Discussion on:

Why Windows 8 has businesses in stitches

If touch screens were going to complete wipe out keyboards, they would have done so already.

Anyone who does data entry or programming for a living can tell you that there is no substitute for a good, responsive physical keyboard. Even with the best of voice and touchscreen technology, you would have a hard time entering a term paper's worth of typing accurately and within the same amount of time.

Microsoft was foolish to try to force the same UI onto PCs, tablets, and phones. The three form factors each have very different use cases.

with so many games now played on-line with a Windows based program on the gamer's PC I can see that many games makers will now have to switch to Unix or Linux due to Microsoft pushing so hard to have EVERYTHING through a touch screen interface like Metro. I just can't see any decent game working through the Metro interface, and with the mouse and keyboard response of Win 8 so slow, the gamers are NOT going to like it at all. Win 8 and Metro may be just the thing to push all the games and gamers away from Windows.

Eh?

Can you source that, it sounds like an interesting read.

system, and I've seen similar comments by others here on TR as well. Usually when typing the letter show as you hit the keys, but in the RC copy of Win 8 he tried out there was a small, but noticeable, delay usually a keystroke or two delay - and he isn't a speed typist. The same with the mouse movements,except when they were real small. It was this way for both of us when we tried it.

I am running Windows 8 on a cheap Dell i3 based laptop. I haven't noticed any delays or slowness.

But then again, I'm also not having the tremendous difficulty using the Windows 8 with a keyboard and mouse, like so many others seem to have. So, maybe it's just me...

Rick

marketing display and not normal retail sale.

The biggest issue for many I've spoken to has been the fact they have to relearn how things are done, they don't like having to lose productivity due to people learning how to just open the PC and access the applications.

As I said in another post, the big thing is the familiarity of use and ability to do things the way they're used to, that's what the average user wants and demands. Who ever can meet that need will get their business first.

I guess you must be a little confused... there are no versions of Windows 8 avaiable for retail sale yet. The only version of Win 8 I have access to is the same one everybody can download from MS. It's the "Release Preview" or "Consumer Preview" or whatever they call it.

As I have commented elsewhere, the new Start Screen is just a slightly different approach to the old Start Menu. Instead of pinning applications to your Start Menu, or putting shortcuts on your desktop, you just pin your favorite apps to the Start Screen, and off you go.

While Win 8 is different from 7, it's not as drastic a change as some people try to make it out ot be. I'm not sure what is wrong with people who think they have to "relearn how things are done," as if it is a tremendously difficult task to figure out that the Start Screen is just a fancier version of the old Start Menu.

Rick

I haven't had any issues with Windows 8 typing. And the idea that gaming won't work on Metro is insane. Armed! is a great example of gaming in Metro and really, the Metro launcher is more than suitable for most gaming as most gamers run their sessions full screen. The two actually go together more than the desktop + gaming as windowed gamers are in the minority.

Wouldn't the Win8 Metro be best for games? Games would play just as they do on an iPad - tilt, drag, pushing onscreen buttons, etc. Since it's Windows you can have two or more games running so you don't have to stop one game to play another.

big games that the gamers play like World of Warcraft etc.

When current games run, they don't consume all resources. You can alt-tab out of most, system services continue to run in the background along with music apps and web browsers. Windows always has been a multi-tasking system. Metro really is no different but the only issue I'm not sure of is the nature of Metro applications when they no longer have the foreground. Obviously, Metro allows some apps to run in the background...apps like Mail, Music, etc seem to run in the background without issue so I'm assuming that current games if built on Metro would enjoy the same benefits. As long as the correct API's are exposed, anyone of the major developers can rewrite their games as Metro 'apps' however I don't think they will as the only way to distribute Metro 'apps' is via the Microsoft Store and I doubt companies like EA or Valve will want to split the profits when their own custom systems (Steam, Origin) run on the desktop's of the same machines they're targeting (outside of Metro). My main point was that Metro is full screen as are most of the major 'desktop' games so launching traditional full screen desktop games from Metro 'works' from a usability perspective.

I've running the trial of Office 2013 on my Windows 7 laptop and the same issue is sometimes apparent: a noticeable delay when typing, it seems to be worst in Outlook. Also the Metro style of the new Office isn't attractive, it's washed out with a 'grey-on-white' kind of look. I'm pretty sure Microsoft have cocked up their new UI big time,

just right. Most mobile devices need to have a much brighter GUI so that it's easier to make things out while open on a bright sunny day; otherwise the sun may wash it out too much.

Are you trying it out via a Virtual Machine? That would cause a delay with input devices.

nt

Oh yeah, that's for sure going to happen. 2013, the year of Linux! Don't count on it. Why would developers who count on big sales numbers move to developing on a platform that almost nobody uses? Dream on.

and many are also available as Linux or Windows client games. Also, if the user client doesn't work well in Win 8, they may just move over to keep it simple.

Designing the management and control systems for use in Linux is one thing. Redesigning your rendering routines that have been designed for use with DirectX for use with Linux is completely different. Besides, the market is much smaller so the first companies that come out with major titles (like Valve with L4D2) might be encouraged by the uptake of the minority community but I'm pretty sure all of the other major studios will be much more hesitant as it's probably not a very safe investment at this point.

My thinking is that Windows 8 is not to be replacing Windows 7; I think it is more of a stab at the tablet market. Windows 8 would not be fit for purpose to install on all of your current business PC's, as a support guy I would strongly advise against it! However I think it would be much more beneficial on an arm or intel based tablet around the home. I think it could even be handy in a workplace for managers/IT department. The metro interface would be great for monitoring servers on the go as it will intergrate with all the current Microsoft technologies (SQL, SharePoint etc) whilst sending those all important business emails! I guess the only thing we can do is wait and see.

If you think about what we use PC's for these days you might notice that we are leaning towards tablet PC's and Microsoft has picked up on this. If they are not careful they could blow themselves out of the market entirely whilst Apple takes over with the iPad, with Android slowly catching up. Microsoft can see market trends and this could also be a big factor in their move to touch screen interfaces. Never before have mobile platforms had such weight in the market and this is Microsoft's addition to the table.

I may be wrong but it seems to make sense to me!

nt

I do think that MS wants Win 8 to replace Win 7. Evidence of that will be that it is the standard OS on all new computers. But I'll definitely agree that it is a bold move toward the tablet and other touch interface devices.

I've been using the most recent trial version of Win 8 and it appears to be good and solid, but the metro interface just doesn't lend itself to normal desktop usage. A fear of mine would be adding a touch sensitive monitor to the desktop. Personally I sit a couple feet back from my dual monitors. Having to reach up to tactically move objects around or pull down menus just isn't going to work. I also am concerned about what kind of ergonomic issues this will create. We've already got problems with carpal tunnel from keyboard and mouse use (I use a natural 'bent' keyboard and Logitech marble mouse because of this) and the reaching and stretching is likely to cause problems we haven't even seen yet.

If you use Google Maps without a touchscreen you're ready for Windows 8. Everyone using GMaps clicks and holds and drags and pans and zooms with their mouse already. The Metro UI will be the same. No need to have a touchscreen. Though I can imagine new LCDs with Kinect tech built into them. So you can do basic hand gestures to get around apps that take advantage of that.

You are exactly right in your analysis. It is so easy to click and drag with your mouse. It's something every Windows user has been doing for years. The idea of tapping on icon with your finger on a touch screen is EXACTLY the same idea as clicking on an icon with your mouse. The idea of touching an object on your touch screen and dragging it with your finger is EXACTLY the same idea as clicking on an object with your mouse and dragging it by moving your mouse.

I just can't understand why this is so confusing for so many people - especially for people who are supposedly "IT Pros" and who would presumably have some degree of technical understanding and expertise.

The more time I spend in these forums, the more I am coming to believe that what it's really all about is that there are a group of "IT Pros" in the world who would rather spend 10 hours a day posting comments in forums about how much they hate everything new and how hard it is to learn anything new, rather than spend a few hours a day actually trying to learn something new.

Rick

and the only change was the addition of touch capability, I'd agree with you. But that's not the biggest change. The alternate 'classic desktop' mostly looks like W7 but Metro is the default interface and cannot be disabled. The Metro interface looks and acts nothing like W7, introducing hot spots and hidden menus, These have not been present in previous versions, and their use will confuse rank and file users. It's those users who will have learning difficulties, not 'IT Pros', especially when there's no apparent benefit to them doing so.

"Extremely important menus in Windows 8 are hidden off screen, easily brought in when using a touch and swiping with your thumbs, are absent when using a mouse, he said."

Let's see, hit Windows key on keyboard, click on appropriate tile- no touch or swiping. At least that is how I've been running it on my netbook for 9 months. Just set up the first set of tiles: Desktop, Windows Explorer, Internet Explorer, and the top 9 applications used by that person.

Hit Windows key, type first few letters of what you want and then click on it works well also. Just because older versions of Windows did not have a truly usable search doesn't mean that Windows can never have excellent search.

this is very true for a lot of the smaller keyboards many people use to save space on their desk.

You are probably still using the same keyboard you've had since 1993. The vast majority of keyboards in that last 15 years or so have had Windows keys on them.

Anyway, pressing Ctrl-Esc has the same effect as pressing the Windows key, if you are stuck with a keyboard that doesn't have an actual Windows key.

Rick

footprint keyboard without the extraneous keys for the number pad or multi-media stuff and the like. It's made to reduce space on your desk and very useful for someone like me who does a hell of a lot of typing without the need to enter whole swags of numbers or constantly adjust their media output.

associated with buying such an uncommon keyboard

keyboard and my hands on the desk is so small that a standard 101 or 104 keyboard with multimedia keys (what most are selling now, would mean I don't even get to rest my wrists on the desk and if I put a larger desk in I can't walk around it due to the room size and other stuff needed in the room. This 10 inch by 5 inch keyboard is just ideal and I get them for less than buying a bloody 101 or 104 keyboard.

I know of a dozen others who've bought the same keyboard for their own use on bigger desks as they find the 101 and 104 keyboard a huge space waster.

I find it strange that he doesn't name this keyboard by brand. Every 101-, 104-, and 94-key keyboard has a Windows Key. Except those made for Macs, and the rare Linux keyboards.

nearly all the latest ones do. However, the keyboard does not have a brand name on it and it comes from China, no model number either.

These *are* the original PC-AT and PS/2 keyboards sans windows keys; The 104 key keyboards generally have all the keys of a 101 with 2 "windows" keys and one "right-click" key added. No, I don't use these keyboards either, and yes, my *newest* keyboard was built in 1994.

Over and above the tactile feedback (very important if you type over 100wpm) that you don't receive on a newer keyboard, they are also heavy enough to defend a small country with one if necessary and generally work forever... and if they don't, you can actually *fix them.* - I just refurbished 3 over the weekend, and I have 3-4 to go. (2 of which worked fine but were just grungy, the 3rd was starting to have intermittent connection problems that I had to clean up.)

I have several cow-orkers that used to pick on me about my keyboard until I threatened to *hit them* with it - and demonstrated that it would continue to function afterwards. Now they just leave me alone... just the way I like it!

BTW, if the new keyboards are "so much better" why are the old style keyboards still being made?
http://www.pckeyboard.com/
And there's a big 2nd hand market:
http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm

Laterz!

Ctrl-Esc has the same effect as pressing the Windows Key. So you can still accomplish the same thing on your oddball keyboard.

Rick

simply to do what I can currently do with a single mouse click?

In short the problem is: the basic idea behind an operating system is to enhance the user experience and make it EASIER and quicker for them to find what they want to use and interface between the apps and the hardware. When a change requires the user to unlearn a decade of use and learn totally new things that take more work, that is NOT an improvement.

The neat thing is I do NOT have to just accept what Microsoft wish top push at us as part of their attempts to force total vendor lock in and a permanent pathway to my wallet, so I don't, nor should anyone else be forced to via marketing gurus.

...but why should I learn the command Ctrl-Esc? I mean if I learned Ctrl-Esc it might push out another command from my mind. For Who's sake, Ctrl-Esc is so hard to remember! You can't make me learn Ctrl-Esc, I won't let you. I won't let you make me learn Ctrl-Esc!!"

"Anyways, I use Linux... I just came here to get attention I lost when everyone started buying keyboards with Windows keys on 'em."

From your various comments throughout these forums, you've made it quite clear that you are bound and determined to stay in the past, and you steadfastly refuse to learn anything new under any circumstance. You will make any excuse possible to avoid something new.

The WIndows Vista/7 interface greatly enhances the User Experience and makes it WAY EASIER and WAY QUICKER for users to find what they want to use and interface between the apps and the hardware.

The Windows 8 interface takes things a step further towards EASY and CONVENIENT. It does not require unlearning anything, nor does it require learning totally new things that take more work.

The only thing you got right in your comments is that you do NOT have to accept what Microsoft is pushing and you are not forced to do anything. You are quite welcome to stay in the 1980s. The world is full of young people who like to get jobs in IT, and you certainly put them at an advantage by steadfastly refusing to keep your skills up-to-date.

Rick

I love it! Great comment!

Rick

"The Windows 8 interface takes things a step further towards EASY and CONVENIENT. It does not require unlearning anything, nor does it require learning totally new things that take more work."

It requires unlearning the now-absent Start button. It requires learning where those functions that used to be on the Start button have been moved to. It requires learning hot spots, hidden menus, and other interface features that weren't present in previous versions. It requires learning new methods of closing some apps and of shutting the computer off. It requires learning to manage screen real estate differently for new apps can't be resized or tiled to make more than two visible, apps that don't have the accustomed Minimize, Maximize, or Close buttons, or size-adjusting frames.

Again, these won't be as much of a problem for IT workers as for day-to-day computer users. And there's a difference between knowing something in your head and retraining your reflexes. I've been running W7 for a couple of years, but when I want to log off or reboot, I still aim for the Shutdown button and not the little triangle beside it. I -know- that in W7 the Shutdown button does a complete shutdown without going to the menu first, but years of XP habit have me aiming for the much larger target I've been indoctrinated to use. It doesn't help that the majority of machines I support are still XP systems, and that rebooting multiple XP systems throughout the day reinforces the old behavior more than the less frequent W7 reboots I perform.

you already know in a different way is because it provides a higher productivity return, but if it doesn't do that it isn't worth the effort. In this case their is not a sufficient higher productivity return to justify it. W8 is for a touch screen device and not suited to a non-touch screen device. I've a lot of perfectly good monitors and not one is a touch screen monitor, nor do I intend to buy a touch screen monitor any time in the next few years, and I'm not the only one like this.

Mind you, learning something new that you don't already know is a totally different proposition to the above.

From an old PS2. It still clicks away, and works fine. Try more like 1989-91 timeframe. I Never saw the need for the Windows key myself.

My HP DEC's small wireless keyboard from 2004 has a Windows Key. My Compaq Pentium box has a full keyboard with Windows Key. Howabout "Ernest Buys A Keyboard" for a sequel?

You hear that, Verne? Buddy's got a really old keyboard.

two are unbranded ones from China that are 10 inches by 5 inches and use USB; two are Best Pur brand ultra slim 9.5 inches x 3.5 inches and uses Bluetooth. I also have several 101 keyboards that are too big, and one of those is an IPC brand with no Windows key either, it's PS2.

So not all keyboards have a Windows key, or need one. The one I have is best for my situation due to space shortage.

...that are older than you are, Vern." I get it, you're starving for attention.

will remove that itch.

I've been using Windows 8 on a cheap Dell i3-based laptop and I have found it very easy to use. All these people who are claiming that the "Metro interface is being forced upon everyone" and claiming that Metro is so difficult to use on a non-touch screen device are the same clowns who always complain about every interface change in every MS product. I don't know if they are just incapable of learning to take advantage of something new, or if they just can't tolerate any change at all to their daily routine, or maybe they just like to whine and complain for the sake of hearing themselves whine and complain.

Anyway, it is refreshing to see an occasional post in these forums from someone who is actually willing to try something new.

Rick

It doesn't respond to the habits and practices that MS has spend a couple of decades ingraining in me. Yes, I could learn the new methods, but at this time I don't see any benefits gained in exchange for the investment of learning them. For this desktop user and the corporate users i support, there are no applications or peripherals in the pipeline that are worth the transition at this time.