Discussion on:

Ubuntu pulls the 'official' plug on Kubuntu

I've never been much of a fan of KDE. I did start out my Linux use with MEPIS which used KDE and I found it pretty uninspiring.

I switched to Ubuntu with version 6.06, and I'm still using Ubuntu, though on 11.10 now.

After suffering with Unity for the over a year (the desktop switcher is excruciating to use, and I switch desktops a LOT!) I installed Cinnamon last month, and the relief was instant.

Now, Cinnamon is a Gnome fork, sponsored by the Mint Linux folk, but it works just fine with Ubuntu.

The GUI issue has been tempting me to defect to Mint, but at this point installing Cinnamon was much quicker and easier.

Now, when Ubuntu 12.04 appears, I'll have to decide If HUD makes Unity more usable. I'll probably run it for a while on a thumb drive, before I up and install it on my main system. If HUD doesn't help enough, I'll install the next release of Mint when it gets here.

I saw "user interfaces", but I read "user interfeces".
Come to think of it, I bet you put that in there!!!

Nick, you're saying:
"I came into this branch in midstream, so to speak, got distracted, and only now went back to fully re-read the OP."
How, so? When I've posted my OP it was I believe 5th or 6th post in here, yet you're claiming/suggesting that you came in the midstream and wasn't fully informed, yet, your first post acknowledges my original point from my OP. So, Nick, either stay where the truth is or stay with your "friends". Don't be like a flag on the wind.

was the branch of this discussion that hangs off your original post.

My first post chronologically was a comment on the attitude of the replies to your original post, and not an endorsement of that post. Matters (and manners) have since deteriorated to the point of flaming by you and others.

As I recommended earlier, unsubscribe and let it ride.

I booted my first Linux distro from a free Ubuntu CD in 2006. I've experimented with Mepis, Puppy, DSL, Debian, Xubuntu, Mandriva, and Freespire to name a few distros. But I always came back to Kubuntu and it remains my OS of Daily use today as it has been most ofthe time since '07. It just feels right to me. If the KDE team decides to create their own OS they can count me in as one of their charter users.

As a matter of fact it's THE distribution for people who like the KDE desktop.

How I switched from Windows to Ubuntu, Mint, Kubuntu, and finally OpenSUSE:

1) Tested classical Gnome based Ubuntu on VM on Windows, and said to myself: "Ummm... this doesn't look half bad. Got to see how it works on the box of its own"

2) Bought myself new computer, installed Windows 7 on one partition, Ubuntu on another, left 2 partitions empty, just in case. Later on, this made switching from distro to distro very easy.

3) Installed all the eye candy, Compiz & stuff, and gradually got hooked on it. Compiz sphere looks great, plus, if you bind it to one of the mouse side buttons, enables you to find your windows & switch between them very quickly.

4) Canonical mingled Unity with Compiz, and broke everything. Aarrgh! Switched to Mint Julia.

5) Upgraded Mint from Julia to Katya. Katya's Compiz was bug-compatible with Canonical's bastardized version. Aaarrrgh! Switched to Kubuntu.

6) Kubuntu upgrade broke MySql Workbench. Aaaarrgh! Switched to OpenSUSE.

For the time being, I'm quite satisfied with OpenSUSE. Apart from some troubles with GRUB2/GRUB discrepancies, and the usual wrestling with NVIDIA drivers, I had no mentionable problems.

I was forced to try out Unity and Gnome 3 in order to keep up with Ubuntu upgrades. I did try hard, but they are immature and they just didn't work for me (and Gnome Classic appears to be badly broken). They "get in the way" of what I need to do. My impression is that a lot of people are now moving onto KDE to be able to maintain a desktop that is mature and workable for them. Whatever Ubuntu elects to do in the future I think we desperately need to maintain choice, since different people do different things in different ways. MS is also making similar fundamental UI changes but in their case their users cannot keep the old way of doing things without dropping far behind. KDE gives us that choice so please let's keep it alive and growing.

Well, maybe linux would be much more successful OS if the so called community would threat "new" users with friendly and encouraging attitude instead of this now famous reply to almost every technical question: RTFM. Guys, this way you are killing yourself. I've tried few times to switch from Windows to Linux, and due to the fact that I was a "new" user I asked different questions. RTFM was what I got most of the time. So if in order to do x, y and z I have to RTFM, let me tell you, I don't want to RTFM, I need answer to a specific question and I don't have hours of time on hand to spend and read FM. And the funniest thing is that in this FM very often there isn't answer to this question. Guys, blame yourself. On Windows if I need an answer, I'm getting it, nicely, politely, without problems, without telling me that Windows is just for professionals (as I've got replies that Linux is). Guys, blame yourself. Customer service is one of the most important things and you simply didn't have it.

That word implies you actually paid for something. Is that the case? Did you pay for the support of the people you were asking?

If you're not willing to put in the time to learn it, why do you even want to use it. Just stick to what works for you.

I've been a *nix admin for years and I'll just tell it straight. I don't think "Linux", per se, is going to ever be a common desktop. Servers are one thing....desktops are something else. I also don't really see any point in making an agenda out of doing it. People simply don't care enough about computers and software to go, "Wow...I really want to learn how to use something else."

So, from my own point of view, I'll tell you to read the manpages myself. I'll leave out the "F" part, but if you don't want to learn it, don't. I'm not going to do your research for you.

@tbmay
Absolutely. There are people in this (I won't say which) organisation too lazy to read even to the end of a two line email. I'm a hard core Linux user, avoiding Windows whenever I can. Then they want me to figure out how to do this and that in this application on Windows and then tell them how to do it. Mostly it has to do with layout and graphics - things that don't interest me at all. I've even been asked to learn how to use a program that makes membership cards and then tell them how to do it.

We don't want these monkeys on Linux. Let them stay with Windows. Funny thing is, Linux is nowadays as easy, or easier, to use use than Windows. They just don't know it.

You've just wrapped up everything wrong with the IT industry and the majority of Linux users in a single, self-important, arrogant sentence. You make me ashamed to say I work in IT.

Ok, so according to you, if I don't pay I have no right to expect civilized treatment, good quality software/manuals etc?
Ok, no problem, and that's why I'd rather pay and have high quality stuff and have PROPER customer service. That's why I use windows. NO PROBLEM for me whatsoever. You stick to your own, we stick to our own and we all be happy. Great! NO PROBLEM.

You referring to ubuntu forums? Then yes, there's a lot of jerks of all stripes.

You would be surprised by the Mandriva forums. Almost everybody who comes there from a different distribution remarks at how helpful and friendly Mandriva users are.

It's a tight enough community that the bad attitudes are weeded out rather swiftly.

For numerous reasons I suggest people new to Linux use Mandriva, the help from the community being one major plus.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/customer

So you don't have a RIGHT to expect ANYTHING. If someone takes the time to help you, he's doing you a favor. He doesn't owe you any more than some stranger walking down the street.

Quote:

"Ok, no problem, and that's why I'd rather pay and have high quality stuff and have PROPER customer service. That's why I use windows. NO PROBLEM for me whatsoever. You stick to your own, we stick to our own and we all be happy. Great! NO PROBLEM."

That makes perfect sense to me. We have an understanding.

I'm a customer but in places where they actually appreciate someone's (mine) business.
Linux world seems to be not bothered with future/new users/customers. That's fine. But result of it is that no one who wants to make business will support it. And I do not believe that someone will give me better free service than when I actually pay for one. And you are wrong that someone who isn't payed do not owe me anything. Respect, understanding, patience, manners... did you hear of any of them? If not, RTFM? how would you like that? Anyway, I gave a go to few distributions of Linux, none of them could (especially software I needed) even come close to what I have on Windows. As simple as that. And as I've said, I'd rather pay and have high quality stuff than get something for free and when it doesn't work and I'm asking question why, in response I'm getting: Did you pay anything for it? which incorrectly implies that I have absolutely no right whatsoever to expect it to work as it should be. Ok, that's why I'd rather pay and do my work instead of spending hours on trying to figure things out just to discover that this isn't actually working.
By the way, the spirit in which you wrote last reply very clearly resembles the spirit and vibe one gets on "Linux" forums. You're not this, no one owes you anything, etc.
Dude, get over it and get a life. No one (except kids) will want to have anything to do with you if you treat them in "the linux fashion".

Use what you want. I'm not a "Linux" evangelist. The ONLY thing you and I agree on is the Linux evangelists tend to look like jerks in their mothers' basements. I'm middle-aged...married...and support systems to make money.

But an awful lot of open source software does what it does better than other software. And developers have generously made it freely available. So every time my clients, and employers, have taken advantage of the open license, stability, and security of such things as Apache, mysql, php, OpenBSD....the list goes on and on...they have benefited from SELFLESS developers.

The difference between them and you and they didn't think anybody OWED them no learning curve.

You got your distros for free. The information is available. Documentation takes time, and time is money.

If you take desktop applications to which I was referring to and which such I work with, then I don't see any competitions from Linux side.
Documentation, over all is in professional world integral part of a product. And Linux world doesn't have it. That's the whole crux.
You know it is like comparing a restaurant to a cheap/almost free diner. In the latter you're not suppose to complain, have preferences, be discontent because everything there is so, so cheap. After a while using/visiting those places you getting use to the waiting staff (if any) horrible attitude - because everything there is so cheap. This is so sad, yet so true. That's why for this reason only as long as I can afford I'm going to dine only in high class restaurants, where my wishes, desires tastes are catered for, no one makes stupid faces when I complain that I don't like this or that dish, everyone is pleasant and the whole place has nice and welcoming atmosphere. Owners of this place want make money. They provide support. I'm their customer. They treat me as such, with respect and understanding. With patience and pleasant manners. That's what I like. That's why I'm prepare to pay for it.
And by the way, I didn't try linux because it was free. I wanted to try something else than Windows. And you know how it felt like? Like switching exclusive, expensive restaurant for a cheap diner.

It's like being given a free meal, then complaining that the chef didn't cook it the way you liked it. See you have to pay something at the cheap diner too.

http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-385653-3633183

Paid them for their services have you? Among many things you fail to understand is we do have lives. Better things to do than waste our time helping ingrates like you for nothing. By for nothing I mean you'd gain nothing from the experience either.

Responsibility, diligence, intelligence, reason ... did you ever hear of any of them? Demonstrate a few of those virtues and maybe you'll get the respect you think you're due. As simple as that.

TANSTAAFL

His point in his initial post was that he asked what he thought was a valid question and did not receive "responsibility, diligence, intelligence, reason" in return, but was essentially told to "RTFM, n00b!"

Not everything is about money. Sometimes it's simply about treating others the way you wish to be treated. Demonstrate that virtue and maybe you'll get the respect you've forfeited by your response here. As simple as that.

And you alluded yourself in another post to the fact that you recognize people have an attitude of entitlement toward tech support. It is impossible to separate that idea from the irritation people have toward this poster. I've always had a great deal of respect for Ansu's opinion's too, and he sees this the same way I do.

If I went to some random website that alleged to have medical experts and asked about an odd symptom I was having, and someone responded with an equivalent of RTFM, would I be rational to come here and say the "medical community" has a bad attitude and crummy customer service?

Regarding money, unfortunately, if you don't make it, you don't live. I've said it before, when the bank stops demanding a mortgage and I can walk in to the grocery store and cart out groceries without paying, and without the police locking me up, I'll solve people's tech problems for free and be as helpful as I can.

I'm not going to hold my breath.

You have problem with analogies. It's not like you say: "If I went to some random website that alleged to have medical experts and asked about an odd symptom I was having, and someone responded with an equivalent of RTFM, would I be rational to come here and say the "medical community" has a bad attitude and crummy customer service?"
The problem would be better described with this analogy:
"I went to 10's of websites who allegedly supposed to provide medical support, and I asked most likely very novice question. In response I got RTFM!" Then my conclusion is that:
1. I'm not going to bother any more with them
2. I do believe that this is common in such community
3. I'd rather pay and be treated like a customer/patient
4. I'm asking myself question: Why are those people there? If they are there with the purpose of help to others why are they so rude? NOWHERE on those websites says that only the most advanced questions will be answered. I assumed then that I can ask my question there even though it was probably silly and for someone who is expert didn't even sound like real question. And on all of them situation is the same RTFM. No! thank you. I'd rather pay.
And just to give you and others frustrated, irritated, arrogant and rude "professionals" advice:
1. If you don't want to help don't, no one is expecting this from you. This is much better that insulting others who actually thought they will get help they needed.
2. If you pretending/want to help do is as a man not like a child

Customer doesn't always mean someone who payed.

Anyway, to me linux at this stage is like a cheap diner - even this short exchange proves this. I didn't attack anyone, didn't insult, I've just expressed my opinion which I believe is both valid and polite, and what did I get in response? Abuses, insults, smart ass responses like tbmay's trying to teach me who customer is and why I don't have ANY rights, etc, etc etc.

Guys, once and for all - no one who wants to make real business will accept this riff raff behavior. They go where people behave like professionals, businessmen who actually wants to do a business not listening insults and smart ass responses from riff raff.
This will constrain linux community to riff raff and only people who accept this kind of treatment. I think signs of where it will lead at the end already started to show up. Continue in this spirit and you stay alone in this world. Good luck.

Quote:

"Customer doesn't always mean someone who payed."

In a non-slang context, it most certainly does. Period.

Quote...from your first quote:

So if in order to do x, y and z I have to RTFM, let me tell you, I don't want to RTFM, I need answer to a specific question and I don't have hours of time on hand to spend and read FM."


Then I suggest you stick to what you know, or what suits you. Or pay someone to help you. Hey, Nick took the trouble to give you some great links to start with if you REALLY want to learn Linux. Great place for you to start. But you told us you don't WANT to read the manpages...just solve your specific problem. Now pray-tell-me, why would anybody do that for someone who is telling them how he doesn't want to learn it himself?

I have gotten great feedback from some of the most "hard-core" user groups in nixland by simply not acting like anybody owed me anything. Give that a try. Betcha it will work.

It sounds to me like Windows is working for you, so stick with it and be happy.



I

That attitude of
"Dood, come help me with this"
"Ok, done"
"Why are you still here?"
And then they wonder why nobody bothers.

Worst thing is, they might not realize they have an attitude problem. They have this near-sociopathic egocentrism going on, with no sense of community, no sense of giving back - or even appreciation. Nothing.
They're cold fish shouting for service - and people learn to ask for payment up front - because they *know* it's gonna be an exercise in aggravation-tolerance to help those selfish asses.

I came into this branch in midstream, so to speak, got distracted, and only now went back to fully re-read the OP.

Carry on.

Even in a non slang context customer not always means someone who payed. Period.
But that's really not important at this stage.
Don't you see that riff raff like you and the other greek by exactly this kind of behavior you've presented here just proves my point?
Someone who is payed is obliged to behave in a normal civilized way (NickNielsen), someone who isn't and has very low social skills, no manners etc (you and the other greek) behave like pair of wankers. Typical linux behavior.
As for Nick's links, Nick, thank you but at this stage I am convinced that linux simply doesn't have quality desktop applications which would suit my needs, and the high standards I'm used to have.
There is no competition for AutoCAD from linux side, open office is nowhere near Microsoft's Office, Visual Studio has no competitors in linux world, gimp is nowhere near photoshop. Do you see now what I mean, what high standards I'm talking about, and why am I saying that linux world looks next to windows like cheap diner next to classy restaurant?
And I even didn't mentioned here RTFM which is sooo linux.
That's why I'd rather pay.

It's clear from how you keep repeating it that your real point is to tell people "I'd rather pay".
What has been pointed out to you is that you are in fact entitled to the full deluxe treatment under Linux, if you in fact pay for that.
Otherwise you have to go by your charming personality. Your behavior here has given many of us cause to believe that your charming personality needs some work.
There are also Linux people who lack a charming personality, for sure. This is due to the simple fact that nobody has hired them to do tech support on those forums, so nobody has checked if their personality is a good fit for that.
Nick, knowing the latter fact, gave you the benefit of the doubt. Far as I understand his last comment, he has read your output and withdrawn that benefit.

Anyway, your reason for speaking here seems to be to be some kind of shill/trolling, which isn't welcome.

Nick, I figured once you read the original post, you would understand the desire to make sure we had a proper definition of customer.

Ansu...about your observation of teenagers....

You are completely correct. In fact, this is something we talk about in my home, as my wife is a teacher, and I worked in I.T. in a school district for years.

We hold out a hope that it is just an age thing, and something that will be grown out of. But there is a pretty commonly know issue going on with hiring 20-somethings these days regarding narcissism and entitlement, that is being observed in corporations. If it's not something they'll grow out of, Lord help us when they start running the world.

The ubiquity of the Internet and technology has fostered a mindset that just because someone has a computer, somebody somewhere has an obligation to make sure it does what they think they want it to do. I've tried very hard to understand why they feel that way, but I just can't. Since I recognize it, I've learned to do exactly what you've observed, demand payment up front and signed agreements.

I use linux and mac, but in some connections I come to windows, like for example on my wife's PCs or in lecture rooms stationary machines. When I encounter a problem, there is help menu. In at least 90 per cent cases in my case the help offered is totally useless and irrelevant. This is because the trivial points are explained, but I would usually not have trivial problems. So whether using Linux or Mac or Windows, I always go to Google and search. And then I meet unselfish and caring people everywhere - mainly through their postings of solutions. And then I also post some of my solutions somewhere.

The good "custommer support" on windows generally is a myth.
(But naturally, one can have a good support in some client relationship - and that is good, but does not mage an absolute rule)

Missing support on Linux is consequently also a myth.

And I am very disappointed by the tone of the discussion at this thread. Some people in the Linux community might be temporarily frustrated sometimes, but I doubt that the lines shown here with all the RTFM are in any degree typical. I have never met anything like this in real life.

But why Linux - because it stimulates your creativity and you as a person. You are led to think when using the computing devices. What is wrong with windows? Windows represent a main part of a cultural paradigm the mankind should have been spared for. Well, but now we have it (far already about 17 years). How many years it will take to heal the dammage?

Is my statement about all commercial computing? No: Mac tradition is definitely different. It might be that recent Apple strategies might lead to negative ends, but up to now it can not be compared with the negative effects of windows culture, from my perspective of science educator.

@lad.kroc Damage? When you develop an operating system that lets you connect to machines and instruments then you'll have a prolific product. Apple doesn't even try. Linux has a chance but most people developing it are only interested in making the "other Windows".

NO OS STIMULATES CREATIVITY FROM NOTHING. If you are a creative person any one of these systems becomes a tool. If you're not creative then you'll just want a system to do a specific task: numbers or browsing or writing. A Mac can't make a writer write more than can a Windows PC.

As soon as a person or company packages Linux according to its strengths (task-specific systems) then you're going to see it take over industries where Windows, DOS, and Unix now dominate.

Apple's Mac? It's like a Lexus - an overpriced Toyota with a exaggerated sense of worth.

"You didn't pay for anything, why are you crying because you can't get support? Why don't you learn to use it on your own?"

This attitude is exactly why the vast majority of people who try to use Linux and ask for help return to their previous operating systems. It's also the reason most people think poorly of IT. It's intolerant, condescending, disrespectful, and, to be frank, offensive. It screams "Go away, n00b, you bother me," without actually voicing the phrase.

And it completely overlooks the fact that, quite often, the manpages don't contain a clear answer to the question to anybody not already proficient in *nix.

....because I've always respected your opinion, and I'll take another look at my attitude...or at least the one I gave off here.

I suppose since I'm not an evangelist, and actually use Windows myself, among other things, your opening quote doesn't seem so bad to me. Understand I was also looking at this through the veil of a business owner who has tied up hours on a cell phone with "quick questions" and "pick your brain" from users of non-Linux systems, who had no darn intention of paying. So you could say I'm a little sensitive to an entitlement attitude.

But seriously. I see absolutely no point in changing to linux just for the heck of it. And if you want to do that, you have to realize the burden of learning it is on you. The answers are all over the web.

It's like being given a free meal, then complaining that the chef's meal actually harms you/and or is inedible (for someone who is used to prime quality food and PROPER service), and for that being scoffed by chef and stuff: Why are you complaining? You are not a customer, you got it for free!
That's why I'd rather pay.

You were the one who said you wanted to ditch Windows, that was YOUR desire, remember?
If you don't see a problem in PAYING FOR SERVICE, why didn't you? (Part of the price of a windows license is the "free support", and even then you might still need paid support)
I absolutely guaran-bloody-tee you, that if you go to a Linux board and say "Hey guys, where can I find a good consultant in my area, to help me get into Linux" ... yeah, you say that, and I guarantee you you'll get plenty of helpful advice.

Just because the OS is OS, it doesn't mean that you can't pay people for the time they spent learning it.

What kind of idiot would change OS without allowing for deployment costs, anyway?!? Deployment costs something, either your own time or the time of someone else.
Get a consultant to help you, end of story.

I never said that I want to ditch windows, just because I wanted to try something new doesn't mean that I want to ditch the old, does it?
And just to observe, in your post, words idiot, all those exclamation marks, the whole vibe: typical linux.
That's why I'd rather pay.

My experience in life is this; the answer you get strongly correlates with the manner in which you ask. From your mannerisms, I find it hard to believe that you didn't do your damndest to deserve a snooty answer.

Also, don't effing lie: Here's what you said
"I've tried few times to switch from Windows to Linux"
Switching from one to another does usually imply ditching the old, but THAT IS NOT EVEN RELEVANT, dumbass.
The thing that is relevant is that when you buy Windows, you pay for some amount of service. When you download Linux, you don't. If you can't figure out how to get an answer, because you are an obnoxious ass, then pay someone to suffer you while they set up your machine. People are like that, they'll put up with id10ts for pay.

And again; I repeat; as I AM A WINDOWS USER, my words CANNOT BE ATTRIBUTED TO MY NONEXISTENT LINUX-NERD ATTITUDE.

I just don't suffer fools lightly is all.

I see..., I don't think anybody but you will find my mannerism offensive, I also don't think switching means ditching one and using exclusively the other. In my case it means switch to try and if you don't like switch back. So read, understand what you reading and be aware of the fact that one word may have more meaning than just one you think of.
But your language and attitude just proves my point - linux is a cheap diner inhabited by types like you or in other words your kind makes expensive and exclusive places look like cheap diners.
That's why I'd rather pay, but sadly even then I'm not guarantied that I will not be surrounded by riff raff like you. Sad but true.

And no, I haven't started using Linux since my last post, so as a matter of fact, my kind inhabit Win7, not Linux.

You're a troll. And if you troll on a Linux board, yes, you've deserved an RTFM, if even that. Leaves people time to deal with people who actually want to be helped.

Ballmer will kick your ass for that!
Not only are you a snob, you're a clueless one at that.

A waiter to bring plates to you when you're at an all you can eat buffet. That isn't how they work al la carte man. Lets see what service costs today I haven't looked in a while.

http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/en_US/pd/productID.235387100

Pay you will! Next time you're in a Linux forum offer the $99 that costs to the first person able to help you with your problem and see how polite people get.

You're too easy to burn you know that? You just set yourself up with no facts to go on, expecting I will do likewise, and then fry fry fry! Shooting fish in a barrel is more sporting than going after you. Pathetic.

You deserve to run Windows. You deserve to get bent over every upgrade cycle for every buck they rake you over the coals for.

I started running Linux in 1995 and by 1996 I'd ditched Microsoft Windows entirely. Sure in the beginning the going was tough but I have some backbone and I slogged on. Today I've absolutely no regrets. In 2010 I finally bought myself a new PC. Was the first money I'd spent on computing in the whole time. I figured I was due you know? Actually I grew more and more concerned about the PC I am on now a Gateway E-4300 I pulled out of a trash pile with a BIOS date of 2001. But here I am and it is still running so I guess my fears were unfounded. I am most concerned about hard drive failure, nothing software related.

How much have you pissed away on software alone in the past 15 years? I shudder to think. But beyond the money there is the peace of mind I enjoy knowing my OS is rock solid and will be there for me day after day year after year nay decade after decade now!

That is a priceless benefit you will NEVER know. Because you haven't earned it. So buck up or f*ck off. By buck up I don't mean pay with cash either. I mean pay with blood sweat and tears. Because that is how everything of true value is earned in this world.

You frigging cry baby.

"There's a sucker born every minute." --P.T. Barnum

It's software Paul. God didn't say, "Linux have I loved, and Windows have I hated." Normal people don't really care what software people use. And I'm a guy who has been a Unix admin for a LONG time, with a ton of Nix on my resume.

Edit -

And don't take this comment to mean I've changed my mind about atch's attitude. Unfortunately I see the attitude in every aspect of technical work. When people start defining the word "customer" as basically anybody who goes to a web site and downloads something for free, we have a problem with an "entitlement attitude."

I'm looking at it as end-user support. The "quick questions" and "pick your brain" are what I'm paid to do. I agree with you that there has to be some point at which you have to say "I'm going to need some revenue if I help you any further," and start charging for your assistance.

I approve of your expectation that a new user should be willing to learn on his own, but not of the open-ended "The information is on the web" response. To that end, I usually provide links to on-line Linux/Unix tutorials.

http://tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/html/
http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Teaching/Unix/
http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~wjk/UnixIntro/
http://www.linux-tutorial.info/
http://www.tuxfiles.org/linuxhelp/cli.html

Some of them are more or less clear than others, and the assumptions of user skill level are different, but in all cases, they start from the beginning.

First of all, you did the fellow a favor of getting him some good sites to start with. You did him a FAVOR. You didn't have to. You did it out of generosity, and you darn sure didn't owe it to him.

And I'll bet you dollars to donuts he feels like he shouldn't have to read all that...just solve his specific problem for him. Then the next one... Then the next one.... And when you get sick of doing someone's homework for him, he'll call you jerk.

Second, you said you were PAID to handle those question. So, someone is paying your salary. Maybe you're not the guy collecting the bills, but someone is, and the people collecting the bills have to make sure the business is getting paid for your expertise.

I had both roles, and I don't love this stuff enough to work for free. Might have 30 years ago, but bills must be paid.

I'm in user support because it's what I enjoy doing, so, as I said, I have a different outlook on it than you do.

If the answer to the first question is a simple one, I'll give it, then provide the links. (It takes about 5 seconds to open the file, mark, Ctrl-V, Alt+Tab, Ctrl-C.) Along with the links comes a standard phrase: "You can probably find the answers to many of your questions here. If you wish to learn about Linux, these links are a good place for you to start.

I'm not going to address the sense of entitlement many end users have toward tech support. People that wouldn't dream of asking their doctor to diagnose them at a cocktail party have no problems asking the 'geek next door' to essentially do the same. Since I DO get paid to do this, that's long been a sore point. The first question is free, but after that, I start asking them if they want to schedule a support visit.

When you talking about first demanding payment then this by definition is not helping but providing a service. In same way an electrician doesn't help me when he fixes something in my house, a builder doesn't help me when he builds extension to my house etc. They provide service. Just like you do.
But on the contrary to you and your poor understanding of basic definitions, I'm a customer even if I don't pay. If I enter let's say Tesco, I'm for their stuff a customer - immediately, even before I picked anything from the shelf.
That's where your problem lays buddy - you have poor understanding of the world surrounding you and even the most basic concepts are not really clear to you.

If you go into the Library, you're not a customer - BECAUSE THEY*RE NOT SELLING ANYTHING!
That's where your problem lies buddy - you have a poor understanding of the world surrounding you, and even the most basic concepts are not really clear to you.

But, if he doesn't understand by now, I'm under no delusions he's going to. He also doesn't know the difference between a shopper, a loiterer, and a customer. I would try to explain the concept of professional services, and why someone providing professional services in I.T. related work must work with agreements and earnest money, so as to protect themselves from people who have no more concern for other peoples time than to demand it without compensation, but for some reason, I think it would fall on deaf ears.

How old are you, 12?
IF a library mistakenly has a sign which reads "customer service", and there might, considering the number of libraries in the world, and considering the conventional user of "customer" as a specifier for a kind of "service" ("user service" is not conventional) - then this use "customer service" does NOT have defining authority over your relationship with the library.

You do not buy something, then you're not a customer.
Not even if the service desk has a sign reading "customer service".

And my heritage hardly has anything to do with this.

Lord help us if adults operate by this logic.

First, it's "geek", not "greek".

Second, the name-calling technically violates the site terms of use.

Just so you know...

Although to be fair, I won't press any charges on the name calling, since I tend to call a shovel by its name, myself.
The ethnic spin to it was a bit off-color, though.

Incredibly, you are dumber and more useless than Atch666.

pucker up.

Still broken? Probably hardware-related then.

You and atch should go to some website that engages in pointless operating system wars. This one really doesn't get in to that.

You have not only problem with analogies. Now I can see that also simple, everyday words like customer are not really clear to you. Even in a library, as this jerk greek said, I'm still a customer. That's why they have CUSTOMER SERVICE. I DO NOT HAVE TO PAY IN ORDER TO BE A CUSTOMER.
Get it!

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/customer

I'll take the dictionary's word for it over someone who thinks he's entitled to have his "specific problem" solved for him just because he downloaded a free iso off the web.

Customers get to demand refunds for defective products. Maybe you should demand one.

Maybe you've listened to people who want the whole world to use Linux too much. Stop. Regardless of what evangelists say, "Linux" is still the domain of specific interests. The general public does not live in *Nixland on the desktop. And there's no reason for them to try.

Definition: A customer (also known as a client, buyer, or purchaser) is the recipient of a good, service, product, or idea, obtained from a seller, vendor, or supplier for a monetary or other valuable consideration.[1][2] Source, Wikipedia, sampled Feb 2, 2012 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer

Next you'll claim there's no such word as "snuck".

US prisons now refer to their Inmates as "Customers" like a lot of Government Departments specifically setup to deal with the disadvantaged.

It's Incorrect to do so but it is a Perfect Example of Political Correctness gone mad.

That person involved in a Auto Accident who is now brain damaged and confined to a bed in a Hospital is now considered as a "Customer" of both the Hospital that they are in and the Government Agency tasked with their welfare.

So from that prospective they are a "Customer" but it's a very narrow prospective that is at best questionable and highly undesirable.

Col

Political correctness gone crazy for sure. The taxpayers are the customers in those instances.

This observation Ansu made about teenagers is going to be a problem if it isn't reigned in. People who think they are entitled to everything just "because" don't have a concept of limited resources. They have no notion of giving back, compensation, or appreciation. "You owe me because I want what you have, know, or can do." The attitude is out there, and it is getting worse.

If you write an app and post it on your website, along with instructions, and tell people "Use it if you want" neither you nor other users of your application, are responsible for supporting it. It's even more bizarre that someone would say, "I don't want to read the instructions, just solve my specific problem." Apparently the king is displeased.

I recognize there are people who have an agenda of "Linuxizing" the whole world. They want Linux distros on all the office desktops, in Grandma's house, etc. They propogate a falsehood that people can jump right off Windows with no trouble. This is not true. Most people should just stick to Windows. It's what they know. It's how they get their work done. It runs the applications they, and their businesses need.

I know I derailed this discussion, and I apologize for that. But open source software is largely a use at your own risk thing, and I think people need to understand that before they start playing with it.

I care because customer service is what I do. Regardless of whether funds change hands or not, simple self-respect requires I at least provide a polite explanation of why I can't or won't help. Given the tone of your posts, I don't expect you to understand that.

If you mean by "wire jockey" you think I'm a hardware tech, you would be correct. And you're right, I don't care what OS you use, as long as it meets your needs. In my work, I primarily support the IBM 4690 OS-not something you're likely to see on a home PC, but an OS you depend upon, even though you don't know it.

As for the rest of your rant...



.

Library doesn't have the sign "customer service" by mistake. They have it because they users are also customers for them.
No wonder you cannot double click in linux in order to start installation, if such heads are involved in use and creation. Wow!

Might I suggest this as a good time to unsubscribe from this discussion and let the subject rest...

If someone has a question that I can answer, do you know what I do? I answer the f'ing question. Why? Because it's a decent, human thing to do. It also helps expose a new person to something I like. You know who gets hurt by that? No one.

The problem is that too many *NIX users have a burning need to feel superior and treat other people like crap. They've lost the ability to act like human beings. Unfortunately, that's a problem in the IT world, in general, but it's especially bad with *NIX users. Out of one side of their mouths, they whine that too many people are devoted to closed, proprietary OSes. Out of the other side of their mouths, they treat people looking to learn like annoyances and idiots. That is why the closed, proprietary OS will win in the end, and it's too bad.

One...when it comes to issues within my skillset...I can answer most of them, if you factor in research time. But that's how I'm paid, so I can't just spoonfeed answers to people or I can't pay my bills. They are free to learn things the same way I did. I think we see the difference between business owners and employees in this issue.

Second....regarding superiority....

You mistakenly think *Nix users are of one mind. My use of Linux and BSD systems are not to solve desktop issues, but network and server issues. The open nature of the software provides a great toolset for that.

There is a breed of *nix users that have some sort of quirky notion that EVERYBODY should use "Linux." They propogate a lie that people who are used to Windows can simply switch over with very little adjustment. Most people can't, and have no need to even try. Period. Open source software is still maintained, first and foremost, buy people who have specific interests and needs. Not the general population.

Superiority complex.....I've seen that in people in every darn discipline I've encountered in my quarter century of working. Spend some time around a group of teachers and count how many times someone tells you their resume.

Let's let this discussion die where it is before anybody else gets hurt.

Little chance of anyone learning anything, anymore.

You didn't delete post in which dumb_ass greek called me names, yet you deleted post when I explain that customer is not only the one who payed. Bravo Nick.

It's probably a good idea to pull your head in before you start to upset me.

You are the one looking for trouble and you got that post removed because of how you worded it. Nothing more nothing less.

Though I must say only an Idiot would start a brawl with one of the moderators here and then wonder why they upset others.

edited to add OH did you notice I didn't say RTFM though I have seen plenty of People on the Windows Forums say exactly that to people asking questions it's certainly not confined to just the Nix Community.

I also deleted those other 2 posts of yours. They where unnecessarily provocative and while I'll give you the Benefit of the Doubt if nothing else they made you look stupid from the way that I read them. Granted I do believe that wasn't your intention but it is how they read to me at least.

Col

That's what the flag link is for. The moderators can then review it to determine if it violates the terms of use. http://cbsitou.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1320/

Your posts that were deleted were flagged as offensive.

This is only a somewhat valid point: there are actually MANY Linux manuals written by many people. They vary considerably from free on-line stuff to $55 paperback paperweights. There is no single-source "manual" like there is with Windoze from Microsoft. Or Mac. The thing that atch666 should take into consideration is that outside of a limited access support option (for PAY) at Red Hat and a couple of other places - anyone responding in these forum type places ISN'T GETTING PAID to do it. Browbeating someone who isn't getting paid is not useful or sensible. I've seen forums where many newbie, simple questions were answered directly and without making fun of someone. If one forum doesn't seem friendly...... try a different one. I will agree that pop-up documentation ("help" if you will...) CAN be a bit sparse and terse. Who can you blame? Everyone in the world who DIDN'T write something to put there?

Since when? The last time I scanned through the tech section of the bookstore, there were easily 20 different books on Windows 7 itself. And 3 of them came from Microsoft Press. So which one is the single source?

just to be treated with some respect is problematic to me. The concept that it's okay for someone to act like a jerk on the Internet has become so culturally entrenched. I really can't believe that people think it's okay to tell someone, "If people at one forum are jerks, just keep looking. Why is it okay to treat people like that--anywhere?

We're just saying we can't be responsible for the attitudes of millions of people who use the Internet. There are so many objectionable things on the Internet I wouldn't even begin to try to list them all. That is a price of freedom.

There is a subculture in Linux that is very akin to "gamer culture." Most people would do well not to listen to them tell them to use "Linux." Most people have no reason to use "Linux."

Places I wouldn't expect much respect:

Dressed as the Grand Wizard at an affirmative action meeting.
Costumed as Hitler in a synagogue.
Eating a ham bone in a Mosque.
A Windows user in a Linux forum.

I imagine I wouldn't be treated too well in any of those scenarios.

Q: What is the best way to start an argument on the Internet?

A: State your honest opinion and wait ...

tbmay & mitchloftus, I think you gentlemen miss the point. When a user wants an answer they want an answer, not to be snarked at by every kid (at heart) who thinks it's "hawt" to spit out RTFM at every request for help.

PLEASE point me to a forum where this never occurs. While I may have the time to do in-depth reading of well or poorly written manuals, I do not have the time to wade through RTFM!! RTFM!! for simple answers to simple questions.

It leaves the bitter impression that Linux still is the stomping ground of kids who don't shave, living in their parents basement in their penguin t-shirt and ugly board shorts surrounded by a months worth of pizza boxes.

...and some of that is true. BUT...it is the internet after all, and the internet is trolled by all sorts of "wrong types."

My issue, as a tech pro and someone who has run a business, is digital consumers have an entitlement attitude. They think they are owed free music, movies, unlimited access, help, support, and a cheerful smile, for FREE.

Of course, I suspect they wouldn't be willing to sell their own wares for free.

There is not one single thing related to I.T. that can't be found on the web. Asking...rather...expecting someone to find it for you and consolidate it with a smile on their face for FREE is a classic case of what I'm talking about.

The open source developers have already generously donated GOBS of time in making the software available. If someone wants to use it, they are free and encouraged to do so. But they are responsible for learning it, and that's not too much to ask.

You can build a man a fire and keep him warm for a night or set a man on fire and keep him warm for the rest of his life! Apparently when they tried to light atch666's fuse he's a dud. Linux needs firecrackers, not sticks in the mud.

Beyond that what is the point of endlessly writing documentation over and over? Furthermore their questions could have been poor to begin with. If it is your machine you are the system administrator, being such you've some personal responsibility.

seriously, the best forums in the Linux world. And Mandriva is an excellent choice for folks new to Linux.

Go on, try it, it's not illegal, really it isn't.
I think you'll get a lot of support for the price of a Windows license, more than you'll need, most likely.
A good consultant will get you up to speed fast, and give you the tools to keep on top of things.
Nothing wrong with that.

Not that I deserve any of it, but what the hey if you're giving it out I might as well help myself.

You want to know the funniest thing? You don't know Jack about Windows either. One day when it goes away, it will too you know, you're going to be left high and dry. You're going to be kicking yourself saying why did I ever get involved with this stuff? I've no recourse today at all!

Then you'll come crawling back to Linux and you'll take what we tell you. RTFM!

When all else fails read the directions. UTSL

P.S. Linux has repeatedly been awarded the customer service award you were just too stupid to find the correct outlets. Know how I could tell? Anyone that'd tell you that Linux was made for professionals doesn't know the first thing about Linux! This BTW is the first thing about Linux:

Hello everybody out there using minix -

I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones. This has been brewing since april, and is starting to get ready. I'd like any feedback on things people like/dislike in minix, as my OS resembles it somewhat (same physical layout of the file-system (due to practical reasons) among other things).

--August 25th 1991, Linus Torvalds

I do agree with part of what you're saying. There are quite a few of the ultra proud Linux folks out there that think everyone should learn the hard way. However, there are super helpful user forums out there as well if you can dig just a bit. I started out Linux just to see what it was like with Fedora Core and have moved to Ubuntu and will be trying out Open SUSE per the recommendation above.

That being said, I know that I will have to spend a lot of time searching for answers when I need them and probably a few re-installs when I save the wrong commands.

I'm a novice and I do ok with Tech Republic and google. I own the manual, try to read it, get bored and jump in. I make mistakes, I learn, and then I help others without referring to the manual. My knowledge of Linux is probably easily dwarfed by most of the users on this board, but it's growing.

When everything works right no one really learns as much as they could.

It sounds to me like you're going through a similar experience as I did when I started. I tried different distributions, made a few big mistakes here and there too. Eventually you'll find yourself on an even keel just sailing along though.

I've known plenty of experienced users that ran testing distributions just so they had problems on a regular basis they could deal with. I like to operate on the theory that when things are going good I'll explore further, but I usually just end up wasting my time in forums like this

Atch...seems to me that's "Release to Final Market?" What does that have to do with anything? Oh, and FM? AM/FM radio?
Can't make heads nor tails out of what you're saying. YOU might know but I don't.
Wait, Atch stopped posting! Met his match? (oh and I finally get it, "read the manual... um, that's RTM and I still don't get FM.. Family Man?)

Linux Mint released their KDE version of Mint 12 less than 2 weeks ago. They seem to be catering to the desires of the majority of Linux users better than Ubuntu.

HI guys, i started and use Ubuntu since last october the version 11.10 it's kind of XP ou other GUI lauched on 90's. When the Canonical will release new Ubuntu up to date with a new GUI (unity it's terrible) . Canonica most leave to the user customizing and move the Lauch Barr, it's enough to make the user life easy. Now with tablets and new way to use the PC and related geeks,I belive that LINUX world will be impacted a lot. Like the guys of work with mainframes (it still with us on the large companies) but nobody think much on it.

If Mandriva survives the latest bankruptcy threat, it'll be the KDE distribution of choice. They have had a deep, mutual development program for some time, and it shows in the smooth functionality of everything KDE on the Mandriva OS.

It also provides the greatest number of options, there's more plasma desktop widgets, run launchers and monitoring tools available than with any other distribution I've seen.

With Canonical's move, it would behoove the KDE developers to redouble their efforts with Mandriva, perhaps even help with whatever is needed to keep the company going.

btw on that Mandriva news front, all I know for sure is that updated packages, bug fixes and security updates, continue to come in from the Mandriva team. In fact, January and February have been the busiest months for updates from Mandriva in a long time, perhaps a couple years.

Anyone?

They already have that. It's called "Mac".

Bummer. I haven't and don't care much for Gnome; I've always liked KDE. When I found Kbuntu a few years ago, I've used it ever since.

I have to say.... I don't much care for the current iteration of Gnome very much. I just checked out the Fedora 16 "default" Gnome iso, loaded it up on hard drive, then almost immediately loaded on the KDE desktop. I could maybe get used to the Gnome, and it has a couple of interesting features.... but it seems cumbersome to me somehow.

Kubuntu is still an "official" ubuntu version. The difference is that they are not paying the developers to produce it, rather they are going the community way of doing it. Just like all other Ubuntu versions.

KDE will not die due to this, OpenSuse is still a KDE distro, KDE is still available in repo's

Mint have just released a KDE version..

???