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Microsoft Surface: iPad knockoff for enterprise? That works

If you're going to knock-off a product, it's never a bad idea to copy from the best. The ipad is basically the only tablet worth copying. Can you imagine if Microsoft were to copy their failed Windows PC Tablet? This time around they would like to succeed so they've looked to the best.

I really appreaciate my iPad and I use it daily for a limited but valuable scope of use.
That said,even with the limited demands I place on it, it locks up, applications crash and it requires updates - Application updates are almost monthly if not more frequent. I demand much more out of my windows laptop than my ipad and I honestly can't recall the last time it crashed. Admittedly I have a Mac at home for my kids and I recently bought one for my parents because I think it is an excellent platform for a particular type of user and I enjoy using them as well. But rooms full of slow, virus laden Windows PCs with smoke rising out them is more the stuff of myth and agenda than reality. I look at the Windows facet of Surface as its primary selling point.

Windows 95?

Today's Windows, version 7 is nothing like what you describe.

Yes, you do need AV, just like Macs. File swaps don't take very long. I cannot remember the last time "Explorer has stopped responding" and I help support 800 PCs.

And the iPad isn't a master of anything, it's too limited.

You're Apple fanboy tattoo is showing.

Is not an Enterprise level of security. The discussion is about a tablet in the Enterprise. It is not a discussion about a tablet that you bring to work.

No Network / Sys Admin would allow merely a "slide to unlock" device access to Enterprise resources.

And seriously, I can't remember the last time I saw a Windows computer crash or "Explorer has stopped responding" and I support over 500 of them at work from Win XP to Win 8.

While there may be some developers who will continue to rely on the keyboard or the trackpad for input, there will be others who will see an opportunity in the touch capabilities of the tablet on the Metro UI.
There are thousands of legacy desktop applications that were designed for a traditional desktop. Microsoft is saying that you don't have to drop them.
I have been using a Windows 8 convertible tablet for a few months now and there are times when a real keyboard is more convenient than an onscreen one. Especially when you want more screen real estate visible.
There are also times when a digital pen is more convenient than your finger. Like when you are taking notes or drawing diagrams. (see MS OneNote).
My point is, can't these input methods coexist?
As the saying goes, "Use the right tool for the job."
Is it so hard to fold the cover back?

It's easy enough to put a 13-character password on it that has to be keyed in before it's usable. At least, on the iPad it is.

I know you can add a more secure way to log in on an iPad but given the choice on a personal device, a typical user would not do it. Only if it is imposed.

>> "Touch a button, slide to unlock, and begin working *right* *now*"
>> Is not an Enterprise level of security.

If it's in the Enterprise, imposed security is somewhat of a given, wouldn't you say? Or does your company not mandate password security requirements?

Management tools for the iPhone/iPad allow an impressive degree of imposed security. In actuality, they're safer in untrusted hands than our fleet of laptops.

While I am aware that you can add security to an iPad, I replied to the "slide to unlock" feature you mentioned in your post.
You said, " You want to copy the iPad? Touch a button, slide to unlock, and begin working right now, with no slow-down, no chug-chug-chug of swap files..."
The iPad feature of "slide to unlock" is not the same as Enterprise -level security.
"Slide to unclock" is a convenience feature so that user doesn't accidentally unlock the device.
Anyone who has possession of the device can slide to unlock.
Only users who know the log in credentials can unlock a device that has been properly secured in the Enterprise.
I dare say that it will take longer to enter login credentials and verify those credentials than it would to slide to unlock so it would defeat your notion of quick access to the device.
I can however, think of a slide to unlock that would be slightly faster and significantly more secure. That is a fingerprint reader.
Unfortunately, most consumer devices do not inclue one.

Honestly not trying to be condescending: Have you ever used a password-protected iWhatever? It's pretty easy. Slide, enter numeric unlock code, you're in. There's no verification delay or anything. You can set a sizable code if you want. You can also define what happens after too many wrong guesses.

Once you're in, there's arguably no need to enter credentials in each app. The phone is secured any time it's locked. The paranoid may disagree, though.

The fingerprint scanner is a cool idea, and I think it was the Atrix that had one.. Didn't work out very well, from what I hear. The accuracy was such that you could pick from having to scan multiple times before it would successfully unlock, to the other extreme where anyone's finger-like appendage could unlock it. I don't know if that's just a limitation of today's affordable scanners, or just a poor implementation.

but I'm pretty sure that the iPad does not support AD integration or GPO so it is not useful in my Enterprise if the user needs access to Enterprise resources. So no matter what kind of other security features it may have, it will require a different managment system.
Why incur that extra cost if I don't need to?

MS Surface Pro supports AD/GPO out of the box PLUS my Fujitsu and Lenovo tablets (running on Win 8) include fingerprint readers that work very well. And they wake up very quickly.

As an IT professional for a large organization, I see the amount of work it takes to keep a fleet of PCs running. We have more front-line helpdesk guys than all other IT combined. Now, to be fair, that's not just PC support -- it's also printers, and applications, etc.

And yes, we do allow enterprise use of Apple devices. (Or BlackBerry, or Android. I don't make the rules, but if I did, I also wouldn't care. Whatever the user wants to use is fine, provided it meets some base requirements.) We have one service (well, no, two -- BB has its own) for managing portable devices. We set policies, hand out the URL for automatic setup to the end-user, and that's about it. Ironically, people talk about the security risks, but we can remotely brick them, they're way more difficult to get into without authorization, and easier to enforce usage restrictions than PCs.

For the PCs, we have a couple guys that build images, we have an AV server that requires care and feeding to make sure clients and definitions are being pushed. We have a patch-management system for which we do the same. We have another tool for software inventory. It's nowhere near as set-and-forget, but that's the difference between a closed device and the herd of cats that is a general purpose computer. It's not a fair comparison, but it doesn't have to be. The "toys" are much easier to manage, and the management tools are much more reliable. Not fanboy-ism, just fact.

Then there's support. When someone drops a phone, we may have to replace it because of a broken screen. Other than that, there just isn't much in the way of support. The number of tickets where a user has issues with the OS or the base software (browser, etc.) of a mobile device is non-existent in comparison. Of course, there ARE more PCs, so it's hard to say exactly what the real ratio is, but there are very very few instances of where it should work but doesn't on, e.g., an iPad, or even a Droid.

But the biggest difference is the immediacy of the portable platforms. You're right, there isn't smoke billowing out of my Windows 7 box. I never said there was. But, every morning, I wait for the stupid hard drive light to quit shining after unlocking, while all my open apps are reloaded from the swap file. For some reason, when I click the "Bold" button in Word, my computer has to load something from disk for 5-10 seconds before the font changes. I don't have a dozen apps in my systray, and I'm not working with huge documents. A dozen browser tabs, an Excel sheet, a command prompt, a couple Notepads, and a file browser window. I have 2GB of RAM, that shouldn't be a strain. It gets worse the longer it's been since a reboot. I know, I should reboot more than once a month or two -- but on the other hand, should I? I don't reboot my phone that often...

There have been times when I've chosen to open a PDF from my iPhone rather than on the computer because Acrobat takes way too long to load, and scrolling performance is BETTER on the phone. Seriously... that's just ridiculous.

How long did it take before full-screen YouTube videos could play without dropping frames on a brawny PC? Yet I can twirl an iPad in circles, letting the rotation flip the video in full-screen, without skipping a beat.

So .. the computer and my phone are both computers. The difference is the software. I don't want my phone running the full version of Windows. I don't EVER want to see InstallShield before taking a call. Just... work. Please.

I have the same viewpoint regarding tablets. They're convenient because they don't have the baggage of a full general purpose OS. Bringing that mess forward to more limited hardware is not a great long-term solution. It's never worked in the past, why would it work now?

Please come back to earth, you are not talking to grade schoolers here, we know the truth, We know the difference between the load times on solid state memory and hard drives that you are exaggerating, the video frame rates on ancient business class machines and modern desktops, and of course lets look at the fact that you really do not support any Android based apps, they work or they dont, just like the limited ipad apps... You really should learn to argue with facts and not fallacies, especially when you are arguing with the developers, designers and users of the products you claim to know but really do not. Come on. Keep this an Adult and Honest discussion. Your comparison of how long it took Youtube video to mature is a flagrant give away of your real position in this discussion,

Nwallette, good to see someone with common sense post. Thanks.

The idea behind tablets and pads is being able to take power with you without the inconvenience of size... dont need the power? take a crayon and coloring book. Driver issues are the result of software development issues, something Apple doesnt suffer because Apple doesnt ALLOW the development of software by competitors, an issue that has almost put them out of business multiple times. And those fancy touch screens, great until the first time it gets cracked and you NEED to access it. Trade off reliability for gimmicks... not in the real world, and THAT is why Apple is still just a kids computer.

Apple most certainly does allow the development of software by competitors--and anyone else that wants to develop. The difference is that Apple bothers to check and at least attempt to vet that software before it goes up for sale--unlike the others.

Those fancy touch screens? Here you really need to do some research. Even when the device has been run over by a car and the screen a total spider's web of cracks, the owner can still use it in most cases--unlike, again, their competitors.

It is a start in MS's attempt to make Windows-8 a possible viable option for the enterprise marketplace--now that it includes a very rudimentary keyboard. It certainly is no substitute for a full-size, traditionally shaped keyboard, for serious data entry. But, it is better than using one or two fingers to tap in text. "Close, but no cigar" as a laptop or desktop replacement.

Since iPad was the first widely successful tablet design of its kind then its easy (if not meaningless and odiotic) to call Surface an iPad knockoff particularly since ALL contemporary tables are, just as all flat screen TVs are knock offs of each other. It's the differences between the offerings that are meaningful and worthy of discussion. I don't have a computer religion or a favorite team. I want the best functionality, compatiblity and cost effectiveness. I am intrigued by this new device and it if joins domains and can be subject to group policy and run Outlook natively out of the box, then I think its going to distingush itself as have unique and valuable capabilities, whether it looks like what it is (a tablet) or not.

Where do the figures for non-desktop use in the Enterprise come from? I just do not believe them. If it is from questionnaires then the person being questioned is not providing accurate information but providing massaged figures for whatever reason. I do not know one single person who uses anything other than a desktop for mass email management or long chunks of working. If you use a Smartphone or tablet/slate/pad for working then you run the risk of health and safety issues and efficiency issues. The desktop is not dead and this is a complete red herring spun into fact, when it is not, by ill informed media and wanna-be hobbyist bloggers.
I welcome the Surface as it looks like it has a potential to touch type. As a company director I look for efficiency, accuracy and common sense target hitting and using a slate/pad or tablet, whatever brand. Maybe Surface will address this.

I can envision the Surface Pro in a docking station with a full size keyboard and a second monitor replacing a desktop for some people.
- Not for processor intensive applications but certainly for MS Office stuff.
- and only if there is a need for mobility

A voice of REASON! A tablet is a Niche device! take it to a meeting for the review of data, use it for point of use data acquisition use it in the field, use it as a communications device but STOP trying to claim that its a desk top killer. They tried that with notebooks and it still has not happened. A tool is just a tool and you use the right tool for the job. Look to the Wrench Market, look
at all the magic miracle wrenches that have come and gone over all the decades, and still the original combination and socket wrenches still are number one...

This is the only place I can actually see a Windows 8 (non-RT) tablet making sense over Android or iPad. It actually COULD be your desktop. Most office folks do not need the horsepower available to them. With mounted network shares, an LCD panel, a dock, and a KB/mouse, a tablet could be a viable low-power workstation that slips easily into a backpack, purse, briefcase, or carried by hand. If you're a frequent meeting attendee, this is ideal. Perhaps more ideal than a laptop.

BTW, notebooks at my (large) company are close to 1:1 with desktops. In many departments, desktops are rare. For some, there's no expectation of out-of-office work, so the desktops outnumber laptops. Hence the 50/50 average.

"Most office folks do not need the horsepower available to them."

It could be, but since it costs almost twice as much as that overpowered desktop, why spend the money? We're about 70% desktop.

That's why I added "if there is a need for mobility".

Simply because it does run Windows or something very close to it. I have and use a lot of software. WINDOWS software. Do I need an iPad? If I do I can't for the life of me figure out what software I would run on it that I also run on my main computer. A tablet that would let me run my software on either tablet or PC is a real useful thing. I've had an Android Tablet (well still have an Android tablet, and a good one Lenovo ThinkPad Tablet with 64Gb - except for email and calendar and an occasional pdf or ppt file it sits in the charger) and the problems were always transferring anything that I did with it to my main environment. (exception being EverNote).
One of the biggest bottlenecks and hassles that I have as a USER of mobile devices is that they either limit you to a very few things you can do, or they simply won't do the task you need to do in a way that let's you have your work product available for use when you get back to your main computer. If you are using an Apple desktop/laptop or a Windows based PC/laptop, using a different OS on a mobile device just leaves you with an incomplete solution. I'm always going to prefer using my QuadCore powered laptop when I have it on my desk for large data bases and complex spreadsheets and accounting programs, but when I go out of the office, that compact tablet that will function in the same environment is worth waaayy more than an android or iPad - cause I can do the same thing and make the same documents and files.
Case closed.

I currently have an android device. I've had one for several years and noticed quite a bit of misinformation in your post.

For one, on my device, I'm able to install quite a large number of apps which allow the use of MS Office formats. There are also quite a large number of apps which allow the use of Open Standard formats (preferable to closed source for good reasons). What this means is that I have the ability to use the same files in the same ways from my mobile device as well as my main laptop with one exception. With my mobile device, I have a smaller screen and I'm mobile.

Another point of contention in your post is how you mentioned having your product available when you get back to your main computer. Do you mean your main computer has synced all of your work while you were away or do you mean having to plug your device in to your main machine, waiting on it to sync and then working.
With my mobile device, there are quite a few apps which allow for wireless syncing on the go. I have the exact same files, same versions of those files, on both my main machine and my mobile device.

In other words, my device works just as well for every usage scenario you've given as the MS Surface Tablet will. Of course, since Android is given away freely and Windows is not, with the same hardware, Android would cost less.

To each his own, pay more if you want but I'll stick with Android.

go about the issue of syncing up and dealing with micro screens and so forth. there are far too many people who do real world data entry in the field that android toys just do not fill the need... the TV commercials geared to consumer use not withstanding.

While I don't agree, I would see there is potential merit in not using an iPad for custom data entry since you'd be limited to apps in the App Store. On an Android, however, the development possibilities are greater. So would they be on a Windows 8 tablet.

Either way, if an existing or custom-developed app can offer a front-end that is touch-centric and works with a tablet paradigm in mind, then the whole "toy" argument (which is not so much an argument as an attempt to belittle the product) falls apart. The difference between a "toy" and a productive device comes down to software and feasibility for a particular need. If data entry is your deal, and your particular form of data entry lends itself toward mobile work (RFID, inventory, nursing ...) and can be entered conveniently via touch (checkboxes, buttons, ranges of values ...) then *any* tablet is potentially viable.

The minute you have to strap on a keyboard to make it efficient, you've essentially created a laptop. Why not just use a laptop then? They have solid keyboards, for one, and not a floppy cover. Tool, meet job.

Regardless, there's no great benefit from this being a Windows device. If it's going to be touch-centric, it needs to be a new app at this point. Using mouse-centric apps by touch is the opposite of ergonomic. So there's really no legacy platform advantage to call on. On the other hand, it's a full OS shoe-horned into a mobile device, so it's likely to incur more overhead than purpose-built mobile OSes.

This works the other way, too. A mobile OS moved to the desktop is not built with the strengths of stationary computing in mind. Touch UI on a desktop is currently not practical, so again, there's no real advantage to being able to execute the same application.

So, what's the point of getting excited about running the same apps in both form factors again?

I work at Biotech company where we have many large cleanroom areas. I cannot allow laptops to pass in and out of the clean rooms due to concerns over cross-contamination.
Laptops suck in dust and blow them out with their fans. This is not good for going in and out of cleanrooms.
I could dedicate laptops to each room but that would get expensive. Laptops are also awkward & heavy when you don't have a flat surface to put them down for data entry. (many areas in our cleanrooms)
It looks like the Surface Pro doesn't have a fan. A simple alcohol wipe of the device will allow me to move them in and out of the cleanrooms.
My staff also wear surgical gloves while working so a typical touch screen is not helpful. But the Surface Pro has digital pen input.
I have a lot of experience with digital pen input on Windows tablets. Anything you can do with a mouse, you can also do with a digital pen.
A digital pen is great for filling out electronic lab notebooks using MS OneNote. It's much easier to write an equation with a pen than trying to type one out.
I am thinking that we could use XenApps / Citrix Receiver for all of our in-house developed Windows-based applications we might not want to load on the device.
The great thing is, I don't have to build a new app or design a new infrastructure to support these devices. They already work in my Microsoft environment.
So yeah, I think I have a practical use for the Surface Pro.

Why move them out of the clean rooms at all? Other than periodic maintenance, of course.

The issue is we need the computers to be mobile so that they can get near the large equipment to control the equipment, take readings, read manuals, etc..
Our current solution is fanless thin clients on mobile carts with large batteries dedicated to each room. It's a bit clunky but it works.

You, or your company can create whatever apps you need and install them direct without going through the app store. This has already been done so many times for the iPad it's silly.

I will agree with your second paragraph, but you again miss the possibilities with your third; though I will agree that relying on mouse-centric apps is a major part of why the touch UI on Windows failed for 11 years. JJFitz does prove that legacy apps are usable, but I'll agree with you that they're not necessarily the most efficient. OneNote is good for handwriting equations, etc., but I'm not sure OneNote can automatically convert those equations into computer-understandable text where a dedicated math app might.

In general, while it seems you do understand most of the advantages and disadvantages, you overlook both the short-term and long-term changes involved. It's not that touchUI on a desktop isn't practical so much as the desktop's form factor isn't practical for touch; you need to bring the display close enough to make touching it easier and yet still leave room on your desk to use a real keyboard when necessary. The mouse is now obsolete; it's just a matter of time before it disappears entirely.

>> You, or your company can create whatever apps you need and install them direct without going through the app store.

How? Without jailbreaking? I'm interested, not questioning your knowledge.

>> It's not that touchUI on a desktop isn't practical so much as the desktop's form factor isn't practical for touch

I don't think I see the difference. Seems largely semantics. Touch UI on a typical workstation setup (better?) is impractical. At least right now. I realize it's chicken-and-egg, but I disagree that the best way to solve this paradox is to thrust ALL existing Windows users into a touch-optimized UI in the course of one version.

Instead, bring the technology to niche markets (ala iPad, and industry-targeted applications) and let it trickle down. It may be the slow approach, but when it comes to drastic modifications of workflow, that's probably for the best.

The mouse has been around in home and office computing since the 80s. It may be dying, but I don't think it's going anywhere overnight.

First, all you need to do is get a developer's kit for iOS; most of the major corporations I know who are supporting the iPhone/iPad have it and have created their own in-house apps which can be loaded onto any in-house device as necessary. It's not jailbreaking and it's definitely supported by Apple.

The difference I'm speaking of between touch UI and desktop form factors is a physical one, not software or technology in general. The typical desktop form factor gives you a vertical display usually between 2 and 3 feet away from your eyes and sometimes farther away. In my own case, my displays are 42"--3.5feet--away. Naturally this means you have to lift your hands from the keyboard and lean forward to touch the display; logically this becomes very uncomfortable and anti-productive very quickly.
On the other hand, Apple and others have submitted patents or flat-out released transforming display stands that lower the display from its vertical position to a near-horizontal one significantly closer to the user. The idea here is to let your display become the I/O device as well as the display when needing to work in a graphical environment while still letting you work upright when working with text-heavy documents. This display layout thus makes it much easier to use the display at the level and angle of a typical typewriter's keyboard and become more, not less, productive.

Windows 8 with Metro UI is trying to be the intermediate step between keyboard/mouse & touch UI. It offers the ability to use both somewhat interchangeably but also strives to push for more touch-based development for workstation-level PCs. This lack of push for touch is why PC tablets have failed to take off for the last 10 years and the encouragement of touch may be where Surface (both pro and RT) migrates the user from the old to the new.

I'm not saying that Apple is doing it better, but Apple does have the advantage of having a viable touch UI on consumer devices now for five years while slowly bringing at least the look of the touch UI to the desktop. Apple's Mountain Lion OS is obviously aimed towards making the OS more 'touchable' and may even have Apple introducing touch-based PCs in the very near future. It's funny that HP and others have been trying to drive users into using Windows' touch UI for just about as long but Apple may actually succeed in migrating users to touch at the desktop sooner. We'll just have to see.

Isn't there a "Parallels" or "Crossover" type product that will allow you to use your usual Windows programs, complete with Win-type files, on an iPad? I know these are available for OSX machines as I use them, but I've never driven an iPad.
If you can't run Win-stuff on an iPad I can see why many people are reluctant to ditch their Win-boxes.
And why a Win-iPad would sell quite well.
The iPad adverts are quite quiet on whether Win-programs are runnable, so could I ask the iPad owners, please?

Simply put, the iPad simply doesn't have the processing power to run something like Parallels, Crossover or even Wine and a full blown Windows application simultaneously -- at least not with a good user experience.

The work-around most people use is to use some form of remote desktop connection to either their own Windows desktop or one they "rent" from a cloud-vendor.

From other discussions, I really should have picked up on that, but I've been a little off, lately.
Thanks for the suggestion. I might even try it if I ever get given a free iPad.
(No, I won't *buy* one. I can't afford it.)

As a consultant I have all my client documents on my laptop. I was at one client's office for a week, but had to attend a meeting at another client's office. Rather than disconnect my big monitor, external keyboard, network patch cable, etc, I grabbed an Iconia Tab W500 with W8RP installed, and went to the meeting. During the meeting an unexpected question came up requiring a document saved on my laptop. I reached into my laptop from the W500 via SkyDrive, pulled up the PDF, and printed 10 copies to the big Sharp MFP just outside the conference room and handed them out in less than 5 minutes. In the same meeting we were discussing moving to Exchange Server and several people wanted to know what Outlook looks like when using Exchange. I pulled the tablet off the keyboard dock and passed it around the conference table so people could have a look. I had Outlook 2010 running on the tablet connected to my Exchange 2010 account. There is no way an iPad or Android tablet could have done this. All my clients are Microsoft-centric with Office, Windows Server, SQL Server, XP/Vista/W7, etc. Having a Microsoft Surface for short visits & meetings that don't justify the laptop would be awesome. I can't wait.

Apple never really had a grasp of real world applications or use, To even get close they had to resort to outside vendors who specialized on microsoft based products. And THAT says it all

... Windows PCs can do--they're basically just two sides of the same coin in most ways. Please do explain how they "had to resort to outside vendors who specialized on Microsoft based products."

Oh, don't take the poster just before you, Mark Cooper's, example; he totally missed out there. even the iPad, as limited as it supposedly is, could have done everything he described without even having to refer back to his laptop. Now, I'll grant he wouldn't have wanted to use Pages or OS X, but through iCloud he wouldn't have needed to manually access the files on his laptop, they would have been on the tablet already--automatically synched no matter what device made the most recent changes. I use it in my own writing and photography. It's also quite easy to print to any wi-fi, AirPrint and internet-enabled printer of which the vast majority of newer printers carry at least one of these wireless printing technologies. In other words, he really doesn't know the capabilities of the competition. On the other hand, he does prove that Win8RT is a viable Windows equivalent that should give Android a real pain in the rear.

I have SkyDrive installed on my W7 laptop, WP7 phone, and my W8 tablet. I have files in SkyDrive that are automatically synced to all my devices. There was 1 document I needed that was not on SkyDrive. I was still able to easily and quickly retrieve it from my laptop and print 10 copies to one of my customers big-iron $10,000 printer/copier that they are NOT going to replace just so someone can print to it with a tablet. I was able to use W8's builtin Microsoft Update to pull down the W7 printer driver and install it on my tablet. I can also scan from this big copier directly to the tablet. Same thing with a medium size Xerox at another office...I can print to it out of the box. I can scan from it directly to the tablet.

Also, I am NOT talking about a Windows Surface RT. I'm talking about a $500 off-the-shelf Iconia W500 with W8RP installed which has a lot of the functionality of the Surface 8 Pro. I'm talking about using software that I've been using daily for years (now Office 2010). I'm talking about printing to customer printers that have been in use for years and using the printer/copier vendors' existing drivers. This is what I believe enterprise has been waiting for.

Sure, the average consumer can go out and purchase wi-fi, AirPrint, Internet printing enabled printers just so they can get their iPads to print. Enterprise and government agencies are not going to do that. They're going to use computers/tablets that fit into their existing infrastructure at the least cost. One of my clients is a local county agency in an Appalachian (read poor) Ohio county. They have 5 locations.The $10000 color MFP is at their admin building. 3 other locations have mere $8000 B&W MFPs. They're going to run these things 'til they are no longer repairable under their service contracts. I can print directly to all those printers with W8 Pro. I don't think this agency is unique.

I stand by my statement that an iPad or Android tablet could not fit into the environments I deal with on a daily basis without changing some part of their infrastructure. Or without some third party service/gizmo.

The Windows Surface Pro brings some premium hardware to the table that I don't have with the Iconia Tab W500. If I don't want to pay the premium I can always get more W500's. I think enterprise will go with a mix of MS Surface and other brand tablets running W8. That is not an option with Apple. It will be kind of iffy with Android and its fragmentation. That is IF you can get the things to work well/easily in an enterprise environment in the first place.

WinRT is WinRT whether it's on your Iconia or Microsoft's Surface. I was giving you credit for proving that the product, when finally released, will be a very strong competitor to both Android and iOS AND that it could herald the downfall of Android as a smartphone OS as long as Microsoft doesn't permit the OEMs to mess with the OS and interface the way Google did Android.

I do still believe the iPad could have done it easily enough, but Windows will always have the advantage in a Windows environment.

Any $10,000 MFP has a network jack. Can we agree on that? OK, so if it does, it probably uses one of a handful of *already* standard protocols to pass data over the network. This isn't a new Apple concept, it's something that is and has been done today. Even in Ohio!

One thing most people don't realize is that printer support is unnecessarily complicated. With a Linux print server, you can get darn near 100% printer compatibility, because most printers speak either PostScript or PCL, or both. Things get dicey for low-end printers because they are often built at a price point that precludes enough hardware processing power to render printer control languages to pixels. (This is akin to the WinModem of yesteryear.)

The whole Windows driver fiasco is just that -- a fiasco. The only reason you need specialized "drivers" to convert the Windows GDI into PCL or PS is because the framework is set up as such. When you download 500MB of software from HP, the vast, vast majority of that is fluff. Custom control panels, popup supply level announcements (handy as they are), free card creation software, etc.

Of course, *some* special features of MFPs are slightly beyond the capabilities of the basic languages, and so proprietary control is necessary to make *full* use. But, for simple get-an-image-to-paper, this can be accomplished by little more than rendering to PS, and throwing that at tcp/9100 on the printer. You can thank Microsoft for making it any more difficult than that.

You can remote into a pc and print from both devices.
logmein, gotomypc, zumocast and Citrix receiver all allow you to remote in.
cloud print allows you to print.
I am sure there are others.

"There is no way an iPad or Android tablet could have done this BY ITSELF."

In other words, the iPad could pretty much from day 1.

nt

from an iPad or an Android? You can scan from said MFP directly to an iPad or Android? You can install Xerox, Lanier, Sharp, Samsung, Brother, etc drivers on an iPad or Android and have full function of said printers. You can run Outlook 2010 (heck, I have the full Office Pro Plus 2010 suite of programs installed on the W500) on an iPad or Android? And while Outlook is running and my remote laptop files and network drives are available, I'm also Remote Desktopped into the main server at the local client office. And I can run the County Bd of Developmental Disability software. Can an iPad or Android do all of that?

Do you now? According to Microsoft themselves:

Microsoft Office Mobile 2010 is not included in Office 2010 applications, suites, or Office Web Apps. Office Mobile must be installed on the device to make edits with Web Apps. Supported mobile viewers for Office Web Apps include Internet Explorer on Windows Mobile 5 or later, Safari 4 on iPhone 3g or later, BlackBerry 4.x, Nokia S60, NetFront 3.4 or later, Opera Mobile 8.65, and Openwave 6.2 or later.

It appears that even the iPad can use Office Pro Plus the same way--by synching through a web browser to your desktop. Not very efficient.

Wireless printers don't necessarily need the mobile device to have a whole crowd of drivers, which kills even the beginning of your rebuttal. Microsoft themselves refuted the second part and as we already know, pretty much any tablet can remote into a desktop machine--some more easily than others.

I'm not denigrating the W500, I'm just pointing out how much the others can do that you seem unaware of.

When I can install the full suite on the W500 and on the Surface 8 Pro.

I can remote in to my desktop from my tablet using software that comes built-in. No add-ons.

I researched the iPad and the original Galaxy Tab. I came really close to purchasing one. One of my clients does in-house software development and was looking for a tablet that would run our Silverlight/WPF front end to our MS SQL Server based LOB software we are developing to replace the current dBase/Clipper/DOS system. We got the W500 with W7 in June 2011 for development purposes. W8DP was released 3 months later. For grins I installed W8DP. It ran the new, in development, front end. And, it ran the current DOS software. We just couldn't do that with Apple or Android. The boss lady at this place did purchase the original Galaxy Tab an is pleased with it's size and email capabilities. She doesn't connect to the Exchange Server with it. She doesn't connect to the company network with it. She doesn't need to VPN, RDP, or VNC with it....she has her Vista laptop for that.

I've taken to carrying the W500 around to various customer sites just to see how it handled in the real world. I have yet to find a printer driver that won't work. Yes, the battery sucks compared to an iPad, but I've always had a 12v inverter in my car, and so far, all my clients have electricity. Yes it's heavy compared to an iPad, but it does include the keyboard, USB ports, HDMI, RJ45, front and rear camera, and Bluetooth. Most of the time it sits on conference tables or desks.

I think the MS Surface Pro will do all of the above, but it will have longer battery life and less weight. It will probably cost twice the price of the W500. I'm not sure if our developer wants to get involved with Windows RT. His toolbox is all set up for W7 and W8 Pro.

I did not say Microsoft Office Mobile 2010. I used the same Office Pro Plus 2010 CD to install to my W7 laptop, then a year or two later to install to the W8 tablet. No syncing through a web browser.

I also installed the same PDF Creator and the same PDF XChange Viewer to both the W7 Pro laptop and the W8 tablet. I installed the exact same printer drivers to both devices for 7 or 8 networked printers at various customer sites. I've used both my laptop and tablet with a Verizon MiFi....not a difficult proposition for any WiFi device. I've watched my Amazon Prime Instant Videos on the tablet with the sound directed to my Jawbone Jambox I use with my Windows Phone 7.5. This is with Internet Explorer 10. It all just works. No fumbling around for 3rd party fixes or workarounds.

By Microsoft's own words which I quoted above, Office Pro Plus will not run on RT. By extension then, you can either be using a full version of Win8Pro, or you're using Office Mobile. The only other option is, as you've described for yourself several times, you're porting back to your laptop/desktop and not doing the work on the tablet itself.

There's nothing wrong with porting, but it implies the wrong thing when you say you're doing it exclusively on the tablet. You are definitely proving that a tablet can and will be a strong productivity tool--against the arguments of so many anti-tablet zealots. However, your arguments insist that what you are using is the only possible way to do it, and that's what I'm arguing about.

Believe it or not, I'm quite glad that Microsoft is demonstrating a strong step forward. They're actually leapfrogging Android by making Win8RT integrate with Win8Pro in the same manner that iOS is integrated with OS X. There are always differences between platforms that mean they will perform certain tasks differently. That doesn't mean that either is exempt from performing that task at all.

Citrix (XenApps) Receiver and a networked desktop.

Windows 8 Release Preview. Currently downloadable from Microsoft. I did NOT say W8RT. I can see how there is some confusion.

Back to printers. Yes, I know about LPR and port 9100. I have an ancient ex-Windows server that's been running Fedora Core 2 set up as a print server for an even older LPT only HP plotter.

Maybe I over complicated my position. I took an off-the-shelf W7 tablet, installed the freely downloadable Windows 8 Release Preview, installed all my existing software including print drivers, and was able to walk in to a meeting and accomplish some real work.

Given the thinner form factor of the newly announced Microsoft Surface Pro with all its announced features, I think it will be a big hit with enterprise.

I admit my work environments are Microsoft/Windows-centric. I go way back with Microsoft. If I was Apple oriented or Linux/Android oriented as are many folks on these forums, I'm sure I could also get these to work given enough 3rd party work-arounds and concessions to some functionality.

But, I'm not (and neither are my clients), Apple or Android oriented. There is now no reason to try to fit in an iPad tablet or an Android tablet at any of my client environments. We now have the option with the Surface Pro (or any of it's clones) of dropping dropping in a Windows tablet as if it was a regular Windows desktop or Windows laptop.

I too manage an almost Windows exclusive environment so my choice for a tablet in the Enterprise would be one that runs Windows directly. So Win 8 or Windows Surface Pro would be the way to go at my company as well. - not Win RT, not Android, and not iPad
My previous posts were in reaction to the thought that you can't print or access other resources in the Enterprise from a non-Windows device. You can but it requires some know-how.
Personally, I miss the days when HP LaserJets had IR ports so you could just aim you laptop or PDA at the printer and print a simple document. (That gives you an idea of how old I am.)

My first story was written on software that required you to put the formatting code straight into the document and printed on a loud dot-matrix printer. (Well, unless you want to include some work on an IBM Selectric typewriter before that.) I've worked with computers from DOS/ProDOS through the various iterations of Windows and Macs and have supported other users for all that time.

I do agree that platforms differ and I also agree that what can be done on one can be done on the other--albeit differently. Microsoft tried to drive technology forward 11 years ago and failed due simply to lack of drive (they really should have pushed much harder for touch-centric software development). The modern tablet is at least as powerful in essence as the machines of that year so to say a tablet (I don't care what platform) can't do something is just plain wrong; it merely lacks the software to do it. Modern peripherals like printers and scanners are wireless, some even internet-accessible which means that almost any tablet has the ability to print on them in much the same way as that "aim your laptop or PDA at the printer and go" you describe.

In other words, things have changed a lot in the last 35 years and each decade has seen it's own game-changing advancements. I can hardly wait to see what computing looks like in 2020.

When I took my first Intro to Computer Science course in college, they had just done away with the punch card readers the year before.
I learned to program COBOL and Pascal on DecWriter terminals. They were terminals without monitors. It looked like a giant typewriter. You typed your program and watched it print directly to paper. (I handwrote them all on paper first.) Then you compiled it and the printer would spit out all of the typos you entered. So you retyped it (editing was a hassle), re-complied it and then ran it.
I was ecstatic when they added monitors. WooHoo! I could cut and paste on screen!
So, I'm kind of old.

I helped Babbage swap out the gears in his difference engine and troubleshot Grace Hopper's code.

But at least some of us aren't letting that stop us from seeing the potential in new technology and trying to find ways to put that potential to practical use.

I'm an implementer. Point me in a direction and I'll get there. I have no illusions that I'm CxO material, and no desire to take on that burden. Somebody's got to deploy those new tools once a useability decision is reached, and should be able to anticipate the problems (not 'opportunities' or 'challenges') that can occur during that deployment.

Apple took what Microsoft developed in tablets over the years and made it work much better for a consumer experience. Microsoft finally has the software and technology to do what it has been trying to do since XP tablets and before. Of course, Ipad showed us all what was possible and pleasing to the masses so in that sense, Microsoft copied, but the MAC copied Xerox and most great companies steal, remake and advance. Windows phone and Windows 8 are not 'me too' products but a different imagining - we'll see how well they take. The Ipad tried to add a keyboard and cover for its use very awkwardly done and not comfortable. Microsoft may have pulled these needs for many off well - and creating a whole environment to work in - computers, laptops, tablets, smartphones, xbox entertainment/games, the cloud, enterprise, etc. We'll see how well they pull it all together!

Apple NEVER had an original idea to start with. EVERY SINGLE so called innovation they have had was just an adaptation of older technology, from someone else's recycling bin. Starting from their original micro processors, made by Motorola, stepping into Intel based cpus, nothing was new or revolutionary. Even when Apple tried to sue Microsoft over window GUI and got slapped down, Microsoft had tablets before the worm fruit MFG, and Apple just sat back waiting for technology to miniaturize before they went forward.Just like with the Mac, Apples big innovation was just a quieter box. No there was never nothing new from Apple in computers, Maybe they should stick to MP3 players, or venture into digital cameras... With out Steve their without the ability to adapt in the computer arena, sad as it may be.

I strongly, STRONGLY recommend you check your history. The Apple II came before any other brand of desktop computer that's in existence today; every other predecessor brand died in the early '80s. Why? Because Apple led the way in one way: taking available off-the-shelf parts and building a functional computer. Credit or blame Steve Wozniak for that first computer--blame Steve Jobs for making it sell.

Apple also was first in miniaturizing and truly developing many of the devices we use today, from the mouse (Xerox's had three buttons and dozens of springs, contacts and other components) to the GUI (Xerox had all but wiped their hands of it--claiming nobody would ever use such a thing) to even the first non-tethered tablet device--called the Newton--which preceded the PDA we all know about by a good 5 years.

True, Apple is better at taking other people's products and making them work right, but they also led the way in many other technologies that were simply ignored by the establishment. As I said, "Do your research." You need it.

If they can put the functions of a laptop onto a tablet with all of the Plus stuff (GUI, very long life for battery, very light weight, ease of use) I'll buy one. The iPAD is great, but too limited.

All those addons for the Surface are simply that, addons to make it a laptop.

Would you rather walk around with one device that does what it says or one device with lots of addons? Personally, I'll stick with having just one device.

because I didn't want a laptop, only the ease of data input that a laptop provides.

I have an Android tablet. I plumped for the Asus TF101. This has fully replaced my main laptop. It's easier for document reading, web browsing, video watching, music playing, casual gaming, video calling, maps/navigation and does e-mail, VPN and office suites almost as well as my old laptop. Using services like Dropbox it's a doddle to transfer my files to and from my workplace machines and thanks to it's network aware file browser I can access anything from my PCs or home NAS. Once I dock this into it's keyboard the office suites and e-mail apps become very close to the experience on the laptop, minus some of the glitz that comes with MS office.

So, in direct answer to your question - because the laptop is an inferior form factor for consumption of media (business or otherwise) and a tablet's shortfalls can be easily mitigated with a GOOD keyboard dock.

Try one yourself - you may be surprised.

I'll be watching the surface with interest. While I obviously love my Asus TF101 a Windows tablet that actually works well would always have been preferable - as long as it's speed it equal to that of Android.

The Surface & your Android are lighter than a laptop and they are "instant on".

I have to admit, that's partly why I bought mine but in reality it's less 'instant on' and more like 'never off'

I'm wondering about the price of the apps.
While iPad's Pages and Keynote cost US$9.99, how much will it cost Word or PowerPoint for Surfaces?
App Store has tons of apps, and a bunch of them are free.

I would think that there will be less expensive apps available. Apple's greatest advantage and the most diiffcult thing for Micsosoft to re-invent will be the eco-system. In my case I we have enterprise type licensing for our productivity apps and its likely that my assurance program will absorb those costs. As for home style users I am sure there will be options, but perhaps not enough to over come the dominance of apple store and itunes.

Tell that to the chinese workers who are dying from benzine poisoning who work at the factories where the ipads are made, or the slave wages they are paid... an Ipad is manufactured for the equivalent labor cost of five dollars US... yes Apple is so environmentally responsible and cares about the people!

Pick on Apple because they are the biggest. At least they are TRYING to improve things over there; what about those other brands.

Oh, and if Apple sticks to their typical modus operandi, Foxconn may have just lost their biggest customer.

Though the surface can use windows apps, will there be any type of real app market available when it hits the shelves? That is what has hurt most other tablet contenders.

and it's free.

No legacy software will.

Jason's had to repeat that at least once already. No enterprise (see that word in the title?) is going to bother with RT. It lacks most of the features that make a Windows-based tablet attractive to corporate IT departments, making it no better (or worse) than tablets running other operating systems.

The article/blog is about Surface Pro in the enterprise.

Why else would he have included "iPad knockoff" in the title?

The Pro was specifically mentioned: "The Pro version of the Surface tablet that most businesses are going to want is expected to cost about the same price as an Ultrabook ??? in the $800-$1000 range."

In my original post I specifically mentioned W8RP...Release Preview. And, off the shelf software.

In your opinion, how easy are the legacy apps to use on a touch-centric device? Does it look and feel to you like something a client would use on a daily basis?

My biggest argument against desktop Windows on a tablet in the past is that mouse-centric apps are more difficult to use, even though navigation is greatly improved. This, and the concession to keep the mouse interface are, in my opinion, why tablets have failed for the last 10 years. Your thoughts on this conclusion?

Right now, Metro IU includes a calendar app and an email app that ties to Outlook Web Access. So my guess is that it will still be available after the release of Win 8.
My other guess is you will be paying the full price for one of the many flavors of Office 2010 or 2013 on the Pro version. Maybe they will offer a package deal but if you already have an Office license for your desktop, you can install it on one other device.

The Win Apps store already has quite a few free apps.

what about apps that do what is needed? when will they become available?

... if you have the skills. Or maybe you could hire someone to write it for you. Waiting for others to read your mind may take a while.

I believe we've come to a point where there is no such thing as an iPad knockoff or copy.

That???s like arguing that all the auto companies are knockoffs of the very first self-powered automobile.
Or that all printers are knockoffs of the first printer.

It???s not a question of whether it looks like an iPad, that???s unavoidable.
It???s a question of apps, cost, functionality, versatility, and usability.
Add to that marketing, and that???s what it takes to be successful in this race (which looks to be a one horse race at this point???).

I don???t believe MS got off to a good start in this race.
1. Late to the gate.
2. No pricing information
3. No release date. When can I buy one of these?!
4. No in-depth specs. What???s the resolution? It???s a tablet, resolution is important.
5. And a presentation where the tablet locks up on IE! That was painful to watch.

So MS has once again fallen on their face and don???t look to be very organized on this launch.

That???s assuming it does launch, we???ve seen this before as well.
Remember 2010 and the death of the Courier?

Is this a review or an ad?

"...will spyware and malware become a big problem on the Surface since it???s running the full version of Windows?"
"...guaranteed to work with their existing applications"

- It will officially only run software available through the Windows Store...
- Only software written using the Windows Runtime (Metro-style apps) can be used on Windows RT. Developers will not be able to create applications to run on Windows RT using the Win32 APIs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT

Windows Runtime apps will be the only apps that can run on the tablet, but those Windows Runtime apps can also be run on a desktop PC running Windows 8. Microsoft already tried putting a full desktop on their last tablet OS attempt and it flat out didn't work. Metro apps should be designed with a touch screen in mind since that is how the metro interface is intended I think.

There are two versons of the Microsoft Surface tablet. The one running Windows RT (the consumer version for ARM tablets) will run software from the Windows Store, but the Pro version of the Surface -- which is the version I'm primarily talking about in this article -- will run the full version of Windows. As such, it has all the power of currently available Windows software, but also all of the same spyware/malware risks.

Does that mean it runs the same applications as Windows 7? The main thing that is stopping me buying a tablet is that my intended uses need some full-function applications. I'm looking for something that will allow me to process my RAW photo files in the field and run a full 3D modelling app so I can build models onsite rather than having to take a myriad of photos and measurements and working from them. There's always a detail you miss and have to guess, or go back and take more pics.

I'm after a replacement for the traditional artists sketchbook that can be used anywhere. I'd like to be running Corel Painter for this with a pressure,tilt and bearing sensitive pen like my Wacom tablet at home.

Maybe this is not the market for these tablets, but it is what I've been waiting for the industry to produce for many years.

I installed Win 8 on my Fujitsu convertible tablet and I have all of the same applications running on it as I had when it was running on Win 7 so my guess is yes, the same programs will run on the Surface Pro.

I like it, but this is just a super slim laptop. The kickstand is needed because the processor and battery are behind the display, and the keyboard isn't massive enough to support the display.
Put out a tablet with both touchscreen and virtual laser keyboard and you have competition for the iPad.

If the Surface is just a super slim laptop, than so is the iPad. I can't stand using my iPad for email because of the lack of any kind of physical keyboard. If I use the smart cover to prop up the iPad, I can do better but it still isn't great plus the on screen keyboard reduces how much of screen image you can see. I also still don't like the viewing angle much using the smart cover

The surface gets around this by integrating the keyboard into the screen cover. The kickstand on the back also puts the tablet at what I think is a much better viewing angle. If you don't want to use the keyboard then I assume that you just fold it around the back of the Surface and use it like a normal tablet.

What happens when you flip the cover all the way around while you're holding it in your hand like you do any other tablet? They better have a "disable" switch/function for the cover keyboard or you'll be pressing keys, or touchpad, while trying to navigate using the touch screen, especially in the 2lb Pro version. Don't think I'd want to use a keyboard that took 2 pounds of force to press a key

And, I'd really like to know what Intel processor they plan on using. I assume, like the rest of the tablets, there's no fan. I put a 25w processor in my laptop and it's still really warm. Knowing they slow the processor to make it run cooler, how slow can you go and still expect it to run the full Office Suite?

In the initial demonstration they showed the cover wrapping completely around the other way, and yes, the keyboard turns off. They really did think of everything.

As for cooling, this too was addressed at the event. There is a vent that extends completely around the device, so no matter where your hands are holding the device, there is still plenty of ventilation.

Then I can get a slightly heavier system for a lot less money. It may become a question of how much one (or one's company) is willing to spend for that weight reduction.

keyboard? My laptop stays on my desk at various customer sites for days at a time. That's it's advantage over a tower. My tablet goes with me to meetings and short 1 day or less site visits.

I haven't checked the market lately, but I'm reasonably certain laptops are available with touch capabilities. As to the removable keyboard, why would you want to remove it other than to cut the weight? Note my statement that weight and price are trade-offs, and the amount people or companies are willing to pay for that reduced weight will vary.

there are plenty of laptops with touch capabilities. Look at Fujitsu Lifebooks.

They just don't feel right. And they cost more than I was willing to spend.

But then again, they are sturdy, super secure, flexible, and have an impressive battery life with a second battery installed.

Secure:
Pin pad password before Bios loads
Full HD encryption
Fingerprint reader

It meets my needs.

He has relegated his laptop to the task of "portable desktop" and lets his tablet work as the true mobility tool.

I think we've always differed on what percentage of the market is willing to pay for two devices, when one or the other will fit the needs of most. You see far more demand than I do.

Until I started messing around with W8 on the Iconia, any time I needed to have a computer available at various client offices and meetings, I had to pack up my laptop. I've seriously considered getting an iPad or an Android tablet but they just didn't fit me. Even the Iconia sits unused most of the time. But it is there when I need to be more mobile than usual and it has all my normal, day-to-day software installed. There is no learning curve. There is no "making do." It just works.

I'm going to have to wait and see about the RT.

From all guest-work at pricing I've seen, this should cost roughly the same as the air. Of course, the air is an actual laptop, all in one piece, nothing to lose. It also gives multiple viewing angles and is able to sit on your lap in those angles comfortably.
The only thing you can't do with the air is walk around using it standing up. Of course, using a phone or an actual table is much easier and you have no parts to lose.

I've been thinking that what all those devices really need is the equivalent of a third arm to support them, something like a plastic or plastic-coated metal rod that forms around the neck, droops down the chest and extends outwards as a couple of prongs. The prongs would fit into sticky finger-loops, like those fixings that can be used as temporary hanging supports for paintings. The finger-loops could also be used when not typing, supporting the devices for media consumption.
Make the yokes folding, like yardstick rulers, and they could even be carried in a small pocket.
I don't think I've seen a support yoke like the one I envision, so if anyone wants to take the idea and get rich, feel free. I don't have time nor talent to exploit it.

The Air
Does not support touch
Costs over $2000 (I hope the surface is considerably less)
Does not support Windows 8 programs (surface pro does) - unless you shell out for a windows emulator.
Does not support a digital pen.
Does not have a keyboard that folds away when not needed.

So it is hardly a substitute.

How would you lose the Surface's cover? Do iPad users worry over that with their cover?

First off, I'm assuming by your statement that you're talking about the MacBook Air.

*Does not support touch: True.
*Costs over $2000: False; 11" starts at $1000 and 13" starts at $1200--half the price you mention.
*Does not support Windows 8 programs (etc.): Mostly false. You don't have to buy an emulator to use Windows of any version on it, though if you're wanting to have access to both Windows and OS X you will need to repartition the drive with Bootcamp. No cost other than the price of Windows itself. On the other hand, if you want to run Windows apps from within OS X, then Parallels or Fusion are good ways to go and they're not that expensive.
*Does not support a digital pen: True--for now.
*Does not have a keyboard that folds away when not needed: True--it is still a laptop/ultrabook, after all. At least the keyboard it carries is reasonably reliable but that's beside the point.

I will agree that the 'magnetic' cover for the Surface appears to be attached at the bottom of the device in landscape mode (and logically for us in the US at the left in portrait mode). However, while the cover may not get lost as readily as a misplaced iPad cover, it also means that it's little better than a typical ultrabook with a permanent keyboard that just happens to allow multiple folds. In my opinion this also means you'll be replacing that cover far more frequently due to keyboard failure. I'll admit I do not have one of the newer iPads (my first-gen model still serves me well) and the Apple cover that I purchased for it hasn't been lost yet. As far as the magnetic covers are concerned, I'm not certain how they attach, but they do cover both front and back so they obviously do maintain some kind of semi-permanent attachment. As such, they're unlikely to get lost easily.

iPad knock off or not, this was a great move by MS. They are on the right track. I think a lot of Apple'rs thought no other company can match Apple's innovation and will never be able to produce anything like or better than the iPad. Some companies thought the same as well...they just could not envision anyone else putting the effort into producing an appealing tech device. Some Apple'rs who knock the keyboard are jealous because Apple did not come up with the idea--then all you would have been hearing about is how innovative Apple is. For those talking about viruses and malware, please take note that MS has its own free anti-virus and anti-malware programs now as part of the OS. Besides, users have been coping with those threats for decades and will continue to do so for a more widely used product.

Like the author, I too barely have a need for a tablet. The Surface Pro though could change that.

iPads are non-secure devices in an enterprise environment, especially financial services or healthcare where data security is critical. Windows 8 Pro devices running Intel Core i5 processors add security layers that iPads can't match - encryption with on-processor AES-NI, vPro managebility features and authentication capabilities you can't get with an iPad.

Surface represents a real option for IT departments that are screaming for help securing their enviornoments.

I love the way you jump to the ages old conclusion that Windows = Insecure.

Yes, windows is by default less secure than a good Linux build. That's borne of the different strategies used for the OSes. We know this but still Windows servers are everywhere. Furthermore they can be secured effectively. Granted, it's a little effort, but it can be done.

Here's the bit that bothers me though. Nobody has deconstructed or written exploits for W8 yet. So when you jump on the previous posted for suggesting that the encryption capabilities of a WinTel platforms outdo the iPad's by suggesting any IT dept touting such a move shall be sacked I think, "Wow. That's reactionary."

The point being made wasn't that Windows is inherently secure, only that W8Pro on the Surface platform should offer encryption services that will be useful (more so than the current iPad offering) and should be watched.

Read. Engage brain. Understand. Then type. Oh, wait. This is TR. My mistake.

Call me crazy, but, I think a properly secured MS ecosystem is as safe as a properly secured Linux or Apple ecosystem.

I won't call you crazy. You design your solutions around the strengths and weaknesses of the technology at your disposal.

It's worth noting that our security appliance picks up as many security issues with our Linux boxes as it does our Windows kit. We fix these every day as they appear and have no real security bias one way or another thanks to our own experience.

Windows may be the more promiscuous hussy of the OS world but even a die-hard floozy can be taught manners and proper etiquette if you come to understand her

Thanks for understanding my point.

If it runs legacy programs, it probably has legacy holes and will still get infected by legacy viruses.
This is speculation of course, but as currently there is no significant security improvements over Windows 7, I'm betting many viruses for Windows 7 will infect Windows 8. The RT version of Internet Explorer may provide some temporary immunity.

I know this is hard to believe, but, there is not a lot of support in the real business world for MySQL, PHP, etc. There are still a few holdouts using MS SQL Server, ASP, etc.

My iPad 2 even with a bluetooth keyboard isn't much of a production tool - I don't even use it to email. Same for my HTC tablet. I've been trying to use WIN8 on an Acer Iconia for about six months and I love the Start screen. But, for production work, even with a keyboard and mouse attached, WIN 8 takes too many keystrokes. My time is more productive on a WIN7 machine. I'll probably buy a pro Surface. Would never consider an RT version - that's what a smart phone is for.

Why would you buy what takes too many keystrokes? Use Android instead. I'm using ICS right now, runs fast, easily configured, gives the ability to encrypt the device and allows for facial recognition as the lock screen, pattern locking or pin number locking. It also uses much less power and is more highly extensible.

Does ICS offer 100% Exchange compatibility? 100% Office compatibility? 100% VPN, Remote Desktop, AD, etc, compatibility?

There are many ways to navigate on Win 8 so I am curious by what you mean by your statement.
Frankly, I like keyboard shortcuts because that's where my fingers are when I am writing.

....over to TR's Windows 8 blogs and reads some of JJFitz's (and others) comments about actually working with W8. JJ is quite eloquent about how to make this work easily and how much effort it really is(n't).

Metro is massively different to the eye but as with all versions of Windows there's more than one way to do things with it.

I have always enjoyed figuring things out and passing that information on to others.
I also believe in the economy of effort; figuring out how to get something done in the least amount of steps.

I remember the conversation thread about W8 and the numerous valid points you (and others in his thread) made. Your comments here echoed that of the other thread so I thought I'd try and save you from repeating yourself over and over.

Keep at the figuring

Consumers buy an iPad (or any tablet) to REPLACE their Windows laptop (for about the same money).

Professionals buy an iPad as a secondary device to their (usually Windows) laptop. The Surface "RT" meets the needs of both groups - plus it has none of the compatibility problems which exist between the iPad and Windows 7.

The Surface "8" device allows the professional to replace both his iPad and his Windows 7 laptop with a single Windows 8 device without spending as much as an UltraBook or MacBook Air.

If I were choosing a laptop to work on, I would not go for less than 14" screen size. Which means MS Surface is not going to replace my laptop.

However, if I'm going to use a tablet mostly for entertainment, then IPad and Android tablets, which are cheaper and already backed by developed app markets, still look better..

BTW, I actually like Windows, and I am closely tied to MS technologies. I just don't see why would I buy MS Surface for work - a 13" Ultrabook would be a better choice for me.

The same monitor plugs into my HDMI equipped W500 tablet

The point is that there's really nothing stopping a tablet from doing anything short of a laptop/desktop with the right software. Maybe not as fast, but today's tablets are still more powerful than even the desktops of 10 years ago.

......Apple.

Your sentiment is right, however. With the right connectivity and software, here's nothing stopping a tablet of any creed serving in a more traditional lap/desktop role.

For example, my TF101 has HDMI out and I frequently hook this up to my main TV to show friends things I'm doing on the tablet.

...is a ripoff from the Acer Iconia W500 tablet sitting on my work table next to me. But it's also a good idea. (The Acer runs Win7, which is a little clunky, but workable for what I do.)

I bought an IPad because it was cool, never expected to use it as much as I do. The thing you do learn from having is that a tablet is a consumption device (even with the bluetooth keyboard, still only consumption). Content creation is better done on a full desktop/laptop.

I do not think microsoft has the basic understanding of peoples requirements, they are still too focused on technology for the sake of technology. Also you need to remember they have tried tablet OS a number of times already and it has never caught on as they spend too much time trying to do everything for everybody, rather than concentrate on one particular market and get that right.

I have been using an asus transformer prime with keyboard expansion. It seems to work very well. I love it for a tablet. bUT just wish I could do some real work on it. About the only way I can do anything remotely relate to work, is to go to "goToMyPC". Not what I was wanting. So, until yesterday, I was shopping for a Netbook to replace my laptop instead of a tablet. Now,,,I'll wait to see what the Surface brings.

Tablets are great for surfing email, entertainment..but work? so far no.

David Clark

The Surface hasn't yet hit the market. It's still a prototype using beta software. Wait until it is actually released and in use by real people and businesses before sounding the death knell for its competitors.

I will definitely buy a Surface. An iPad is a toy that doesn't really have a place in the enterprise. This is what everyone has been waiting for, and it looks like Microsoft has delivered.

quad core 2g mem 32gb internal hard drive..... read please read befor posting . This is not a ipad .this is a real pc in your hand's not a toy . Company's can save a lot of and have compleat control on what go's on a device they give to thier workers . not the employe. dont tell any one.but it will be a nice gamer .

I have an Android tablet and I can be damned productive on it. I can't imagine I have access to apps and features that iPad owners don't so what makes the iPad a toy? I don't think my TF101 is a toy, would you?

I'll admit my tablet (and the iPad) are less suited to the enterprise at the moment than the traditional laptop but that doesn't make them nothing more than a plaything. I do useful stuff with my tablet - surely others do too?

due to gross inaccuracy.

As much as I usually enjoy your comments, Charlie, this time I have to disagree. To be clear, here's the bit I refer to:
"This is not a ipad .this is a real pc in your hand's not a toy"
The 'iPad is a toy' attitude is all over TR these days (including this very thread!) and while I sort of get why people might start to think that, anyone who makes a serious attempt at using a tables would, in my opinion, be disinclined to agree.

not in enterprize never will cant play battle feld 3 on it cant add programs you make to them .cant upgrade them.so it is a Toy! enterprize wont use it because of security concerns. whit sruface they control what is put on it. not thier dumm *** employees.that why it will work in enterprize

"cant play battle feld 3:

No one at the enterprise level cares if it won't run games.

"cant add programs you make"

Yes, you can. You have to go through the App Store, but it can be done:

https://developer.apple.com/programs/ios/distribute.html

And just because you don't have a use for it doesn't make it a toy.

security company data on some thing the emplyee can change on thier own will never be accepted .by any company that want real security and a ipad is not very secure.Oh an go away fanboy,and befor you start a fight wiht me i am not for any one platform.dont care what i use as long as it works apple,windows,or lenux i use for hacking dont care a tool is just a tool.

@sarai1313, please keep in mind that by calling it a toy, you expressed an opinion. Not everybody is going to agree with that opinion. Attacking those who disagree with you is not the way to learn why they disagree.

We have these forums and discussions, so we can learn why others might disagree with us and their reasons.

"security company data on some thing the emplyee can change on thier own will never be accepted .by any company that want real security and a ipad is not very secure."

The same can be said about any device, regardless of manufacturer. Windows devices require an anti-malware app and a firewall, at a minimum. Previous versions defaulted to a single account with admin access as part of the initial configuration.

I'm always amused when someone calls me an Apple fanboi, since I've never used an Apple device in my life. I also enjoy it when someone calls me any kind of fanboy but then claims to be immune from counter-accusations.

sure some cut down version of some game but not the full version it would not run .by the way there are two versions of thier tablet one for enterprize and one that is not .boy i can tell you are a fanboy.well i am not for any one platform.all i want is the best tool for the job. Not what i need to be part of the in click i think thats what it is called now.oh want to be with that group so i will by what they by so i can to part of the click

... you simply prove you do NOT know which is the best tool for the job. Sometimes the best tool for a car mechanic looks like a dentist's tooth-cleaning pick. By comparison, it looks like a toy. What may be a toy to you could well fit another's needs perfectly.

I withdraw the comment.

Charlie, I wouldn't have called it gross inaccuracy and did not intend you to delete any comment. I always enjoy a debate with you and if you'd simply missed the comment I was referring to, that's only human. It was hidden in the post well, after all.

No harm intended and no harm done

I look forward to further debates with you.

You were right, I was completely wrong. I don't have any pride on the line here, at least not enough to not clean up after myself.

The beauty about the Surf is not because of its looks and not because of its power, but it is because of its simplicity. It's so simple that I believe that Ives (at Apple) must be kicking himself. It is so simple that the designers at Dell and HP must be cursing themselves when they go sleep. The lesson for all of us in the IT industry (developers and hardware alike) is to keep things simple. "The simple things in life are often the best" and that's what my grandmother used to tell me.

Great comment Michael. After reading the article I am still abit confused. While it all sounds nice, I am still wondering if you can run all the applications that are taylored for the iPad on the new Microsoft tablet albeit like you I already have a Asus Transformer sitting in its charger most of the time. For instance, a lot of the industry POS systems, swipes, etc... are made exclusively for the iPad/iPod... However, like you, I ustilized the typical laptop configuration. It sure would be nice if this integrated into a microsoft enterprise version? Also, considering the cost which is even more expensive than an iPad, if I am losing some of those great features of an iPad, is it truly worth the price?

How we have such a short memory. I can hardly count the number of orphaned devices (a number of them tablets), services and software products Microsoft has abandoned. Are we really going to go for the same bait again? We get all the bad and little of the good, klugy GUI, no backward compatibility and a pile of junk accessories to carry around. Let's face it Microsoft stole the march with the Ipad. Microsoft should be looking to the future for new ideas, which they rarely do in this arena. Its not all bad, I will probably be able to buy a surface cheap in a few months so I can figure out how to load Linux on it.

Are we really going to do this again? Really?

Every vendor has failed/abandoned products (remember Newton, anyone? How about Apple NAS server - or Apple Server hardware of any kind?) Consumers buy products because it provides them what they want, and in this case the Microsoft Surface is exactly what I've been waiting for.

How can a promiscuous device from MS bring security? u got to be kidding!

Configure it to be less promiscuous? How do you think people secure Windows servers.

Wait....I'm having a flashback of the swiss cheese that was IIS5.....noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Configure it .D'huh most folks dont understand all they know of security Mc something or another.not how to limit the user from messing with the system once in is in thier hands .and that is what most companys are looking for a laptop,pad, or thier own servers.

If everyone could do it effectively, many of us would be out of a job. Thankfully, that isn't the case

With BitLocker encryption enterprises can secure data the Surface the same as they do for laptops. It even includes remote wipe if lost or stolen.

This appeals, as trying to make security conform to Apple as a Federated option - is almost a non-issue (ie: not going to happen...) for many of the clients we have. In the end, if this can be implemented simply, easily and conform to group policies/encryption tunnelling (and it's windows, so it will) it's a slam dunk for getting into larger corporate clients hands... Executives will love it. No reliance on external parties for pull/push options, updates, etc... Let's see what the price will be, but I think realistically - it's a winner to many... especially secure places...

People, please. It's not the form factor. It's not the keyboard. It's not the screen resolution, nor even the plethora of ports.

The most interesting thing about the Surface is the business model.

If it's running Windows, I can build my own apps for it. I can go buy third party apps. My company can put their own IT apps on it. No Android Play or Apple Store to deal with. Just get the compiler and an editor and go nuts. I can run full-on Excel with all of my 1000's of custom-written macros on it, the same way I can on my PC.

This is awesome. Apple, Google, you can keep your "stores" with your bloody stupid and restrictive rules.

Oh, and if that weren't enough for this technically demanding audience, you can bet, given its UEFI BIOS and x86-based architecture, that there'll be multiple Linuxes in a few months - at least on the Pro version.

I'm telling you - for these reasons alone, I'll definitely be buying one. Or two. Or more.

Surface RT is essentially an iPad for Windows users. RT itself is to Windows 8 what iOS is to OS X. Like the iPad, Microsoft has used a magnetic cover to protect the screen and 'flip' the power switch, but unlike the iPad they made the cover into a soft keyboard not that different from so many others already available with the exception that it uses a Microsoft proprietary connector.

As for the iPad "not having any kind of keyboard available", it seems someone has forgotten that it was released with an optional (and still available) docking keyboard to let you type on it just as normally as you will type on the Surface. The difference is that the iPad also allows the use of ANY bluetooth keyboard, including desktop grade units.

The Surface Pro on the other hand is a merger between the old, failed Windows tablets with RT compatibility through the Metro interface. Yes, this could really be a step forward for Microsoft, or it could be nothing more than a repeat of that 10-year-old failure. The biggest advantage is its ability to integrate with the desktop environment more easily.

Is it a super-slim laptop as some have suggested? Not really; it's a tablet first even though it does run the full Windows 8 OS in the Pro version. It's intended to be used without the keyboard most of the time and I fully believe you'll find that keyboard 'cover' will fail as a keyboard very quickly if you're a heavy-fingered typist.

Surface has great potential and I think Microsoft realizes this. But the users are the ones who will make or break this product and based on the discussions I've read here, it's going to end up yet another failure for MS when they really need a success.

Surface RT is not iPad for Windows users. Nothing could be further from the truth. WinRT (the kernel that runs the Surface RT) is the future of the Windows platform. It is a new kernel that will eventually replace Explorer.EXE. Win8 currently runs both kernels concurrently in order to maintain backwards compatibility, but the goal is to eventually get rid of Explorer.EXE completely and to switch all apps to the new kernel. I do not think anyone here would argue that iOS is the eventual replacement for OS X.

Surface Pro is also not a merger between old Windows tablets and the Metro interface. It is thinner, more powerful and designed specifically for Win8 which, itself, was designed with tablets in mind (unlike all previous versions of Windows).

Furthermore, your prediction about the failure of the keyboard cover for "heavy typists" is based on what? Oh that's right, nothing! Microsoft has tested the keyboard for both speed/accuracy of typists and longevity of use.

I make no prediction of the success of the product (I'm not a seer), but I can tell you that I plan to buy one.

RT only runs on ARM processors. Are you saying Microsoft is going to abandon Intel and AMD?

Incidentally, XP Tablet was designed specifically with the tablets of early '00s in mind. Unfortunately,few apps were (OneNote being the rare exception).

Look in your Windows directory and you will find WinRT is running as well as explorer.exe. While explorer.exe will not run on ARM, WinRT can run on Intel.

You're right that XP Tablet edition was made for tablets, but lets be honest, XP was designed for the desktop and the Tablet edition was developed on the side. My point is that Win8 is the only Windows designed from the ground up for tablets.

I've had one in hand for the last month, pre-release.
Minus the App store (not a negative remark), it's very flexible and gives market users all of the things that up to now, Apple has collaterally denied: USB access, Full application support,.. Sync with multiple sources, not just one iTunes desktop.
Is that not enough to make it leaps and bounds better? Especially for the enterprise?
BTW - I don't use my iPad any longer as I have now been freed from arbitrary vendor limitations.

The main reason people like iPads is the app store. If microsoft come up with a decent app store model then it might work otherwise people just wont buy them

No matter whether it looks like iPad, if it proves in performance, then Microsoft strategy of positioning itself in Enterprise will surely work in its advantage. Given the fact that there is already a widespread adoption of MS based services in Enterprises & its roll out of Cloud services, MS is set to gain. The way i look at these devices, you will surely need PCs/laptops for some resource intensive activities, while tablets will evolve more as a personal consumption device. When i mean personal consumption, i am referring to browsing, personal mailing, socializing, researching, book reading, apps usage & entertainment. As Jason mentioned, i feel, no other device maker had the might & necessary environment to take on iPad & Android Devices. While Blackberry had established its credentials in Communication security, HP lacked in its Apps offering, Microsoft has OS, Apps, Partner Network, Global Presence (they are planing a 45 language support) which can help it. More over, to some extent i also believe Nokia's Mobile Partnership & Facebook should help it. The power of computing keep multiplying every year, hence i am really keen to see how this evolves. Now i am waiting for the next surprise from Google Mobility.

I applaud this attempt by Microsoft. I have been using an early HP (TC1100) tablet with windows XP on it for quite some time and it is great except for a few items. The main thing is the full use of all conceivable Microsoft applications that really work. I had started to get my wife a new IPAD since she uses an apple laptop. It didn't take much investigation to learn that was a poor plan. I got her an Android tablet instead. All the problems of the IPAD and maybe a few more but not many, but at around 1/8 the cost. We have patched and modified so that it is usable sort of, maybe better than a stock IPAD, but neither is up to use in a business environment unless it is for simple portable I/O to real computer. Neither the IPAD nor the ANDROID can actually print to ordinary printers unless another real computer exists somewhere and is running. The multiple touch gestures are confusing to most people at first

I will look carefully at the windows attempt and see what it has to offer. Critical to check is the battery life, heating, standard software from Microsoft, tablet & touch applications, upgrade capability for memory and storage ,and whether it will print to any wifi or usb printer. If it is done correctly then it will be a great addition to a lot of systems and should outdistance the other tablet quickly.

Knockoff is not the word I would use to describe a 'Full' PC in front of an oversized phone

"That???s going to mean a lot fewer worries about compatibility, security, and data protection. In other words, it means a lot less work for IT on the backend and a smoother transition for many users."

Jason,
Microsoft is known as the home of back-doors! Just remember the last security-patches, so please remove security from your list of "fewer worries", otherwise I count you as a "Microsoft court-jester"!

I've been through the thread and I'm now sick of "MS can't launch products....blah...blah....orphaned devices....blah....blah....security, my ass!....blah....blah....iPad knockoff....blah....blah.....MS are too late....blah....Jason is advertising....waaaaaaahhhh!"

Still, this is a comments thread for a Jason Hiner article so it's been quite tame so far.

Stop with the negativity already. We all know MS and their previous shortcomings. We know the traditional weaknesses of a Windows platform. None of it matters. Get hold of a demo unit, play with it, watch how MS launch and run the surface services and then judge whether this is for you.

For all we know the security will be fixed, the launch will be awesome and the device will beat the iPad, at least in the enterprise.

I'm not a fan of MS and I abandoned windows in my home for Android (yeah, crazy - I know). At work I support a handful of Solaris boxes, a couple of Linux servers and a shed-load of Win-Tel architecture. I know the pain of supporting and securing MS platforms. Still, despite all this, I choose to be an optimist and to give the Surface a chance. This has promise for a number of reasons, people - open your eyes and dare to see that.

MS - don't frakk this up and make me a fool on this.....(ominous glare)

I work in education and engineering. Tablets appeal to me (although I have yet to buy one) because they are the way to take the relevant part of my (desk-sitting) laptop for a journey on the field or a few days of travel.
In a days' work I use intensively Office, Autodesk, Adobe, mathematical and design applications that need top CPU and graphics processors, RAM and HDD, two screens, large keyboard, etc. But while on the way I just need to carry documents, files, drawings, to show or look at and, sometimes, do a bit of work on them to catch later on when back at the office. And check email and browse the web, of course.
For all of this, I just need powered-down versions of the applications (Office on RT will be splendid) but also - and mainly - a limited version of the same OS I use at the office. I don't want to keep wondering where is this or that, how to find a file or to copy and paste in Android 4, iOS or whatever runs the thing.
I don't think Microsoft intends to jump into the hardware manufacturer bandwagon. I see Surface as a way to show the world and its OEM partners that an iPad equivalent (in all aspects, looks included) is possible to create and run Win8.
Microsoft is leading the pack, will obviously sell the first batches of RT tablets (I really don't see a reasonable-sized market for the x86 version, for the reasons I mentioned) and make a profit mainly through Win8 RT software. Surface tablets will become a high-end items, perhaps concentrating on larger memory, 4G and higher resolution screen.
The main challenge - that I wish they win - will be to make Win8 in different flavours but running smoothly from desktop to laptop to tablet. Can't wait October is here...

I'm betting you do all that work on a Windows 7 system. Surface will be running Windows 8. Have you looked at W8 yet? You're still going to be wondering where is this or that, how to copy and paste, etc. W8 is just that much different from W7.

There will be the option to upgrade your primary system to W8 too, but you've already noted the issue of not having different versions of the OS for desktops vs. tablets. That's also one of my complaints.

Sure. I am not a tech pro, I am a user pro. That issue is relevant whenever one upgrades OS or applications (XP to Vista and then to 7; Office XP/2003 to 2007/2010), some re-learning is needed and Win8 will not be different. But, at least, that effort will pay by using the same platform and applications irrespective of the hardware under it.

The apps will definitely be the same. Some of the features that are drawn from the OS will be different, though. For example, the File Save window will look different based on the OS, although not radically enough to require retraining. It's the OS itself that may drive you nuts.

Doctors are going to love this thing. Alot of hospitals and healthcare providers are currently running or in the process of switching to EHR. My doctor for instance has to lug a little laptop around with him to update my chart. With surface this will be alot easier with the smaller footprint and the 600 dpi stylus where he can scribble notes instead of typing them in. Along with being more durable and not having to charge it every two hours, doctors are going to love this.

If I were Microsoft, I'd have sales reps invading hospitals as soon as this thing arrives. No more using iPads and expensive Citrix infrastructure to virtualize applications so that they run on non-Windows hardware. Once doctors get their hands on surface, iPads will start piling up in recycle bins to give to poor kids.

Poor Steven Sinofsky. as president of Microsoft???s Windows division, he was one of the main presenters at Monday???s unveiling of the Microsoft Surface tablet in Los Angeles, and every tech presenter???s Epic Fail Moment had to happen to him live on stage. He played it off well, and they had a backup Surface tablet in the wings, but, it was still yet another epic set back for Microsoft. I think Microsoft is trying hard to play catch up, but, I don't feel too sorry for them, or count them out too early. They are still the proverbial 800 pound Gorrilla, even though Google and Apple are just getting past 500 pounds. The tech world is mercurial, flexible, volitile, and unforgiving. But, you really never know just how it's going to break... Microsoft has tons of marketing muscle, it remains to be seen if they can make metro and RT work on this little tablet. The problem is they keeping stepping on their own, big feet.

Microsoft announced the tablet PC in 2001.

... and flat failed to drive any development in that direction, effectively setting back technology by nearly 10 years.

Explain what you mean.
Microsoft and the tablet manufacturers continued to make win tablet OSes and hardware up to now.

I think I know what Vulpine may be getting at but I disagree with the conclusion reached.

Tablet PCs have been about for ages but to my mind two factors prevented them becoming a real force in the computing world and changing that face of what's to come until the Apple iPad showed up:

1) Lack of matured portable tech to provide the platforms we're starting to see now
2) Lack of marketing focus from MS and key hardware partners

The solutions to #1 could have been found if proper effort to #2 had been applied. Hell, I'd have bought early tablets had they been marketed effectively in the UK. So useful for me.

So, while I disagree that tech was set back 10 years, I will say that the development of a viable market segment for tablet computing was indeed delayed because the proper focus was not applied in the early years of tablet computing. Simply put, MS didn't appreciate what they may have had on their hands until it was too late.

@Vulpine Is this what you're getting at or have I missed your point entirely?

Numbers 1 and 2 are very tightly related. Yes, I will agree that today's tablets are far more compact and lightweight than the tablet/convertible laptops available prior to the iPad. However, they were also full-powered PCs with capabilities that the iPad still doesn't offer, though the iPad has also proven that a full desktop OS really isn't necessary to a tablet. Really, the hardware technology was available from the beginning and nearly every major brand of Windows-based PCs included at least one convertible laptop in their catalog for almost the entire 10 year period. Especially during the later half of that period HP in particular started really trying to push its touch-sensitive desktops; commercials aired regularly showing how the user could sweep back and forth between apps (even simply and more intuitive than ctrl-tab) and do almost everything with your fingertip that you previously needed a mouse to perform. Still, the touch format simply languished with almost no third-party support from software developers. As such, it wasn't hardware tech or even hardware marketing that emphasized the failure of the tablet.

No, the failure was in software development from day one. This is why I say the technology was set back 10 years. Microsoft didn't drive software support--at least not visibly. The closest thing they came to even offering lip service was their "ribbons" menu bars that nobody understood and even now most complain about how much harder Office is to use because of them.
Keep in mind that I'm using Apple as an example here not because I'm a fan (I admit it) but because of the methods they used to drive the market. When Microsoft announced Windows for Tablets, Apple had already canceled the Newton as a "distraction" at a time when they needed to focus on the desktop. Shortly after that announcement, Apple released an MP3 player that, while only a little different from the Creative and other brands of MP3 players was a lot easier to load and use. They created their first true mobile operating system. Over the years this became even more refined but still required physical controls one way or another. Or did they? By the third generation, the 'clickwheel' was replaced by a fixed contact area that functioned just like the moving part of the first-gen device. Not long after that, they announced and released the iPod Touch and the first iPhone, with almost no moving parts and an all-glass display. Even more, they took some of the 'features' of PDAs and even existing smartphones and made them so easy to use a two-year-old child could figure it out and use it--without the need for a stylus that was a necessity with every previous PDA on the market. That touch OS gradually grew in power and developed a software base to the point that when Apple finally released its second tablet--the iPad--it already had a developer core and a software base that pulled it into the market rather than needing any concerted push from Apple itself.
Microsoft is now trying to use Apple's methods to match that drive but doesn't have the time (or the patience) to move slowly; they not only have to compete with Apple for the tablet market, but they're having to also compete with Android for the mobility market in general and they've really got to prove that their Windows solutions are better than Android's. WinMob's reputation for the last 10 years or so has really hurt them and they've got to prove that WP7/WP8 (RT) are far more stable and reliable than their predecessors. Microsoft as such is now having to push even harder than ever on the product side while convincing developers that they need to create software for those products for anything to happen. They can't just 'invite' developers any more, they're having to push developers into touch. We'll just have to wait and see how well that works out.

I knew I'd missed something:
#3 - Lack of software development.

Got to agree the lack of focus here is a factor but the question in my mind always comes back to, 'why develop software for a market that doesn't exist?'

Like Apple, I'll bet MS had their hands full with other concerns and touch apps and tablet friendly computing would not have been at the forefront. We've seen that with other MS technologies before so it seems feasible.

To my mind Apple knew they couldn't directly compete with Windows on Desktop or sever platforms so they pushed niches where MS hadn't invaded. Places where a strong foothold could be acquired more easily. A great example of this is the iPod - I've always preferred Sony MP3 players myself (better sound and battery life IMHO) but I'd NEVER bet against Apple in this field now.

The force is strong with this one.....at least where certain tech lies. lets hope that MS' new Dark Lord of the Sith isn't wiped out by the far more numerous but slightly less powerful Jedi hordes...

Between 2001 and 2010 tablets were, at best, a niche tool that needed specially-written software since no commercial developers were designing tablet-based applications. It wasn't until the iPad came out and showed how properly-written software could make the tablet and incredibly useful device (despite all the "content consumption only" arguments.) Had Microsoft pushed for touch back when they first announced "Windows for Tablets" Apple wouldn't have had a chance to pull the lead it has now.

I keep emphasizing it's all about the apps!!
I've owned several Windows tablets... I wanted to love the device. The concept is good.
The bad part has always been the apps that run on Windows have never done justice to a touchscreen device.

It wasn't until the iPad hit and Apple had made sure the app developers were on the same page that the true experience of a tablet was allowed to show it's strengths.
My experience for over ten years has been that Photoshop on a Windows tablet is a horrible experience... I usually end-up using Photoshop on a regular computer.
But... most Photoshop-type image apps on the iPad are an incredible experience! This is how image manipulation should be! As an artist and a photographer, I've waited twenty-something years for a device to allow me to replace my paintbox when the urge hits. Eleven years ago I had hoped the Windows PC tablets would be that device, but they weren't.
If Microsoft doesn't insist on a whole reworking of apps for their new device, it doesn't stand a chance.

I noticed you said "Photoshop-type image apps". That's because they are lightweight apps - very good at what they do within a limited scope.
I bet most professional graphics designers would still go to a desktop to do complex work.

it was the hard ware not soft ware .the dam things wieghed all most as cheep laptops today. peace

... that a tablet would never succeed without a full desktop version of the OS installed. Well, for 10 years tablets didn't succeed and quite honestly I've watched people carry paper and pen clipboards with pounds of paper on/in them with no trouble. No, it wasn't the weight of the device that shot them down, it was simply the lack of viable software and -- I'll grant this one -- the PRICE of the hardware.

HP proved that a cheap enough tablet will sell even without software for it.
But who wants to pay 2 or 3 thousand on a tablet that will, as you have pointed out, be very difficult to use as the software is not touch centric.

It wasn't until Verizon started pumping those 2fers that Android phones really started moving and if you look now, it's still the low-priced models that are selling the most. Obvious proof of this is the fact that only 7% of Android users have adopted ICS despite the update on the market for over a year. I really don't see Jelly Bean doing any better.

As a result, there is almost no Android here. Its all iPhone and blackberry

nt

Sure. For example, 2 ounces is 0.125 pounds of paper.

That means that the average hardboard clipboard holding a pen/pencil and 50 sheets of paper (by no means unusual) weighs about the same as a tablet like the iPad. Now, why can't the tablet be able to serve the exact same purpose as that clipboard without forcing you to manually transfer that data later into a desktop/laptop machine?

Yes, seriously. Pounds of paper.

The apps that currently exist on tablets couldn't have been made for the hardware back then. In addition to the lack of processing power and storage, GPS and built in cameras were rare and expensive. And cellular data was slow and charging by the kilobyte.

While the early tablets may have weighed as much as cheap laptops today, many of them weighed less than the laptops of the '00s they were competing against. I agree there was a hardware issue, but it was that they were underpowered. I disagree that hardware was the only factor; a lack of software played at least an equal part.

I have to disagree with you on several points.
I have been using Windows based tablets since "Windows XP for Tablets".
Have you spent more than a week using a Windows Tablet?
1. After "Windows XP for Tablets", the software for touch was built into the operating system. Vista is Vista - tablet support was built in. The same goes for Windows 7 and 8. No special software outside of the OS was needed from Windows.
2. The hardware manufacturers were responsible for developing touch software that worked in the Windows tablet environment. They originally developed stylus based touch software to work with Windows and then moved on to finger touch software. In my opinion, the stylus is a much better solution for fine control of the touch screen. Since then, they have developed dual touch software (stylus & finger).
3. While I will agree that the developers of touch enabled software were few and far between outside of Microsoft, there was Corel Draw and there still is much of Microsoft's software. I use my stylus to write emails, sign electronic documents, draw diagrams, and take quick notes. I practically live in Microsoft OneNote. I used my finger in Win 7 to move between applications, scroll, and zoom in and out of screens. I do the same with Win 8, plus the Win apps.
4. You can't set something back 10 years if you never stopped developing it.
In my opinion Windows' tablets did not take off because the hardware was too expensive for the average user, the hardware manufacturers did not fully buy into the tablet idea, and Microsoft expected the user to want the same applications in a tablet form factor. We'll see what Microsoft does now that they plan to make their own devices.
Apple came at the tablet from a whole other perspective - entertainment first. The iPad is the grandchild of the iPod. It has very little to do with the Mac. iPods were originally simple entertainment devices (music). Successful but simple. Building on that success, Apple came out with the iPod Touch - a bit more complex but still mostly an entertainment device (music & games) with a little awkward browsing and clunky email functionality. Building on that success, Apple released the iPad. The iPad was originally just a big iPod Touch with a few more apps designed for the larger screen size. It has only been within the last two years that it has become a lightweight productivity tool.
Windows for Tablets started out as mostly a productivity tool. It's only lately that it has started encouraging the development of app-sized lightweight entertainment.
These are two very different approaches.
iPad: Entertainment first. Productivity second.
Windows tablet: Productivity first. Entertainment second.

"It wasn't until the iPad came out and showed how properly-written software could make the tablet and incredibly useful device ..."

It helped that the iPad could take advantage of the existing applications and delivery model already developed for the iPhone. MS lacked a pre-existing app base, but the failure to develop one was their fault. Apparently they're applying that lesson to Metro apps for W8.

I just don't get what MS was thinking. I don't know if they saw a need that didn't really exist at the time, or if developers gad no motivation to write for it, or if the hardware was too overpriced and underpowered to warrant purchasing outside niche applications. Probably all of the above, although my experience with three models from two manufacturers push me towards the 'overpriced / underpowered' factor. I don't know that MS set tablets back as much as it failed to advance them.

The ARM based Surface tablet, running Windows RT, can be expected to function just as Microsoft has promised all along. This means no desktop mode allowed for anyone but Microsoft (the only ones allowed to use Win32 APIs on ARM), and it won't support full networking with domain logins... unless they're forking RT to give the MS version special powers. Yeah, the x86 version will.. it is, after all, just another tablet PC.

So what's actually interesting here, tech-wise? Keyboard in a lid? Well, that's been done 100x poorly... I had a calculator that did that in the 80s. I wouldn't place any bets on real touch typing here.. but pretty much any tablet with USB or Bluetooth let's you use a real keyboard
Heck, my phone does... mouse too.

Desktop PC with fast processors are a dime a dozen, I must have 6. You can pick them up anywhere. My next purchase will be the Microsoft Surface. I'm using Win 8 on my primary PC at work and love it. I love pads for the portability. It's about time they got into the hardware side and complete the circle in my view.

It would be so convenient for log-in if the Surface Pro had a built-in fingerprint scanner.
I have had one on my ThinkPad and Fujitsu tablets and they do save time when logging in.
It is just as fast as "slide to unlock" but much more secure and much faster than keyboard entry.
I suppose facial recognition would work and the front facing camera is already there but it does not seem like the available software is ready.

i did nto tell and yone that the tool that works for them is crap i said that the right tool for the right job.i have told family and friend to by apple and windows for thier life style and work they wanted to do .just like i have done all my life .in every job i have held.from air planes .cars,computers .and i will tell you i have a bunch of tools including cnet.but i do not need some one to tell me i hurt some feelings because i did not agree with them .so who ever this moderator is need to grow up.and if you want to talk you have my email and my phone number witch only cnet has. no other site has it only you guys i live in san francisco when all you hadwas one small office. you mite not remember me but i remember you at the start

Not sure what you are talking about. Did you reply to the wrong tree?

http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/102-392734-3679416

Not sure, though. The typos sometimes make it difficult to follow.

It seems apparent by this specific posting that English is not your native language. As such, it may be possible that the way you said something came across as harsher than you intended. I admit that English is one of the more difficult languages in the world, especially when the syntax is so different, for example we say "I like you" where elsewhere it comes out as "I you like".

There will always be differences in opinion pretty much with everything in life. We try not to come across as too 'bossy', but some people's opinions are so strong that they believe theirs can be the only right answer. It's a 'give and take' world and you can only 'take' so much.

Good to see it stick its head out every two years, but I thought it was supposed to revolutionize our dining room tables.

.....virtual D&D tabletop by the time D&D Next is launched. What the hell happened to that tech demo, anyway? So much promise!

Er......oopsie! Mixing up my geek credentials there. Forgot I wasn't on an RPG forum for a moment.

... on my desktop--much less my tablet.

Anybody want to make some quick bucks? Start developing CR sheets for all the different tabletop RPGs.