Discussion on:

Don't blame Motorola for not wiping returned Xooms

Bill,
I agree 99% of the time...however sometimes a device needs to be returned because it "blue screens" (to use windows terms) or simply will not power on at all...blown internal power supply, battery connector, etc.
It's really hard to reset or wipe a device without being able to even turn it on, but you still want a refund or warranty return.

You make and excellent point. I've added your comments to the article. What's really needed are third-party tools that allow you to access and wipe data from a device. If the device appears as a flash drive, you might be able to wipe at least some of the data with a applications designed to clean flash drives. Unfortunately, not all devices work this way when connected to a PC.

First of all, thanks for including my comment in the article...and for adding the other issues that I hadn't considered that are equally valid & didn't think to mention, LCD issues, smashed screen, etc.
And you're right - some devices will show up as a flash drive when connected to a computer, some require that you perform a function on the device
I think as many of the commenters have stated that there are 3 segments of the population when it comes to consumer devices:
1. Technically savvy consumers/users - 5%
2. Standard consumers who read the manual or on screen directions, etc - 50%
3. Regular consumers who just turn on the device when they get it, never read any terms & just click "yes", install any/all apps without consideration to consequences, import contacts through GMail, Yahoomail, etc. without even realizing it, etc. - 45%

It's the last 2 groups, the 95% of users who don't really "get" that all the information is now on the phone...not in the cloud, not on your computer, not the SIM card only (many end users only learned to remove SIM cards during the past 5 years) where it used to reside. Unfortunately, these are the folks that return devices without wiping the files.

That said, Motorola does not refurb its own devices (most bid brands don't), and it realy seems that a data wipe "should" be standard process for refurbing a device. But at the end of the day, it is your information, and as noted by another commenter, there's nothing to keep the people who refurb to copy your info for nafarious purposes before they wipe the drive.

I think that a lot of people make the assumption that when they take a non-working (or not working very well) device to a retailer or warranty repair center, that the repair center will fix it and return it to them. They would not see any reason to wipe the device as they think it will be fixed and they will get the same one back. For laptops, that may be generally true, but for tablets and phones, that may not be the case, i.e., the device may be replaced with another new or refurbished device. People also don't understand that the repair people may be able to (and want to) look at their private data.
They may also not understand how to do a backup of a tablet or phone (or even the need to), so if they wipe those, they would lose all of their data, so they wouldn't want to wipe them to begin with.

a special app were it more advance then a back, were it doesnt save encryption tages of the information it save, rather it simpe save the diffrent personal in formation as it raw file. the app would be called, my **** got **** with and it needs to be clean scrubed by a tech., or even better, lab tech cleaning

Why would any company refurbish without factory reset?
A return because "you didn't like" should go back to a refurb center but I am sure that doesn't happen at the big box stores because that would cost money. A return for a failure might. If you work with your new device for 4 hours and it acts up 4 times, you take it back. How long do the sellers evaluate it before they put it back on the shelf for the next sucker to buy and have trouble with? I'm guessing about 15 minutes. Yes, if the unit is not brain dead you should know how to destroy your data. Yes if you are a repair/evaluate Tech anywhere along the process you should factory reset as your first step!!!

Don't you have a spell checker? Do you know the difference between 'an' and 'and'? Between 'their' and "they're"?

It's just expected that an article for publication would be more polished.

A spell checker would not help. The words are spelled correctly, just used in the wrong context. Their, instead of there, etc.

The simple fact is that there are many out there (and they're probably the majority) who are merely users of technology. They want something that turns on and does what they need it to do without ever having to get "under the hood". They lack the knowledge, or the desire to learn, the inner workings and complexities of their devices and manufacturers and retailers are well aware of this (or should be).

Responsible vendors would do their customers a great service by putting policies in place to ensure that any returned device is "factory fresh" before it's re-sold and does not expose any customer information left behind (intentionally or by neglect) by the person who returned it.

But, given that greed and the bottom-line almost always win out, that's probably not going to happen until someone successfully sues for violation of their privacy caused by this common-sense practice not being the norm.

If I buy a refurbished device, I expect it to be just that - refurbished. If the previous owner's information is still on it, that tells me in capitol letters that the device has not been refurbished, just sent out again, hoping it will work for the new owner. Previous posters have given reasons why the device may not have been wiped by the owner, but I see no reason for it not to be wiped by the company before reselling it. Before I retired, we repaired/refurbished computers for our company and it would have a firing offense (at least a reprimand with a note in my file) to send out a computer with company information on the hard drive to a new user.

The user has ultimate responsibility over the data entered into the device. However, the assumption you???re making is that the device can be reset. How many devices were returned because a power issue? A shotgun approach to blame the owner is not something I expected in your article. Until I see the raw data for each device, making a blunt accusation 'the owner' is irresponsible - is irresponsible on your part. I can image the user is told the same device will be returned after a ???minor repair.??? Once on the bench, surprise for everyone! A refurbished unit is returned to the owner due to the unexpected repairs required.

Your article expects the owner to have some sense of knowledge of the device as a pre-requisite for ownership. Manufactures are advertising how simple the device is to use and owner???s manuals are getting thinner on content. Heck, I've owned a camera for two years and still learning all the features within the complex menu system.

I would suggest tech support to remind the user to reset the tablet when returning for repair ??? assuming the device can be powered to allow the reset. Once it is determined the device needs extensive repair, it is returned to factory conditions as a part of the refurbishing process. Until personal data is stored separately on a owner replaceable storage device ??? the owner and tech support are responsible for the content of personal data. There's no excuse for anything less.

You're right, I do expect owners to have "some sense of knowledge of the device". When someone cuts their finger on a knife, do we blame the manufacturer for it being too sharp? When some fails to lock their front door, do we blame the lock maker when someone opens the door?

While there are times it may be physically impossible for an owner to wipe a device (as I noted in the article), owners need a basic understanding of how the devices they buy function.

Bill,
Unfortunately American consumers do expect knives to cut steak but not their fingers and ladders to get them to the roof and to cushion their fall.
While I don't blame Motorola for not wiping the devices immediately when they got them (especially if they were just going to send them to a recycler), they should have been wiped during the "refurbish" process.

Bad assumption that the user could wipe the data before returning. Maybe the device was dead.
Good technical writers should be able to think through those kind of contingencies.
Besides, I would expect a refurbished machine to have had the drive wiped. Otherwise, what does "refurbished" mean?

Ultimately, I too believe that consumers need to be responsible for their own data, which of course includes making sure that any personal information is purged from any device before it is let free of their possession. However, Motorola (or whomever) owes it to their customers that any "refurbished" device is, in fact, refurbished. What if the first owner had implanted (either accidentally or on purpose) some form of malware on that device? The next buyer is expecting a "fresh unit", not only free of other people's data but dangerous code as well. As responsible consumers, should we also be "taking responsibility" by rooting every "new" device because of the possibility that the manufacturer didn't do their job?

You're right. Manufactures and retailers should provide buyers with clean devices. And, buyers have a reasonable expectation to purchase a malware-free unit.

As I pointed out in my story about the Transformer Prime (linked to in the article), I didn't keep the "used" tablet that Office Depot sold to me as "new".

My point with this article is to call tablet owners out on not taking personal responsibility for protecting their data. I suspect that most if not all of the returned Xooms were not dead, which was the case with my Transformer Prime.

I'd be surprised if more than 2% of TechRepublic readers would ever return anything with data on it. (As a group, we here are pretty capable of taking care of ourselves) It's the hapless non-techie consumer who is vulnerable here; people who don't really understand the underlying technologies and the real risks involved, and are totally reliant upon the manufacturers and retailers to have their back.

I recently purchased a new Android phone. At least I assume it was new. Was I "irresponsible" by not rooting it to make sure that it was clean out of the box?

As I wrote, "buyers have a reasonable expectation to purchase a malware-free unit."

I'm less convinced that buyers have a reasonable expectation that no one will see the data on a device they no longer have control over.

I liken it to leaving your wallet in the car when you take it to a repair shop. Do you expect the repair shop to protect your wallet? You may, but you'll be hard pressed to sue the shop if your wallet is stollen--thus all the language about the shop, parking garage, etc. not being "responsible for items left in vehicle" that you see.

If consumers can't/or should-not expect manufacturers & retailers to properly flush devices that are returned, then how or why should we expect the devices we purchase to be clean? Why is it any more of a "reasonable expectation" that a device is clean when one gets it than it will be "cleaned" should he/she return it?

Both the former owner and the manufacturer/retailer should be making sure the device is wiped. But the possible outcome for the former owner is identity theft and the manufacturer/retailer is an annoyed customer. Whoever has the most to lose has the greater responsibility.

Consider my car analogy. When you purchase a new car, the buyer expects, and is often legally entitled, to a vehicle that meets specific safety standards. This is akin to buying a malware-free device.

But when you go to sell that car, you don't remove any of the trash, old bills, credit card receipts, old photos, etc. that have piled up over the years. The dealer will likely clean it, because doing so makes it easier to resell. During the process, anyone at the dealership who comes into contact with the vehicle will have unfettered access to all the material you abandoned in the car. And even if they do a really good job of cleaning the car, let's assume they missed a few bits of paper that were crammed down under the seat. Supposed the new owner finds those pieces of paper.

Would you be angry with the dealer for not cleaning every scrap of paper from the car? Is the dealer legally liable for not removing the material that you abandoned from the car?

I'm not suggesting that Motorola shouldn't wipe refurbished devices. It should. I'm not saying that device makers shouldn't make it possible for owners to personally wipe data from seemingly dead devices. They should.

But, I want customers to take more responsibility for their own data, and treat it like they would the bits of paper in an old car.

It is trivial to "wipe" an digital storage device in that it will appear 'as new'. There is no chance 'some bits to be left behind' as in your car analogy, which is a physical piece by piece process.

It is not only trivial to wipe clean digital devices, but also to install fresh and up to date software etc. The device likely left factory months ago, was sit ton on shelves months and by the time it enters the refurbisher's place it's software might be way outdated.

About the only reason this is not happening is that the refurbisher is not competent enough to do it, or just plain not performing their business duties.

Making it possible to wipe data from possibly dead devices means that parts of the device (storage) must never die. While that might be somewhat possible, it will make the devices much more expensive, and therefore will never happen.

About the only proper way to do this is to use some form of encryption for the storage. Once you don't known your password the storage is inaccessible and can only be wiped. Simple and cheap.

You're assuming that all the returned devices were fully functional and capable of being wiped by the original by the original owner. How are you supposed to wipe a non responsive device.

I had a friend who worked at a warranty repair center in the northern part of the central U.S.A., and this center worked on many brands of cell phones. My friend shared with me that many of his co-workers had purchased their own PC interface cables for various models of the phones for the specific purpose of downloading pictures and whatever else tickled their fancy. He told me that I would not believe all the different types of pictures people took with their phones especially personal intimate photos. Often these other co-workers would "trade" pictures amongst themselves and on the web.
Management was aware the repair techs often downloaded pictures, etc... from the phones to be repaired but officially the practice was frowned upon.

I hope everyone who reads my article also reads your post. History shows us that even the best security policies and procedures won't/can't stop all bad behavior.

I suspect that this is fairly common in any place that is handling large amounts of separate units daily. I've known people that have worked for the major chain store tech support (Firedog, Geek Squad, etc.) as well as a cell phone refurb. center and every one of them will attest that the first thing a lot of techs will do is browse to the pictures to see if there's anything worth keeping.

It's a shame it happens, but it also makes for a good selling point when I'm trying to convince someone to use my service instead of taking it to a large repair center.

If I tried it and returned it to the store I bought it at, I would expect that I am at least repsonsible for deleting my data from it. If the device is returned as defective, I would at least delete my data if possible, but would also have the presumption that during the course of diagnostics and repair, the device would be at the very least, reset back to factory condition.

It is easy to say in a technical community "you should know how", but as consumers we should not have to "know how".

That's just my point. Consumers should know how.

Yes, manufacturers should wipe all data from refurbished. Yes, it should be easy to wipe your data from a device. Yes, consumers need better tools to wipe data from their devices.

But just as we know not to put metal forks in the microwave, we as responsible consumers should know how that we need to wipe our devices and how to do it.

If you return a piece of hardware to the store, it should be the responsibility of the store to make sure the data is wiped before they can sell it as refurbished [oh we'll assume they do that and not sell as new!]. There are a plenty of novices out there who wouldn't think of wiping the data. Some can't even figure out the difference between RAM and a hard disk [I had one who thought data might be stored in ther screen as well!]
If you return it to the manufacturer, the manufacturer must "clean" it or dispose of it properly.

Is not the same as wiping data. It makes it harder to get but the data is still there until it is erased or overwritten.

Yes, manufacturers should have a policy of wiping returned devices. Apparently this one did, but there was a failure. They identified the failure and appeared to have come up with a responsible reaction to the situation.

Yes, users should know enough to wipe before returning. But users are users. Anything more advanced than a toaster or VCR is stretching their span of knowledge. As part of the written returns procedure, user should be encouraged to do the wipe. If they can't, there should be some way for them to clearly indicate on the device that it has not been wiped.

Retailers also have to be held accountable. When a device is returned, they should be asking if it has been wiped. If it has not, they should be required to make note of that on the return documentation, to emphasize need for wiping at factory.

Many of todays device short of those with a HD. Cannot be wiped as stated if an hardward faiure exists. I had such and incidence once with a Palm Treo 680. I managed to delete some of the contents via a USB drive connection but not all.

As also stated if the product is refurbished the OS whatever it is should be clean factor image with all other partition purged before hand. With many of todays smartphones the contents can be hacked and access by so many means that I don't put any private or valuable content as I used to carry on my Palm Treo. I still use it though as a PDA only now since Android is buggy and there are so many apps that can or may be scanning content including Google monitoring what I do. I revert to my laptop for those communications and storage.

But owner need to make the best efforts to purge the data and/or reset the device before returning it or sending it in for repair.

How can Motorola sell a refurbished device without restoring back to the way it would have left from the factory? What if the returning customer left a bunch of porn on the device and then the device ended up in the hands of a child? It's very bad news to have this happen.

First of all probably that device wasnt completly refurbished, i worked for a couple of months in a company who did that and all the proces was long and with lots of checkpoints. So the dilio for Motorola was the way those clients will perceive it. In every product delivered either brand new or refurbish. Quality is a major fact. So what i think is that Motorola was afraid is look like a disconsidered and irresponsable brand. As for the poll, like i've said it before 90% of the people who read Tech Republic are technical oriented readers whose average skills are at least change a malfunctioning Hard drive and RAM memory in any machine from a laptop to a server.

Although I agree with the basic idea of the article that if the user is concerned with privacy they should take the responsibility to wipe their info from the device before returning it, that does not absolve the company of their responsibility to the remainder of their customers. As two other posters said, "refurbished" implies that the item has gone back to the factory, inspected, and returned to like new condition. And if I buy such an item labeled as "refurbished" then that's what I expect to get. If the manufacturer isn't taking the trouble to do that, then the item shouldn't be sold as "refurbished", it should be sold as "used".

EDIT: I guess I should have clicked the "view all comments" button before posting this as I see now this has been addressed by many other posts. I guess maybe the title of the article is misleading. The title sets the tone with which I read the rest of the article. With a title of "Don???t blame Motorola for not wiping returned Xooms", by my above and several other poster's argument, I absolutely DO blame the manufacturer, although for a different reason than the article discusses. If the title of the article had been something like "Users must take responsibility for own data on returned devices", then I would have been more in agreement.

I once purchased a couple of dozen computers for my school, from a recycling/resale place for education.
When the boxes came, they had ID stickers that identified them as coming from an unmentioned State office of Social Services. On a sticker on the side of EVERY machine was the previous user's personal ID information, including his Social Security number. I called the recycling company to inform them of this major oversite. By the way, this was back in the early 2000's.

Bill,

Just want to point out that it appears your directions for how to wipe an Android phone apply to the Motorolla variant. For an HTC device you would go:

Home
Settings
SD&phone storage
Factory data reset

This is one of the reasons in my opinion why the fragmenation of Android is preventing it from surpassing that of Apple.

first when you buy a car, do you intrust the dealer and the mechanics to experiment with security issue with your purchase?

the truth of the fact most security measure are all manufactors fault. google puts out there great developer products, if the manufactor creates a product, the manufactor should have their recomendation on wich leading IT companies can provide the service all internet users deserves.

microsoft has been doing this for ages, they build a unfinish product year after year, or operating system after operataion system, at the cost to theconsumer. The majority of the time on the internet is cya on your system rather then true collaboration for a phiscal profit. listen i could not find a answer for the letter b in my encryptiuon of security strategic defense.

the answer is Bussiness, what other might do online is is not ther concern of the real IT (Intergrating Technology) Community.

were is the old traditinal concept were the tech geeks can battle for billiondollar encryption contract. the well spent advertising dollar will leverage the common user to spend money on real virtual products.

the bottom line $ talks and customer walk away from defaulting product wich supress the possibilty of advancing the bird.com error

jean paul G

While a user should know how to wipe their device before they sell or return a device the company should do a wipe on it before boxing it up for resale. What if I returned a device and did wipe my data but also installed some malware when I was finished? I just feel that if you send something back the company reselling the device should either wipe it to nothing or refresh the device to how it would be if brand new.