Young females need to be more inspired to learn and create for themselves, rather than pigeonholed by what society demands of them.
I feel the market is heavily male dominated but that comes from the culture we perpetuate, it's not a matter of "who is better at what" it's simply a numbers game. More men are in tech because more men are interested in it and actually apply their skills. The worst thing to do would be to project a false equality by placing incapable women in roles where they don't have the knowledge.
But then again, plenty of businesses have upper management with severe technical phobia - regardless of gender.
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I'm not sure anyone is suggesting quotas for women in IT, and it certainly seems that more men are enthusiastic about technology. But as you say, we should be inspiring our young people to think differently. After all, the status quo is the way things are, rather than the way they shoud be...
Totally don't agree that "more men are interested in it" you only have to look at all the women tinkering with their PDAs all day walking up and down the street.
I've never noticed any real difference in interest between men and women when it comes to IT.
I think the problem is (a) they perceive it as being male-dominated and are in some cases actively discouraged from taking it up and (b) more of a 9-5 mentality due to family commitments, although that is fading imv, both because of a change in traditional gender roles and also because a lot of IT work can be done from home now.
Frankly the amount of stereotypes I'm seeing put forward in these comments are absurd, stuff about men being more logical and women being more emotional, are you kidding me? I've seen far more backstabbing and tantrums from men in IT positions than women on a per capita basis.
I've never noticed any real difference in interest between men and women when it comes to IT.
I think the problem is (a) they perceive it as being male-dominated and are in some cases actively discouraged from taking it up and (b) more of a 9-5 mentality due to family commitments, although that is fading imv, both because of a change in traditional gender roles and also because a lot of IT work can be done from home now.
Frankly the amount of stereotypes I'm seeing put forward in these comments are absurd, stuff about men being more logical and women being more emotional, are you kidding me? I've seen far more backstabbing and tantrums from men in IT positions than women on a per capita basis.
As many people such as yourself seem to conflate products with IT these days, I thought I would take a moment out of my busy IT-filled day to correct your thinking a bit.
Would you say that using deodorant makes you interested in chemistry or chemical engineering? Would you say that driving a car makes you interested in engineering? Does taking the little purple pill make you interested in pharmacology?
Please stop the ridiculousness of implying that if someone uses a technological appliance/product that this somehow infers they are at all capable or interested in IT. The idea is ludicrous.
As for the rest of your comment... I'll leave that to the philosophy majors out there.
Would you say that using deodorant makes you interested in chemistry or chemical engineering? Would you say that driving a car makes you interested in engineering? Does taking the little purple pill make you interested in pharmacology?
Please stop the ridiculousness of implying that if someone uses a technological appliance/product that this somehow infers they are at all capable or interested in IT. The idea is ludicrous.
As for the rest of your comment... I'll leave that to the philosophy majors out there.
I was like WHAT?? When I read "you only have to look at all the women tinkering with their PDAs all day walking up and down the street." Are you serious??? There is a MAJOR difference between a USER (what you described) and an IT person. I worked in the IT field for 8 years (I'm a woman) and know that many USERS are NOT nor SHOULD NOT ever claim to be in the IT field. They may like to "tinker" with their (PDA??...how about iPhone or Droid) with their piece of technology, but that does NOT mean they can repair it. Not many women do have interest in tech jobs in my own observation and I personally don't know why not. I've always had an interest and learned pretty much on my own (a little in college) and loved it.
it's developed from. My brother loves, I mean LOVES, his iphone, but he cannot stand the technical side of the device. He's interested in my field, but he has told me time and again he wouldn't have the patience for my job. He likes technology, but he is just interested in it working, not in supporting the device and how it works. So just because a person likes technology and the newest gadget doesn't mean he or she is fit for an IT role or even interested in an IT role.
Ideals are seldom an accurate method of analysis. There is certainly less female involvement with IT, but it is growing-there are certainly 'stereo-types' existant in our society concerning Boys being more interested in technology and 'how stuff works' than are Girls. With the increasing emphasis placed on opportunities for involvement in technology for females, there is a rise in quantities. In Asian countries women are largely involved with IT component manufacture-the CPU etching industry in particular, women are great with their dexterity and fine control. Yes, I think the female scarcity in IT departments is principally a culturallly driven matter-it is all bound up with a particular perspective that is, thankfully diminishing. Watch this space, it will change.
I am a female, I have work in telecom/IT support for over 15 years. In all of the jobs that I have worked, I am usually one of AT THE MOST three women. For example, When you call for IT support, anywhere, figure out how many times you speak to a female as opposed to a male. Maybe to for telephone support to set up a personal email like outlook, but for the down to the wire troubleshooting support (that a customer is most likely charged for) who do you speak to?
If females choose not to work in a profession does it matter? Nope. Nobody complains about men being under represented in professions. Should more women work in IT? Sure but its not a problem they don't.
What does need to change is society should encourage young women to study technical areas and quit pretending that its just a man's game.
What does need to change is society should encourage young women to study technical areas and quit pretending that its just a man's game.
I agree that women shouldn't be placed into technical roles just because they are under-represented. While women and girls should be given the chance to study and work in technical roles what's really important is that all people are given the opportunity to study and work in roles that interest them and that they have an ability and aptitude for, regardless of their gender. I've been out of high school for a couple of decades now, but I was never discouraged from enjoying the science subjects, nor was I ever told that I wouldn't succeed in science as a career because I was female. Perhaps I was lucky and had exceptionally supportive teachers, but I can't believe that there are a significant number of teachers who would discourage STEM education just because someone is female which leads me to believe that women don't study the subjects because they just don't enjoy them.
I guess my question would be, why don't women enjoy studying IT?
And is it a good idea for society (and the IT department in particular) that half of the population doesn't want to study or work in tech?
And is it a good idea for society (and the IT department in particular) that half of the population doesn't want to study or work in tech?
What a postmodern question. There are traditional gender roles for a reason. Women are more emotional and less rational and logical than men. This does not lend itself to the highly technical, logical, isolated and analytical roles that IT present to them.
I guess if you want to throw stereotypes, we might point out that women have "traditionally" been good at tasks requiring precision and attention to detail.
In the absence of abuse (rock music, etc.) to their ears, they also tend to keep their high-frequency hearing better than I have.
In the absence of abuse (rock music, etc.) to their ears, they also tend to keep their high-frequency hearing better than I have.
'abuse' comes from your volume preference (and headphones!)---not from any particular genre. I ruined mine (somewhat) by working next to jet turbines for a few years.
P.S. *Disco* hurt my ears; crewing a helicopter is what damaged them (Rock and Roll didn't get the chance)....
P.S. *Disco* hurt my ears; crewing a helicopter is what damaged them (Rock and Roll didn't get the chance)....
I don't believe it is only the teachers (though I had a few who clearly thought women couldn't be logical) who discourage girls from tech/science fields. The parents do as well, both through modelling behavior and through actual comments. Society does, by expecting women to be "softer" and "more emotional" than men. Media does - look at your YA shows and books. They're largely about girls who can't function without a boy to save them, and how important looks are. And women are not the only ones who suffer for this. Men do too. How are "soft" men treated in media, by their peers, by their mentors? Told to toughen up, at best. They're more likely to be bullied for it.
If your conclusion is that women don't enjoy studying STEM, you should look at what leads to that end, or you're practicing bad science.
If your conclusion is that women don't enjoy studying STEM, you should look at what leads to that end, or you're practicing bad science.
Men and women have different hormones and chemistry. I personally don't think that Society is the only influence in what career women go into.
Bill
Bill
"they just don't enjoy them" is too simple conclusion. By the http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/enjoy there are many implications in it. Problem imho is our educational system. This is old and not very attractive (still). I hope one day i can see the day then kids really enjoy to go to school including females and they can achieve great results afterwards.
Women are not discouraged from going into IT. Most women just aren't technical minded. Many people aren't. It's even more rare to find a technically minded woman that also has a good head for business. I certainly wouldn't want most of the women I know working in IT. Many women are terrible to work with because of what culture has brainwashed them into being. However, most of the women I have worked with in IT aren't like that. It takes a "different breed" of man or woman to work in IT to enjoy the work and be successful.
And yes, I am also a woman.
And yes, I am also a woman.
Women aren't discouraged from being in IT. As others have already commented (women even), women don't pursue IT careers because they simply don't enjoy the field. In my IT classes in college, few of the women in the major were pursuing networking or programming, instead the women were pursuing graphic arts and e-commerce. I conversed with the women in my basic IT classes to understand what they were interested in and few of them enjoyed the required hardware/software maintenance classes and networking classes for the degree. There was a maverick here and there of course, which was cool with me.
Why shove IT at women when they're not interested? Could it be *shock* that men and women are different? *bites fingers and shivers at the thought*
Why shove IT at women when they're not interested? Could it be *shock* that men and women are different? *bites fingers and shivers at the thought*
I am sure some females like IT and they work better as well. But not all people are same and their interests are same. I am recruiting people into my teams for pas 10 years. I feel there is no point is pushing it on they. The opportunities should be provided and who ever come forward will take the options.
I think women are discouraged from working in IT and that's a bad thing for the long term future of the IT department. It's even worse that there seem to be barely any women in senior management.
Surely we need to work out what is it about working with IT that makes it an unattractive option for half of the population?
I think as the IT department becomes more of a service organisation and less of an engineering department, those IT departments that continue to be unattractive to women will suffer badly.
Surely we need to work out what is it about working with IT that makes it an unattractive option for half of the population?
I think as the IT department becomes more of a service organisation and less of an engineering department, those IT departments that continue to be unattractive to women will suffer badly.
IT, by in large, is a thankless profession. It is difficult. It is the most under-appreciated profession of the STEM professions. People in IT are often devalued, or labeled as being out of touch or difficult to work with and understand, when in reality they more likely just mad geniuses.
They are criticized, cajoled, and pressured to "develop a business mindset". And for those rare birds that can achieve such success, they are under constant pressure with ridiculous workloads.
The question is not "why don't women,..." but rather "Why would anyone...".
They are criticized, cajoled, and pressured to "develop a business mindset". And for those rare birds that can achieve such success, they are under constant pressure with ridiculous workloads.
The question is not "why don't women,..." but rather "Why would anyone...".
Of course, some of the MALE personalities in the IT department might discourage women, but that's a whole other controversy. Otherwise, I've worked in a few places with women. A few of them were managers. While I may not have fully agreed with how some things were done and handled, I didn't blame it on their being women. People are different all around. I've run into men that made some wacky decisions at times as well.
And this comment, "Big gaps remain between what female CIOs and male CIOs see as the benefits of women in the IT department. While 49 per cent of the female CIOs interviewed said women have a positive impact on efficient decision-making, only 18 per cent of male CIOs thought women contribute positively in this area." is probably taken COMPLETELY out of context. I would answer alike with the male CIOs... But only because I'd think a woman would contribute the SAME as a man. No more, no less.
And this comment, "Big gaps remain between what female CIOs and male CIOs see as the benefits of women in the IT department. While 49 per cent of the female CIOs interviewed said women have a positive impact on efficient decision-making, only 18 per cent of male CIOs thought women contribute positively in this area." is probably taken COMPLETELY out of context. I would answer alike with the male CIOs... But only because I'd think a woman would contribute the SAME as a man. No more, no less.
I'm still not convinced it's in the long term interest of any industry to put off half the potential pool of recruits out there...
To clarify on the numbers, 18 per cent of male CIOs say women contribute positively to efficient decision making, 77 per cent say it has no impact and five percent say women have a negative impact on decision making.
To clarify on the numbers, 18 per cent of male CIOs say women contribute positively to efficient decision making, 77 per cent say it has no impact and five percent say women have a negative impact on decision making.
Personally I think the entire structure needs a radical management change. It's not just woman who don't want to work in IT, an ever increasing number of the males I've worked with don't want to work there either! It's not the technology, it's the way people try to manage. Why it's expected that someone good at technology is going to make a good manager I have yet to fathom. I was the first female technical manager in a company who had been there for 30 yrs at the time...and they recruited plenty of female engineers (of which I was one) and yes I have a business head...GEC training made certain of that!
I agree with much of what you say.
"It's not the technology, it's the way people try to manage."
I speak as someone who has a CV that would make lace look solid. I studied science at uni and in between did the family bit. In short, I have the sort of CV that most managers don't even get to see.
The problem I face is that hiring managers - across the board pretty well - are looking for what people have done. They are not looking to see what a person might have learned whilst not working ...
In this respect, IT is no different. A woman with a 5-10 year gap in her CV is not going to find it easy getting a job no matter how good her qualifications are.
"It's not the technology, it's the way people try to manage."
I speak as someone who has a CV that would make lace look solid. I studied science at uni and in between did the family bit. In short, I have the sort of CV that most managers don't even get to see.
The problem I face is that hiring managers - across the board pretty well - are looking for what people have done. They are not looking to see what a person might have learned whilst not working ...
In this respect, IT is no different. A woman with a 5-10 year gap in her CV is not going to find it easy getting a job no matter how good her qualifications are.
Is it how fast a decision is made, or the overall quality of the end result of the decision?
In my experierence, even if discrimination isn't overt the majority in power flock together...
In my experierence, even if discrimination isn't overt the majority in power flock together...
I do appreciate the article and the thought, as a woman in IT. Certainly an avenue worth pursuit. Pretty amazed at some of the very privileged and very 'programmed by society and media' comments.
While I have enjoyed some of the relative benefits of being in 'IT', I also experience the disadvantages of the white male bully attitude as well. If you are not white, if you are not male, then you do not fit into the 'good old boys' framework that dominates both the profession and society. I quite agree that this is a disadvantage to all of us.
While I have enjoyed some of the relative benefits of being in 'IT', I also experience the disadvantages of the white male bully attitude as well. If you are not white, if you are not male, then you do not fit into the 'good old boys' framework that dominates both the profession and society. I quite agree that this is a disadvantage to all of us.
10years and counting in IT......female as well I couldn't have said it better.....the bullying the good ole boys club.......right on point.....back in the day the end user would treat you like you didn't know what you were talking about.
Personally, I think the whole premise misses the mark. Why is it that it is assumed that only women in IT have the acumen to bring the "touchy/feely" that is needed to make the business side happy? As a woman in IT, I am sick and tired of people assuming I am any different from my male counterparts. Having a woman on a team does not miraculously cure your morale, team cohesion, and impression-on-the-business-side issues. Having an environment where management is responsive to and supportive of the team and the business does. Imagine that. There is no panacea. It's just work. Like anything else.
Agreed that having a female in the group is not a magic pill, though the dearth of female IT types does create a vacuum in the IT department. *As a general rule*, most women will also have a decent amount of non-IT experience, which IT management should tap in order to learn how to interact with non-IT groups better.
I think that IT suffers from the same ills as other groups that keep hiring clones of themselves and don't foster diversity within their groups. And consider an applicant's aptitude for learning the job at hand, not just their work history. I think there are a lot of women out there who could really bring a lot to the table, but don't have typical IT credentials.
I think that IT suffers from the same ills as other groups that keep hiring clones of themselves and don't foster diversity within their groups. And consider an applicant's aptitude for learning the job at hand, not just their work history. I think there are a lot of women out there who could really bring a lot to the table, but don't have typical IT credentials.
Half of our IT. department are female and they are in every group except the Network Engineer and System Administrators groups. We have several IT managers and our Director is female at this time. I think one big factor of the influx of males in the IT industry, currently, is that guys are more interested in video games and there is a majority of young men studying programming these days for the purpose of going into video game development at first. Then of course in many cases, something else catches their eye in the programming field as they take different classes such as physics or robotics, etc.
because so many games are extremely sexist towards women. If males currently get into studying comp sci because of their interest in gaming, and games are very sexist, then you're never going to get women interested in comp sci via that route.
Of course some games are purely made with "sex sells" in mind. But the vast majority are not designed that way.
So, how are games sexist? Is world of warcraft? Is Warband? What about the Sims? Racing games? Is Carmageddon Sexist?
So, how are games sexist? Is world of warcraft? Is Warband? What about the Sims? Racing games? Is Carmageddon Sexist?
If you search for sexual harassement and gaming, I'm sure you can find many instances of reported sexual harassment within MMO and MMORPG gaming communities. See also: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/23928_Women_In_Magic_The_2012_Edition.html
Plus, I think it's obvious that sexism is part of the culture if you just look at the way female characters are so often visually depicted in games. Even racing, arcade games. Even Facebook games! Generally, when women are depicted in games, they're overly sexed or used as objects. So, it's not just the design of the games. It's the community as well.
Meanwhile, here are 2 examples of sexism at tech conferences, 2012 SXSW and a 2009 Ruby conference. Female first timers at either of these conferences would probably never return.
http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-at-gogaruco/
http://motherjones.com/media/2012/04/silicon-valley-brogrammer-culture-sexist-sxsw
Plus, I think it's obvious that sexism is part of the culture if you just look at the way female characters are so often visually depicted in games. Even racing, arcade games. Even Facebook games! Generally, when women are depicted in games, they're overly sexed or used as objects. So, it's not just the design of the games. It's the community as well.
Meanwhile, here are 2 examples of sexism at tech conferences, 2012 SXSW and a 2009 Ruby conference. Female first timers at either of these conferences would probably never return.
http://www.ultrasaurus.com/sarahblog/2009/04/gender-and-sex-at-gogaruco/
http://motherjones.com/media/2012/04/silicon-valley-brogrammer-culture-sexist-sxsw
I have spoken with many gamer girls, and most don't mind, or actually like the fanciful outfits female characters often get.
As for sexual harassment, well, what do you expect for rich 12 year olds playing MMO's? Parents need to beat sexism out of their kids at a young age (while the bruises still heal quickly)
As for sexual harassment, well, what do you expect for rich 12 year olds playing MMO's? Parents need to beat sexism out of their kids at a young age (while the bruises still heal quickly)
with the sole purpose of distracting pubescent males while I unload on them with a flak cannon.... 
Hint, it's not women. I will consider it equal when games equally show gnarly women scoring the hot dudes, or at least only the hot dudes scoring the chicks .
.
Women are not raised to embrace anything math, science or logic based. There have been studies that show that boys are given more help by teachers than girls are. Most times the teachers have no realization they are doing this either. These stereotypes are so ingrained in our society.
If a (female) child is not encouraged at a young age the chance that the child will want to pursue it later on is greatly diminished. And some great potential goes untapped.
To those who think having few women in the profession - it's really difficult to know what you are missing if you never had it. It would be interesting to do a follow up study with the same people, asking them if they have closely worked with female techies in the past, then compare the results. I have a sneaking suspicion there would be a strong correlation between perceived value of women in IT and exposure to female techies.
There have been numerous studies that show most successful ventures have a healthy amount of diversity contributing to success. My take on this is the diversity of thought processes. IT does not operate in a vacuum. It would benefit from having more women not only for brainstorming purposes but also for interacting with the non-IT world, half of which are women.
And at this point in time, most of the women techies will have a lot of experience operating in the non-IT world. If IT sought input from people from 'the other side' they could improve interactions and their reputation in the process.
If a (female) child is not encouraged at a young age the chance that the child will want to pursue it later on is greatly diminished. And some great potential goes untapped.
To those who think having few women in the profession - it's really difficult to know what you are missing if you never had it. It would be interesting to do a follow up study with the same people, asking them if they have closely worked with female techies in the past, then compare the results. I have a sneaking suspicion there would be a strong correlation between perceived value of women in IT and exposure to female techies.
There have been numerous studies that show most successful ventures have a healthy amount of diversity contributing to success. My take on this is the diversity of thought processes. IT does not operate in a vacuum. It would benefit from having more women not only for brainstorming purposes but also for interacting with the non-IT world, half of which are women.
And at this point in time, most of the women techies will have a lot of experience operating in the non-IT world. If IT sought input from people from 'the other side' they could improve interactions and their reputation in the process.
...I don't see any sexual bias in this corner of the world at least. There are plenty of professors here in my place of residence at least, with doctorates, who are female. My math, science, history, hell even the Computer Science director at my school, Colorado Mesa University, are female. I'm not sure where this is coming from as I don't see the problem here at least?
Pretty much every study says girls are better students in school overall.
Though I have trouble remembering many girls in my classes, most skipped class so they could hang around outside smoking and doing drugs while he guys all graduated.
...because they tend to be better at sitting still for long periods of time and suppressing their need to burn off energy. But if girls are such good students why doesn't it translate into better careers?
Just as I think there is a subtle bias against women in IT I also think there is bias against boys in the typical school environment, at least at the elementary level.
Unfortunately there is bias whereever you look. The only way to improve things is to expose the issues so they can be addressed.
Just as I think there is a subtle bias against women in IT I also think there is bias against boys in the typical school environment, at least at the elementary level.
Unfortunately there is bias whereever you look. The only way to improve things is to expose the issues so they can be addressed.
To expand on the teacher comment, assuming that is what bristles commenters most, just as girls receive less help for math & science I'm pretty sure it has also been shown that boys tend to get less help in the language arts. The point is that our society has bias and children are affected by this from a very young age.
As for the follow up comment, that one was a risky one to put out there. While writing this I was specifically thinking about a female IT manager that did a real bang up job of creating vapor ware at one of my past jobs by making such a fundamental, stupid mistake. She used her influence to have resident guru canned as not being a 'team player' for saying her plan would fail. She left before the other shoe dropped.
Like it or not and as a general rule, IT has a reputation problem, much of which has to do with perception. I'm not saying women are the magic pill, rather that hiring *anyone* with a different background who has the appropriate qualifications and taking advantage of those differences will help IT.
As for the follow up comment, that one was a risky one to put out there
. While writing this I was specifically thinking about a female IT manager that did a real bang up job of creating vapor ware at one of my past jobs by making such a fundamental, stupid mistake. She used her influence to have resident guru canned as not being a 'team player' for saying her plan would fail. She left before the other shoe dropped.Like it or not and as a general rule, IT has a reputation problem, much of which has to do with perception. I'm not saying women are the magic pill, rather that hiring *anyone* with a different background who has the appropriate qualifications and taking advantage of those differences will help IT.
I wish you would do a poll of Tech Republic members and see how many think this matters.
Women are as represented in I.T. as they want to be. Case in point is my 25 year college graduate daughter. I explained to her the options for a career in I.T. and how in some larger organizations that just being female would give her an advantage because of some artificial quota that was created for diversity. She didn't care. She doesn???t want to do that for a living.
The truth of the matter is that good I.T. is good I.T. regardless of the sex of the provider.
Instead of wasting time writing articles bemoaning an irrelevant fact Tech Republic should write about something that might actually be usable.
Women are as represented in I.T. as they want to be. Case in point is my 25 year college graduate daughter. I explained to her the options for a career in I.T. and how in some larger organizations that just being female would give her an advantage because of some artificial quota that was created for diversity. She didn't care. She doesn???t want to do that for a living.
The truth of the matter is that good I.T. is good I.T. regardless of the sex of the provider.
Instead of wasting time writing articles bemoaning an irrelevant fact Tech Republic should write about something that might actually be usable.
I'd suggest that this is a pretty core issue for IT departments. Too often they are seen as disconnected from the rest of the business. Surely making changes that can make IT seem relevant and useful are a good thing?
Is IT out of contact with the business just because they don't have enough females in their ranks? I think you are looking for a magic cure instead of focusing on the problem. If IT is out of contact with the business then it is probably a communication issue and an article about how IT can communicate better with the business may be a more effective route.
Bill
Bill
We spends on technical training but fail to invest in soft skills. And if we are honest with ourselves I.T. folk are often lacking in this area.
It's way too easy to take any one issue and then pick it apart because it doesn't explain the whole problem. Females in IT is no different. I wholeheartedly agree that women aren't THE answer. But having any segment underrepresented contributes to imbalances.
Personally, I think one of the biggest issues for IT is that there is a dearth of quasi-techies - those who bridge the gap between IT and the rest of the groups. IT works differently, the thought processes are different and if the non-IT groups don't understand what IT is saying and doing it inevitably creates friction. Training budgets are slashed. Many believe that training, for example, does not belong in IT. But IT complains about end users and end users complain about IT. Seems like if IT took ownership of training, kept the trainers in the loop with development projects so they can give input on end users' perceptions and habits and develop effective training for the new stuff it would be a win-win. BTW, many women would do quite well in this role.
Edit - fixed typos
Personally, I think one of the biggest issues for IT is that there is a dearth of quasi-techies - those who bridge the gap between IT and the rest of the groups. IT works differently, the thought processes are different and if the non-IT groups don't understand what IT is saying and doing it inevitably creates friction. Training budgets are slashed. Many believe that training, for example, does not belong in IT. But IT complains about end users and end users complain about IT. Seems like if IT took ownership of training, kept the trainers in the loop with development projects so they can give input on end users' perceptions and habits and develop effective training for the new stuff it would be a win-win. BTW, many women would do quite well in this role.
Edit - fixed typos
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