Discussion on:

Dress code: When is casual too casual?

ATM I work in a company where I wear formal chinos and work shirts. Not something I enjoy wearing but tbh the best I've worn were always golf shirts and jeans. Felt casual and somewhat formal at the same time.

Sloppy dressing DOES reflect on character. Yeah I know all us programming types have problems interfacing with reality but you've got to keep SOME perspective. I think smart / casual is as intimate as I want to get in a work environment. Perhaps this may be more important as you get older and your body degenerates?

Most of the last year or so before I retired I went to work in jeans and jogging shoes, as did the majority of my colleagues. All but two of us have PhDs and we're one of the two groups in the state accredited by our national organization, so I guess we occasionally do something right.

What's the PhDs got to do with it?

Well, you lost me as soon as you compared how a person dresses to the kind of person they are (character)....can't believe you meant to write that anil_g

Besides being a personal opinion, he was only quoting reality. Dress, haircut, facial hair, personal hygiene... these ALL reflect on how a LOT of people perceive you as a professional. I dressed in whatever I liked when I was younger, but after a couple of conversations with clients I learned that, while THEY were willing to discuss the issue and learn who *I* was, a LOT of people will judge you and your company on appearance, and leave it at that.

If you're willing to lose clients or work, then do what you want. Otherwise, you have to please others to get ahead...

Yes, I can completely relate to this discussion.
I've been a Real Estate Broker for a long time, and my confidence in my ability is quite high. When in discussion with potential clients about their situation, they are nearly always impressed and confident in what they are being advised. When I have to meet them, I tell them that I dress pretty casual, and ask, "will that be a problem?".
I've never had anyone say, "yes", ...but I'm also not an idiot. I'm sure some think it's not very professional to dress in nice jeans and a pull over shirt. I know that in my business it would be better to be in slacks, shirt and tie.
God, I need to move to Hawaii. They dress in beach attire nearly all the time, business or not!

If your work doesn't involve getting around quickly, being physically flexible, prepared for a wide variety of climates, able to carry basic tools, then wear a suit.
Suits are better for strictly managerial/sales/ legal/medical jobs.
if you are a technician, come dressed for work. And dress comfortably, you might wind up in a 20 hour troubleshooting marathon.

NT

We had a group take over telecommunications, they wore suits, ties, white shirts and honest to god they had gold badges on their belts. NEVER got caught carrying a tool kit unless they had made their presence know to the customer, Then they would saunter back to their "office" and grab a toolkit. All to create a professional appearance. We, on the other hand, better qualified and trained, scurried around in the same uniforms the electricians wore. We garnered more respect from the customers than the Telecom guys because we carried our basic tools with us, got the job done usually on the spot, and we often got a little smudged up in the process.
Clothes show what kind of work you're willing to do to fix the problem, how soon you're willing to do it and if you are willing to "get down and dirty" with the problem.
Yes, clothes do speak of the man. They might speak a different language from what some think!

also I've met teams who dressed like they didn't care, and guess what - they didn't.

I know it's a bit out there. I'm looking for feedback. You can't say that just because he's wearing a suit he's not a drug addict, but some drug addicts are obvious from the way they dress. I'm just saying dress counts for something.

I used to have long hair and a beard.
I wore band t-shirts with (usually ripped) jeans on casual Fridays but a shirt and tie the rest of the week, with my hair tied back.
Now I'm clean-shaven and have a tidy haircut, my career in IT has really lifted-off. I guess that was too casual.

This is too casual:

http://www.humorhour.com/pictures/default.asp?picture=214

Oh dear God...I just threw up a little

That would be enough to make even me stay home from the office; and I'm pretty liberal.

OMG. What happened to pride and work ethic? Casual and practical is fine, but slovenly is embarassing.

It may also be when Casual Friday results in sick day Monday... and perhaps Tuesday, too.

I would consider this as disgusting =8-)

I suspect a cut-and-paste (from the shadows on the left of the "casually dressed" person) but then, that is a humor site.

I remember my first contact with Casual Friday, years ago, when our Agency was in the throes of TQM (Total Quality Management, which the later renamed to TQE for Environment: it was obvious that Management was not enamored of the program). I was on TDY in another building and kept seeing people in shorts more often than I had before and thought there were a lot more office picnics that summer. Then one day I was back at my regular office and someone asked my I was so dressed up. I said this was just normal business attire, sport coat and tie. He said, "But it's Casual Friday!" "Casual WHAT?", I replied. In isolation we hadn't gotten the memo about this latest TQM innovation.

Later, in an IT position with no promotion potential I drifted in no ties and even jeans, the mark of the non-managerial techie.

Now, with contact witht he public, I've reverted to ties, except on Casual Friday.

Side note: I remember back in the 70s when mainframe operators at EDS (the Ross Perot company) were required to wear suits (three-piece, I think) to work, even when the worked mandatory Saturday overtime for half-pay. Oh, well, I guess they had access to the golf course.

You forgot to mention.......No facial hair, dark suits, standard issue lace-up shoes (no moccasins or slip-ons) and the shirts had to be white and long-sleeved. Even during the 6-month bootcamp, we were not allowed to remove our jackets. And all of that didn't hurt us none.

Not that it had any more to do with killing the co. than Dick Brown and his ilk, but, the dress code didn't really help that much either. Somewhere between rigid and chaotic lies a perfectly acceptable medium.

I didn't work at EDS but visited two of their sites to install/train and/or inspect some datacomm equipment our Agency had installed there, so I I didn't pick up all the requirments. Perot was ex-Navy and ex-IBM, so you can figure where his dress code came from. I did wear a coat and tie in those days (and for a while the dreaded Leisure Suit! =8- O ).

I remember that Memorex CEs and IBM CEs wore suits, often 3-piece, even when dragging cables through the subfloor. I think ATT's dress code for salesmen at one time even included a hat (as well as the white shirts, etc.)! A friend who had a brother-in-law with the FBI told me that only after Hoover died could they wear a non-white shirt, but even then it had to be a very, very, very pale blue and possibly the equivalent in yellow, although that's probably been relaxed a bit in the intervening years.

As I said before, I've reverted to a suit and tie except on Casual Friday since I have more interaction with contractors and other employees than I did before. It really isn't burdensome (hey, I had to wear a tie in grade school and a blazer and tie in high school). I rotate through my collection of ties, but on alternate Mondays, when new employee orientation takes place, I wear my tie with Stars and Stripes, an Eagle, and the logo, "One Nation Under God." Patriotism seems appropriate to me at least once every two weeks in a Government job. :- ) (I wear the 30-year service pin they gave me 7 years ago on my lapel instead of a flag pin.)

I agree - that's definitely 'Shopped. That said, it's still pretty funny, and I really wouldn't want to see that in any setting, whether at the office or on the street.

instead of that FA, it would be a beautiful Blondie with the same clothes?

Either would distract me from my work. Only the reason for the distraction would be different.

Particularly since those same clothes on a beautiful blonde would be falling off of her...

I laughed for a while on this one. Just another example of some of the things I love about TR.

SmartAce tips his hat.

I cleared your -1!

nt

o_0

Not too casual! Just plain WRONG!

One day, our old-school, stereotypical old man, 3-piece executive, CEO was giving some new clients a tour of our offices, when one of our new-hires came bouncing down the hall: Hip-huggers, flip-flops, tight shirt, her belly button showing (piercing unconfirmed).

Yeah. Maybe if this had been on a Friday. Or, maybe if the clients hadn't made a comment about it. Or, maybe if this young Miss was the only stand-out (she had plenty of company).

Usually, executive mandates are sent via HR, who reword them to convey messages softly and without emotion. But not this one! Bossman made it clear: If your are in HIS building, on HIS payroll, doing work for HIS company, you will dress appropriately, regardless of the job or the position. Violations called for corrective action against the violator AND the immediate supervisor, effective the begining of the next month.

Well, at least we can take our jackets off once we reach our desks, but we have wear them to all meetings and on end-user site calls. And you can never have your tie loosened. Ladies can wear tennis shoes only when they are health-walking, and no sandals, Crocs, flip-flops, or shoes with exposed heels (we had a lady fall from running in slide-on shoes).

I don't know, but it beats the first alternative--UNIFORMS, and the second alternative--Find a new job.

"Well, at least we can take our jackets off once we reach our desks, but we have wear them to all meetings and on end-user site calls."

I know one contractor in Northern Virginia that works for us that lets employees be causal at their desks, but for all client meetings at the office and at a client site they are required to wear a suit and tie. They have a locker room at the office where you can change into a suit when a client arrives for a meeting; clients never visit the back office, only the area where the meeting rooms are.

Oh! Tha's nasteh...

To me it lets down your professional ethics, in a small office it may work but in a larger company it can get down right scary. Male/Female casual is always an issue - business casual to a man means dockers and a nice shirt to a female its sandals(flip flops) and capri pants where is the parallel.

I may have a different perspective on the male/female definition. Being one of the first professional women in my area- I'm an engineer that has done a lot of different things in my lifetime including laying ethernet cable under a flat floor and stringing cable through cable trays and underground tunnels down to building up pc boards. If the women in your environment are dressing more casually then the men are then that image can reflect badly on every female. So women, think of your gender before you decide to dress badly in the workplace.

I was raised to understand your appearence reflects the amount of respect you are showing for the situation. I don't understand people wearing shorts and t-shirts to church and to court.

Most companies have some sort of dress code. While I resent the EDS and Booz-Allen requirement for shirts and ties every day, I am also opposed to allowing cut-off shorts and a halter top. We once had a woman come to work once with one of those tops that appeared to be a bib tied around her neck, barely covering her breasts. Next day there was a memo to everyone reiterating the company dress code. People need to understand you are here to work, not to flirt.

Our dress code requires us to wear at least a polo shirt and jeans with non-flashy atheletic shoes when we are working on the client site because it reflects on how the company is perceived. If you are working in the company offices you can wear a "good" t-shirt (no rips and tears, no tasteless sayings), except when there is a meeting with clients or prospective clients. Then those not in the meeting dress like those working the client site and those in the meeting wear suites and ties or their equivlent.

On the other hand when working from home, I see nothing wrong with working in your pajamas.

I also know I would never hire a person who came to an interview in t-shirt and shorts. Other down checks would be dread locks, mohawks, nose rings, or glaringly obvious tatoos. If you don't respect me enough to dress properly for an interview than I don't respect you enough to hire you.

How on earth having a tattoo or dreadlocks or a nose ring can be a disrespect to YOU. Those a personal decisions that don't affect you in anyway. How would it look to say I don't hire blacks or chineses or indians or jews on the same grounds? You may say it is not the same, but it is... prejudice.

the great thing about not hiring blacks/chinese/indians/jews/casual dressers when the talent pool is limited is that that leaves them for the competition, and you have to pay more for the fewer that you are willing to look at.

But when someone is unwilling to meet minimum standards? (I'm not talking about dreadlocks here.) One cow-orker said, "You bathe too much in America. That's not our culture." Instead he left a swath of cologne in his wake that literally left people gagging. (I heard that he had changed at his next job, so maybe it was a sign that he was really unhappy.)

I believe that a good deal of the problem is that, in large companies, there is a Human Resources department that sees a need to have Rules to eliminate Problems. So if someone works in a place where they need closed-toed shoes to (help) prevent injuries, and other employees _might_ wander through the area, therefore _all_ employees must wear closed-toed shoes. (Well, all employees _could_ get a paper cut on their toe, or open a door onto an unprotected toe, so it's a safety issue all around.) And a customer, or client, or banker, or someone _might_ walk through the offices, so everyone _must_ _look_ professional. So much of the problem is mindless rules, which is seen by many people as needless.

Of course, the response does seem in many cases to be mindless rulebreaking. WTF? What does that prove? You're exactly as smart as the HR morons? Big deal.

BTW, I discovered early in my career that I had the opposite problem. I had to tone down my dressing. If I dressed in a 3-piece suit, no one would talk to me (although they would answer my memos, probably because they couldn't see me). I had to ditch the vest and loosen the tie (I worked for an insurance company, I couldn't dress "casual") in order to get people to open up to me.

as an electronics technician in a two-way radio shop, i found that OSHA required us to wear steel-toed shoes, eye protection and hardhats. I operated the sound system in the city's council chambers and showed movies at the museum of art thus attired. Understandably. i was embarrassed to show up for the functiond looking like i was ready to enter a coal mine. It did harm to us as we tried to present ourselves as competent tecnical staff rather than trash collectors.
we went to a number of sympathetic suprvisors and managers, even the personnel board, the all quoted the OHSA regulations.
one by one we rebelled aginst the rules by losing the shoes, hardhats, etc. until we were wearing decent street clothes. Supervisors turned a blind eye to this, as did the managers all the way up to the Mayor himself.
OSHA never came back and we set up our own safety rules.
Now we dress appropriately casual, but not "dressy", that would not be appropriate for our job responsibilities.

I personally like lots of pockets...it's convenient and made me a more efficient worker.

First off I resent your comment because I myself am black, and their race or culture is not the issue. As far as dreadlocks being part of black culture that is nonsense. Dread locks did not even exist anywhere except Jamaica until the 1980's. In the 1970's the style was the Afro. In the 1950's and early 60s it was the Process. These things are merely a fad not cultural. Would you hire some of British descent ifthey came to an interview wearing a codpiece or dressed like Sir Walter Ralegh? If on the other hand you came to an interview wearing traditional African formal tribal outfit, or the more pertinent today an aba or a yarmulke that would be a different story.

My mother, also black, stated that the way you present yourself to others shows the amount of respect you have for them. If when you come in looking like the wild man from Borneo, who could not be bothered to get a hair cut, clean your self up and put on some decent clothes, you are saying I really don't care who you are, I am going to so things my own way. That means that you are not a team player and I don't want you in my business.

My mom also stated that when people disfigure their bodies they are showing a lack of class and good upbringing. She also had a number of comments to make about such people that I consider offensive. I do not wold such rigid, reactionary, opinions but I do feel that such ornamentation has its place and time. Would you wear a Beach Boys t-shirt and shorts to church? That is showing disrespect to the congregation, the minister, and God. Yet there is nothing wrong with wearing that on a date, or to go out to dinner, (despite the opinion of some restaurants that require a jacket and tie to enter).

My brother failed to learn this lesson. So despite a MCS and 25 years in the business, he has been out of work for three years, despite dozens of interviews.

Would you wear a Beach Boys t-shirt and shorts to church?

Venice Beach? Yes. Valdosta? Not a chance.

Just because you were raised in a particular way doesn't mean it's an accurate description of reality. The way one dresses has nothing to do with how seriously one takes things. How seriously a person takes something can only be known by that individual. There is no way for you to know this with any real accuracy and so it is not appropriate to assume you do or to use it as a basis for your actions.

You were raised to believe something that simply isn't true.

"How seriously a person takes something can only be known by that individual."
Actually, we, being humans, give off certain clues about how seriously we take something. The way we dress and groom ourselves fall into that category, as is how we choose to present our selves (bodies). Most human cultures include these visual cues. You are human, you work for humans, and you work with humans. There is some variation in how rigid one has to be with this sort of thing, but just to pretend that it doesn't exist only keeps you unemployed longer.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/gallery-e6frg6so-1226433637319?page=3