do so.

In terms of fragmentation, Amazon is probably the only company to do it right. When they took Google's Android and modified it, they didn't keep claiming it was Google Android. They represent the device as Kindle Fire not Kindle Fire Android Tablet. They provided there own repositories for updates, add-on applications and content rather than piggy-backing on Google's repositories.

In other similar OS circles, this is clearly a child fork properly seporated from the parent distribution rather than a modified version represented as the original.

I do agree with fragmentation in general though. Too many vendors shipping a modified one-off product claiming to be the original. Too many devices shipping with out of date software. An older major version is fine provided it continues to get updates; this is not the case with devices shipping older major versions that will never get patches let alone updated firmware versions.

At least the Nexus devices get stock Android and prompt updates even when they don't get major version upgrades. Outside of the Nexus line and one vendor who truly differentiated by going it alone when they shipped a child fork; the OS is a mess.

Wanted a squeezebox app on my wife's fire.... not on amazons market.
Still I'll take the discontinuity of Android to a locked in iTunes land any day.

And not be able to fix serious issues with patches unless you're technical enough to do them yourself? Great for techies, sucks for the majority!

Whats actually nice about the rooting/DEV community, is that they perfect the process and simplify it if you wait. Then it's easy and foolproof. Have never seen the OEMs put in that kind of effort. Had to call tech support to remove a Verizon update once because they rushed it out. The free man has nothing to loose, the Carrier man will rush out a patch before it's ready to save face...... and not be accused of innaction!

is terribly slow and resource heavy... not to mention buggy (since the last time I used it) so I would say I agree with you. I'd take Android freedom over iTunes jail any day.

Care to know how many times I lost the majority of my music from my collection because I ripped it from CD? JUST ONE TIME! My iPod syncs to windows media, and my music is mine. If my hard drive crashes I dont get told to S____ MYSELF by tech support. I just get my stuff Back, recovered from my iPod with no registration, phone calls, questions, authorizing machines, authorizing devices!!!!! How about paying $0.15 a song with no DRM and its legal? Bet you cant recover these songs either if you put them into iTunes! Recover them from my iPod even if I build a new machine! Freedom, and Choices. That's why Android will not die as expected. But what keeps Apple above water? Oh, sorry.... thats not polite to discuss. But I do think he was the main reason.

Go read this, then come back and tell me about how bad Android is.
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/doityourself-it-guy/ask-jack-iphone-email-client-replacement/1261?tag=nl.e101
I'll take Android 'fragmentation' any day over iPhone inflexibility.

... that one person represents all iPhone users. Sorry, 1 out of 100 Million users is not a majority in any sense of the word. For all of the iPhone's "inflexibility", the return rates for all causes are less than 2%. For all of Android's so-called flexibility, the return rate varies anywhere from 5% to over 10% with some brands and models. The major reason for such high return rates is that the users screw them up with their ignorance about how to use such a high-level (meaning user-configurable) operating system--a problem only fixed by education of which most users are too lazy to complete.

Somebody claiming to know why Android phones are returned, with no references to back them up.

Just ask Motorola, HTC and most of the blogosphere.

You made the claim - its not up to me to research it for you. If you really did ask Motorola and HTC as you claim, where's the quotes?
And the blogosphere? LOL - opinions are not facts!

... You're overlooking the carrier reports of higher-than-average returns of certain brands/models of Android phones while the iPhone carries lower-than-average return rates. You're also willingly overlooking the fact that HTC and Android sales in general fell below the iPhone over the holiday quarter.

Keep blinding yourselves to facts.

And I asked for references.
You still haven't provided any.
Do you speak english?
Blinding yourself to basic logic doesn't help.

Does The Woz's opinion carry any weight in your circles? He's been in the news recently. (granted, I think his engineering based analysis is probably more balanced than it's being represented by the "Woz slams Iphone" headlines)

He never slammed the iPhone, but I will. I like the variety of versions to the Androids being offered and the fact that for as little as $0.00, and a $9.00 monthly data plan you can move into the smartphone fray. And Apple offers what at that level? Oh forgot, nadda.

Forgotten in the discussion of fragmentation is that the MacOS and by extension the iOS ecosphere are forks of the Unix world which has also been highly fragmented. By forking it once again to create MacOS and tightly controlling their branch Apple has created their own little golden castle. This is exactly the game that Amazon is attempting with the Kindle Fire and to a lesser extent B&N with the Nook. The question is if either of them will be able to create the kind of differentiation that Apple has. I can see this (over the next 3-5 years) coming down to 4 players; Apple iOS, Motorola Android, Amazon Kindle, and Nokia Windows Phone (or whatever they call it these days). The other companies won't disappear but they will be all playing the low price game like netbooks today.

In the Unix world, seporate distributions have represented themselves as indaviduals. AT&T Unix did not claim to be AIX Unix. In the Linux based distro sub-set, Red Hat Enterprise does not claim to be SUSE; they are seporate products from seporate companies.

In the Android world, we have several seporate companies claiming to ship Android while making vendor specific customizations that introduce incompatibility between devices. We also have significant fragmentation introduced by those third party vendors not shipping update patches or upgrade firmware keepign devices in line with the current major version of Android.

If the vendors where honest about shipping child forks of Android, they would do represetn them as "ourOS based on AndroidOS" and provide there own software and content repositories along with timely updates and such.

UNIX is not a product (although such trademark exists) it is rather a concept or design technology.

Different UNIX flavors have made different design choices and except where there are specific emulation layers/APIs involved they are no application compatible. They are not even source code compatible.
For example, you cannot run an MacOS application on any Linux version, although both are "UNIX",simply because the neccesary API to run the application does not exist in Linux.
Another example: You can run most Linux software in FreeBSD, because FreeBSD has Linux compatibility API.

I agree with you otherwise, but the problem is that Google has made false claims. Those claims promise that any Android device will run any Android application (as long as the API level is sufficient) -- which is not exactly happening. I can see how in the not very distant future, many applications might become even more incompatible, because they were designed for vastly different form-factor and resolution.

Android applications of course can be made compatible and all this avoided, but at a cost. Google will have to adopt the Apple model for software development, where no application that goes public can avoid using the official APIs and that the OS will have to take over application behavior -- as this will provide both consistent UI and responsiveness.

Oh, I agree. My error may have been refering to the different Unix distributions.

The distribution based on the standard is a product in my view; produced by distinctly seporate companies with different target customers and development goals and so on. The different Unix distributions are the same as the different BSD and Linux based distributions. I can't really see that as fragmentation any more than having two or more toothpaste tubes on the store shelf is fragmentation.

Google's claims is bang on where I'm at too. There is just too much incompatibilities introduced by the device vendors' child forks of Android conflicting with the claim that if it's branded "Android" then it will work with any Android app.

I hope Google will rangle proper control over the parent distribution and make vendors ship more vanilla installs that get prompt updates from the parent distro. Make the vendors work with Google to get hardware support into the kernel where it belongs or have them provide a mini-firmware driver bundle that flashes to the device along side stock android.

Failing that, make vendors clearly represent and support there one-off customizations as proper child fork distributions like Amazon does.

Until then, my selection of potential future Android devices will remain Nexus or nothing. I want Android not HTC-OS based on Android and I want proper update/patch reciept.

I also agree that Google should exercise more control over the app repositories. Not to the degree of Apple's ham-fisted and half effective policies (good for look/feel, inaffective regarding security claims). I'd love to see them move to a two or three stage repository like Nokia did with Maemo and a number of the major Linux based distros do:

- unstable apps (wild west early postings of developer projects)
- testing (stable'ish but not yet proven production ready and non-malicious)
- stable (production ready, vetted and trusted as much as it can be)

there still may be stuff that gets through but there would be much less of it at least. And those who chose to do so could still add/enable testing and unstable applications with informed concent.

There are solutions. Android could be far greater than it already is. I just hope it gets there by the time my current handset kicks the bucket (or one of the alternatives breaks out of the lab).

I'll still miss having Maemo almost directly based off Debian but one is always limited to what is available at the time of purchase.

We may argue points on occasion (OK, frequently) but you make a very clear statement here that I can agree with. I don't hate Android for being Android, I hate it for what it has become on so many different levels. Just like there are good (and bad) Windows PCs, there are good (and bad) Android phones--for many of the same reasons.

Please enable the sarcasm font before reading. OOOOHHHHH, you mean like way every OEM manufacturer overlays and bloats windows with it's own crap-ware then disabls the shortcut to the built in windows app that already does the same thing?? You are so right! Never seen that kind of thing before! In fact, I would be willing to bet that Android will collapse and die instantly just like Microsoft did! What the heck are you guys talking about?

Apple never denied that theyr MacOS is based on BSD UNIX. However, an OS is generally more defined by the APIs it provides -- and Apple has put their APIs on top of BSD UNIX.

Amazon does not claim that it's Kindle Fire run Android. Precisely for the same reasons.

Unfortunately, the concept of Android was advertised as to allow seamless interopability. Now, that the truth has been revealed, things will only get worse.

....and how much marketshare does MacOSX hold?

... and quite a lot more than it held 5 years ago.

Even the great Woz said he wished his iPhone could do the things his Android does. Pretty solid endorsement coming from the REAL creator of everything Mac. Although People still think Stevie boy did it all on his own.

Reports indicate that he sees value in both platforms. Android for flexability if one is going to take the minimal time to become familiar with it. IOS for those already invested in the Apple product line or that will never take the minimal time to become familiar with a mobile device. Both OS have there place and target users.

But, as an engineer, he seems to prefer the flexability of Android for his personal use.

.. with Woz (who, of course, created the Apple ][ machines, not the Mac). As an engineer and personal computer creator myself (Amiga 2000, 3000, ... ) I'm very happy with Android. It just keeps getting better, in good ways, and I'd recommend it to most of the people I know... younger folks, tech folks, etc. I'm able to do just about every useful thing on my Android tablet that I could do well on my laptop. Sure, I can technically run my CAD tools or video/photo tools on my laptop, but they so overwhelm it, it's all but pointless most of the time. I can even bind my Nexus with a mouse and keyboard (Bluetooth) and hack away in a Linux shell if I so desire (haven't yet, but I did on the "Droid" it replaced).

However, for Palm-like simplicity coupled with the kind of "gee-whiz" slickness that Apple does well, the iPhone is a legit choice for some people. And I have recommended these to friends who were leaning that way, but somewhat afraid of technology. My 80 year old Mom recently got an iPhone, and she's able to use its features far more effectively than her "feature phone". That's a testament to hand-holding ability of the iPhone. She might have managed on Android, but she would have needed a bit more help.

And also why I think Microsoft's campaign to make people think Windows 7 Phone is "easy" compared to other smartphones is doomed... iPhones are awfully close to "as simple as possible, but no simpler".

Sorry, but you could not be more wrong. Woz created the Apple I and Apple II. He had no involvement whatsoever on the Mac. I don't even think he was with the company any more when the Mac was developed. Depending upon your preferences, Jef Raskin or Steve Jobs is the father of the Mac. There were, of course, a lot of other people involved in the project, but Woz was not one of them.

Woz is an engineer. Jobs was a salesman/manager who was great with "concepts".

Of course he wants it to work like an Android as all techies do! No surprise and not the opinion of the average user!

Is the lack of Siri support for iPhone models prior to 4s considered fragmentation? I think it is a ploy to get iPhone users to upgrade.